284 réponses à ce sujet

[BioFan (Official)]

I think you hit the nail on the head

[IanPolaris]

Plaintiff wrote...

No. I had my fill of Mass Effect 3 every single adventure story ever.

-Polaris

Wrong Plaintiff and it's not cool or kosher to alter other people's posts without consent.  Not every single adventure is that cliched or has those precise elements.

-Polaris

[EdwormN7]

I'm not sure I'd go as far as you but I do generally agree, based on the fact there are moments when I realize something, then a little down the road Hawke is like "Holy hell, I just realized this!" Or even worse when someone explains something to you, and I understand what they're saying but Hawke is like "I don't understand."

Those things did irritate me quite a lot.

[Fallstar]

Yeah when something is obvious to the player early in the dialogue, but the auto dialogue results in Hawke suggesting he doesn't understand yet to give the NPC the chance to clarify to ensure all players understand, is rather irritating. Since auto dialogue is already in DA3 the only option Bioware has there is to assume the players aren't stupid. Which won't happen as it is safer to assume the player is stupid than forcing the player to rely on inferences etc.

[TEWR]

Dabrikishaw wrote...

I think the main problem with Hawke's agency is the fact that the player gets to learn what certain characters are doing ahead of time like Anders' bombing the chantry. Without that, Hawke seems legitimately surprised instead of idiotic.

For some things, Hawke actually overhears things firsthand then is still surprised when it's revealed. For instance, if you bring Isabela with you when you first meet Javaris, she'll say she "felt the Qunari powder's sting". Then she also adamantly avoids the Qunari compound. Throw in her contradictory story on the matter of the relic -- in both dialogue with Varric and Hawke -- and a few other things and it's less a matter of player knowledge before Hawke's knowledge and more of a matter of Hawke just being brain dead and unable to piece together something together.

Not to mention how he forgets critical information regarding the White Lily Killer, and doesn't even bother to warn his own mother that hey, there's a serial killer out there who's targeting single, rich women! And he sends each victim lilies!

[Sutamina]

How would you feel if its explained that Corypheus had a subtle effect on a number of people in Kirkwall that prevented them from exercising common sense and pro-active behavior.
Aside from the stronger affect Corypheus had on mages and tainted beings nearby.
Please do poke holes in this.
Just floating this idea to see what comes of it.

[Zelto]

I think that from a story point of view what you said makes up a big chunk of the problem with DA:2. Act 1 Hawke is trying to keep a low profile, so the inaction in places makes sence, other than letting Petrice go (a companion will even state that you will see her again). I mean an agressive Hawke would kill her for setting you up. You can kill plenty of templars anyway why is she and her templar suddenly protected, it makes no sence. However by Act 2 you are no longer hiding. If your not a mage then Bethany is dead/a warden/in the circle, you can do what you like, yet you still do nothing to help anyone proactivly. You chase down the serial killer to the foundary, then don't bother to look around...

[Lord Gremlin]

Wow, OP literally read my mind.
Kinda creepy. But yeah, agree completely.

[Vlk3]

OP, I think your examples of Hawke acting stupid are exaggerated and you write them from a perspecItive of the person, who knows what happened later. Hawke is a hero, but even they make mistakes or just can't predict the future. I don't want a super hero who wins everywhere and also is the wisest, the strongest and the most intelligent being in all Thedas and beyond.
But as for ME3 I must agree that Shepard was just dumb at times and there was no good reason for his/her behaviour and that kind of protagonist I don't want to see again.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I want a PC who is exactly as smart or as stupid as I define him to be, and that should be able to change wildly from one playthrough to the next.

How do we get that?

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I want a PC who is exactly as smart or as stupid as I define him to be, and that should be able to change wildly from one playthrough to the next.

How do we get that?

I would say having the dialogue option to "reveal" what is supposedly the secret plot twist if you've investigated enough to uncover it (rather than dealing with iffy inferences from dialogue). This has the added bonus of tying it to exploration and investigation. 

The only complaint I can imagine is that players might stumble across the option without realizing it themselves, but when you think about it deeply, this is the right outcome. The character has acquired the knowledge. It doesn't matter if the player only realizes it when the option pops up in dialogue. RPing, the player still has a choice whether to use it - the character just has had the experiences necessary to draw the inference, but without player input, the PC isn't drawing the inference. 

[TK514]

Too much meta gaming in the OP.

There's no reason, for example to suspect anything is amiss with his mother's suitor. First off, Kirkwall is a highly populated city state. Tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people live there and hey, some of them are going to be sending their dates white lillies for no other reason than they're pretty. Hawke has absolutely no reason to even begin to suspect that his mother might be dating the killer Hawke has investigated for a handfull of days over the course of seven years. It would be require mental illness levels of paranoia for them to worry about it. Not to mention, the killer wasn't targeting only wealthy women, since the first target was a Mage from the Circle.

There's also no real reason to suspect Isabella to be directly responsible for the Qunari in Kirkwall. Hawke knows she's looking for a relic she was hired to transport. the Qunari spend years being silent on the matter of their arrival, if not outright lying about why they're hanging around. it's not until late in the game that Hawke has enough peices to put it together. Her not wanting to visit the Qunari compound is easily explained by the fact that she's Rivaini, and the war with the Qunari left thousands of her countrymen dead and part of her nation occupied. And that assumes you ever tried to take her into the compound with you. I didn't even know she wouldn't enter until I read it online, because I never had a reason to take her with me.

Corphy and possession. Anders and Merrill both have overtly demonstrated the ability to tell when someone is possessed. Hawke's sibling and Anders are (potentially) both fully trained Grey Wardens, every bit as succeptible to Corphy as the Wardens in residence, and in theory educated on Archdemon's body hopping. At no time do Merrill, Anders or the sibling express suspicion or doubt, and if the people with explicit reasons to know don't, why would Hawke?

And those are just three off the top of my head. Hawke may not be a Sherlock Holmes, but they're not half as stupid as people make them out to be.

[frostajulie]

OP I agree to an extent, I really hate how my Hawkes who were all magnificent warriors just rolled over for no reason eg when Templars take Bethany away at least let me fight them till they knock me out let it be my choice to never willingly relinquish my sister. Thats how the Hawke I was playing would have done it.

If you want Petrice to live then let me think I killed her or have her escape while I kill her guards and she sneaks out of a secret passage.
The lilies let me warn my mom about the serial killer if I read the notes he can always kidnap and kill her later but at least Hawkes not stupid about it.

Orsino please I should have been allowed to rat him out to Meredith when I found the journal signed with an O and shared my suspicions. Just one more cut scene would be needed to let Hawke stop looking like an ass hat or idiot.

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

How about Hawke after being named "Champion of Kirkwall" simply LETS Meredith become an illegitamate Viscount and does nothing about it for three solid years? I could accept it if we were told that Hawke tried and was brushed aside somehow.....but the 'second most powerful' person in Kirkwall should have more influence than that!

For that matter why in Act 3 does Hawke have to stay in Kirkwall at all? His family may well be gone, he is independantly wealthy,and he might even be a mage in a city being run into the ground by a Templar despot.

Why stay? I am not saying that all Hawkes would leave, but that should have been an option.

-Polaris

Hawke's passivity was a problem throughout the story, as the OP notes. When Petrice admits that she wants to start a religious war with the Qunari by killing innocent people, the Plot railroads our protagonist into simply standing idly by and doing nothing. When Cullen and a single other templar come to take Bethany away to a Circle where Hawke knows that mages have been made tranquil illegally, Hawke does nothing. When Hawke finds a hand-written novel written by an accomplice to his mother's killer, Hawke doesn't even try to investigate it. It's why I have trouble with how some people try to paint Hawke as an example of a character who fails. How does Hawke fail when the protagonist doesn't even try in the first place?

Per your example, Hawke is a hero among the people of Kirkwall for stopping the Qunari from taking over the city, but does nothing about Meredith's dictatorship for three years, until he stumbles upon Orsino gathering a rally of people to oppose the Knight-Commander.

Frankly, I don't see why Hawke stayed in Kirkwall after Act I concluded. Especially an apostate Hawke.

[franciscoamell]

Why do you use a picture of Hawke as your avatar if you find her a stupid character??

[TK514]

I never understood the "Hawke does nothing when the Templers come for Bethany" argument. What do you honestly expect Hawke to be able to do, there? Start an armed conflict that will get Bethany killed almost immediately, as well as endangering Leandra who is standing about five feet away? Bethany telling Hawke to stand down makes her the smartest Amell in the room at that particular moment. The only positive outcome to Bethany letting Hawke start a fight in that room is leaving Gamlen with three less mouths to feed.

Modifié par TK514, 24 mai 2013 - 12:35 .

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

I never understood the "Hawke does nothing when the Templers come for Bethany" argument.  

While I never understood Hawke doing nothing if his sister is being taken to a place where he knows mages are being made tranquil illegally.

TK514 wrote...

What do you honestly expect Hawke to be able to do, there? Start an armed conflict that will get Bethany killed almost immediately, as well as endangering Leandra who is standing about five feet away?  

Hawke has shown his prowess in combat. Fighting two templars to rescue his sister from being tortured, raped, or made tranquil would be worth the effort.

TK514 wrote...

Bethany telling Hawke to stand down makes her the smartest Amell in the room at that particular moment.

Hawke doing nothing was the usual course for Dragon Age II. We even received two DLCs where Hawke continued to do nothing. 

TK514 wrote...

The only positive outcome to Bethany letting Hawke start a fight in that room is leaving Gamlen with three less mouths to feed.

You're forgetting about two dead templars.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 mai 2013 - 12:44 .

[franciscoamell]

^Where did you get raped from?

[LobselVith8]

franciscoamell wrote...

^Where did you get raped from?

What Alrik did to the tranquil mages, and what happened to Alain.

[Ponendus]

OP is hilarious. Thank you for a good laugh on a Friday morning.

Also, I agree.