284 réponses à ce sujet

[KiwiQuiche]

While I'm not a big fan of DA2, I'm not a big hater. True, it did fall on it's face, but it was entertaining in many different areas, such as combat, dialogue and some hilarious out adventures Hawke could do.

But I've noticed a trend in Bioware games that aren't really making me that happy. It was the fact the protagonists in the latest games of Bioware, such as ME3 and DA2 are, to put it bluntly, stupid. I'm not going to drag ME3 into this, but anyone who's played it would know the kind of stupid crap Shepard does throughout the game.

They were better with it in DAO; true your Warden could do stupid crap but you usually had to go for it and try going that route. Or have a Guide Dang It moment where you stuff up due to doing something wrong in the wrong order and it all goes to smash like trying to shank Flemeth 'cause you think she's just a crazy hobo.

You could quickly pick out 'Weylon' was lying while doing the Ashe's quest line, either by trying to go into the backroom or having a high enough cunning. You have the option of telling Irving about Jowan's plot with Lily to break out of the Tower.  In Haven you can easily pick up on the craziness of the peoplem while snooping and kill the whole lot of them when you yell at them about it. With Anora you can pick up on her lies and slyness and manipulate her into helping you.

Then DA2 came along and I was eager to have some more opportunties to show Thedas my PC was a magnificent bastard. But then I played it and I found out Hawke was...kinda dumb. One of my main dislikes in DA2 was Hawke's extreme stupidity and obliviousness. Sure, some of the stupidity was needed for plot development, but if you have to make the hero a moron for the story, it isn't very good writing.

Unless you like playing as a dumb character. Personally I don't. It just makes me really dislike said character and wish they would die for their stupidness. I started to get more and more irriatated while playing DA2 due to Hawke's incompetence and stupidity. She blatantly ignore things or would just sit on her ass while someone crazy happened. It seems all Hawke was good at was killing people and she failed in every other regard.

Ol' Sister Petrice! How's the Chantry doing? I'm really glad you set me up to try and flame in a war. Cool, I can give you a few threats, but you go ahead and waltz out that door; not like you'll start even more sh!t down the line or anything.

Hello mum, how's it hanging? Someone gave you white lilies? The same kind a serial killer has be giving to single women? You want to start dating? Okay, have fun with that!

A strange note where I found the guy who made mum a zombie thing. Who is this mysterious O person? Hmph, well good thing I don't know any powerful mages or First Enchanters who's name start with O or anything.

A Qunari spy with loads of really secret information which could cripple Qunari actions in Thedas? Oh I'll just sit here while she runs way, lol my bad.

Hey Isabela, isn't it weird how your ship wreak and the Qunari's are at the same time? In the same storm? And they are looking for something really valuable and you are looking for something really valuable that you stole and you won't go into the Qunari compound. Who cares, I won't confront you or anything despite you acting really suspicious.

Anders, you are acting crazier than usual. Why are you hiding explosives all over the Chantry? Never mind, I bet you won't go all loony and explode it or something.

So my main worry for DA3 is that I'll get stuck with another stupid protagonist who sits around doing stupid things for story sake. Who will ignore really obvious sh!t and problems but doesn't do anything about it. Who is forced to be dumb for the sake of progressing the tale of DAI. I don't think I could tolerate that again.

You can do stupid crap in DAO, but at least that's usually due to user failure and you can side-step it next time if you are care (Lol Dragon Mountain Gong anyone?) but in DA2 Hawke was just stupid and seemed to fail at everything and let incredibly valid threats, like Tallis, Petrice and Corypheus walk off without an issue, or stand by while incredibly obviously clues are stuffed in their face.

So please Bioware, please don't make the PC for DAI an idiot. Please don't make me want to punch them for their moronic behaviour and oblviousness. Please don't make them stupid simply for story sake.

Do any of you guys agree? Do you want a more...intelligent protagonist? How? Or did you like Hawke stuffing up all the time?

I'll close with the stupidest thing I ever heard Hawke say, during that memorable quest Isabela gives you to help her friend the poison-merchant. Hawke says this gem to him after she discovers what is in the crate and how he intends to sell it;

"But it's poison. It kills people!"

Yeah, like you didn't kill over twenty people to get to the crate with the poison in it, ******.

[Dabrikishaw]

I think the main problem with Hawke's agency is the fact that the player gets to learn what certain characters are doing ahead of time like Anders' bombing the chantry. Without that, Hawke seems legitimately surprised instead of idiotic.

[KiwiQuiche]

Dabrikishaw wrote...

I think the main problem with Hawke's agency is the fact that the player gets to learn what certain characters are doing ahead of time like Anders' bombing the chantry. Without that, Hawke seems legitimately surprised instead of idiotic.

True. That and you can tell him to stuff it if you really want. But the ingredients he wants, if you know your lore you know they are used in explosives.

But yes, I kinda can forgive that bout of stupidity, but not all the rest.

[Fishy]

I had forgotten about this. In DA:O you had stuff like persuasion and intimidation check and BioWare completely removed this in DA2. Which suck bad .. You also had mini investigation cutscene like the one in the ruins inside the Brecilian forest. They removed all this kind of stuff. Or Investigation quest which actually required reading. Or puzzle sequence which was completely removed from DA2.

Or the full detailed page of statistic ... Man they removed a lot of stuff in DA2. They also removed all the discussion you could have anywhere with your companion and different question could be asked depending of your location.. They removed so much stuff.


Edit.
Actually it's untrue. There's a puzzle during the nightmare thing quest in DA2 ... But it's was nothing like the Ashes Quest.

Modifié par Suprez30, 23 mai 2013 - 11:22 .

[DatOneFanboy]

didnt read the OP so much irrelevant BS in it,

Alot of the mistakes have been acknowledged by bioware already. im sure they are going to do something about them.

i wouldnt keep your hopes up cause if u complain about hawke being too stupid, im sure you will have plenty of other things to complain about when Da:I comes out

[Sifr]

Except, the things you're pointing out are things that happened over the course of several years, not all at once, so it's somewhat understandable that Hawke didn't particularly put the pieces together? Can you blame them, given all the mad stuff they have to deal with?

Hawke travels with apostates, criminals and is generally trying to keep a reasonable low-profile in Act I. How exactly would trying to deal with Sister Petrice go exactly? Are we supposed to believe that the authorities would trust the word of mercenary over that of a Chantry Sister? Even if Aveline was there, the conspiracy to incite trouble with the Qunari would be swept under the rug! Hawke couldn't do anything!

Consider that it's been several years since Hawke's father's death and they seem fine with the idea of their mother dating. Why would they question her running late with her mysterious suitor? Hawke both respects her privacy, wants her to be happy and probably isn't trying to think what she might be upto?! Note that they only freaked out the moment they found out about the White Lillies, immediately realising who their mother was with and realising that the killer was once again active in Kirkwall, after lying low for three years.

How many people do you know with names starting with O? Unless Hawke carries around a book with Orsino's handwriting to match it with, this could have been anyone?!

The information contained information of spies and those who left the Qunari throughout Thedas. If this information got out, they'd all be in danger from reprisals or killed, even the ones who had left the Qunari and gone on to raise families. Hawke let her take the information as innocents could have died otherwise and they didn't want it on their conscience. It was a necessary evil.

Lots of people were stranded in the storm, besides Isabela and the Qunari. Besides, aren't pirates always on the look out for stolen loot?

I will grant you that Hawke dropped the ball with the Chantry, but they didn't know Anders was going to Guy Fawkes the place? Unless Anders was carrying barrels of gunpowder with them when they entered, Hawke probably thought that Anders was going to steal something to help in the ritual to seperate him from Justice, as they were planning to do?

And poison kills people in a particularly lethal and gruesome way, while Hawke kills people most of the time in simple self-defence? Plus they were thieves who'd stolen his/her clients cargo, meaning they were the bad guys in the situation and the poison, despite being dangerous, was going to be sold legally and above board?

How does any of these things make Hawke an idiot? It's clear they're a busy person, with a lot of things taking up their time and living in a particularly chaotic environment?

Modifié par Sifr1449, 23 mai 2013 - 11:29 .

[Fishy]

And when you do think about it. The combat in DA:O was superior in many way .. I remember playing the game for the first time at the releease day and making it to the ogre at normal difficulties with no healing left.

Took me several try to defeat it and lot of kitting. He was actually nasty and challenging. Grabbing me and kicking my Warden ass... Of course they nerfed the normal difficulty after, but it's tell you something about mainstreaming. Now that I doing another playthrough DA2. A very different game. it's like people had forgotten what made DA:O so great. They get it wrong. The combat system of DA:O at release was just perfect and challenging.

Bioware what have you done ? You did some stuff right, but ye messed way to much with what made the Ip so exquisite. Can't wait to see what they have done qwith DA3.. Will it be another massacre ?

They said they have watched Skyrim ... Seriously go play DA:O again .. Just to be certain. Just to be sure you don't pull off a monster.

Modifié par Suprez30, 23 mai 2013 - 11:32 .

[Shevy]

I have to agree with the OP. It was really annoying to play as Hawke who was naive and blind or just didn't give a **** till everything goes mad/crazy. "Yo, I slayed thousands of people, defeated the Arishok in a duel, but I'm too passive to try to get that letter from Tallis. I'm gonna accept her "nope"".

How much I hated this scene. Hawke is only good at annihilating half the population of Kirkwall.

[DatOneFanboy]

Suprez30 wrote...

And when you do think about it. The combat in DA:O was superior in many way .. I remember playing the game for the first time at the releease day and making it to the ogre at normal difficulties with no healing left.

Took me several try to defeat it and lot of kitting. He was actually nasty and challenging. Grabbing me and kicking my Warden ass... Of course they nerfed the normal difficulty after, but it's tell you something about mainstreaming. Now that I doing another playthrough DA2. A very different game. it's like people had forgotten what made DA:O so great. They get it wrong. The combat system of DA:O at release was just perfect and challenging.

Bioware what have you done ? You did some stuff right, but ye messed way to much with what made the Ip so exquisite. Can't wait to see what they have done qwith DA3.. Will it be another massacre ?

They said they have watched Skyrim ... Seriously go play DA:O again .. Just to be certain. Just to be sure you don't pull off a monster.

Oh god Dont turn this into a Action- VS -Strategy Thread , Plenty of people including me who couldnt enjoy Origins combat system unless i played as a warrior

Modifié par DatOneFanboy, 23 mai 2013 - 11:38 .

[Knight of Dane]

Suprez30 wrote...

And when you do think about it. The combat in DA:O was superior in many way .. I remember playing the game for the first time at the releease day and making it to the ogre at normal difficulties with no healing left.

Took me several try to defeat it and lot of kitting. He was actually nasty and challenging. Grabbing me and kicking my Warden ass... Of course they nerfed the normal difficulty after, but it's tell you something about mainstreaming. Now that I doing another playthrough DA2. A very different game. it's like people had forgotten what made DA:O so great. They get it wrong. The combat system of DA:O at release was just perfect and challenging.

Bioware what have you done ? You did some stuff right, but ye messed way to much with what made the Ip so exquisite. Can't wait to see what they have done qwith DA3.. Will it be another massacre ?

They said they have watched Skyrim ... Seriously go play DA:O again .. Just to be certain. Just to be sure you don't pull off a monster.

That's a matter of opinion mate.

Personally I never had any problems with Dragon Age: Origins, it's not harder nor easier.
And the combat as such hasn't changed one bit, it's only flashier.

[KiwiQuiche]

Stop de-railing my topic; this isn't about combat.

DatOneFanboy wrote...

didnt read the OP so much irrelevant BS in it,

Alot of the mistakes have been acknowledged by bioware already. im sure they are going to do something about them.

i
wouldnt keep your hopes up cause if u complain about hawke being too
stupid, im sure you will have plenty of other things to complain about
when Da:I comes out

Wow, love your contribution to the thread.

Sifr1449 wrote...

Except, the things you're pointing out
are things that happened over the course of several years, not all at
once, so it's somewhat understandable that Hawke didn't particularly put
the pieces together? Can you blame them, given all the mad stuff they
have to deal with?

Hawke travels with apostates, criminals and is
generally trying to keep a reasonable low-profile in Act I. How exactly
would trying to deal with Sister Petrice go exactly? Are we supposed to
believe that the authorities would trust the word of mercenary over
that of a Chantry Sister? Even if Aveline was there, the conspiracy to
incite trouble with the Qunari would be swept under the rug! Hawke
couldn't do anything!

Consider that it's been several years since
Hawke's father's death and they seem fine with the idea of their mother
dating. Why would they question her running late with her mysterious
suitor? Hawke both respects her privacy, wants her to be happy and
probably isn't trying to think what she might be upto?! Note that they
only freaked out the moment they found out about the White Lillies,
immediately realising who their mother was with and realising that the
killer was once again active in Kirkwall, after lying low for three
years.

How many people do you know with names starting with O?
Unless Hawke carries around a book with Orsino's handwriting to match it
with, this could have been anyone?!

The information contained
information of spies and those who left the Qunari throughout Thedas. If
this information got out, they'd all be in danger from reprisals or
killed, even the ones who had left the Qunari and gone on to raise
families. Hawke let her take the information as innocents could have
died otherwise and they didn't want it on their conscience. It was a
necessary evil.

Lots of people were stranded in the storm,
besides Isabela and the Qunari. Besides, aren't pirates always on the
look out for stolen loot?

I will grant you that Hawke dropped the
ball with the Chantry, but they didn't know Anders was going to Guy
Fawkes the place? Unless Anders was carrying barrels of gunpowder with
them when they entered, Hawke probably thought that Anders was going to
steal something to help in the ritual to seperate him from Justice, as
they were planning to do?

And poison kills people in a
particularly lethal and gruesome way, while Hawke kills people most of
the time in simple self-defence? Plus they were thieves who'd stolen
his/her clients cargo, meaning they were the bad guys in the situation
and the poison, despite being dangerous, was going to be sold legally
and above board?

How does any of these things make Hawke an
idiot? It's clear they're a busy person, with a lot of things taking up
their time and living in a particularly chaotic environment?

Bioware badly implemented the whole 'time moving on thing'.

How about just killing Sister Petrice and her Templar friend while they are in the house? They are doing that on the sly; no one would know and it would be easy to dump the bodies, rather than going and complaing to the Chantry who would do the usual; nothing.

Flowers which show up and Hawke doesn't question it. You figure investigating a murder where you find a dismembered corpse would leave a few clues lingering.

Someone who knows a powerful blood mage? Who obviously had to be a powerful mage? Who aids a mage who someone kept on escaping templars? Oh come on.

Tallis is a Qunari; she's gonna give that crap to the Qunari. All those people are going to die because Hawke let Tallis merrily skip off without a fight.

Isabela certainly was, yet you can't call her out on it.

Addressed that already.

Lol, what about Blood Mage Hawkes? What about Reaver Hawkes? And you can use poison yourself, you know. It was still an incredibly stupid thing to say.

Hawke was still a fool. Repetedly.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 23 mai 2013 - 11:47 .

[Fishy]

That the thing Datonefanboy. It's what bioware were good at Doing. A kind of RPG that only them can make. It's not just about action vs strategy. It's the whole core of the game. The little thing that made DA:O so unique. The first time I had my darkspawn explode in DA2 and head flying everywhere ... I was not so sure if I should cry or laugh.

[Fishy]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Stop de-railing my topic; this isn't about combat.

Actually it has everything to do with combat . They focused so much on the narrative and removed so much choice that Hawke became stupid.

[KiwiQuiche]

Suprez30 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Stop de-railing my topic; this isn't about combat.

Actually it has everything to do with combat . They focused so much on the narrative and removed so much choice that Hawke became stupid.

Except when people are going back to the "DAO vs DA2" combat arguments, which some are starting here.

[Fishy]

Knight of Dane wrote...

That's a matter of opinion mate.

Personally I never had any problems with Dragon Age: Origins, it's not harder nor easier.
And the combat as such hasn't changed one bit, it's only flashier.

Really ? Release day on PC .. It's was actually difficult. Maybe we don't have the same idea of what ''difficult' is. Of course it's an opinion. A video game is a whole set of idea and a whole set of opinion and their first opinion was the better one. It's what they were good at.  Has for DA2. COme on ... I was playing on on hard difficulty and I don't even have to pause or control anything else and the idea of ''fun', for me is not hiting a darkspawn 50 time with a great sword before he explode.

[Sifr]

Suprez30 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Stop de-railing my topic; this isn't about combat.

Actually it has everything to do with combat . They focused so much on the narrative and removed so much choice that Hawke became stupid.

So, you're saying that Story / Combat = Stupid protagonist?

Can someone explain that to me in mathematics that doesn't rely on Insane Troll Logic?

[wright1978]

Shevy_001 wrote...

I have to agree with the OP. It was really annoying to play as Hawke who was naive and blind or just didn't give a **** till everything goes mad/crazy. "Yo, I slayed thousands of people, defeated the Arishok in a duel, but I'm too passive to try to get that letter from Tallis. I'm gonna accept her "nope"".

How much I hated this scene. Hawke is only good at annihilating half the population of Kirkwall.

Agree would be nice if they could build in options to be more pro-active at times. Hawke at times was just overly blind/naive where there really should have been alternative player characterisation options.

[DatOneFanboy]

Sifr1449 wrote...

Suprez30 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Stop de-railing my topic; this isn't about combat.

Actually it has everything to do with combat . They focused so much on the narrative and removed so much choice that Hawke became stupid.

So, you're saying that Story / Combat = Stupid protagonist?

Can someone explain that to me in mathematics that doesn't rely on Insane Troll Logic?

1+1= Rainbow

[Wulfram]

I think that sometimes there's a bit of a clash between what's obvious to the player because they're fairly alert to story telling techniques, and know that most details in a story are there for a reason, and what's obvious to the character. I don't know if it would be especially believable for Hawke to pick up on the flowers from 3 years ago - was there a pattern or was it just the one woman who we knew got the flowers?

Also, it's hard with the current dialogue system to allow people to pick up on a clue without turning it into a massive red flag for every player.

And excluding all foreshadowing of major stuff wouldn't really be good writing.

But I do agree this sort of thing can be annoying.

[Boycott Bioware]

How about just killing Sister Petrice and her Templar friend while they are in the house? They are doing that on the sly; no one would know and it would be easy to dump the bodies, rather than going and complaing to the Chantry who would do the usual; nothing.

I agree, Hawke can assassinate a noble in day light and in public, and in front of Guard captain...no one know about it...why should Hawke cannot kill a Sister and a Templar in a building in the low desirability place?

Hawke also kill a group of Templars in a cave somewhere in the city...no one know who kill them...

[ComfortablyNumb]

OP - while I agree that Hawke could show a bit more intelligence/cunning/intuition (???), most of the things you're listing is simply metagaming. And hindsight is always 20/20.

[Shevy]

mrufka_z wrote...

OP - while I agree that Hawke could show a bit more intelligence/cunning/intuition (???), most of the things you're listing is simply metagaming. And hindsight is always 20/20.

I would argue the only thing the OP listed which needed metagame knowledge is Cory because to get that (possible) outcome you need knowledge of Darkspawn/Grey Warden information Hawke doesn't get during DA II.

The rest doesn't require out of game information. Isabela is looking for a valuable thing, the Qunari too. They both tanked during the same storm and Isabela refuses to go into the Qunari area. -> 1+1

The moment you were told the murderer was looking for wealthy single women and your mom mentions she met someone which was even before the flowers, I knew how this will continue. Maybe that's just because I played many RPG's and that's how storytelling normally goes, but I thought it was obvious.

I acknowledge it's difficult to provide dialogue options or even pro-active actions without going the "it's obvious to the extent every player notices it and the bad ending never happens" route. But it was really annoying to get from one mess into another I as a player noticed way before. Hi @ Anders

Modifié par Shevy_001, 23 mai 2013 - 12:35 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Shevy_001 wrote...

mrufka_z wrote...

OP - while I agree that Hawke could show a bit more intelligence/cunning/intuition (???), most of the things you're listing is simply metagaming. And hindsight is always 20/20.

I would argue the only thing the OP listed which needed metagame knowledge is Cory because to get that (possible) outcome you need knowledge of Darkspawn/Grey Warden information Hawke doesn't get during DA II.

The rest doesn't require out of game information. Isabela is looking for a valuable thing, the Qunari too. They both tanked during the same storm and Isabela refuses to go into the Qunari area. -> 1+1

The moment you were told the murderer was looking for wealthy single women and your mom mentions she met someone which was even before the flowers, I knew how this will continue. Maybe that's just because I played many RPG's and that's how storytelling normally goes, but I thought it was obvious.

I acknowledge it's difficult to provide dialogue options or even pro-active actions without going the "it's obvious to the extent every player notices it and the bad ending never happens" route. But it was really annoying to get from one mess into another I as a player noticed way before. Hi @ Anders

With Cory after his 'death', the remaining Warden then talks in the same manner as Cory; it would be fairly easy to simply kill said Warden in a 'better safe than sorry' scenario.

[Sifr]

I suspect that Varric may have added that aspect. It seems more likely to me, Larius/Janeka didn't appear to be possessed at the time, but since Legacy took place, as rumours of Corypheus' survival began to appear, Varric realised that they'd all been duped?

We know that Varric likes to indulge in the occasional embellishment and Orwellian editing, after all?

Modifié par Sifr1449, 23 mai 2013 - 12:45 .