164 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Seriously, if the concern is that you want a homeland for Dalish elves where they can worship their unhelpful Creators and generally spread lies about humans, why would you put it next to Orlais? You know, the place where the Chantry is housed? The Rome to Tevtiner's Byzantium? "I'm worried about religious freedom, let's shack up next to a country of evangelicals!".

The Dales themselves have no special meaning to the Dalish or City Elves. Arlathan did, but the Dales they just were given after assistance through conquest.

I mean,if the Elves were given Par Vollen, were kicked out by Orlais, and then the Qunari invaded, are you going to moan incessantly about how the Qunari need to move? Do you think they are going to put up with the words of idiot bas who can't manage good pr to save their lives?

[Hurbster]

Whatever happens to the elves, odds-on they will spend half the game moaning about it.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Seriously, if the concern is that you want a homeland for Dalish elves where they can worship their unhelpful Creators and generally spread lies about humans, why would you put it next to Orlais? You know, the place where the Chantry is housed? The Rome to Tevtiner's Byzantium? "I'm worried about religious freedom, let's shack up next to a country of evangelicals!".

The Dales themselves have no special meaning to the Dalish or City Elves. Arlathan did, but the Dales they just were given after assistance through conquest.

I mean,if the Elves were given Par Vollen, were kicked out by Orlais, and then the Qunari invaded, are you going to moan incessantly about how the Qunari need to move? Do you think they are going to put up with the words of idiot bas who can't manage good pr to save their lives?

There is no Rome to Byzantium in this universe, Orlais isn't nearly so far-reaching. Also, if the country goes down in flames, there'll be nothing really to worry about for the Dalish, will there be?

Of course, reclaiming Arlathan would be better, but also probably more difficult.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

There is no Rome to Byzantium in this universe, Orlais isn't nearly so far-reaching. Also, if the country goes down in flames, there'll be nothing really to worry about for the Dalish, will there be?

Of course, reclaiming Arlathan would be better, but also probably more difficult.

Uh, the White vs. Black Divines?

And if Orlais goes down in flames, the Dalish better pucker up for Papa Qun.

But you aren't answering the question as to why the Dales are so important as opposed to any other plot of land in Thedas.

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

^Wulf :

Isn't the land south of Ferelden, past the Kocari Wilds, Uncharted Territory? As they're all on the same continent, there's no way to escape *all* humans, but there's a difference in settling near barbarian tribes and settling next to established nations.

Well it's uncharted presumably because it's arctic.  So I'm not sure how habitable it's likely to be.

The Boots of the Frozen Wastes codex talks about barbarians living there and eking out an existence, along with stories from the Chasind of various beasts of horror that lurk in those arctic netherlands.

[Stella-Arc]

I came back after a break and my thread turned into a elves-rights-to-reclaim-their-land vs human-rights-to-keep-occupied-land argument. While it is entertaining and frustrating at the same time to see this same debate over and over again, my thread isn't about that. 

It's about an hypothetical homeland of the elves and the problems that could arise between the city elves and the dalish as a result. While I'm sure humans are living in occupied Dales, the main discussion isn't about them. I deliberately left them out because I knew that an elves right vs humans right "debate" would pop up. 

The "right" (or choice) to take someones land, culture, language, religion and way of life is abhorrent and no matter what the cause, it's never justified. In the Dragon Age universe, this goes for all races. 

The discussion of land loss and reclamation of said land loss is a discussion that isn't black and white and in our own world, such a topic is controversial. 

As an indigenous person and a cultural anthropologist, I can tell you this: the solution will never be right or wrong. So please, let's keep the thread on topic, 'kay? 

Edit: Forgot to add quotation marks. 

Modifié par Stella-Arc, 27 mai 2013 - 04:34 .

[Sutamina]

It's about an hypothetical homeland of the elves and the problems that could arise between the city elves and the dalish as a result.

ok what happens after the problems are found out?

The right to take someones land, culture, language, religion and way of life is abhorrent and no matter what the cause, it's never justified. In the Dragon Age universe, this goes for all races.

Its a choice not a right

As an indigenous person and a cultural anthropologist, I can tell you this: the solution will never be right or wrong. So please, let's keep the thread on topic, 'kay?

give us more

[Stella-Arc]

Sutamina wrote...

It's about an hypothetical homeland of the elves and the problems that could arise between the city elves and the dalish as a result.

1. ok what happens after the problems are found out?

The right to take someones land, culture, language, religion and way of life is abhorrent and no matter what the cause, it's never justified. In the Dragon Age universe, this goes for all races.

2. Its a choice not a right

As an indigenous person and a cultural anthropologist, I can tell you this: the solution will never be right or wrong. So please, let's keep the thread on topic, 'kay?

3. give us more

1. ..........are you really asking me that question?

2. I forgot to add quotation marks. My bad.

3. If you mean about reclaiming a homeland...no. As I said, my thread isn't about that. If not, please specify. 

Modifié par Stella-Arc, 27 mai 2013 - 05:29 .

[LobselVith8]

Stella-Arc wrote...

I came back after a break and my thread turned into a elves-rights-to-reclaim-their-land vs human-rights-to-keep-occupied-land argument. While it is entertaining and frustrating at the same time to see this same debate over and over again, my thread isn't about that. 

It's about an hypothetical homeland of the elves and the problems that could arise between the city elves and the dalish as a result. While I'm sure humans are living in occupied Dales, the main discussion isn't about them. I deliberately left them out because I knew that an elves right vs humans right "debate" would pop up. 

The "right" (or choice) to take someones land, culture, language, religion and way of life is abhorrent and no matter what the cause, it's never justified. In the Dragon Age universe, this goes for all races. 

The discussion of land loss and reclamation of said land loss is a discussion that isn't black and white and in our own world, such a topic is controversial. 

As an indigenous person and a cultural anthropologist, I can tell you this: the solution will never be right or wrong. So please, let's keep the thread on topic, 'kay? 

My apologies for my part in all that. Focusing back on the original topic, it's likely there could be a mass exdous to a new elven homeland. The same is certainly true for the elven Warden who becomes the Bann of the Alienage, where people flock to the Alienage from all over for a hopeful opportunity to have a better life. I believe the same would be true for a homeland where the elves believe they can establish themselves as equals among each other, although I think there would be many things to consider.

Namely, we have many different types of elves, as Sir JK once pointed out. I'm going to butcher her post a little and point out the many different types of elves who we would need to consider possibly living alongside the different clans of Dalish in a hypothetical homeland:

- the lavish and extravagant Orlesian elves
- the death-inspired Nevarran elves
- devout Ander elves
- freeminded Fereldan elves
- diverse Marcher elves
- trading Antivan elves 
- Rivaini elves

The inevitable clash between cultures would be a factor, as well as religion, since we would have the elven beliefs of the Creators and the Andrastrian faith of the Maker, as well as possibly Qunari belief in the Qun. 

As I once said, I'd like to see the stories that can be told about all these different elves across the continent coming together in a new homeland where elves won't be limited or oppressed, and dealing with their differences while they build a new homeland for their people.

[Aolbain]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Stella-Arc wrote...

I came back after a break and my thread turned into a elves-rights-to-reclaim-their-land vs human-rights-to-keep-occupied-land argument. While it is entertaining and frustrating at the same time to see this same debate over and over again, my thread isn't about that. 

It's about an hypothetical homeland of the elves and the problems that could arise between the city elves and the dalish as a result. While I'm sure humans are living in occupied Dales, the main discussion isn't about them. I deliberately left them out because I knew that an elves right vs humans right "debate" would pop up. 

The "right" (or choice) to take someones land, culture, language, religion and way of life is abhorrent and no matter what the cause, it's never justified. In the Dragon Age universe, this goes for all races. 

The discussion of land loss and reclamation of said land loss is a discussion that isn't black and white and in our own world, such a topic is controversial. 

As an indigenous person and a cultural anthropologist, I can tell you this: the solution will never be right or wrong. So please, let's keep the thread on topic, 'kay? 

My apologies for my part in all that. Focusing back on the original topic, it's likely there could be a mass exdous to a new elven homeland. The same is certainly true for the elven Warden who becomes the Bann of the Alienage, where people flock to the Alienage from all over for a hopeful opportunity to have a better life. I believe the same would be true for a homeland where the elves believe they can establish themselves as equals among each other, although I think there would be many things to consider.

Namely, we have many different types of elves, as Sir JK once pointed out. I'm going to butcher her post a little and point out the many different types of elves who we would need to consider possibly living alongside the different clans of Dalish in a hypothetical homeland:

- the lavish and extravagant Orlesian elves
- the death-inspired Nevarran elves
- devout Ander elves
- freeminded Fereldan elves
- diverse Marcher elves
- trading Antivan elves 
- Rivaini elves

The inevitable clash between cultures would be a factor, as well as religion, since we would have the elven beliefs of the Creators and the Andrastrian faith of the Maker, as well as possibly Qunari belief in the Qun. 

As I once said, I'd like to see the stories that can be told about all these different elves across the continent coming together in a new homeland where elves won't be limited or oppressed, and dealing with their differences while they build a new homeland for their people.

Our earlier disagreements asides, that would be awesome. Maybe even awsomier (its a word now) than the game where we had to play elves, partaking in the elven revolution (I'm thinking Dragon Age 5: Revolution). Of course, there would still be social injustices, but what (fictional) country is fun without those?

Modifié par Aolbain, 27 mai 2013 - 03:36 .

[Harle Cerulean]

I doubt there would be elves who openly follow the Qun. Spies hidden among the regular population, yes, but otherwise, no. Because if they're openly followers of the Qun, they'll be living with other Qunari, where their race doesn't matter squat. Therefore, they would have no incentive to leave and go to the new elven homeland. If they did leave, they'd be vashoth, because they'd be abandoning their roles among the Qunari.

Which isn't to say a population of vashoth elves who packed up and left because there's now something that seems even better than the Qun wouldn't be interesting! But on the other hand, I'm not sure how many of those there would be. The Ben-Hassrath seem pretty adept at brainwashing their converts, even the unwilling ones.

I think the various cultures of city elves from different countries could mix and blend pretty well overall; I don't think Orlesian elves would be all that 'lavish and extravagant', though.  Maybe the ones who were pampered servants to the very wealthy, but the majority of Orlesian city elves are going to be just as dirt poor as those in Ferelden and Kirkwall.

Modifié par Harle Cerulean, 27 mai 2013 - 06:21 .

[Stella-Arc]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Stella-Arc wrote...

I came back after a break and my thread turned into a elves-rights-to-reclaim-their-land vs human-rights-to-keep-occupied-land argument. While it is entertaining and frustrating at the same time to see this same debate over and over again, my thread isn't about that. 

It's about an hypothetical homeland of the elves and the problems that could arise between the city elves and the dalish as a result. While I'm sure humans are living in occupied Dales, the main discussion isn't about them. I deliberately left them out because I knew that an elves right vs humans right "debate" would pop up. 

The "right" (or choice) to take someones land, culture, language, religion and way of life is abhorrent and no matter what the cause, it's never justified. In the Dragon Age universe, this goes for all races. 

The discussion of land loss and reclamation of said land loss is a discussion that isn't black and white and in our own world, such a topic is controversial. 

As an indigenous person and a cultural anthropologist, I can tell you this: the solution will never be right or wrong. So please, let's keep the thread on topic, 'kay? 

My apologies for my part in all that. Focusing back on the original topic, it's likely there could be a mass exdous to a new elven homeland. The same is certainly true for the elven Warden who becomes the Bann of the Alienage, where people flock to the Alienage from all over for a hopeful opportunity to have a better life. I believe the same would be true for a homeland where the elves believe they can establish themselves as equals among each other, although I think there would be many things to consider.

Namely, we have many different types of elves, as Sir JK once pointed out. I'm going to butcher her post a little and point out the many different types of elves who we would need to consider possibly living alongside the different clans of Dalish in a hypothetical homeland:

- the lavish and extravagant Orlesian elves
- the death-inspired Nevarran elves
- devout Ander elves
- freeminded Fereldan elves
- diverse Marcher elves
- trading Antivan elves 
- Rivaini elves

The inevitable clash between cultures would be a factor, as well as religion, since we would have the elven beliefs of the Creators and the Andrastrian faith of the Maker, as well as possibly Qunari belief in the Qun. 

As I once said, I'd like to see the stories that can be told about all these different elves across the continent coming together in a new homeland where elves won't be limited or oppressed, and dealing with their differences while they build a new homeland for their people.

It's alright and thank you.

About your points, I can see either a cultural renaissance or a civil war taking place. In my opinion, such diversity could potentially create instability especially if religion ever takes a hold which I'm sure would. With the Andrastian faith of the Maker there could be some fear of mages if a form of government would comprise of them. That in of itself could cause problems. That religion could also clash with the belief of the Creators and if there are any Qunari elves in an elven homeland, what is it to say they are loyal to their brethren or their Qunari brethren? Especially if there is a demand of the Qun?

Besides a civil war there could also be a revolution. 

Harle Cerulean wrote...

I doubt there would be elves who openly follow the Qun. Spies hidden among the regular population, yes, but otherwise, no. Because if they're openly followers of the Qun, they'll be living with other Qunari, where their race doesn't matter squat. Therefore, they would have no incentive to leave and go to the new elven homeland. If they did leave, they'd be vashoth, because they'd be abandoning their roles among the Qunari.

Which isn't to say a population of vashoth elves who packed up and left because there's now something that seems even better than the Qun wouldn't be interesting! But on the other hand, I'm not sure how many of those there would be. The Ben-Hassrath seem pretty adept at brainwashing their converts, even the unwilling ones.

I think the various cultures of city elves from different countries could mix and blend pretty well overall; I don't think Orlesian elves would be all that 'lavish and extravagant', though.  Maybe the ones who were pampered servants to the very wealthy, but the majority of Orlesian city elves are going to be just as dirt poor as those in Ferelden and Kirkwall.

That could also be a possibility but what if there is a demand of the Qun? The Qunari wish to convert every race and if there are some elves willing to spy, for all we know, they could also be willing to fight. But you might be right. Any Qunari elves probably wouldn't risk going to an elven homeland.

[Sir JK]

Stella-Arc wrote...
That could also be a possibility but what if there is a demand of the Qun? The Qunari wish to convert every race and if there are some elves willing to spy, for all we know, they could also be willing to fight. But you might be right. Any Qunari elves probably wouldn't risk going to an elven homeland.

Mind though, that a new elven nation might have burned bridges with their neighbours (Orlais (definantely), Ferelden (perhaps) and the Avvar (probably). With no outside help and a population in great need of purpose, the Qunari have a pretty ripe target.

And not just militarily, an isolated dales is an easy target for "benevolent" traders and friends. Would they really turn the Qunari away if they come with trade and military assistance? Once the foothold is established, the path is open for the Qunari to introduce their ideas and create a strong viddathari merchant class.
One the Dalish might even look towards as allies against the hypothetical elven Chantry.

Of course, the possibilities are endless... We don't even know if there is an uprising at all, let alone in the game. It could just be rumours after all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Qunari doesn't have a track record of making friends, before they convert though. I think that if they wanted to convert the Dales, they would just wipe out every last one of the Elves who didn't want to convert, and then convert the rest. No one would come to the aid of the Elves, so it would be an easy conquest.

[Eveangaline]

The Dalish got some land back, if that was your request at the end of DA:O