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[The Hierophant]

azarhal wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

You'd figure that they would have some resources in stock, armories or forts to coordinate assaults from in case of a future Exalted March against the Qunari.

Exalted March are similar to the real world Crusades. The Chantry send a call for help to the nobles, which in turn recruits their holding. Resources will come from those nobles and holding.

Interesting.

That means that the Templar's acquisition of resources would depend on their rep with all the nobles, and monarchies of Thedas.

[IanPolaris]

Bleachrude wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


With power comes respect.  Given that the circles can negotiate with the nobles with genuine power of their own gives them an advantage that most minorities don't have. 

-Polaris

And this is where I disagree about nobles.

Nobles are going to be expecting the mages to be equivalent to any other person in their demense. The Arl of Armanthine is the judge and jury of the nobles underneath him and if a mage commits a crime in their area, they will fully expect that they themselves would be judge and jury.

If they go to war, they will expect the mages to ask "how high" when they say "jump".

That depends.  In Fereldan a noble with this attitude doesn't last long.  The minor lords underneath you and even the peasentry have rights.  In fact in DAA, the codex entry on Fereldan nobility makes it very clear that nobels in Ferelden in this sort of attitude don't last long.  That being so, I expect the Fereldan nobility to be resonable with the local circle, especially if the popular king is (and especailly if the king has the backing of the Chantry's Grand Cleric and the local Templar Knight Commader Gregoire).

It only takes one nation to break the embargo and then other rulers will go out of their way to make it work admittedly with variou degrees of success.

Furthermore, most mages don't actually have much to offer nobles. Remember, healing is a rare ability (yeah, in-game, we are awash with healers but the lore explicitly mentions that this school is the rarest of them all). Now the Crows and Bards I can see salivating at the use of mages but in general?

No.  The spirit healer specialization is rare, but the ability to do minor healing is quite easy (apparently) for mages and quite easy for a mage to learn and teach.  In fact it's the basic spell for the entire conjuration school which all mages can learn.  Futhermore, mages can do things in combat that no one else can and make for a real force multiplier.  The Wardens can show other armies how this is done....as can veterans of the last exalted march.

Especially since without the tranquil, you lose out on the ability to create magical items (and that doesn't even count the fact that mages need to eat, sleep etc. Compare the dorms of Kinloch hold to the regular houses in Denerim, much less the alienages or the dusters.) and their also is no lyrium for the mages to use (that's a trade agreement between the chantry and the dwarves)

Who says the circles won't have tranquil esp since it is now clear that tranquility can be reversed?  Lyrium may be hard to come by, but that depends on how the Chantry jumps and what Orzammar decides to do.

re: Chantry and templars are the middle force
The reason why people tend to side with mages I've noticed is that presumably, since THEIR character is in control, the average mage is not in danger to the populace. Even though Connor showed exactly WHY mages need the circle, most of the audience comes from a western viewpoint of "FREEDOM" and "all men are created equal".

There's also the fact that people tend to ignore that the Chantry/circle IS the middle position. There's the Tevinters on one side and the Qun on the other of the mage debate but since we don't play from those perspectives, fans don't see the chantry position as the middle one.

I would argue that most people side with mages because most people (players I mean) don't accept the Chantry/Templar arguments....or at least not enough to justify treating mages as non-people.

-Polaris

[The Hierophant]

The Circles of Magi would probably have to pay taxes in whatever kingdom they are located in, as they'll lack the benefits of Chantry support. They'll need money to purchase food, clothes, toiletries, furniture, books, etc. for hundreds to a thousand people each. The mages main revenue is the sale of magical items, and since there will probably be no Tranquil (Mages turning mages into Tranquil is hypocrisy), the mages will have to find an alternative to making magical items or they'll lose out on their main cash cow.

Then there's the fraternities of the Circle who were only united because of the threat of the Templars, and without that unity could easily be divided by nationalism, or a slew of other petty grievances that could result in infighting that the kingdoms could use to exploit the mages.

Plus unlike the Templars the individual kingdoms could potentially muster hundreds of thousands of soldiers if they want to strong arm the Circles into servitude, and use them to wage war against the other kingdoms.

[garrusfan1]

the templars would get little support from alot of the kingdoms since they generally treat others like crap and think they are the best thing ever and walk around and can do anything they want as long as it is possibily related to catching a mage. mages will likely treat the nobility well if they were allowed to stay and I imagine if they stayed they would help their army if asked and would likely not cause trouble if they were left alone or treated well

[The_FenixV]

garrusfan1 wrote...

the templars would get little support from alot of the kingdoms since they generally treat others like crap and think they are the best thing ever and walk around and can do anything they want as long as it is possibily related to catching a mage. mages will likely treat the nobility well if they were allowed to stay and I imagine if they stayed they would help their army if asked and would likely not cause trouble if they were left alone or treated well

The templar attitude you mentioned... I only saw that sort of attitude on the templars in Kirkwall and the knight commander in Dawn of the Seeker. 

[garrusfan1]

The_FenixV wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

the templars would get little support from alot of the kingdoms since they generally treat others like crap and think they are the best thing ever and walk around and can do anything they want as long as it is possibily related to catching a mage. mages will likely treat the nobility well if they were allowed to stay and I imagine if they stayed they would help their army if asked and would likely not cause trouble if they were left alone or treated well

The templar attitude you mentioned... I only saw that sort of attitude on the templars in Kirkwall and the knight commander in Dawn of the Seeker. 

they are allowed to do whatever they want with impunitty because it is authorized by the chantry

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...

The Circles of Magi would probably have to pay taxes in whatever kingdom they are located in, as they'll lack the benefits of Chantry support. They'll need money to purchase food, clothes, toiletries, furniture, books, etc. for hundreds to a thousand people each. The mages main revenue is the sale of magical items, and since there will probably be no Tranquil (Mages turning mages into Tranquil is hypocrisy), the mages will have to find an alternative to making magical items or they'll lose out on their main cash cow.

In the first place mages making other mages tranquil is not hypocrisy.  There are those mages that become tranquil voluntarily (see Orwain).  I expect that to continue especially since we now know that tranquility is reversible.  Not only that but magical services and goods (such as potions) would very much be in demand, and taxes can be paid in kind (and in the middle ages generally were).  You seem to think that the circles would be completely unable to make magical items.  There is no evidence that this is the case at all.

Then there's the fraternities of the Circle who were only united because of the threat of the Templars, and without that unity could easily be divided by nationalism, or a slew of other petty grievances that could result in infighting that the kingdoms could use to exploit the mages.

Plus unlike the Templars the individual kingdoms could potentially muster hundreds of thousands of soldiers if they want to strong arm the Circles into servitude, and use them to wage war against the other kingdoms.

The Lucrosians and Aequitarians would be very likely to agree to an arrangement with a Kingdom.  Post Asunder, I think the Loyalists could be persuaded as well if the Chantry gives it's blessings.  The Libertarians may be a problem, but I think enough reasonable liberatarians could be convinced that half a loaf is better than no loaf....as long as some Libertarian assurances are met (and I think the nobility would realize you have to give in order to get).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

garrusfan1 wrote...

The_FenixV wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

the templars would get little support from alot of the kingdoms since they generally treat others like crap and think they are the best thing ever and walk around and can do anything they want as long as it is possibily related to catching a mage. mages will likely treat the nobility well if they were allowed to stay and I imagine if they stayed they would help their army if asked and would likely not cause trouble if they were left alone or treated well

The templar attitude you mentioned... I only saw that sort of attitude on the templars in Kirkwall and the knight commander in Dawn of the Seeker. 

they are allowed to do whatever they want with impunitty because it is authorized by the chantry

Not any more.  I am not sure that Lambert and his 'boys have figured that out yet.  Yet one more reason why leaving the Chantry regardless of provocation was a stupid thing for the Templars to do.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 28 mai 2013 - 07:55 .

[The_FenixV]

garrusfan1 wrote...

The_FenixV wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

the templars would get little support from alot of the kingdoms since they generally treat others like crap and think they are the best thing ever and walk around and can do anything they want as long as it is possibily related to catching a mage. mages will likely treat the nobility well if they were allowed to stay and I imagine if they stayed they would help their army if asked and would likely not cause trouble if they were left alone or treated well

The templar attitude you mentioned... I only saw that sort of attitude on the templars in Kirkwall and the knight commander in Dawn of the Seeker. 

they are allowed to do whatever they want with impunitty because it is authorized by the chantry

Knight Commander Greagoir seemed honorable compared to the templars mentioned on Kirkwall and the dawn of the seeker, comic. Plus they aren't with the chantry now. 

[IanPolaris]

The_FenixV wrote...

Knight Commander Greagoir seemed honorable compared to the templars mentioned on Kirkwall and the dawn of the seeker, comic. Plus they aren't with the chantry now. 

Yeah but the Greagoirs seem to be in the minority.  Most of the Templars (judging by their actions) seem to be of the Lambert/Meredith mold.  In fact I fully expect that KC Gregoire will cut a deal with King Alistair once the events of Asunder come to light....well with King Alistair and First Enchanter Irving.  That deal will probably involve a schism between Fereldan's Templars and the Templars as a whole.  That last seems especially likely given that the Templars are now in rebellion against the Chantry.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

garrusfan1 wrote...

the templars would get little support from alot of the kingdoms since they generally treat others like crap and think they are the best thing ever and walk around and can do anything they want as long as it is possibily related to catching a mage.

Templars don't "generally treat others like crap", they've got their renegade elements just like everyone else. The only difference being that Templar must answer to the Grand Cleric / Divine for any crimes they commit, making the Chantry the only order in all of Thedas which takes liability.

mages will likely treat the nobility well if they were allowed to stay and I imagine if they stayed they would help their army if asked and would likely not cause trouble if they were left alone or treated well

Ha, no. Mages are self-entitled children who have no experience in the real world and have never associated themselves with nobility, they'll be surprised when nobility tries to enslave them to use them as a weapon against their enemies.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 mai 2013 - 08:18 .

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

the templars would get little support from alot of the kingdoms since they generally treat others like crap and think they are the best thing ever and walk around and can do anything they want as long as it is possibily related to catching a mage.

Templars don't "generally treat others like crap", they've got their renegade elements just like everyone else. The only difference being that Templar must answer to the Grand Cleric / Divine for any crimes they commit, making the Chantry the only order in all of Thedas which takes liability.

There is no evidence in practice that the Templars answer to anyone for any crimes they commit.  That's one of the problems and it's a big reason why Kirkwall/Meredith failed as spectacularly as they did.  I note that the Templars under Lambert have broken away from the Chantry so they are a rogue army on a literal witchhunt that answers to no one.  That isn't going to go over very well with the landed nobility.

mages will likely treat the nobility well if they were allowed to stay and I imagine if they stayed they would help their army if asked and would likely not cause trouble if they were left alone or treated well

Ha, no. Mages are self-entitled children who have no experience in the real world and have never associated themselves with nobility, they'll be surprised when nobility tries to enslave them to use them as a weapon against their enemies.

You seem to forget that not a few mages are nobility themselves that can't inherit because of their magic, but have all the other aspects of being raised noble.  Not only that, but First Enchanters and Senior Enchanters can and do circulate frequently with various high ranking nobles.  Certainly having a socially important circle mage at an Orlesian Duke's dinner party was considered unusual but not outre'.

-Polaris

[The Hierophant]

The last bit assumes that all the monarchies and nobles would take kindly to having a mage in their court as they'll most likely lack protection from them (no anti-magic).

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

There is no evidence in practice that the Templars answer to anyone for any crimes they commit.  That's one of the problems and it's a big reason why Kirkwall/Meredith failed as spectacularly as they did.

It failed because Elthina was incompetent. Even then, Meredith would've had to answer to the Divine had Hawke not killed her.

I note that the Templars under Lambert have broken away from the Chantry so they are a rogue army on a literal witchhunt that answers to no one.  That isn't going to go over very well with the landed nobility.

They're still devout worshippers of the Maker and will obey Chantry laws despite breaking their pact after the Divine betrayed them, they answer to no-one now but the Templar Order was one of liability, something which is hopefully understood by the upper echelon.

You seem to forget that not a few mages are nobility themselves that can't inherit because of their magic, but have all the other aspects of being raised noble.

For the first few years of their life when they have no governing. Hell, that'd make them an even more spoiled brat than other mages because they'd feel entitled to rule over everyone.

Not only that, but First Enchanters and Senior Enchanters can and do circulate frequently with various high ranking nobles.

First and Senior Enchanters still aren't lorded over by nobility, though. A senior mage meeting with nobility is a pre-arranged event which there are services rendered, the noble has no influence over the mage at all in such cases. Given the fact that Chantry laws no longer protect mages, nobility have no reason to not interfere with mages and mages have no grounds to interact with them.

The fact that most mages are valuable assets will be abused by all varieties of noblility, those who don't will be crushed by those who will. All of Thedas will become Tevinter 0.5 as political maneuvering will fall to the way-side and accumulating forces becomes far more important.
 

Certainly having a socially important circle mage at an Orlesian Duke's dinner party was considered unusual but not outre'.

And that went well for them, didn't it?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 mai 2013 - 08:51 .

[DKJaigen]

The_FenixV wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

the templars would get little support from alot of the kingdoms since they generally treat others like crap and think they are the best thing ever and walk around and can do anything they want as long as it is possibily related to catching a mage. mages will likely treat the nobility well if they were allowed to stay and I imagine if they stayed they would help their army if asked and would likely not cause trouble if they were left alone or treated well

The templar attitude you mentioned... I only saw that sort of attitude on the templars in Kirkwall and the knight commander in Dawn of the Seeker. 

Templars are self righteous. Thats a problem when they encounter people who simply dont agree with them.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Dave of Canada wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

the templars would get little support from alot of the kingdoms since they generally treat others like crap and think they are the best thing ever and walk around and can do anything they want as long as it is possibily related to catching a mage.

Templars don't "generally treat others like crap", they've got their renegade elements just like everyone else. The only difference being that Templar must answer to the Grand Cleric / Divine for any crimes they commit, making the Chantry the only order in all of Thedas which takes liability.

mages will likely treat the nobility well if they were allowed to stay and I imagine if they stayed they would help their army if asked and would likely not cause trouble if they were left alone or treated well

Ha, no. Mages are self-entitled children who have no experience in the real world and have never associated themselves with nobility, they'll be surprised when nobility tries to enslave them to use them as a weapon against their enemies.

1)the reason is that many peoples in Thedas(Ferelden, Nevarra, Tevinter, Rivain and others) hate Orlais with their Templars Order and not really like Orlais Chantry(who now lose their former influence in Thedas) 

as we see when Chantry Templars in Kirkwall try to have powers and take controll to city most of even Andrastian nobles was not be happy and start rebellion

and now separeted Templars armys(with ~15 KC) are renegades with no Orlais Chantry authorities and former expensive Chantry Lyrium supply from Carta criminals.....but Templars are not mages and they really need a lot of supplies(money,weapons,armor,food,water and especially a LOT OF LYRIUM supply to have their abilitys and lifes) to exist especially after they are separeted from Chantry and having a full-scale war with mages


2)yes of course there is a lot of mages(and expecially Templars) who was raised by Chantry and not have experience in real world but most of this inexperienced mages who are not learn how to live, already would be tranquil, dead  or  possesed by demons

and mages side not have just ex-circle mages but a many apostages

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 28 mai 2013 - 09:09 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

 While the nobles are going to hold mixed feeligns towards the Templars, they are also going to ahve mixed feeligns towards mages. The people however, is going to LOVE the Templars. The mages are almost universally feared by the people, even hated, and the Templars appear to be the only ones willing to do something about them. And since the Templars will have the support of the people, which the Divine will have lost (read, not the Chantry itself), the nobles might be leaning towards supporting the Templars, if anything then to avoid being stamped as a mage-sympathizer and have their own people lynch them.

[Dave of Canada]

I see potentially three factions.

New Templar Order: Seekers of Truth, Templar Order, minor tranquil, mundane support, traditionalist lords.
Chantry: Seekers of Truth rebels, Templar rebels, mage loyalists, mundane support, traditionalist lords.
Circle of Magi: Mage rebels, minor mundane support, reformist and power-hungry lords.

Nobility wouldn't support mages unless they'd gain something from it, they wouldn't risk losing out on majority support.

Templar Order and Circle have the biggest problems with no real foundations, Chantry has foundations but was thrown down. I'd imagine a player aligned with the Chantry would be about setting up the Chantry to be recognized once again while Order / Circle would be about setting up their foundations upon the back of the Chantry.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Templar had the option to reintergrate into the Chantry by replacing the Divine. I don't see the Circle entering talks with the Chantry because they waged war knowing the Divine was helping them.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 mai 2013 - 10:04 .

[Bleachrude]

Er..one thing and I think many are projecting here.

I don't think any nation other than Ferelden actually associates the chantry with Orlais. In none of the various conquests (even in Ferelden) were actual templars (orlesian or otherwise) actually used. Indeed, in a Stolen Throne, I remember mention of chantries being safe places that even the chevaliers wouldn't cross openly.

Indeed, the worst that can be said is that the chantry doesn't speak out more strongly against aggression but that goes both ways. The Blasted lands were considered orlesian but the nevarrans were able to take them yet the chantry hasn't said squat.

Furthermore, the right hand of the divine is a member of the Pentaghos clan, the ruling Nevarra family so how hated could the chantry actually be?

[LobselVith8]

The_FenixV wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

they are allowed to do whatever they want with impunitty because it is authorized by the chantry

Knight Commander Greagoir seemed honorable compared to the templars mentioned on Kirkwall and the dawn of the seeker, comic. Plus they aren't with the chantry now. 

We also have Cullen talking about how some templars discuss killing mages with glee. It's not exactly an ideal enviornment, even with Greagoir in charge.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

 While the nobles are going to hold mixed feeligns towards the Templars, they are also going to ahve mixed feeligns towards mages. The people however, is going to LOVE the Templars. The mages are almost universally feared by the people, even hated, and the Templars appear to be the only ones willing to do something about them. And since the Templars will have the support of the people, which the Divine will have lost (read, not the Chantry itself), the nobles might be leaning towards supporting the Templars, if anything then to avoid being stamped as a mage-sympathizer and have their own people lynch them.

That situation will last 2 weeks and then the templar army will fall apart because of lack of supplies or they have to live from the land. If the last thing happens the common people will very quickly grow fed up with the templars.

People hold the templars in high regard as holy warriors and you are correct on that but nothing is as damaging as a shattered pedestal. once people find out that the templars are knights in shiny armor its going to bite them in the ass quick. And i dont doubt their more templars like Kerras and Alrick out their which makes the templars fall even harder.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

 While the nobles are going to hold mixed feeligns towards the Templars, they are also going to ahve mixed feeligns towards mages. The people however, is going to LOVE the Templars. The mages are almost universally feared by the people, even hated, and the Templars appear to be the only ones willing to do something about them. And since the Templars will have the support of the people, which the Divine will have lost (read, not the Chantry itself), the nobles might be leaning towards supporting the Templars, if anything then to avoid being stamped as a mage-sympathizer and have their own people lynch them.

I think you are dead wrong.  Whatever the peasentry may think about magic, I can damn well guarantee that any army that goes "foraging" in the countryside which is a euphemistic way of saying, looting, pillaging, and committing other vile acts against the peasantry to keep supplied, any good will towards the Templars is going to dissapear pretty darn quickly.  What's worse your typical peasent is going to associate the Chantry and the Divine with his or her local Revered Mother or Sister that runs the local Chantry.  Until Asunder this helped the Templars, but after the Templars get done pillaging the village and then doing a very literal witchhunt.....having the Chantry call out the Templars as rebels and heretics would just be icing on the cake.

The peasentry may still fear magic in the abstract, but I promise you they'll hate the immediate prospect of a bloodthirsty army that answers to no one, and plunders and does other vile things because they can more (and yes this was the typical behavior of armies forced to "forage").  The later is a far more real, understandable, and immediate threat. 

I remind you that the old organization that Lambert seems to want to ressurect, the old Inquisition unlike the Templars had a very dark reputation which was very throughly earned.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

And since you have yet to come up with any sort of tangible proof that the Templars are not self-sustained in anything other than their Lyrium supply, I'm going to stick with what we know, that the people fears and hate magic, and they trust and love the Templars. Hell, the people would probably sooner supply the Templars, than shelter even a single mage for a night.

And you might also want to take into consideration the World of Thedas description of the old Inquisition, which sheds more light on the old Order, thana  single line from an obscure codex entry....

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 29 mai 2013 - 09:38 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And since you have yet to come up with any sort of tangible proof that the Templars are not self-sustained in anything other than their Lyrium supply, I'm going to stick with what we know, that the people fears and hate magic, and they trust and love the Templars. Hell, the people would probably sooner supply the Templars, than shelter even a single mage for a night.

And you might also want to take into consideration the World of Thedas description of the old Inquisition, which sheds more light on the old Order, thana  single line from an obscure codex entry....

The lyrium shortage alone is going to cripple the templar order . And the the thrust and love for the templars will last only a short while.

Also common peasants in villages in the medieval time where not able to supply armies. it requires an extensive network that runs through the entire country to keep an medieval army fed and clothed and even in medieval times this failed often.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 29 mai 2013 - 10:20 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

If there even is a Lyrium shortage... The Templars ahve probably taken over all the Chantry storages of Lyrium, and they've retaken all the Circles, which probably also had storages of Lyrium, and they can trade with the Dwarves for more. So, it isn't even certain that there is a Lyrium shortage...