284 réponses à ce sujet

[Urazz]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Given how many players play RPG PCs as self-inserts (I don't, but I consider the ability to do so an important measure of RPG quality), this story-telling technique was virtually guaranteed to offend.

But RPGs never let the player actually pre-empt this situation. The only difference with DA2 is that you're story is set over such a number of years it becomes absurd that the PC doesn't take action.

It depends on what kind of character the PC is.  From what I got in DA2 by default is that Hawke is just trying to survive and protect his/her family.  He/she is not trying to be a hero and solve everyone's problems so actively taking action on every little problem is definitely not going to happen.

[Hazegurl]

Urazz wrote...
You think Malcolm Hawke had the knowledge of all things about spirit possession and how to split them away from their hosts?  I don't think he did.  He obviously had the basic knowledge about spirits of the fade and taught that to his children but I doubt he had knowledge on how to do that.

Also, alchemy is not magic.  Hawke did not grow up in the circle where he had access to a lot of knowledge to learn about Alchemy and the finer details of magic.  He grew up in a farm in Lothering. So do you expect Hawke to have more knowledge about abominations and spirit possession than Anders who is Circle trained (had access to a library to learn about spirits), is possessed by a spirit, and is 'researching' how to split himself Justice up?

So at the most Hawke has a reasonable excuse to at least not call Anders out on the ingredients for the bomb.  After that you have the choice to believe Anders or not if you want when it comes to the Chantry.

I myself didn't recognize that Anders was making a bomb on the first part of the quest in my first playthrough but did catch on afterwards when he wanted to sneak into the Chantry and didn't help him on that part.

Malcolm Hawke doesn't have to have extensive knowledge about demons or what it takes to split them. But he knew enough to bind Corypheus and other demons. So yeah I'm sure he taught his children, especially his eldest, the dangers of demons and the consquences of possession. I would even say he knew more than Anders. I'm not even sure Anders even went through a Harrowing. But then again even mages who have are still dumb enough to let themselves be possessed. Anyway, Anders ran away from the Circle more times than anyone so I take his "Circle training" with heaps of salt. Malcolm was a junior enchanter. Anders had access to nothing when he came to Hawke about his plans. He's just running a clinic in low town and I doubt his mage underground had access to that info. 

And if it was accessible within the Circle then their wold be no need for a kill order on demon possessed mages. On my first playthough I had no idea Anders would making a bomb but i was highly suspicious about his claim that these ingredients could help him rid himself of Justice. Why because Anders states more than once that he has fused so much with him that he can't tell who is who. Now my Hawke has been killing everyone who has been possessed for a shorter amount of time than Anders. I saw no reason why he would be different. But nope, my Hawke couldn't bring any of his up...at least not that I could remember. i'm just glad I could call him out later and not help him.

[Wozearly]

Riknas wrote...

I find it distressing that a story-telling technique used to give the player a chance to anticipate future plot twists is being used as an excuse to gripe about the character that they're playing.

I don't entirely agree that in an RPG where you're aiming for immersion, that you want to give the player enough hints to piece together the future plot before the character does.

But in any event, the foreshadowing and reveal techniques were too obvious and too frequent. Many people, including companions, were suspiciously transparent from both the player and Hawke's perspective. Which becomes frustrating, because you're forced to blunder like a moron into situations that you could have tried to do something about, because the game didn't branch enough to allow you to pick a side *before* the big event if you'd identified it (e.g. sufficiently high friendship with one of the protagonists).

Someone earlier mentioned Haven from DA:O, and I'd agree that this is a good example of the 'blatant' reveal done well, as its clear to both the player and party that things aren't quite right, but you have the opportunity to make a decision on whether to act on your concerns or choose not to.


Either way, Bioware's foreshadowing at its finest was the big reveal in SWKOTOR. All of the evidence was, in principle, lurking in front of your eyes in the things that people said (or didn't say), but as each made perfect sense in its own context, it didn't trigger alarm bells. So when the reveal happens, it hits you and your character squarely between the eyes.

Modifié par Wozearly, 26 mai 2013 - 08:25 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Given how many players play RPG PCs as self-inserts (I don't, but I consider the ability to do so an important measure of RPG quality), this story-telling technique was virtually guaranteed to offend.

But RPGs never let the player actually pre-empt this situation.

Some do.  Some would let the PC seek out and kill the perpretator for his own reasons.  Some would allow the player to trigger relevant conversations in advance simply by using the right keyword.

Your argument stands if our frame of reference only includes AAA games made in the past 10 years, sure.  But why would that be true?

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Some do.  Some would let the PC seek out and kill the perpretator for his own reasons.  Some would allow the player to trigger relevant conversations in advance simply by using the right keyword.

Your argument stands if our frame of reference only includes AAA games made in the past 10 years, sure.  But why would that be true?

Why would our frame of reference including only games made in the last 10 years? Lots of reasons, but for this thread, I would say intellectual honesty. We should judge games by the same standard. 

I agree that games should allow players to pre-empt obvious plots/betrayals. But Bioware (and other RPG developers over the last 10 years, to take your time frame) have never allowed for this. So it's silly to contrast DA:O with DA2 as some kind of different design, when it just isn't. 

[Wozearly]

In Exile wrote...

I agree that games should allow players to pre-empt obvious plots/betrayals. But Bioware (and other RPG developers over the last 10 years, to take your time frame) have never allowed for this. So it's silly to contrast DA:O with DA2 as some kind of different design, when it just isn't.

I could have sworn I was able to investigate Weylon's suspicious behaviour through dialogue options and searching the house. My character didn't have to wait around gormlessly for Haven's villagers to attack them and then feign shock - they provoked it by deciding to find out what was going on for themselves.

When Ser Tamra warned me that nobles who had been loyal to Rendon Howe were conspiring against me, I had the option to dismiss it, act upon it, or consciously not act upon it. 

[In Exile]

Wozearly wrote...
I could have sworn I was able to investigate Weylon's suspicious behaviour through dialogue options and searching the house. My character didn't have to wait around gormlessly for Haven's villagers to attack them and then feign shock - they provoked it by deciding to find out what was going on for themselves.

When Ser Tamra warned me that nobles who had been loyal to Rendon Howe were conspiring against me, I had the option to dismiss it, act upon it, or consciously not act upon it. 

Your point about Weylon is well taken, but I disagree with you on the Awakening example. That's not really pre-empting a betrayal in-game - it's like what DA2 has you do with Gaspard. 

[Keeper of Light]

And here we go again... Hawke is on par with the Warden. Keep BSing OP.

[Amirit]

Hazegurl wrote...
 I'm not even sure Anders even went through a Harrowing. 

If you say something like this again you will be ignored by most of the DA players Seriously, Anders not only went through Harrowing (long quest about philactery? And this is only one hint even if we ignore direct discussion of this thing with Anders) but he was in the Fade with Warden, worked with Justice for a long time before merging. And in DA2 not a single time he mentioned his books, which Merrill is so curious about. Plus, Kirkwall is full of rare books and Anders mentioned he studied Tevinter's books as well .

However I do agree with you that mage-Hawke is supposed to know enough about spirits to catch that 
Corypheus transition. This and inability to take the scroll from Tallis makes it look like a piece of content was cut off, and we got only one ending where 2 were planned. 

Modifié par Amirit, 26 mai 2013 - 11:14 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Hawke seems to have visited Tvtropes, found the "Villains act heroes react" trope and decided to base his/her entire life on it.

[Hazegurl]

Amirit wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...
 I'm not even sure Anders even went through a Harrowing. 

If you say something like this again you will be ignored by most of the DA players ) Seriously, Anders not only went through Harrowing (long quest about philactery? And this is only one hint even if we ignore direct discussion of this thing with Anders) but he was in the Fade with Warden, worked with Justice for a long time before merging. And in DA2 not a single time he mentioned his books, which Merrill is so curious about. Plus, Kirkwall is full of rare books and Anders mentioned he studied Tevinter's books as well .

However I do agree with you that mage-Hawke is supposed to know enough about spirits to catch that 
Corypheus transition. This and inability to take the scroll from Tallis makes it look like a piece of content was cut off, and we got only one ending where 2 were planned. 

You mean I would get ignored by overzealous and overly dramatic Anders fans like you for simply making a guess about whether or not Anders under went a Harrowing. Okay.

And what does him having a phylactery have to do with whether or not he went through one? Jowan had one in Origins without going through it. All Circle mages had to submit one and him being in the Fade with the Warden is not a Harrowing that relies on him being tested as to whether he would fall prey to a demon or not if on his own inside the fade. I just figure that he probably didn't go through it because he constantly ran away from the Circle so I don't see how he would have time for one and also, fear of the Harrowing and failing could be a reason why he ran away so much.  Like I said before, I've killed mages for being possessed in a lesser amount of time than Anders. I don't care about what he studied, I have zero reason to believe Anders about this research that can separate him from a demon he has all but fused completely with. You have good arguments for believing him, but I never once believed him for the very reasons I am stating. And apparantly I was right from the start to not believe him anyway.  

[Amirit]

I wonder are you naturally so cruel or is it my only half made smile at the end of the sentence (fixed now) made you like this?

If the "guess" reveals total absence of lore knowledge - yes, it can force people to ignore someone who makes assumptions based on such guesses.

After the Harrowing Phylactery is moved to the central location where mages can not reach it. And that was the point of the quest of DAA (that central stock was moved). We also know he is a full mage (Circle mage) - not apprentice! - and it only happens after Harrowing. He run away 7 times and was brought back, not made tranquil for that. The only visible reason for that is by the law a mage who passed his Harrowing was free from that punishment. Actually he even says something like 'Thank the Maker they can't make you a Tranquil if you pass your Harrowing.' discussing his escapes.

Warden and Fade has nothing to do with Harrowing - my fault, I mixed it up in one paragraph. It has something to do with his knowledge about spirits. He studied daemons and spirits, you can get it from his party banters with Merrill and in other places.

My point was Anders is knowledgeable enough in the area of spirits and possession and we do see proves of that. Mage Hawke does not give us any clue about his\\her knowledge in this area but it does not mean Hawke knows nothing.

Modifié par Amirit, 26 mai 2013 - 11:40 .

[Riknas]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Yes, we want a less restrictive narrative.  Yes, we want more character driven choices.  But that then requires that the character be less well defined, not simply defined differently.

Sometimes I want a character with more initiative, but sometimes I want a character with less.  It depends on the character I've designed.  In DAO, the most rewarding character I played was someone who actively avoided ever making decisions (because he was afraid to do so, though he would never have admitted that).  He wanted other people to take control.  He always deferred to others' judgment when given the option.  And when he found himself alone, with no one else to make decisions for him (in the fade), he found the confidence to make decisions himself, which he then misused horribly because he had virtually no relevant life experience to inform his choices.

That was an excellent roleplaying experience, but I never would have had it if the Warden had been forced to exhibit any personality trait at all - there's effectively no chance BioWare would ever anticipate such a character, so the only way we can get to play one is if BioWare stays out of the way and lets us define our characters ourselves.

Ehhh... I mentioned that I was hesitant to pin it specifically on the character, namely because I thought someone would latch onto whatever word I said Hawke should be more of. Well, I guess there's some solace in being right. Regardless, a big reason why I didn't like hearing "Hawke is stupid" is not just because it's inaccurate, but it also suggests that our desire is for a specifically "smarter" protagonist, which is a lot harder to define than some people might think. And forcing your character to be more intelligent also makes the game more restrictive, epsecially if we want to play the more passive character that you described.

I suppose what I more meant to say was that our character should have more initiative options, rather than specifically being someone of more initiative. After all, it's not particularly difficult to put in passive or reactive options along with the more active ones. All you need is for the PC to do what someone else says or tells them to do, and was available in both Dragon Age games. Having said that, I think it's too much of a stretch to assume  I was actually saying that our character should only have different ways to interfere with key events, and not have the ability to defer or step back from a situation in any way.

Nevertheless, it's all well and good that you liked playing a colossal screw-up, but I have to disagree in telling the developer to stay out of the way and give such a narrow definition of what "real" roleplaying is. It's necessary to have some rails and guide lines so that the story can progress smoothly enough. Putting a focus on making the protagonist as undefined as possible is too much like buying a book with blank pages that says the subject matter and then tells you to write the rest yourself. Well thanks, but if I wanted to write a book I would apply for a job with them, or look for my own publisher.

-----

Also, to those that have said the clues were too heavy handed, I agree. The best plot twists by Bioware were in KOTOR and Jade Empire. There was very little sense of reward to correctly interpretting the foreshadowing because the game was more or less shouting to you what was on the horizon, rather than encouraging you to try and put smaller pieces together yourself.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Riknas wrote...


Also, to those that have said the clues were too heavy handed, I agree. The best plot twists by Bioware were in KOTOR and Jade Empire. There was very little sense of reward to correctly interpretting the foreshadowing because the game was more or less shouting to you what was on the horizon, rather than encouraging you to try and put smaller pieces together yourself.

Jade Empire's twist in particular was quite good.

That game really does deserve more love.

[BlueMagitek]

Jade Empire was pretty hot. So was Skies of Arcadia. I could make lewd comments about that game all day, if you know what I mean.

But yes, I played Steam edition and no regrets.

[Hazegurl]

Amirit wrote...

I wonder are you naturally so cruel or is it my only half made smile at the end of the sentence (fixed now) made you like this?

Make up whatever you like to feel offended cause I doubt my answer would satisfy you.  

If the "guess" reveals total absence of lore knowledge - yes, it can force people to ignore someone who makes assumptions based on such guesses.

People? Or just you who claim to speak for everyone on BSN? And you know what? All you have to do is say "Anders went through the Harrowing because in DAA his phylactery was moved and they move them after mages undergo the Harrowing" See it's that simple.

But then I would reply with this: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Anders

"During the Blight the templars moved their store of phylacteries to Amaranthine and Namaya learned that Anders' phylactery is among them."

Proving that all the phylacteries were moved because of the Blight...which then also turns out to be a total lie  as it was an ambush to capture Anders anyway.

Now who isn't paying attention? Now who is making assumptions and guesses without lore or in this case plot knowledge?

The only visible reason for that is by the law a mage who passed his Harrowing was free from that punishment. Actually he even says something like 'Thank the Maker they can't make you a Tranquil if you pass your Harrowing.' discussing his escapes.

That is the only clue we have that he may have had it and passed it. Thank you for providing that. I did try to look it up to see where it came from and only got that someone else posted it on BSN a year ago in response to someone asking if Anders ever passed his Harrowing (hm, looks like I'm not the only one left guessing on whether or not he had, who would have thunk it ). I have zero desire to replay Awakening just to see for myself.  but whatever, considering that my entire point is that Anders is in no way more knowledgable than Malcolm Hawke on demons, magic and so on. Which is still true regardless of whether or not he passed his Harrowing I don't see how this is even a big deal.

My point was Anders is knowledgeable enough in the area of spirits and possession and we do see proves of that. Mage Hawke does not give us any clue about hisher knowledge in this area but it does not mean Hawke knows nothing.

The fact that he let a spirit possess him proves that he's an idiot when it comes to spirits and demons and Merrill pretty much puts him in his place about his so called wishful thinking concerning spirits which pretty much shows that he isn't all that knowledgable on the subject.

Besides, I don't even get your point. Are you arguing that I should have believed Anders??

[Sylvius the Mad]

Riknas wrote...

Nevertheless, it's all well and good that you liked playing a colossal screw-up, but I have to disagree in telling the developer to stay out of the way and give such a narrow definition of what "real" roleplaying is. It's necessary to have some rails and guide lines so that the story can progress smoothly enough. Putting a focus on making the protagonist as undefined as possible is too much like buying a book with blank pages that says the subject matter and then tells you to write the rest yourself. Well thanks, but if I wanted to write a book I would apply for a job with them, or look for my own publisher.

I didn't say completely undefined.  I said as undefined as possible.  In a BioWare game, that would be as undefined as possible given the requirements of the story.

But that desire to limit the definition of the character should also inform the developers when they choose what sort of story they want to tell.

And he wasn't a screw up.  He was a realistic character with realistic failings.  He lied to himself, implicitly, about his own skills and characteristics.  Many of us do that on a daily basis, but heroic characters almost never do.  I wanted to see if I could play a character who was more like us and less like a classic hero.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 27 mai 2013 - 01:09 .

[Chiramu]

It's not Hawke's fault, the only reason Hawke was as dumb as they were in the game was because the writers didn't have enough time to rewrite any parts that would make Hawke stupid, so the game goes on with a dumb protagonist instead of doing a rewrite. It's in all of North American TV shows too, it's really annoying to watch an episode play out when the answer is staring us all in the face.

It's poor writing. All that needs to be done is proper and thorough writing, and all the writing team needs to be at the same standard and if there's a piece that is not at the same standard as the rest then there needs to be extra work to bring it up to standard. These should be high standards, not low standards.

[KiwiQuiche]

Chiramu wrote...

It's not Hawke's fault, the only reason Hawke was as dumb as they were in the game was because the writers didn't have enough time to rewrite any parts that would make Hawke stupid, so the game goes on with a dumb protagonist instead of doing a rewrite. It's in all of North American TV shows too, it's really annoying to watch an episode play out when the answer is staring us all in the face.

It's poor writing. All that needs to be done is proper and thorough writing, and all the writing team needs to be at the same standard and if there's a piece that is not at the same standard as the rest then there needs to be extra work to bring it up to standard. These should be high standards, not low standards.

Yes, I really hope they change this in DAI- it just makes me angered towards the PC for standing around doing jack or acting like a moron when it's really obvious.

And writing is the meat of a RPG. I've always felt games like Skyrim, which loads of people rant to about DA, fail dismally in terms of writing, yet you are granted the freedom to do as you please. That and they are fairly pretty games lmao

[Bleachrude]

I'm not sure why white lillies would setup any alarm bells after 3 years. It kind of hinges on the fact that NOBODY in Kirkwall was receiving white lillies in the same timeframe and now that's hard to believe.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

TBH I'm not really a fan of Dragon Age 2 but Hawke has waaay less stupid moments than Shepard, Jack's mission from ME3 stands out most prominent in my mind as Shepard being at his most stupid, why was he using the butt of the rifle to smash the window when all he had too do was shoot it.

[Patchwork]

Amirit wrote...


My point was Anders is knowledgeable enough in the area of spirits and possession and we do see proves of that. Mage Hawke does not give us any clue about hisher knowledge in this area but it does not mean Hawke knows nothing.

Mage Hawke probably knows as much about demons, spirits and possession as Bethany. Both Merrill and Anders can test the templar but Bethany doesn't know how to. Bethany and Hawke's knowhow is limited to what Malcom knew and what he had time to teach them. While Merrill and Anders had access to the Circle and Dalish's resources.   

[IanPolaris]

Bleachrude wrote...

I'm not sure why white lillies would setup any alarm bells after 3 years. It kind of hinges on the fact that NOBODY in Kirkwall was receiving white lillies in the same timeframe and now that's hard to believe.

Hasn't been three years.  You (can) find out about White Lilies from Gascard as well as Emric, and your mother receives some within days (same scene).  If it were my mother or sister, I'd be somewhat alarmed.

-Polaris

[Plaintiff]

It's not really clear how much time passes between major story quests, so Hawke's mother could be receiving the lilies the next day or several weeks later.

Neither DA game is any good at telegraphing how time actually passes. DA:O certainly doesn't feel like it takes a long time at all.