336 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

How childlike naive the templar supporters are is once again apparent. I doesnt matter if they are heretics its how the chantry will portray them. And the chantry will portray them as heretics.

IRL our own templar order was wiped out because the pope said: they be heretics. While their was no proof what so ever. The templars betrayal of the chantry will give them a very bad rep.

Oh? Can you tell the future now? Because telling us what the Chantry WILL do is basicly bollocks.

No, there was betrayl but the templars weren't the one doing it.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

How childlike naive the templar supporters are is once again apparent. I doesnt matter if they are heretics its how the chantry will portray them. And the chantry will portray them as heretics.

IRL our own templar order was wiped out because the pope said: they be heretics. While their was no proof what so ever. The templars betrayal of the chantry will give them a very bad rep.

Oh? Can you tell the future now? Because telling us what the Chantry WILL do is basicly bollocks.

No, there was betrayl but the templars weren't the one doing it.

Once again looking only at 2 factions have blinded you. Do you think that the nobility and the empress like it that a mage-templar war rages in their backyard? Cassandra has already pointed out that the the relations between the chantry and the empress is at a breaking point. If the chantry does not publicy condone the templars they may as well slit their throats before the chevaliers do it for them. You may not see it as betrayal but if the divine shows
the letter Lambert wrote ( what a stupid bastard) to her the empress will consider the templars to be traitors.

Once again it doesnt matter what is the thruth but what people believe.

Fiona explains her reason for returning to the Circle and trying to
help her people: "I came to the Circle from the Grey Wardens because I
saw something had to be done. In the Wardens, we learn to watch for our
moment and seize it - and that moment is now."

Dont take everything at face value lob

13th century Europe also didn't have mages to deal with. Also, the reason for the charges was their vast wealth.

The Chantry gains nothing from warring with the Templars.
They loose their military might, they loose resources, they loose their weapon against mages.

Mind
you, the templars aren't hostile to the Chantry - they just parted ways
because of what Justinia did, and they are full in the right for doing
so. Justina was actively sabotaging them.

What the templars believe is not important even if they are correct. Their actions will be viewed as treason. And justina has very good reasons now to bring the templars to heel because she will either wind up death or imprisoned.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 28 mai 2013 - 10:16 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

And it also doesn't matter what you belive someone will do, it's not proof of anything.
Some MAY do something. But it depends. It is a possiblity.


Chantry may as well slit their throats? Really? Waht kind of reasoning you are operating on? That Orlais will wage war on the Chantry is the the Chantry doesnt' attack the templars?
Becuase the cure to war is even more war and making more enemies?

No, there is no reason for the Chantry to go agaisnt the Templars really. It can buy it's time and try to smooth things over. Potentially assasiante Lambert if he's too stubborn.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And it also doesn't matter what you belive someone will do, it's not proof of anything.
Some MAY do something. But it depends. It is a possiblity.


Chantry may as well slit their throats? Really? Waht kind of reasoning you are operating on? That Orlais will wage war on the Chantry is the the Chantry doesnt' attack the templars?
Becuase the cure to war is even more war and making more enemies?

No, there is no reason for the Chantry to go agaisnt the Templars really. It can buy it's time and try to smooth things over. Potentially assasiante Lambert if he's too stubborn.

You dont seem to understand that the Empire is going to blame the Chantry for mage-templar war. And they are responsible for the mage templar war as the mages and templars are their responsibility . When the empress return to the capital she is going to have some very serious for the divine. The divine has 3 choices at this point : support the templars / try to broker peace / condemn the templars. Supporting the templars is political suicide.
The other 2 options will still state that the templar have gone rogue.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Orlesian Empire is already suffering from a civil war, they don't have time or the capability to fight a continent spanning war with the Chantry either. Nor will they care anyway, since the Chantry has essentially lost all its direct influence, without the Templars.

And to broker peace will not mean the Templars have "gone rogue". It simply means that the Chantry will try to broker peace. The Templars have not "gone rogue", since them leaving the Chantry was a fully legal action on their part.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 28 mai 2013 - 10:44 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
You dont seem to understand that the Empire is going to blame the Chantry for mage-templar war. And they are responsible for the mage templar war as the mages and templars are their responsibility . When the empress return to the capital she is going to have some very serious for the divine. The divine has 3 choices at this point : support the templars / try to broker peace / condemn the templars. Supporting the templars is political suicide.
The other 2 options will still state that the templar have gone rogue.

Will they?
Templars are a separate institution technicly. They left and are autonomous. Why would the empire blame the Chantry - especially ifhte cna legally leave? Why not blame the mages?

So no.
Supporting the templars is not politiacal suicide - Orlais turning against the Chantry is. There's no way Orlais can do that - Celene's position is already unstable and a full blown civil war (as Chantry devoted would NOT look kindly upon that) is definatly undesirable. What about all the neighbouring Andrastian nations?

[Ausstig]

IanPolaris wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

The question is - are the Templars anything like a real knightly order?

If so - they've got boatloads of resources. It was still stupid to tell the Chantry to ****** off - but not suicide (well, it was - but not immediate, easily induced, suicide)

Not unstoppable to be sure - but certainly far exceeding that of a few socially retarded mages who've been locked in towers since they were eight. ((That the mages are not represented in the same vain as socially maladjusted academics is a pity and not at all playing to their proposed imprisonment.))

IRL there was a religious order of knighthood that ran afoul the Catholic Church, and they did control almost all the banking in Europe and had loads of resources.  They were the Knights Templar.

That didn't save them when the Pope declared them to be Heretical (for what really amounted to trumped up Heresy charges) and it didn't stop the Church and other nations from seizing their property or putting their members to the torch.

I am very sure that the Templars in Thedas had far less indepedance and resources than the real Knight Templar of the 13th century.

-Polaris

That was mostly the King of France, who owed the Templars aa lot of money. He killed the last Pope for refusing to destory them and his troops arrested most of the Templars, other nations didn't really care. The reason that the Pope signed off on it was because he was the only one with the power to destory them.

There were other orders as well the Knights Hospitallers, who ended up on Malta and only disbanded the 1798 when Napoleon invaded.

There was also the Teutonic Knights, who founded Prussia.

So they may have more recources then you assume

[DKJaigen]

Ausstig wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

The question is - are the Templars anything like a real knightly order?

If so - they've got boatloads of resources. It was still stupid to tell the Chantry to ****** off - but not suicide (well, it was - but not immediate, easily induced, suicide)

Not unstoppable to be sure - but certainly far exceeding that of a few socially retarded mages who've been locked in towers since they were eight. ((That the mages are not represented in the same vain as socially maladjusted academics is a pity and not at all playing to their proposed imprisonment.))

IRL there was a religious order of knighthood that ran afoul the Catholic Church, and they did control almost all the banking in Europe and had loads of resources.  They were the Knights Templar.

That didn't save them when the Pope declared them to be Heretical (for what really amounted to trumped up Heresy charges) and it didn't stop the Church and other nations from seizing their property or putting their members to the torch.

I am very sure that the Templars in Thedas had far less indepedance and resources than the real Knight Templar of the 13th century.

-Polaris

That was mostly the King of France, who owed the Templars aa lot of money. He killed the last Pope for refusing to destory them and his troops arrested most of the Templars, other nations didn't really care. The reason that the Pope signed off on it was because he was the only one with the power to destory them.

There were other orders as well the Knights Hospitallers, who ended up on Malta and only disbanded the 1798 when Napoleon invaded.

There was also the Teutonic Knights, who founded Prussia.

So they may have more recources then you assume

Correct but both templar order and teutonic order are clear cases that

1: you need good PR
2: pissing of the country that supports you is never a good idea.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Orlesian Empire is already suffering from a civil war, they don't have time or the capability to fight a continent spanning war with the Chantry either. Nor will they care anyway, since the Chantry has essentially lost all its direct influence, without the Templars.

And to broker peace will not mean the Templars have "gone rogue". It simply means that the Chantry will try to broker peace. The Templars have not "gone rogue", since them leaving the Chantry was a fully legal action on their part.

I think the Orlesians do care since that war is fought on Orlesian soil. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

If the Templars have fortresses around Thedas, they most certainly have more resources than the consensus seems to be. If they have fortresses they will most certainly have serfs, which would supply them with both provisions and taxes. So the Templars are probably more or less self-sustaine.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Orlesian Empire is already suffering from a civil war, they don't have time or the capability to fight a continent spanning war with the Chantry either. Nor will they care anyway, since the Chantry has essentially lost all its direct influence, without the Templars.

And to broker peace will not mean the Templars have "gone rogue". It simply means that the Chantry will try to broker peace. The Templars have not "gone rogue", since them leaving the Chantry was a fully legal action on their part.

I think the Orlesians do care since that war is fought on Orlesian soil. 

As of right now, there havn't even been any battles fought yet, and the mages are holed up in a Nevarran town...
And as I said the Orlesians don't have time to care, since they are already embroiled in a civil war.

[azarhal]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Oh? Can you tell the future now? Because telling us what the Chantry WILL do is basicly bollocks.

No, there was betrayl but the templars weren't the one doing it.

Varric told us the "future" in DA2:  the Templars have rebelled against the Chantry. That's the public point-of-view on the matter in 9:40.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Templars are a
separate institution technicly. They left and are autonomous. Why would
the empire blame the Chantry - especially ifhte cna legally leave? Why
not blame the mages?

So no.
Supporting the templars is not
politiacal suicide - Orlais turning against the Chantry is. There's no
way Orlais can do that - Celene's position is already unstable and a
full blown civil war (as Chantry devoted would NOT look kindly upon
that) is definatly undesirable. What about all the neighbouring
Andrastian nations?

The Templars are not a separate institution from the Chantry. They were created after the Nevarran Accord for the Chantry and by the Chantry to server as their armed branch. They did not exist before that, only the Seeker of Truth did. They aren't autonomous either, they have no lands, no possession and no titles beside the Chantry related ones.

As for the neighbouring Andrastian nations. Do you really believe that Nevarra (the place where the Templar vs Mages showdown is going to happen, i.e. Andoral's Reach is in Nevarra or awefully close to its border), will let Templars dictate what mages are supposed to be doing when the country is the most "pro-mages" after Tevinter?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the Templars have fortresses
around Thedas, they most certainly have more resources than the
consensus seems to be. If they have fortresses they will most certainly
have serfs, which would supply them with both provisions and taxes. So
the Templars are probably more or less self-sustaine.

The Templars don't have fortresses. They live in Chantry's owned buildings all their lives or  in the Circles's building with the Mages.

Modifié par azarhal, 28 mai 2013 - 12:09 .

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
You dont seem to understand that the Empire is going to blame the Chantry for mage-templar war. And they are responsible for the mage templar war as the mages and templars are their responsibility . When the empress return to the capital she is going to have some very serious for the divine. The divine has 3 choices at this point : support the templars / try to broker peace / condemn the templars. Supporting the templars is political suicide.
The other 2 options will still state that the templar have gone rogue.

Will they?
Templars are a separate institution technicly. They left and are autonomous. Why would the empire blame the Chantry - especially ifhte cna legally leave? Why not blame the mages?

So no.
Supporting the templars is not politiacal suicide - Orlais turning against the Chantry is. There's no way Orlais can do that - Celene's position is already unstable and a full blown civil war (as Chantry devoted would NOT look kindly upon that) is definatly undesirable. What about all the neighbouring Andrastian nations?

Who cares because this is not going to happen anyway. The chantry right now would benefit from the destruction of the templars and creating the next generation of templars under stricter chantry control.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Orlesian Empire is already suffering from a civil war, they don't have time or the capability to fight a continent spanning war with the Chantry either. Nor will they care anyway, since the Chantry has essentially lost all its direct influence, without the Templars.

And to broker peace will not mean the Templars have "gone rogue". It simply means that the Chantry will try to broker peace. The Templars have not "gone rogue", since them leaving the Chantry was a fully legal action on their part.

I think the Orlesians do care since that war is fought on Orlesian soil. 

As of right now, there havn't even been any battles fought yet, and the mages are holed up in a Nevarran town...
And as I said the Orlesians don't have time to care, since they are already embroiled in a civil war.

The Empress could have used those mages in the civil war and i doubt she is happy about the situation Considering that varric says that mages set the world on fire their is no doubt there is wide spread devastation.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Orlesian Empire is already suffering from a civil war, they don't have time or the capability to fight a continent spanning war with the Chantry either. Nor will they care anyway, since the Chantry has essentially lost all its direct influence, without the Templars.

And to broker peace will not mean the Templars have "gone rogue". It simply means that the Chantry will try to broker peace. The Templars have not "gone rogue", since them leaving the Chantry was a fully legal action on their part.

I think the Orlesians do care since that war is fought on Orlesian soil. 

As of right now, there havn't even been any battles fought yet, and the mages are holed up in a Nevarran town...
And as I said the Orlesians don't have time to care, since they are already embroiled in a civil war.

The Empress could have used those mages in the civil war and i doubt she is happy about the situation Considering that varric says that mages set the world on fire their is no doubt there is wide spread devastation.

Mages have not been used in any previous inter-human conflict, I doubt the Orlesian civil war would be the first to break that trend, because that would destroy the Chantry's neutrality.

[EmperorSahlertz]

azarhal wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the Templars have fortresses
around Thedas, they most certainly have more resources than the
consensus seems to be. If they have fortresses they will most certainly
have serfs, which would supply them with both provisions and taxes. So
the Templars are probably more or less self-sustaine.

The Templars don't have fortresses. They live in Chantry's owned buildings all their lives or  in the Circles's building with the Mages.

You base your statement off of what? We know that the Templars lived in the Circles along with the mages. These are basically fortresses, and they would also have their own serfs, which would supply each individual Circle with supplies.
It stands to reason that the Templars have strongholds throughout Thedas, sicne they are a knightly order. Some Templars are stationed in Chantries sure, and they might recieve their trainning, or at least initial trainning, in Chantries. But we simply do not have enough available data, to flat out state that the Templars does not have any fortresses of their own, especially since it would stand to reason that they did.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

azarhal wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the Templars have fortresses
around Thedas, they most certainly have more resources than the
consensus seems to be. If they have fortresses they will most certainly
have serfs, which would supply them with both provisions and taxes. So
the Templars are probably more or less self-sustaine.

The Templars don't have fortresses. They live in Chantry's owned buildings all their lives or  in the Circles's building with the Mages.

You base your statement off of what? We know that the Templars lived in the Circles along with the mages. These are basically fortresses, and they would also have their own serfs, which would supply each individual Circle with supplies.
It stands to reason that the Templars have strongholds throughout Thedas, sicne they are a knightly order. Some Templars are stationed in Chantries sure, and they might recieve their trainning, or at least initial trainning, in Chantries. But we simply do not have enough available data, to flat out state that the Templars does not have any fortresses of their own, especially since it would stand to reason that they did.

The information we DO have tells us that the Templars are not independant of the Chantry.  The order they grew from was, that that order is long gone.  We know that the Templar recruits are pulled from Chantry training.  We know that the Chantry supplies all the logistics for the Templars including Lyrium, and we KNOW that it's the Priesthood and not the Templars that are ultimately supposed to call the shots (which is why the Right of Annulment is written the way it is).

Bottom line, the Templars are viewed as rebels, and as such Divine Justina would be within her rights to call the entire order both Rebellious and Heretical, and furthermore it would be smart politics (esp with her strained relationship with the Empress of Orlais) to do just that.

-Polaris

[azarhal]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You base your statement off of what? We know that the Templars lived in the Circles along with the mages. These are basically fortresses, and they would also have their own serfs, which would supply each individual Circle with supplies.
It stands to reason that the Templars have strongholds throughout Thedas, sicne they are a knightly order. Some Templars are stationed in Chantries sure, and they might recieve their trainning, or at least initial trainning, in Chantries. But we simply do not have enough available data, to flat out state that the Templars does not have any fortresses of their own, especially since it would stand to reason that they did.

I'm basing it on World of Thedas, two games, a bunch of dlcs/expansion, comics and one anime worth of lore that only call the Templars the Chantry's militant arm and a military order and makes no mention of them owning anything be it building, lands, servants, serfs or titles beside their ranks. The lore also says that the Templars must follow the local Chantry leader...(be it a Grand Cleric or a Mother).

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

I think the Orlesians do care since that war is fought on Orlesian soil. 

Incorrect. It is fought all over Thedas.

azrahal
Varric told us the "future" in DA2:  the Templars have rebelled against
the Chantry. That's the public point-of-view on the matter in 9:40.

That's VARRICS point of view.
And we all know Varric and the accuracy of his tales.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
Who cares because this is not going to happen anyway. The chantry right now would benefit from the destruction of the templars and creating the next generation of templars under stricter chantry control.

Again with that "this WILL happen because I say so" attitude.

No, the chantry doesn't benefit from it.
Who will watch after the mages?
By the time another generation of Templars is ready, mages have free reign. Who would be willing to join the tempalrs after that aynway?
And how would the people feel? Remeber, common folk generally love the templars.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Bottom line, the Templars are viewed as rebels, and as such Divine Justina would be within her rights to call the entire order both Rebellious and Heretical, and furthermore it would be smart politics (esp with her strained relationship with the Empress of Orlais) to do just that.

-Polaris

I respectfully disagree.

It would be bad politics and a bad move in general.
The Chantry is concerned with far more than Orlais.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Who cares because this is not going to happen anyway. The chantry right now would benefit from the destruction of the templars and creating the next generation of templars under stricter chantry control.

Again with that "this WILL happen because I say so" attitude.

No, the chantry doesn't benefit from it.
Who will watch after the mages?
By the time another generation of Templars is ready, mages have free reign. Who would be willing to join the tempalrs after that aynway?
And how would the people feel? Remeber, common folk generally love the templars.

Actually the Chantry does benefit.  You simply don't want to admit it.  Right now the Templars are in open rebellion, and likely foraging the land (and 'foraging' is a euphamistic term for pillaging and looting), and worse they are an army unto themselves.

NO Nation or ruler is going to take kindly to this, and most nations (starting with the Empress of Orlais) will blame the Chantry.  The Chantry can either pretend that Lambert's split never happened, or they can throw the Templars under the bus.  We know as of Dragon 9:40 (see Varric) that the Chantry has chosen to throw the Templars under the bus.

As for mages, you assume that magic can't be regulated any other way, but a lot of us have given strong evidence that this simply isn't so.    What's more, the old way of doing this will not be coming back, and I'd be suprised if magic was ever (entirely) under Chantry control ever again.  That doesn't main mages will be able to  do whatever they want with magic.  Most reasonable mages understand that magic needs to be regulated.

I expect the various rulers will come up with ways (in conjuction with the circles) to control magic.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Bottom line, the Templars are viewed as rebels, and as such Divine Justina would be within her rights to call the entire order both Rebellious and Heretical, and furthermore it would be smart politics (esp with her strained relationship with the Empress of Orlais) to do just that.

-Polaris

I respectfully disagree.

It would be bad politics and a bad move in general.
The Chantry is concerned with far more than Orlais.

You are biased.  The Templars right now ARE considered to be in open rebellion as of 9:40, and the Chantry can't ignore the concerns of the nobility (re having a rogue army trample through and forage on their lands).

It is very much in the best interests of the Chantry to throw the Templars under the bus if they don't come back.  Otherwise the Chanty will lose good will from just about everyone else.  What Lambert did was politically stupid no matter how much he may been provoked.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

azrahal
Varric told us the "future" in DA2:  the Templars have rebelled against
the Chantry. That's the public point-of-view on the matter in 9:40.

That's VARRICS point of view.
And we all know Varric and the accuracy of his tales.

Which is immediately verified by Cassandra, a Chantry Loyalist.  She doesn't dispute Varric's characterization of the Templars at all save to say that not all desire war.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

azarhal wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You base your statement off of what? We know that the Templars lived in the Circles along with the mages. These are basically fortresses, and they would also have their own serfs, which would supply each individual Circle with supplies.
It stands to reason that the Templars have strongholds throughout Thedas, sicne they are a knightly order. Some Templars are stationed in Chantries sure, and they might recieve their trainning, or at least initial trainning, in Chantries. But we simply do not have enough available data, to flat out state that the Templars does not have any fortresses of their own, especially since it would stand to reason that they did.

I'm basing it on World of Thedas, two games, a bunch of dlcs/expansion, comics and one anime worth of lore that only call the Templars the Chantry's militant arm and a military order and makes no mention of them owning anything be it building, lands, servants, serfs or titles beside their ranks. The lore also says that the Templars must follow the local Chantry leader...(be it a Grand Cleric or a Mother).

Particularly the part of being "the militant arm" would also imply that they have fortifications around Thedas. None of what you state as your indisputable proof, also does not say that the Templars DON'T have any fortifications. Basically you are using nothing as proof of your statement, since the sources you pull, makes no reference one way or another to the subject. So you are basically just stating your own belief as to how the Templars function.
And so far the only direct reference we have to where the Templars must follow the Grand Cleric, is when an annulment is called, or dismissed. Otheriwse it is the Knight-Commander who is calling the shots. I'm guessing that the Templar and Chantry ranks run parallel to eachother, with the Chantry's ranks being a bit displaced above the Templars. So a Knight-Captain is equivalent to the Revered Mother, which would mean that the Knight-Comamnder would not take orders from the Revered Mother, but only from a Grand Cleric, or the Divine Herself. Furthermore, taking orders from Chantry officials, does in no way shape or form, preclude the existance of a Templar Fortress, you don't have to live in the same building as the one you take your orders from....