284 réponses à ce sujet

[Shevy]

Or Hawke is extremely smart and devious and secretly the antagonist of DA II disguised as a "hero" who brings everything to collapse which he touches on the cost of others and in the end he becomes the ruler of Kirkwall.

[Fiery Knight]

The OP hit the nail on the head. Both Shepard and Hawke are incredibly stupid protagonist. They are not pro-active, and tend to often sound "cool" instead of smart.

Main reason however why theytend to be stupid is thatbothShepard and Hawke are a mix between RP characters, and individual characters, which tends to make it hard tomake smart characters,if you are not talented enough.

[CELL55]

Cutlasskiwi wrote...

Kind off hard to take OP seriously. 13 stupids, really?

Anyway, I disagree with most of what you wrote. While I agree that Hawke had some problems and things could have been handled better I had way more problems with the Warden. Or at least, creating a Warden that I didn't hate and could finish the game with. I loved Hawke right away.

I loved that Hawke wasn't the big hero that ended up saving the world. Hawke is the only protagonist that I have played that utterly failed their goals. He was just a guy that ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time. He tried his best to maintain status quo but everything fell apart right infront of him, even though he tried his best to maintain the situation when tension rose. But sometimes things are bigger than the normal protagonist. There was nothing he could do. And after the "big thing" happened in act 3 he had to make a very tough call in a situation that already was horrible and had spun out of control. The plot utterly broke him down, devastated him. It would have been very interesting to be able to pick him back up in an expansion and see the effects it all had on him. I can't think of a protagonist that I've had such a journey with. I enjoyed every minute of it.

So no, I don't agree that Hawke is stupid.

Y'know, this really reminds me of something. What was it again? Oh yeah, the marketing: "RISE TO POWER". Boy, they sure fooled me. <_<

[zeypher]

yea intelligent protagonist is more of a pipe dream now. Seeing shepard, hawke in the last 2 games i expect to get another moron as a player character. Just accept it

[Fiery Knight]

zeypher wrote...

yea intelligent protagonist is more of a pipe dream now. Seeing shepard, hawke in the last 2 games i expect to get another moron as a player character. Just accept it

Yeah, I don't think BW really can write intelligent characters anymore.

And lol at people saying "Hawke not being save the world type of hero = not stupid". Hawke is stupid, he is not pro active, who sits on his ass for years while sh*t happens in the city. 

[Uccio]

OP, agreed. Hawke could have disposed Petrice in that shack and dumbed her body to the (supposedly) secret tunnel. He did nothing. Rogue/Warrior Hawke could have killed Cullen and his handyman with his sister and the war dog easily thus avoiding her capture to Circle. Instead he did nothing. Tallis trolled Hawke big time, "here boy*whistling*, catch this!". And Hawke did nothing.

There were many moment in the game where I was left frustrated and annoyed because of the inability to do anything with obvious issues. Especially since I usually play mage, a freedom loving blood mage. So I had hard time to understand what was the reason after loosing all the siblings and mother for Hawke to stick around in Kirkwall keeping himself in obvious and dire danger.

Modifié par Ukki, 23 mai 2013 - 03:16 .

[Uccio]

double

Modifié par Ukki, 23 mai 2013 - 03:16 .

[GodWood]

(Ignoring the fact that an RPG should allow ME to decide whether my PC is a moron or not) I don't necessarily mind my protaganist being an incompentent moron nor do I mind having the protaganist be a failure however what I didn't like was the game failing to recognise him as such and the likelihood that subsequent games won't either.

I'm confident that any later references to Hawke will treat him as some uber-special badarse and not the stupidly incompetent fool he was.

Modifié par GodWood, 23 mai 2013 - 03:39 .

[Lord Issa]

I would love a more intelligent protagonist. Don't agree that the writers can't write smart characters, but I wish that they would give us the chance to be as manipulative and cunning as an NPC. There's nothing worse than realizing you're being played but you don't have the option to call out the liar.

[BouncyFrag]

You make a good case. Your Isabella and Hawkes mother's death examples hit the nail on the head. "Lol Dragon Mountain Gong anyone?"...I didn't even notice the gong my first time through the game.

[ComfortablyNumb]

Shevy_001 wrote...

mrufka_z wrote...


Really? Someone you know starts seeing somebody. And you instantly go "but there's a murderer in the city, they must be targeting my friend/mother/sister?" Sorry, I'm not buying that.
You can suspect. But only after the flowers are delivered it's made really clear. 

As I mentioned, only from the information the game provided I can see that it's difficult to come to that conclusion, but I played many RPG's before and watched many crime series and my job is kind of a forensic nature so I was biased. For me it was clear the moment the "date" dialogue happened.

Also, the ingredients Anders used and Sebastian's "rumors" made the Anders thing pretty clear too.

So you're still using this as a example of Hawke supposed stupidity, even though you admit your conclusions were based on RL and not game?...

As for Anders - not everybody has Sebastian as a companion.
And not every Hawke would look up what could actually be done with those ingredients. Some (especially those on friendship path) would rather assume that Anders is really trying to get rid of Justice. Because up to that point Anders didn't actually do anything to undermine Hawke's trust.*

*It could (and maybe should) be different for rivarly path, when Hawke could be more suspicous. But to include such distiction, would probably be too problematic gameplay wise. And you still have possibility to tell Cullen that you suspect Anders is up to something. Though I can agree, that this option was too downplayed.

[K_Tabris]

Sutekh wrote...

-snip-
The mother thing: We're immersed in pop culture full of serial killers stories. We're very familiar with that kind of plot, used to profiling stories, procedurals etc... So, the lilies thing immediately raises a red flag "That looks very serial killerish" and we connect the dots. Again, Hawke wouldn't. Not in a world where abominations are a more tangible concern than weird men offering flowers to vanishing women, where murder occurs in the streets on a daily basis (what we all the thugs attacks and all), and where profiling isn't even the remote idea of a possibility.

It's the very same thing as watching a horror flick and yelling at the screen "Don't go in the basement!!!".

Except that if Hawke completed the earlier quest for annoying Orlesian guy, then Hawke might remember that there was a serial killer who courts women with flowers. WHile Hawke may or may not remember, here is an opportunity for  players who want to RP a cunning/intelligent Hawke to recognize something.

I think the main issue of the game that caused Hawke to not think critically and appear 'dumb' is that many of the options available in earlier games, such as persuasion checks and multiple outcomes in side quests are taken away. I personally blame the dialogue wheel. It takes away options in conversation. As a result of its presence, many options seem to disappear. Shepard could pass certain persuaion checks, but that became a joke once her renegade or paragon points were high enough. Now that we have seen to different persuasion styles, I like the older one better. It worked better, imo. It gave me, the player a feeling that I had greater power over how my character developed in the story. 

[ComfortablyNumb]

BouncyFrag wrote...

You make a good case. Your Isabella and Hawkes mother's death examples hit the nail on the head. "Lol Dragon Mountain Gong anyone?"...I didn't even notice the gong my first time through the game.

I wrote about Hawke's mother earlier, so I won't repeat myself.

As for Isabela - unless you try to take her to the Qunari compound, there is nothing  really substantial, to make a connection.
 

[ComfortablyNumb]

KallianaTabris wrote...

Except that if Hawke completed the earlier quest for annoying Orlesian guy, then Hawke might remember that there was a serial killer who courts women with flowers.

But Hawke did make this connection - when s/he heard that mother received the while lillys. But that was after she was taken.

Unless she received is before as well, and it was mentioned (and I forgot)? In which case I would agree with you.

[Demoiselle]

Hawke: Hmmm... So I've threatened to kill this Qunari agent in every conversation with her since she was revealed, attempted to leave her and said that I want to have the scroll. BUT... shes refused to give me it, and the necklace shes thrown has made me totally disregard my just previously expressed desire to take the scroll. VIOLENTLY. I'm also just gonna watch her walk away alive with irritating plot armour so she can automatically turn up in Inquisition to bug the next protagonist.

No Varric, she did not 'have my nose'. My Hawke was just suffering from yet another reluctance to kill someone (who they have express hatred etc towards)so that they can come and mess up the plot later. (I'm looking at you Petrice.)

[Meatbaggins]

Um, to everyone using the flower example; when's the last time you played DA2? I just played it recently, and when Gamlen mentions that Leandra has gone missing, Hawke DOES bring up the serial killer if you pick the top dialogue option.

[Fallstar]

Shevy_001 wrote...

Or Hawke is extremely smart and devious and secretly the antagonist of DA II disguised as a "hero" who brings everything to collapse which he touches on the cost of others and in the end he becomes the ruler of Kirkwall.

It all makes sense now.

[Uccio]

Since Hawke was unable to catch the serial killer in first time there should have been a possibility to warn his mother, atleast.

[thebigbad1013]

Hmm it seems that a lot of people are complaining that Hawke is "stupid" just because he/she doesn't have all the answers, doesn't figure everything out immediately and doesn't solve every problem with a snap of his/her fingers.

Now while I agree that there are a few cases where the player should have been able to have a more pro-active Hawke, I strongly disagree with the notion that Hawke was stupid just because he/she wasn't a be all and end all hero who fixed everything with his/her heroic awesomeness.

Hawke was just a regular person who became involved with things that were much bigger than him/her and which would ultimately lead to disaster. That, to me, is the essence of the Dragon Age 2 plot and I, for one, absolutely loved the story. The game had it's issues but I really liked the fact that Hawke was just a regular person rather than someone who was born to greatness.

[Ianamus]

The problem I have with "calling people out" dialogue options is that occasionally I miss something, but if I see an option "Your lying! I have evidence" I'm probably going to click it, whether or not I actually picked up on it or not. It would have to be handled in a way so that only people who really have picked up on it will know who to speak to. 

As someobody said earlier, I think a lot of the problem is that things like Orision's letter and Anders ingredients are supposed to be hints for the player, not Hawke. I wouldn't be ssurprised if story-wise he/she never actually read them.

[Sutekh]

KallianaTabris wrote...

Except that if Hawke completed the earlier quest for annoying Orlesian guy, then Hawke might remember that there was a serial killer who courts women with flowers. While Hawke may or may not remember, here is an opportunity for  players who want to RP a cunning/intelligent Hawke to recognize something.

The annoying Orlesian guy happened three years before, and there's a difference between being "stupid", and not making remote connections from three-years old events. Plus, "Mom's dating and the guy sent flowers" doesn't automatically mean "Mom's pursued by a serial killer", unless you're paranoid, or Dexter.

Really, you can blame Hawke for not having a Sherlock Holmes level of awareness - you can even blame the writers for not giving us the opportunity to play Sherlock Hawke, but that doesn't make him stupid. At least, not in that quest.

Anyway, my point wasn't about Hawke's actual intelligence (or lack thereof), but that "serial killer" - a very modern concept - isn't what a fantasy medieval character would thought of first, if ever, but we do, hence the clash.

I also wonder whether he'd be perceived as stupid if he had succeeded in saving Leandra, even after having ignored those oh-so blatant hints.

[Plaintiff]

A lot of what you perceive as "stupidity" is actually just you forgetting that there is a world surrounding Hawke that we don't see. You also forget that, as the player of the game, you have knowledge that characters living inside it do not.

Like the stupid 'O' argument. There are a billion and a half names that start with O. Dozens, if not hundreds of 'O's could be living in Kirkwall. The only reason Orsino is the "obvious" culprit is because you, as the viewer, recognize the foreshadowing for what it truly is.

Hawke lives inside the narrative, he does not know that he is in a story, and does not have the benefit of your omniscience.

Also, Hawke never meets Orsino at any point prior to his mother's murder, so there's no possible way for him to make that connection.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 mai 2013 - 05:22 .

[Bardox9]

Something I've noticed about both DA and ME is the paragon types are optimistic to the point of stupidity. Renegade types are jerks, but their realist views tend to lead to the so called "smart choice" Not necessarily the best options, but the smart move in a given situation.

The good guy options feel right but almost always blow up in your face and make you look like a complete and proper idiot. The bad guy options make you out to be a monster, but the outcomes are usually better for everyone involved in terms of leaving behind a more stable world in the wake of your adventures.

[brushyourteeth]

1.) I don't think I want a protagonist that is perfect and never makes mistakes. That sounds boring. There were certain situations that frustrated me because you weren't given much power to respond (Anders and the big boom, for instance) but I never felt like Hawke was stupid.

2.) The OP was mean. You'd get a lot farther at least pretending to respect the writers.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 23 mai 2013 - 06:03 .