284 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

El-Oh-El

"Hawke should magically know that two substances he's never heard of before in his life are ingredients in an explosive compound, because in my headcanon he stays up all night reading textbooks about geology and chemistry."

[Sifr]

If we want to look at foolhardy moves;

Brings a dangerous apostate mage with them, frees a Qunari who slaughtered women and children, lets a woman who claims to have a vision from the Maker come with them, hires the assassin who just tried to kill them, wakes up a golem who killed her last master, hires a permanently drunk dwarf and performs a ritual to give an apostate a child with the soul of an Old God, then lets her walk away with said child...

And this is the actions of a full-on heroic, successful Warden?! Lets be honest, no matter how you spin it, the Warden made far more questionable moves than Hawke and in less than a year!

Modifié par Sifr1449, 23 mai 2013 - 06:01 .

[GodWood]

Sifr1449 wrote...
And this is the actions of a full-on heroic, successful Warden?! Lets be honest, no matter how you spin it, the Warden made far more questionable moves than Hawke and in less than a year!

All of those choices were optional.

[brushyourteeth]

Plaintiff wrote...

El-Oh-El

"Hawke should magically know that two substances he's never heard of before in his life are ingredients in an explosive compound, because in my headcanon he stays up all night reading textbooks about geology and chemistry."

I didn't know they were ingredients in explosives, but it didn't take a genius to know that he was up to no good.

"Here! Distract the Grand Cleric so I can hide what I've crafted in the Chantry! And don't ask questions, I don't want you to be implicated in anything that might happen!"

[Wulfram]

Hawke can take Anders to the Gallows and tell the Templars "Hey, this mage is plotting against the Chantry."

It's not really Hawke's fault if the Templar response is "eh, whatever", is it?

[ScarMK]

GodWood wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...
And this is the actions of a full-on heroic, successful Warden?! Lets be honest, no matter how you spin it, the Warden made far more questionable moves than Hawke and in less than a year!

All of those choices were optional.

Morrigan is the exception at first, but I'm pretty sure you can tell her to beat it too.

[IanPolaris]

How about Hawke after being named "Champion of Kirkwall" simply LETS Meredith become an illegitamate Viscount and does nothing about it for three solid years? I could accept it if we were told that Hawke tried and was brushed aside somehow.....but the 'second most powerful' person in Kirkwall should have more influence than that!

For that matter why in Act 3 does Hawke have to stay in Kirkwall at all? His family may well be gone, he is independantly wealthy,and he might even be a mage in a city being run into the ground by a Templar despot.

Why stay? I am not saying that all Hawkes would leave, but that should have been an option.

-Polaris

[brushyourteeth]

Wulfram wrote...

Hawke can take Anders to the Gallows and tell the Templars "Hey, this mage is plotting against the Chantry."

It's not really Hawke's fault if the Templar response is "eh, whatever", is it?

True, though I think that was a notable flaw in the game. The Templars would have jumped at any excuse to arrest Anders. Aveline, at the least, would have normally done something about it if she even had a hint.

Personally, my perfect playthrough Hawke would have finished the job right there instead of waiting till after the blast to kill Anders, but I realize that wouldn't have been everyone's decision and the developers aren't obligated to include every possible option for every possible quest in the game. Of course the explosion could have been unstoppable all the same, but I at least would have felt like the game let me do the best I could.

[Sifr]

ScarMK wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...
And this is the actions of a full-on heroic, successful Warden?! Lets be honest, no matter how you spin it, the Warden made far more questionable moves than Hawke and in less than a year!

All of those choices were optional.

Morrigan is the exception at first, but I'm pretty sure you can tell her to beat it too.

Yes, they were all optional, but they are still considered the best outcomes of the game overall!

[Boycott Bioware]

Imagine we playing a game where...

i. the hero must find an ancient relic where it can be use to make world in harmony always or bring world destruction

ii. the hero must find clues about the relic whereabouts, turnout to be it is someone have a map, the hero meet with that someone and find him, but get ambushed, the enemy manage to steal the map, the man only whisper a name of someone else who know

iii. the hero search the other guy and find his place, the hero saw someone left the room in a hurry, the hero get into the room find the guy is dead, got assassinated, but there's a clue on the wall, written in blood, showing a symbol

iv. the hero study the symbol, and somehow manage to find a place with that symbol

v. the hero fought through waves of enemies, and when reaching the inner sanctum where the as placed, the relic is gone

vi. the hero heard rumors that there will be a ritual in someplace and the ritual using some kind of relic

vii. the hero manage to find the place but it too late, the enemy already using the relic to bring destruction on earth

viii. the game end with the narrator said "the hero is missing somehow", the interrogator said "only the hero can save world now, we must find him!"

will you guys like this game?

Modifié par Qistina, 23 mai 2013 - 06:30 .

[Dave of Canada]

I liked Hawke for being the deconstruction of the hero, a brilliant move but it was done poorly. A shame they'll probably associate the whole deconstruction thing as a failure due to DA2's reception.

[Zarathiel]

Sifr1449 wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Sifr1449 wrote...
And this is the actions of a full-on heroic, successful Warden?! Lets be honest, no matter how you spin it, the Warden made far more questionable moves than Hawke and in less than a year!

All of those choices were optional.

Morrigan is the exception at first, but I'm pretty sure you can tell her to beat it too.

Yes, they were all optional, but they are still considered the best outcomes of the game overall!

Yeah, because aside from the Dark Ritual, you literally only listed the different companions you could have join.

[IanPolaris]

Qistina wrote...

Imagine we playing a game where...

i. the hero must find an ancient relic where it can be use to make world in harmony always or bring world destruction

ii. the hero must find clues about the relic whereabouts, turnout to be it is someone have a map, the hero meet with that someone and find him, but get ambushed, the enemy manage to steal the map, the man only whisper a name of someone else who know

iii. the hero search the other guy and find his place, the hero saw someone left the room in a hurry, the hero get into the room find the guy is dead, got assassinated, but there's a clue on the wall, written in blood, showing a symbol

iv. the hero study the symbol, and somehow manage to find a place with that symbol

v. the hero fought through waves of enemies, and when reaching the inner sanctum where the as placed, the relic is gone

vi. the hero heard rumors that there will be a ritual in someplace and the ritual using some kind of relic

vii. the hero manage to find the place but it too late, the enemy already using the relic to bring destruction on earth

viii. the game end with the narrator said "the hero is missing somehow", the interrogator said "only the hero can save world now, we must find him!"

will you guys like this game?

No. I had my fill of Mass Effect 3.

-Polaris

[Chanda]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

You can do stupid crap in DAO, but at least that's usually due to user failure and you can side-step it next time if you are care (Lol Dragon Mountain Gong anyone?)

Yeah, I remember my first playthrough of DAO, and I was like, "Hey! What's this gong for?" *click* ..."Oh crap!"

[Boycott Bioware]

A fail hero is a fail game, no one will like it, no matter want to justify it for "the story" sake...you know in India, there was audience running amok burning the cinema because the hero die, there cannot be a hero die in India, hero must live and God-like in India...since then all Indian/Hindustani movie never show a hero die except for historical story where the character really die in history

[Plaintiff]

IanPolaris wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Imagine we playing a game where...

i. the hero must find an ancient relic where it can be use to make world in harmony always or bring world destruction

ii. the hero must find clues about the relic whereabouts, turnout to be it is someone have a map, the hero meet with that someone and find him, but get ambushed, the enemy manage to steal the map, the man only whisper a name of someone else who know

iii. the hero search the other guy and find his place, the hero saw someone left the room in a hurry, the hero get into the room find the guy is dead, got assassinated, but there's a clue on the wall, written in blood, showing a symbol

iv. the hero study the symbol, and somehow manage to find a place with that symbol

v. the hero fought through waves of enemies, and when reaching the inner sanctum where the as placed, the relic is gone

vi. the hero heard rumors that there will be a ritual in someplace and the ritual using some kind of relic

vii. the hero manage to find the place but it too late, the enemy already using the relic to bring destruction on earth

viii. the game end with the narrator said "the hero is missing somehow", the interrogator said "only the hero can save world now, we must find him!"

will you guys like this game?

No. I had my fill of Mass Effect 3 every single adventure story ever.

-Polaris

[Hazegurl]

I agree OP. I hated standing by helpless to take action on my end for the sake of story continuation.

I knew Anders was up to no good while gathering the ingredients and I had no idea what it was for. When he asked me to help get him in the Chantry I turned him down big time because what does sneaking into the Chantry have to go with parting himself from Justice?? Nothing. I caught on to that right away and I'm glad the game at least allowed me to turn him down. However... I went to the grand Cleric but instead of saying. "I have a friend who is trying to sneak into the Chantry with ingredients to do harm" Hawke says "You have to get out, there are mages who are planning something, blah blah." Of course she wouldn't listen anyway. But still.

I knew the "O" was Orsino the moment I met Orsino himself. Why couldn't Hawke at least take that letter to the Templars? Or why couldn't he confront Orsino or inform Meredith about it later? I mean you're chasing a serial killer and discover that he's getting aid from a circle mage in Kirkwall who's name starts with O.

Go to Cullen or someone with the letter. "Perhaps there is a circle mage with access to the necromancy tomes the killer is using whose name begins with the letter O."

I knew Isabella had a connection to the Arishok the moment she refused to go into the compound. Yet it takes having to hear it from her much later. Oh such a surprise, there.

Don't want to help Tallis? Help her anyway! Then let her escape.

It would be nice to have a protagonist who isn't "Dumb for the story"

[cindercatz]

Except in the Warden's case, given the situation, those are probably the best choices available, and they panned out. You needed skilled people on the same page who weren't wrapped up in the civil war or otherwise trying to hunt you down for bounty or whatever the case. And most Wardens had pretty spotted recent pasts themselves, so why would they reject a gift horse in the mouth? The quickest option would've really been to travel to Orlais or similar, but the war situation would've made that a no go. It just doesn't explain it that way when you ask Alistair about it.

Hawke was just too passive given the situations they found themselves, and too ineffectual when you were actually trying to change something. The Anders thing wasn't an issue on my first playthrough, because my Hawke grilled him on it and agreed for the most part, and when Anders says basically 'You knew this was coming!', my Hawke was like 'yeah, you're mostly right', so that was fine. I was mostly incapable of accomplishing anything I wanted to with him, though. Everybody I helped inexplicable turned on me. Most everybody else I tried to save I couldn't. My primary motivation throughout the game was protecting Hawke's family, and that comes and goes and Hawke inexplicably settles in. It's just a major failing in the game more than a problem with Hawke the character.

But this is one of those things where they talked about trying to do better early on for DA3, so I don't foresee the same kind of problems again.

edit: dragon mountain gong, That was tough the first time, because I wasn't prepared, and that character didn't have a real reason to want that dragon dead, and I'm glad I saw what happens if you leave it alone in a slide. I don't think gonging it is a mistake though. I didn't skip it again. If your party is ready to take on a high dragon, and they're inclined, why wouldn't they call that one down to kill it?

Modifié par cindercatz, 23 mai 2013 - 07:09 .

[Sifr]

Zarathiel wrote...

Yeah, because aside from the Dark Ritual, you literally only listed the different companions you could have join.

Because I was pointing out that the Wardens reasons for accepting companions weren't particularly well thought out beyond the fact they were desperate!

Whilst optional, the reason I didn't list all the other stupid things you could have done, is because the fact remains that the supposedly correct way of completing the game, still has you do rather foolish things?

Modifié par Sifr1449, 23 mai 2013 - 06:57 .

[Tinxa]

Wulfram wrote...

Hawke can take Anders to the Gallows and tell the Templars "Hey, this mage is plotting against the Chantry."

It's not really Hawke's fault if the Templar response is "eh, whatever", is it?

Hehe. It's the same when you tell the Grand cleric about sister Petrice and she says "meh".

[rapscallioness]

I loved DA2 and I adored Hawke...

But I do confess to frustration for me at not being able to Do or Say anything. Like w/Anders. One of my Hawkes knew. Reported him to the Templars. Nothing came of that because it couldn't.

If something had come of it, then the big moment in act 3 would not have happened. And that was the story they wanted to tell.

I was hoping that if I worked things right, I could keep the Qunari from attacking Kirkwall. Hawke was very much aware that Isabela was involved in all this. You can even talk to the bartender in the Hanged Man and figure that out. However, Hawke never had the option to confront Isabela before it was too late.

Or even the option --if you could gain sum Arishok trust--of saying to him, "Hey, let me see if I can find this relic of yours. I can get around better in Kirkwall than you all." Not until it was too late.

But that couldn't happen because the story was that the Qunari attack Kirkwall and the big moment in Act 3 had to happen. That was the story. Shrugs.

In other games I don't think any thing of the whole set story thing, but with BW I do enjoy and hope for more from them. If I had things my way, more games would be like BW games, not the other way around.

However, I Iove Hawke. I don't think Hawke was stupid. I feel rather that Hawke was cheated out of the opportunity to be more for the sake of the particular story they wanted to tell.

[Mykel54]

I agree completely that DA2 lacked player agency.

If you report Anders to the templars, then something should have happened. Maybe he leaves Kirkwall, and only returns in the grand finale with other mage complices. If you warn Elthina, maybe the chantry is destroyed but she is actually saved. Maybe hawke can negotiate with the Arishok, agree to some pact, but then he Arishoks is assassinated (Petrice´s agents?) and his underlings attack Kirkwall anyway.

Something to make seems like what Hawke is doing in Kirkwall has at least some small effect, and is not merely advancing the already pre-defined events, with Hawke as the spectator.

[Grog Muffins]

StreetMagic wrote...

I only knew he was up to no good once the quest was finished and he said as much. I recall cutting him off there. I tried another playthrough where I helped him all the way through, simply because I wanted to unlock the black robes. Heh

My chemistry knowledge is virtually nonexitant so I did not make the connection that the Drake Stone and Sela Petrae could be substituted with sulphur and saltpetre, which means I was as oblivious as Hawke was while gathering them during my first playthrough. However, I didn't blindly nod when Anders asked me to distract the Grand Cleric. There might have been something in the Chantry that he needed to take for the potion but, if that were the case, why wouldn't he trust me to get it? He could tell me what it was and I would get it, seeing as my warrior Hawke would have been less suspicious. But then he got evasive... and went around in circles... and when I asked him if there really was a potion/ritual to free himself from Justice he admitted there wasn't and he said what he had planned wasn't going to end well for anyone.

It depends on what sort of Hawke you roleplay as, I guess, and, in this case, "stupidity" maybe isn't the right word, more like "agency"; you can't argue with him to stop or hand him over to Aveline/the templars before he has a chance to finish, you can't desperately warn the Grand Cleric, Cullen doesn't do anything when you shout in his face "AnderswillattacktheChantrydosomethingyouidiot!!". All sense of logic is disregarded for the sake of moving the story forward and makes you think Hawke doesn't have a sensible bone in his/her body.

[Mr.House]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I like to think of my Hawke as a lazy asshole who just couldn't be bothered to do anything unless there was money involved rather than an actual idiot.

That's how I rp her.