284 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

IanPolaris wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

I'm not sure why white lillies would setup any alarm bells after 3 years. It kind of hinges on the fact that NOBODY in Kirkwall was receiving white lillies in the same timeframe and now that's hard to believe.

Hasn't been three years.  You (can) find out about White Lilies from Gascard as well as Emric, and your mother receives some within days (same scene).  If it were my mother or sister, I'd be somewhat alarmed.

-Polaris

The quests are First Scarifice (which happens three years before), Prime Suspect and All that Remains. In First Scarifice Carrac asks Hawke to find his wife and that she received white lillies her favorite flower. Hawke saves Emeric from an attack and he tells about the other missing women and about the lillies. Hawke is not given the opportunity to warn his mother.

Three years later in Prime Suspect  Aveline asks Hawke to speak to Emeric to shut him up because the city guards were embrassed when they raided the DuPris estate. Emeric had continued his investigation.

Emeric asks Hawke to go to the DuPris estate. Hawke finds DuPris who tells him about the killer and the white lillies. Hawke can decide to kill DuPris or let him go.  If Hawke returns home during this time nothing is amiss. Hawke again is not given the opportunity to warn his mother. It has nothing to do with stupidity. (unless you consider writer oversight).

When Hawke returns to the Gallows. Moria is there in Emeric's place. A letter supposely sent by Hawke told Emeric to meet him in the alleyway. Emeric is attacked and killed by shades. 
Hawke returns home now his mother is missing. Bodahn informs Hawke about his mother receiving white lillies that leads to All that Remains.

[Riknas]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I didn't say completely undefined.  I said as undefined as possible.  In a BioWare game, that would be as undefined as possible given the requirements of the story.

But that desire to limit the definition of the character should also inform the developers when they choose what sort of story they want to tell.

And he wasn't a screw up.  He was a realistic character with realistic failings.  He lied to himself, implicitly, about his own skills and characteristics.  Many of us do that on a daily basis, but heroic characters almost never do.  I wanted to see if I could play a character who was more like us and less like a classic hero.

It's impossible to determine how undefined, "undefined as possible" is. Considering we have arguments over voiced protagonists, silent protagonists, character facial expressions, key word dynamics, full text, paraphrase or no paraphrase...those are way too many factors for such a broad request. Knowing that some stories require more character definition than others only compounds the issue. Really, the request of "more choices" is better in the roleplaying department than "less definition".

"Be as undefined as possible" and then, "write a story that requires little definition" is ridiculously vague, and ultimately unfair to the developers trying to make something that is:

1) Financially successful
and
2) Enjoyable to them, bothing designing and playwise.

I know you're of the mindset to argue that keywords, and silent protagonists with no facial expression are preferable. However, I find that to be unappealing and more akin to a social puzzle game than a role playing one.

-----

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't explicitly trying to insult your character either, and it's an interesting concept. I had a friend that played someone that was afraid of the spotlight and deferred to others as well, however he went off the idea that when it came down to the wire, he finally managed to stand up and make the right choices himself. The idea that your character actually started making terrible choices after he was forced to struck me as comical.

Modifié par Riknas, 27 mai 2013 - 04:43 .

[Tinxa]

Wozearly wrote...

Riknas wrote...

I find it distressing that a story-telling technique used to give the player a chance to anticipate future plot twists is being used as an excuse to gripe about the character that they're playing.

I don't entirely agree that in an RPG where you're aiming for immersion, that you want to give the player enough hints to piece together the future plot before the character does.

But in any event, the foreshadowing and reveal techniques were too obvious and too frequent. Many people, including companions, were suspiciously transparent from both the player and Hawke's perspective. Which becomes frustrating, because you're forced to blunder like a moron into situations that you could have tried to do something about, because the game didn't branch enough to allow you to pick a side *before* the big event if you'd identified it (e.g. sufficiently high friendship with one of the protagonists).

Someone earlier mentioned Haven from DA:O, and I'd agree that this is a good example of the 'blatant' reveal done well, as its clear to both the player and party that things aren't quite right, but you have the opportunity to make a decision on whether to act on your concerns or choose not to.


Either way, Bioware's foreshadowing at its finest was the big reveal in SWKOTOR. All of the evidence was, in principle, lurking in front of your eyes in the things that people said (or didn't say), but as each made perfect sense in its own context, it didn't trigger alarm bells. So when the reveal happens, it hits you and your character squarely between the eyes.

I agree, kotor reveal was awesome. Even if you puzzled it out, it made you feel clever and not your character feel stupid

I hope they return to trying to surprise the player and not give him obvious hints several times so even the stupid players get it (She recieved WHITE LILIES before she disappeared. All women got WHITE LILIES. The killer sends them WHITE LILIES.... Oh hi Hawke, your mother just got some WHITE LILIES! dun dun dunnnn).

Also the villains could be a little less obvious. Sister Petrice was unlikable from the start so you knew something would go wrong eventually. I'd like to see some innocent looking NPC like Nathaniel's or Keran's sister turn out to be the bad guy.

[IanPolaris]

Realmzmaster wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

I'm not sure why white lillies would setup any alarm bells after 3 years. It kind of hinges on the fact that NOBODY in Kirkwall was receiving white lillies in the same timeframe and now that's hard to believe.

Hasn't been three years.  You (can) find out about White Lilies from Gascard as well as Emric, and your mother receives some within days (same scene).  If it were my mother or sister, I'd be somewhat alarmed.

-Polaris

The quests are First Scarifice (which happens three years before), Prime Suspect and All that Remains. In First Scarifice Carrac asks Hawke to find his wife and that she received white lillies her favorite flower. Hawke saves Emeric from an attack and he tells about the other missing women and about the lillies. Hawke is not given the opportunity to warn his mother.

Three years later in Prime Suspect  Aveline asks Hawke to speak to Emeric to shut him up because the city guards were embrassed when they raided the DuPris estate. Emeric had continued his investigation.

Emeric asks Hawke to go to the DuPris estate. Hawke finds DuPris who tells him about the killer and the white lillies. Hawke can decide to kill DuPris or let him go.  If Hawke returns home during this time nothing is amiss. Hawke again is not given the opportunity to warn his mother. It has nothing to do with stupidity. (unless you consider writer oversight).

When Hawke returns to the Gallows. Moria is there in Emeric's place. A letter supposely sent by Hawke told Emeric to meet him in the alleyway. Emeric is attacked and killed by shades. 
Hawke returns home now his mother is missing. Bodahn informs Hawke about his mother receiving white lillies that leads to All that Remains.

Gascard will also tell you that the victims are sent White Lilies and that isn't over a period of three years.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I also think this is due to sloppy writing, specifically (I am given to understand anyway) until almost the last minute, there was a way involving Gascard and keeping him alive that you could save your mother...and not all those connections were removed.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 27 mai 2013 - 07:21 .

[IanPolaris]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Emeric asks Hawke to go to the DuPris estate. Hawke finds DuPris who tells him about the killer and the white lillies. Hawke can decide to kill DuPris or let him go.  If Hawke returns home during this time nothing is amiss. Hawke again is not given the opportunity to warn his mother. It has nothing to do with stupidity. (unless you consider writer oversight).
.

I consider the inability to tell your mother about a serial killer that targets women like your mother to be writer enforced Hawke stupidity.

-Polaris

[Wozearly]

Riknas wrote...

I suppose what I more meant to say was that our character should have more initiative options, rather than specifically being someone of more initiative. After all, it's not particularly difficult to put in passive or reactive options along with the more active ones. All you need is for the PC to do what someone else says or tells them to do, and was available in both Dragon Age games.

It's necessary to have some rails and guide lines so that the story can progress smoothly enough. Putting a focus on making the protagonist as undefined as possible is too much like buying a book with blank pages that says the subject matter and then tells you to write the rest yourself.

The trick is to make any critical railroading both rare and sufficiently credible, and the less-critical railroading sufficiently divergent in "feel" that two different characters feel very different emotionally as a playing experience, not just in gameplay terms (ie, this time I'm an archer rather than a warrior).

DA2 pushed a lot of this into the dialogue and the companions (too much, IMO) which led to some absolute gems, but also some facepalms when the dialogue was suspended by cutscenes, when companions decided to go off the deep end, or when the game effectively said "Sorry, out of development time, skipping along a few years here, now you need to go to this place. Don't argue, its plot critical, now move along, nothing to see here..."

DA:O wasn't actually much different in approach on the surface. A lot was in the dialogue, although the advantage of a greater variety of response options due to no VA meant that it was somewhat easier to forge a more unique personality. The main quests' railroad paths had several points of divergence, even if they returned to the same general path. The outcomes felt more divergent, the side quests coming back to bite you more memorable...it all just seemed more polished and better knitted together. A mix of Brent Knowles and more development time, methinks.

KOTOR2 is, IMO, one of the really good examples of this. The "Bioware cliche" was used for the main quest path, but both the outcomes and key elements of the journey were incredibly different for light-side and dark-side players. Your companions would be different, they'd act differently towards you and your motivations for achieving the same ends were completely different (and opposed).

I suppose the contrast I'm trying to draw is between DA:O and KOTOR1/2, where I remember more about the character's story and emotion than I do about what it felt like to try a different build, and DA2 and ME2/3 where I remember that my Soldier Shepard played differently to my Adept Shepard. Oh, and one was nasty and the other nice. I remember that my 2H Hawke played differently to my Archer Hawke, but I only really recall their dominant tones and not the differences in their stories (with the exception of Mage Hawke, who was more stand-out).

[kinderschlager]

 read the OP kinda has a point....hawks a bloody moron


i seem to be forgetting something though. who's this quanari spy woman?

Modifié par kinderschlager, 28 mai 2013 - 11:31 .

[LobselVith8]

kinderschlager wrote...

 read the OP kinda has a point....hawks a bloody moron


i seem to be forgetting something though. who's this quanari spy woman?

Tallis, from the last Dragon Age II DLC - Mark of the Assassin. You're pretty much railroaded into helping her and the Qunari, no matter what.

[kinderschlager]

LobselVith8 wrote...

kinderschlager wrote...

 read the OP kinda has a point....hawks a bloody moron


i seem to be forgetting something though. who's this quanari spy woman?

Tallis, from the last Dragon Age II DLC - Mark of the Assassin. You're pretty much railroaded into helping her and the Qunari, no matter what.

didn't get that DLC, was of no interest to me. the DA2 DLC was nothing compared to awakening

[Todd23]

Larius after hawke defeats Corypheus - "Learning you are, Hawke":devil:
Hawke - "Thank you":)

Modifié par Todd23, 29 mai 2013 - 01:23 .