164 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

I've little interest in getting xenophobic elven supremacists who are no better than brigands their own land.

[Aolbain]

Where would we put this hypothetical elven nation? Should we give them the Dales? And force away the natives whose ancestors have lived there for century's? That sound a tad familiar.

[David Gaider]

It is mentioned in the codices that many of the Dalish are descended from nobility and as a result, according to them, are the closest to what the ancient elves were. It took me awhile to ask this myself but if these dalish elves are indeed nobility then did the elves of the Dales had a king? or queen? All the major human nations, even the dwarves, have a monarchy. Only the Qunari have a tri-leadership. So, it begs to question, if the elves will indeed eventually get the Dales back (debatable), will they be a monarchy or something else? That is, if they had a monarchy previously.

I think it would be appropriate to say that the Dales had an aristocracy or oligarchy, as opposed to a monarchy. Whether that resembled what the Elvhen had long before is really in question.

As for the hypothetical of a new elven homeland, how the Dalish have always envisioned it is all the elves coming together and the Dalish teaching the city elves what it means to be elven again. To restore their lost culture and lore. Certainly they see themselves as the rulers in such a situation, though no doubt from a paternalistic sense. Whether the city elves would be okay with that and eager to learn, or whether they would chafe at such an imbalance or find the Dalish attitudes patronizing, is a matter for speculation.

[LobselVith8]

Aolbain wrote...

Where would we put this hypothetical elven nation? Should we give them the Dales? And force away the natives whose ancestors have lived there for century's? That sound a tad familiar.

Yeah, it does. Sounds like the liberation of Ferelden from the Orlesian Empire after being occupied for over a century.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Except no elves live there now. Nor have they for 700 years. There is nobody there to "liberate." And the modern  Orlesians and their ancestors have lived there for generations.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 mai 2013 - 02:37 .

[Iakus]

StreetMagic wrote...

"A matter of speculation"...

No doubt many would be similar to Fenris. "Who gives a damn.." I think it's only natural some would be more concerned about their own personal history than ancestral history. I mean, if you take the real world into account, most people would be like that.

Lots of cool story potential either way though.

Indeed, after so many centuries most city elves probably identify as Ferelden, Orlesians, Antivan, etc.  

[Stella-Arc]

Aolbain wrote...

Where would we put this hypothetical elven nation? Should we give them the Dales? And force away the natives whose ancestors have lived there for century's? That sound a tad familiar.

I don't know if you were being sarcastic or...

David Gaider wrote...

It is mentioned in the codices that many of the Dalish are descended from nobility and as a result, according to them, are the closest to what the ancient elves were. It took me awhile to ask this myself but if these dalish elves are indeed nobility then did the elves of the Dales had a king? or queen? All the major human nations, even the dwarves, have a monarchy. Only the Qunari have a tri-leadership. So, it begs to question, if the elves will indeed eventually get the Dales back (debatable), will they be a monarchy or something else? That is, if they had a monarchy previously.

I think it would be appropriate to say that the Dales had an aristocracy or oligarchy, as opposed to a monarchy. Whether that resembled what the Elvhen had long before is really in question.

As for the hypothetical of a new elven homeland, how the Dalish have always envisioned it is all the elves coming together and the Dalish teaching the city elves what it means to be elven again. To restore their lost culture and lore. Certainly they see themselves as the rulers in such a situation, though no doubt from a paternalistic sense. Whether the city elves would be okay with that and eager to learn, or whether they would chafe at such an imbalance or find the Dalish attitudes patronizing, is a matter for speculation.

David Gaider responded to my thread. I could die of happiness now.

Ahem, anyway...if the Dales had an aristocracy/oligarchy then it wouldn't surprise me as to why the elves divided into two groups: the city elves and the dalish. The dalish claim descent from nobility and if a few powerful few ruled the Dales then it would make sense for those who had power to refuse to submit, among other reasons of course. 

I doubt that everything will be rainbows and sunshine between the city elves and dalish. Some will be willing to learn, some might not while other do want to learn but do not like how the dalish are treating them.

I can taste the drama now...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Except no elves live there now. Nor have they for 700 years. There is nobody there to "liberate." And the modern  Orlesians and their ancestors have lived there for generations.

So...it was okay for Orlais/Chantry to kick out the elves and force those who took their ultimatum to be herded into alienages as second-class citizens but it's not okay for the elves to take back...oh, I don't know...their homeland? While the existance of an elven empire is up to debate, the Dales isn't. It belonged to the elves and it was taken. Besides, the humans own like what, 80% of Thedas? You would think that would be enough. Talk about being greedy. 

And I'm sure there are a few elves that live in what was once the Dales. Not in huge numbers of course. But anyway, this thread isn't about whether the Dales should be retaken or not. It's about an hypothetical elven kingdom and the problems that could arise between the city elves and the dalish. So let's agree to disagree. 

Modifié par Stella-Arc, 25 mai 2013 - 02:58 .

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Except no elves live there now. Nor have they for 700 years. There is nobody there to "liberate." And the modern  Orlesians and their ancestors have lived there for generations.

Actually, Empress Celene was lured out of Val Royeaux with news of an elven rebellion in Halamshiral.

[Ausstig]

Stella-Arc wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Except no elves live there now. Nor have they for 700 years. There is nobody there to "liberate." And the modern  Orlesians and their ancestors have lived there for generations.

So...it was okay for Orlais/Chantry to kick out the elves and force those who took their ultimatum to be herded into alienages as second-class citizens but it's not okay for the elves to take back...oh, I don't know...their homeland? While the existance of an elven empire is up to debate, the Dales isn't. It belonged to the elves and it was taken. Besides, the humans own like what, 80% of Thedas? You would think that would be enough. Talk about being greedy. 

And I'm sure there are a few elves that live in what was once the Dales. Not in huge numbers of course. But anyway, this thread isn't about whether the Dales should be retaken or not. It's about an hypothetical elven kingdom and the problems that could arise between the city elves and the dalish. So let's agree to disagree. 

THE ELVES STARTED THE WAR!

They got what they diserved.

[Plaintiff]

Ausstig wrote...
THE ELVES STARTED THE WAR!

According to Orlais and the Chantry, who have every reason to lie.

[Sir JK]

Plaintiff wrote...

According to Orlais and the Chantry, who have every reason to lie.

So does the elves, mind.
The justification for their culture and their pride in being humanity's victims would take a severe blow if it were to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt that they played a major part in their own downfall.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Ausstig

"THE ELVES STARTED THE WAR!

They got what they diserved. "

ORLY?

so Orzammar Chantry incident was Dwarven fault?

so sister Petrice actions was Qunari fault?

so Chantry incidents with dalish clans was Elven fault?

or Mage VS Templars was mages fault?

we already know and see how Orlais with their Orlais Chantry work, so people stop being blind hypocrites

all what Dales wanted it is just
1)keep their OWN culture
2)keep their OWN lands
2)not breed with Humans and produce only their OWN Elven childrens

and what Orlais and their Chantry did for them?
1)force them to accept Orlais culture and forget their own
2)conquer their lands and destroyed their city's
3)enslaved them live in Alianages and raped many of them

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 25 mai 2013 - 06:37 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Stella-Arc wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Except no elves live there now. Nor have they for 700 years. There is nobody there to "liberate." And the modern Orlesians and their ancestors have lived there for generations.

So...it was okay for Orlais/Chantry to kick out the elves and force those who took their ultimatum to be herded into alienages as second-class citizens but it's not okay for the elves to take back...oh, I don't know...their homeland? While the existance of an elven empire is up to debate, the Dales isn't. It belonged to the elves and it was taken. Besides, the humans own like what, 80% of Thedas? You would think that would be enough. Talk about being greedy.

And I'm sure there are a few elves that live in what was once the Dales. Not in huge numbers of course. But anyway, this thread isn't about whether the Dales should be retaken or not. It's about an hypothetical elven kingdom and the problems that could arise between the city elves and the dalish. So let's agree to disagree.

Of course not. But the fact that the humans unjustly ethnic cleansed the Dales in the Glory Age doesn't make the notion of elves using ethnic cleansing on Orlais in the Dragon Age any less unjustified. The Dales weren't even their original homeland, Orlesians have lived there twice as long as the elves ever did.

"Humans" aren't a single monolithic political entity so fact that humans also rule in other far off nations wouldn't mean much to a Orlesian or anyone else that the elves try to evict.

Not that I'm opposed to the elves getting another nation of their own, but if they try to build it somewhere that's already inhabited then they are going to cause problems for the rest of Thedas and harm a lot of innocents.

But regarding City Elves and Dalish Elves, it's impossible to say how exactly the two groups would integrate but I don't think it would work out well overall. The City Elves take pride in their city elf culture and the Dalish Elves tend to look down on it.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 mai 2013 - 06:31 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The war was started by the Elves... Every historical record agrees that the war started when the Dalish attacked the Orlesian village of Red Crossing. The conflict however is much older, dating all the way back to before the Second Blight, what started the conflict is not clear, but both parties are probably to blame.

[MisterJB]

Dark Korsar wrote...
so Orzammar Chantry incident was Dwarven fault?

Brother Burkel opens a Chantry and many dwarves willingly convert. The more conservatives elements of dwarven society feel threatened by this and restrict the rights of Andrastians. Brother Burkel tries to conduct a peaceful protest over this and his killed on the streets. The Divine hears of this and is angered, rightly so. Sources claim she considers an Exhalted March but nothing ever happens.
So, yes. The blame should be placed entirely on the dwarves here.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 mai 2013 - 12:47 .

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider wrote...

Whether the city elves would be okay with that and eager to learn, or whether they would chafe at such an imbalance or find the Dalish attitudes patronizing, is a matter for speculation.

I don't think it would go very well, honestly. Sure, some of the city elves would be content to learn some of the Dalish ways, but I'm sure others would feel they exchanged one master for another, particularly when it comes to the superior Dalish attitude. I predict that factions would spring up almost immediately.

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Of course not. But the fact that the humans unjustly ethnic cleansed the Dales in the Glory Age doesn't make the notion of elves using ethnic cleansing on Orlais in the Dragon Age any less unjustified. The Dales weren't even their original homeland, Orlesians have lived there twice as long as the elves ever did.

The elves don't need to commit genocide to reclaim the kingdom of the Dales.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

"Humans" aren't a single monolithic political entity so fact that humans also rule in other far off nations wouldn't mean much to a Orlesian or anyone else that the elves try to evict.

Andrastian humans tend to be racist, and view elves as "less than people" - which is a problem that even Duncan can't dissuade some people because it's how they were raised their entire life, as he admits. The elves who live in the Alienages can be wiped out in "purges" - as we see with the dead children from the orphanage who were massacred in the purge in Denerim.

It's this monstrous and dehumanizing system that makes me hope that the elves can have a homeland where they can be free of this type of cruelty and injustice.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Not that I'm opposed to the elves getting another nation of their own, but if they try to build it somewhere that's already inhabited then they are going to cause problems for the rest of Thedas and harm a lot of innocents.

Because the kingdom of the Dales is their homeland, and according to Dalish history, they lost it because the elves refused to convert and kicked out Chantry missionaries, which lead to the Andrastian Chantry sending in templars into their sovereign territory. We also have accounts of an elven rebellion in the occupied kingdom of the Dales.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

But regarding City Elves and Dalish Elves, it's impossible to say how exactly the two groups would integrate but I don't think it would work out well overall. The City Elves take pride in their city elf culture and the Dalish Elves tend to look down on it.

We have examples of Alienage elves who are willing to give up the Andrastian faith for a better life and another way.

[Asdrubael Vect]

MisterJB wrote...

Dark Korsar wrote...
so Orzammar Chantry incident was Dwarven fault?

Brother Burkel opens a Chantry and many dwarves willingly convert. The more conservatives elements of dwarven society feel threatened by this and restrict the rights of Andrastians. Brother Burkel tries to conduct a peaceful protest over this and his killed on the streets. The Divine hears of this and is angered, rightly so. Sources claim she considers an Exhalted March but nothing ever happens.
So, yes. The blame should be placed entirely on the dwarves here.

we perfectly know who was these many dwarves..they are castless(others not have any reasons to join) so you can understand why they can be attacked by someone......but we know that dwarves not care about religion so they have no reasons to do that because some crazy dwarves started to "believe" in Maker

especially Dwarves have good realationship with Tevinter Empire(who have their Imperium Chantry who not have any problem with Dwarves  and who not send their missioners to Dwarves)

but who was the sourse of problem with Missioner Burkel? and who really have reasons to attack Andrastian dwarvens and especialy kill brother Burkel?(and remember who send him to Orzammar and why), and how especially Orlais Divine would perfectly know about this?(i am not belive that this is just rumors from Orzammar to Ferelden and to Orlais, this is can be only Chantry spy who informed Divine...but for what reason Orlais Divine would be intrested in such "news" about death of just one brother)

Orlais Chantry awareness and reaction about death of one Ferelden brother would make sense only if Chantry was really  want and wait for this incident in Orzammar to start their Exalted march, so it only make sense for Chantry to kill Brother Burkel for their "Holy mission" they can made this by themselfs(they can kill son of Vicont and ambassadors without problem) or with their Carta mercenaries

we know that Orlais Chantry pays to Carta criminals for lyrium supply and other stuffs


but even without Brother Burkel we may have incident with Orzammar non Chantry circle and Chantry again will start Exalted march because Orzammar-dwarven kingdom have some mages without Orlais Chantry Controll

and we know how Orlais Chantry send their missioners to Dalish clans 

and how Сhantry apply to the missionaries of other religions

and we know what Orlais Chantry do with  non-Orlais Chantry religions and cultures...you can believe only in Orlais Chantry teachings, other teachings even about Maker is false and must be destroyed with all methods

so think again who is to blame

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 25 mai 2013 - 05:52 .

[Dave of Canada]

Dark Korsar wrote...

ORLY?

If you believe one side of the story, yes. Don't give me the "elves are right!" bull****.

so Orzammar Chantry incident was Dwarven fault?

Yes. Dwarves killed a peaceful Chantry follower.

so sister Petrice actions was Qunari fault?

No. The Qunari trying to cleanse Kirkwall was, however.

so Chantry incidents with dalish clans was Elven fault?

Yes. The Dalish remain in Chantry lands and have apostates as their keepers, their behavior is no different than brigands and cause strife with local lords.

or Mage VS Templars was mages fault?

Yes. Read Asunder.

we already know and see how Orlais with their Orlais Chantry work, so people stop being blind hypocrites

How is it being blind hypocrites, might I ask?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 mai 2013 - 06:51 .

[Aolbain]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Of course not. But the fact that the humans unjustly ethnic cleansed the Dales in the Glory Age doesn't make the notion of elves using ethnic cleansing on Orlais in the Dragon Age any less unjustified. The Dales weren't even their original homeland, Orlesians have lived there twice as long as the elves ever did.

"Humans" aren't a single monolithic political entity so fact that humans also rule in other far off nations wouldn't mean much to a Orlesian or anyone else that the elves try to evict.

Not that I'm opposed to the elves getting another nation of their own, but if they try to build it somewhere that's already inhabited then they are going to cause problems for the rest of Thedas and harm a lot of innocents.

This, pretty much. ****y behavior 700 years ago (ethnical cleansing of the Dales) does not justify ****y behavior today (hypotetical ethnical clensing of southern Orlais).

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...

[quote]Dark Korsar wrote...

ORLY?[/quote]

If you believe one side of the story, yes. Don't give me the "elves are right!" bull****. [/quote]

Dark Korsar might simply believe that an imperialistic empire that has conquered nations since it's inception may have, perhaps, conquered the nation of the Dales. Their past in conquering Kirkwall, Nevarra, and Ferelden does not really dissuade some of us from thinking it's entirely plausible. The Orlesian Empire was even created when Drakon launched a series of Exalted Marches against his neighbors to create an empire under the worship of the Maker. We also have the historical entry that the Exalted Marches against Tevinter labelled them as "heathens", which doesn't really do much to dissuade some of us from considering that the Dalish historical account of the fall of the Dales is plausible.

That said, if the downtrodden elves can be given a chance to reclaim the occupied kingdom of the Dales from the Orlesian Empire, then I'd be willing to help them.

[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...

[quote]Dark Korsar wrote...

so Orzammar Chantry incident was Dwarven fault? [/quote]

Yes. Dwarves killed a peaceful Chantry follower. [/quote]

I suppose it's the fault of the specific dwarves who killed this condescending Andrastian, although I could never tolerate his views enough to assist Brother Burkel in spreading his repugnant and intolerant religion to the people of Orzammar.

[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...

[quote]Dark Korsar wrote...

so sister Petrice actions was Qunari fault? [/quote]

No. The Qunari trying to cleanse Kirkwall was, however. [/quote]

Plenty of blame to go around with that situation. Hawke should have killed Petrice when he had the chance.

[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...

[quote]Dark Korsar wrote...

so Chantry incidents with dalish clans was Elven fault? [/quote]

Yes. The Dalish remain in Chantry lands and have apostates as their keepers, their behavior is no different than brigands and cause strife with local lords. [/quote]

If the Andrastian Chantry invaded the sovereign nation of the Dales with templars, then it isn't the fault of the elves, but rather the religious organization that started the war.

As for the latter comment, I guess the Dalish found it preferrable to travel the wilderness of Thedas rather than live in the sky, among the clouds.

[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...

[quote]Dark Korsar wrote...

or Mage VS Templars was mages fault? [/quote]

Yes. Read Asunder. [/quote]

The templars decided to hunt down mages because the mages refused to bend knee to the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order anymore. It isn't the fault of the mages that the templars are going to attempt to kill them because they democratically chose autonomy over subjugation.

[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...

[quote]Dark Korsar wrote...

we already know and see how Orlais with their Orlais Chantry work, so people stop being blind hypocrites [/quote]

How is it being blind hypocrites, might I ask? [/quote]

Focusing back on Orlais and their Chantry, they are certainly tied together. The Andrastian Chantry and the Orlesian Empire are symbiotically linked, and have been ever since the first Orlesian Empire, Kordillus Drakon, created the Chantry of Andraste based on his particular Cult of the Maker views. It's why the Andrastian Chantry supported the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dark Korsar wrote...

ORLY?

If you believe one side of the story, yes. Don't give me the "elves are right!" bull****.

so Orzammar Chantry incident was Dwarven fault?

Yes. Dwarves killed a peaceful Chantry follower.

so Chantry incidents with dalish clans was Elven fault?

Yes. The Dalish remain in Chantry lands and have apostates as their keepers, their behavior is no different than brigands and cause strife with local lords.

or Mage VS Templars was mages fault?

Yes. Read Asunder.

we already know and see how Orlais with their Orlais Chantry work, so people stop being blind hypocrites

How is it being blind hypocrites, might I ask?

1)i am believeing only in what i see, and i can't believe in Orlais Chantry bull**** about...

a)Dales(who was isolated themselfs from Orlais for 3 hundred years) army who was in Orlais territorys during damn blight....that not make any sense because Dales need to protect their own territorys and people from darkspawns by their own forces without any help(they not have help of Grey Wardens or others countries and did not ask about it as no one ask about Dales help)

b)human sacrifices...because thats too not make sense because Dalish fully separated themselfs from Orlais humans and they never use and do not approve this type of blood magic, even Zatrian use only his own blood...and as we know most Blood Mages in 90% will not use human blood for magic rituals especially in rituals what have elven connections(Arlathan fires, eluvians)

с)and what elves attach first "defenseles Red Crossing villiage" and for no reason(and we not have anything about this mystical poor villiage)

and i am very good know about how Orlais with their Orlais Chantry work and what they do or can do for their reasons...Orlais Chantry specially send their missioners and Templars in isolated Dales lands and they perfectly would know what they are doing

if you want to kick some in the face  you would be sure that this is not be come to nothing, the same is here Orlais Chantry specially sent Missioners and Templars in Dales to play the victims the same they did in Orzamar

2)think again, who and for what reason killed him and how Orlas Chantry would know about death of one of some hundreds Ferelden Chantry brothers especially in Orzammar who not have open borders for anyone...if death(we not know who actualy killed him and dwarves after said that it was not their fault) of one Chantry brother(as we see anyone can easily kill him(he was not have any protection and live near castless and Carta(remember that Orlais Chantry pays Carta for Lyrium and other stuff)) its a reason for Orlais Chantry to start Exalted March...so we can claim that Chantry specialy kill this Brother for starting war

3)Thedas was never Chanty lands and would never be...like Sten said to Loghain "You have a strangely short view of eternity, then."

4)say it for Circle mages with no rights and their danger slave circle life, and i read asunder and Templars make things only worst but who cares if mages war with Templars was started before their official council and claiming war

The final fight is about to begin, and in the end, there can be only one side.

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 25 mai 2013 - 09:03 .

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ausstig wrote...
THE ELVES STARTED THE WAR!

According to Orlais and the Chantry, who have every reason to lie.

Actually they really don't.  Orlais hasn't lied about any of their other conquests, hell they're proud of them, so why would they lie about this one?  The Orlesians aren't the ones with a history of playing the victim, they much prefer to play the righteous conqueror.

As for the topic questions I see the Dalish more or less keeping the government they have, each clan would become like a province with the Keepers forming a ruling Council.

I don't see conflict arising among the elves as those who don't want to follow Dalish ways (which would cause the most conflict I'd think) would just not go or, if they find out after arriving that it's not really for them, leave.

[Sir JK]

DPSSOC wrote...

I don't see conflict arising among the elves as those who don't want to follow Dalish ways (which would cause the most conflict I'd think) would just not go or, if they find out after arriving that it's not really for them, leave.

Why on earth would the elves not be attracted by an elven kingdom? A place where they'd be accepted for that they are and not shunned? A land of promise, freedom and acceptance? No alienages? No persecution? Never being called knife ear?
Unless they're told absolutely horrendous stuff about the new kingdom (and why would they? who would want to stop them... except Tevinter slavers?), there'd be a mass exodus.

And once they've left their alienages there's no going back. Remember, travel is not easy.

So there'd be a massive influx of elves who'se only cultural link to one another is that they're nominally andrastian, who'se only lingual link is the orlesian spoken in the Chantry and who're united by the fact that the dalish look down on them.
Some will happily adopt the dalish way of life. Some will not. But going back they will not either.

The real interesting question is what would happen to them.