284 réponses à ce sujet

[Scarlet Rabbi]

StreetMagic wrote...

I'm finding your argument a bit empty, looking at your avatar. You look like a murderer yourself

Hahah. Takes one to know one, right? A spade is still a spade even if it's called a spade by another spade.

[wolfhowwl]

StreetMagic wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Templars need to be great warriors in order to fight abominations and demons.

And they fail at it too. Both in game and in lore. They need a group of Templars just to cut down a failure at the Harrowing. If it's a loose abomination, they're killed easily. The codex on abominations presents how one abomination wipes out a bunch of them. In game, even the Knight Commander is too much of a wuss to check inside the Circle. It's your own character that's forced to do it. You don't even get a Templar companion. The Templars just shut the doors behind you and nod their heads, like you're crazy.

Is anyone effective at fighting abominations? It seems that templars do the same thing as mages, regular troops, or everyone else, they die in great numbers.

[Nightdragon8]

[quote]Qistina wrote...

lists of Hawke stupidity

i. going to Kirkwal following mom suggestion as an apostate and/or having an apostate sister [/quote]

Not to many options where avalable at the time. But was fine cause of the status they had there. (precived at the time)

[quote]Qistina wrote...
ii. persist on entering Kirkwal after knowing Amell family is not noble anymore, meaning title cannot give protection anymore
[/quote]

Was pressured by sibling and mother to go anyway. So, out of his hads. (try picking coudl go some where else, mother says, I wont be kept out of the city I was born in, Sister/brother says "we aren't putting mother though anymore" ) so he was outvoted. Nothing much he could do about it.
[quote]Qistina wrote...
iii. willingly working for a year to pay a debt for entering Kirkwal
[/quote]
Same as ii. the choice was made now had to find a way to go with it, agian out of Hawke's hands, at least he had a choice to work as a smuggler or as a merc.
[quote]Qistina wrote...
iv. willingly do all the leg work to sponsor a very dangerous expedition that chances they are all get tainted, they are not Grey Wardens. It is better if Hawke find money and start own business (establish own mercenary band or something)
[/quote]
Debatable, we never really know how much money they got from the expedition. and Considering the level of hate in Kirkwall about the refugee's I don't see it happening. Not to mention the fact that he had to spend a year paying off the debate of getting them into Kirkwall to begin with. (so it woudl be hard to explain to a guard captain) that you did all those illegeal things so you could pay off an offical to allow you into the city.
[quote]Qistina wrote...
v. as the main sponsor, Hawke do the leg work during the expedition
[/quote]

cause it would have been better if they did nothing and got themselves killed right?

[quote]Qistina wrote...
vi. agreeing to smuggle Ketojan without suspecting Chantry scheme by Sister Petrice, common there's a sister there, a Templar and Qunari Mage...Arvaraad is right saying "you talk as if ignorant is your nature"
[/quote]
I'll give you that one but, really who else was going to do it. Then she guilt trips you into doing it anyway.
[quote]Qistina wrote...
vii. keep on helping Isabella without knowing the whole story
[/quote]
Meh, like everyone who has asked you to do something has always given you the whole story. Also its optional. And in the end of it you could have handed her over and they walk out so its your choice to help her really.

[quote]Qistina wrote...
viii. as a Mage, keep on helping Fenris and receive insults from Fenris
[/quote]

Agian completely optional, you didn't have to recurit him after the first lip he gave you about being a mage. So thats the player choice not Hawke. Also you don't need to talk to him after recuriting him anyway.

[quote]Qistina wrote...
ix. being his/her friends stepping stone to achieve their goals
[/quote]
You mean Avilene???. More than likly she kept you off the guards radar.  Also being guard captain wasn't her 'goal' to begin with. As with Anders I grant that I think you have a choice to help him or not, and it requiers you to do it. So its more of a story telling mechinic but I think he pays you if you don't do it willingly.

[quote]Qistina wrote...
x. never bother to force city guard and Templars to investigate his/her mom murder case
[/quote]
you mean the person you end up killing right after he kills your mother?? if thats so then case closed no need to investigate anymore. And as for the -O mesage trying to find someone by the name of -O (if that is even there real name) in a city, where mages outside of the circle is commonplace. Really? think anyone could find them?

[quote]Qistina wrote...
xi. searching for Sar Qamek thief while it is Qunari mess, and then receive bashing by the Arishok
[/quote]
Yes because the Qunari was allowed to move thoughout the city and police the mess they made... not that the city guard or the leadership would allow them to do it. Also, they didn't attack the Qunari so why should they give 2 S@#$ about it.

[quote]Qistina wrote...
xii. as a Mage never suspect Anders is up to no good, that guy is acting weirdly,talking about "self exorcism" using sella petrae and drake stone then sneaking in the Chantry.....what a Mage you are Hawke?
[/quote]

Yes thats because all Mages know Alchemy (aka Chemisty) sense they where born... right? I mean he must have learned that in the Circle.... oh wait thats right he never went there. I mean he obviously has his own Alchemy brewing stand right?? Oh wait he doesn't he buy's all his potions off of people. He doesn't make his own stuff. More of a rich person excuse but still. But again do you know how to make medice from scratch? If you do great now ask your neighbor if they don't (and do because they happen to be in that field then that doesn't count)

[Sister Goldring]

This topic makes me laugh because at one point I decided the only way to enjoy playing fem Hawke was play her as a vacuous bimbo whose sole motivation in hanging around Kirkwall was making doe-eyes at Anders and Fenris. I had a lot of fun with my naïve simpleton in the end, so it was all good.

[Zack_Nero]

One thing I can say I like about Hawke was that dialogue you would select would fix his/her personality. That feature I really did like.

[Shevy]

Zack_Nero wrote...

One thing I can say I like about Hawke was that dialogue you would select would fix his/her personality. That feature I really did like.

"I want to be a dragon" Yep, this sentence incarnates how Hawke comes across during the game.

[Uccio]

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's "no way"? Following that line of logic, Hawke shouldn't have been made to make it to Kirkwall, but he did - despite all the dangers that existed between the entrance to the Deep Roads and the city-state. Your scenario of inevitable doom also isn't supported by the storyline, where Hawke manages to find a way when he's actually fighting his foes. Fighting Qunari after Qunari didn't end in defeat when he had to take on the Arishok on his own, despite all the energy he put into fighting against greater numbers while the Arishok had a small army following his every command. Battling the darkspawn and the Profane didn't end in defeat when he finally faced the Profane Abomination or the Ancient Rockwraith.

Well, if you're going to metagame, then we should have hit start and gotten an 'I WIN' screen because it is impossible for Hawke to lose any of the fights he's forced into.

And since you want to metagame, clearly Bethany's choice was the right one.  She prevents her family from having to flee the city and keep running from the authorities and suffers no negative repercussions for doing so.  She is not abused, raped, tortured or made tranquil.  She gets a home among her fellow mages and the personal attention of the First Enchanter.  She gets to write to her family, uncensored, and even see them from time to time.  She even claims it's better than being on the run.  Such a terrible life.

As I see it, Hawke has spent his life protecting his sister from templars. Therefore Hawke and his siblings would have probably practiced different fighting scenarions where they would have been caught by templars. So Bethany should be aware how to act if Hawke gives some code words.
I have hard time to believe that a seasoned warrior/rogue who has been in combat field and spent the last year as a mercenary (And last weeks slaughtering darkspawn to get home) would just lay down his arms and do nothing in the very moment he has been training/waiting for his whole life. Expecially when facing only two templars who probably have seen little to nothing actual combat.

Modifié par Ukki, 24 mai 2013 - 03:27 .

[Sutekh]

Shevy_001 wrote...

Zack_Nero wrote...

One thing I can say I like about Hawke was that dialogue you would select would fix his/her personality. That feature I really did like.

"I want to be a dragon" Yep, this sentence incarnates how Hawke comes across during the game.

If you chose that dialog option, then you made Hawke stupid. You can't even invoke the "paraphrase clause" for this one.

And, btw, allowing us to play a stupid Hawke is actually a good thing (as long as we're also allowed to play the opposite, which admittedly wasn't always the case in DA2).

[Plaintiff]

What the hell is wrong with wanting to be a dragon? People in this thread are so uptight.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 mai 2013 - 01:35 .

[Nefla]

I like stupid as an option, but not as the default. When I figure something out as the player, the PC should be able to know it as well since we never switch to a different perspective. Player and PC get all the same information.

[Cecilia L]

OP, I agree.

It's sad that the way a DA2 playthrough makes the most sense, is if Hawke is stupid, evil, or negligent and simply lets all the horrible thing that are the PLOT happen to this Makerforsaken city.

Modifié par Cecilia L, 24 mai 2013 - 03:31 .

[Dagr88]

I liked all those DA:O features that was mentioned by OP, but DA:I will be 3rd installment. PC will be also different this time.

Considering how must knowledge players had gathered through series (games, comics, books...) about lore, events and characters, I'm afraid that there might be a disconnection between PC and player.

Know the deeds and history of people yous PC just met. Imposing previous PC's believes on new one. Not having the option to do the right thing because this PC doesn't have that knowledge yet...

... What was I trying to say?
Oh, right! Will difference in knowledge between PC and player make him/her stupid? (Talking about both)

[Vlk3]

Sutekh wrote...

Shevy_001 wrote...

Zack_Nero wrote...

One thing I can say I like about Hawke was that dialogue you would select would fix his/her personality. That feature I really did like.

"I want to be a dragon" Yep, this sentence incarnates how Hawke comes across during the game.

If you chose that dialog option, then you made Hawke stupid. You can't even invoke the "paraphrase clause" for this one.

And, btw, allowing us to play a stupid Hawke is actually a good thing (as long as we're also allowed to play the opposite, which admittedly wasn't always the case in DA2).

Well, it's obvious that Hawke is joking and is not really serious in that moment and that doesn't make him/her stupid. Even Flemeth who is an intelligent and very wise person (dragon? ) likes Hawke's response, I don't see why would anyone think he/she says that out of stupidity.
Wow, you people keep surprising me. I thought that wasn't that hard to figure out. My sarcastic Hawke is actually much brighter and clever than diplomatic one. She just doesn't want to bore to death people around her.

[Cyberfrog81]

Plaintiff wrote...

A lot of what you perceive as "stupidity" is actually just you forgetting that there is a world surrounding Hawke that we don't see. You also forget that, as the player of the game, you have knowledge that characters living inside it do not.

Like the stupid 'O' argument. There are a billion and a half names that start with O. Dozens, if not hundreds of 'O's could be living in Kirkwall. The only reason Orsino is the "obvious" culprit is because you, as the viewer, recognize the foreshadowing for what it truly is.

Hawke lives inside the narrative, he does not know that he is in a story, and does not have the benefit of your omniscience.

Also, Hawke never meets Orsino at any point prior to his mother's murder, so there's no possible way for him to make that connection.

All true.

For all the good it does me. Maybe if I actually found the world of DA2 credible or immersive, I would've cared how "fair" I'm being to the character of Hawke. As it stands though, (s)he was a pretty lame character in a disappointing as hell game.

[Chewin]

The problem with Hawke is that he is portraid in the game as someone who achieves his/her goals by killing everyone that stand in his/her way (to put it simply). He is also portraid as a person that simply deals with the different threats b/c he has no other choice than do it without ending up dead or making it worse for him (e.g. the Qunari during act 2, the Mage / Templar incident in act 3). Furthermore, he is portraid as a lazy person that instead of doing something about it (during the years between the acts), he waits it to simply fall to him 'til he has no other way. In act 2, Hawke kills the Arishok (in one outcome that is), that doesn't necessarily make him--as some would call him--"ineffectual", but it's the fact that he saves Kirkwall by simply killing many Qunari by himself that makes it a bit unbelievable and ludicrous.

That was not the impression I (and the majority of people I would bet) got from the marketing and BW was giving us when they introduced Hawke and his "rise to power". A rise to power is about building connections you can rely on. A rise to power is about politics. Most of the people Hawke interacts with could in fact help him save the city. The smugglers or mercenaries, Vanard's forces (if he has any) or the elves of the alienage, etc. That's what DAII should've been about, in my opinion. Story changing. How did Hawke rise to power? Who did he ally with that helped him? Who were his allies outside of the companions that he could call on when he needed them? Not through what important person(s) he killed to achieve it.

He's not proactive, and that's the major problem I have with him. A shortsighted character that has the inability to look forward and anticipate the consequences of his actions. Sure, you could call him a survivor - that's cool, if you want to believe that. But he can hardly take credit for being "the person who changed Thedas". In fact, I think Aveline said it best; "you stumbled into being Champion."

[Boycott Bioware]

Nightdragon8 wrote...
Not to many options where avalable at the time. But was fine cause of the status they had there. (precived at the time)

i suspect the time-line is when the refugees in Lothering is going to Denerim, or not so long, it is just Hawke and Carver arrived late from Ostagar. They can catch up with other refugees from Lothering. Hawke did say to Aveline about Wesley "his fellow left with the Chantry priests", meaning it is not too late since Hawke know the Templars of Lothering left with Chantry priests...they can go to Denerim or Red Cliff

Nightdragon8 wrote...
Was pressured by sibling and mother to go anyway. So, out of his hads. (try picking coudl go some where else, mother says, I wont be kept out of the city I was born in, Sister/brother says "we aren't putting mother though anymore" ) so he was outvoted. Nothing much he could do about it.

As a leader of the pack, bow to pressure show that Hawke is not a good leader. Hawke can use veto, if Hawke is a Mage there is a very good reason for not staying, in fact it is not Hawke sibling and mom who is in danger. Hawke can leave alone if they persist on staying. Sometimes our family just being...well...but we who become the decision maker and we must use the force no matter how many are against us. Will you let your family member or yourself in danger just because your mom and/or your brother/sister don't want to move?

Hawke : "there's a swarm of cannibals nearby, we must move!!Now!!!"
Mom : "uh uh..not going anywhere"
Brother : "we stay here, HERE!"

Nightdragon8 wrote...
Same as ii. the choice was made now had to find a way to go with it, agian out of Hawke's hands, at least he had a choice to work as a smuggler or as a merc.

"Forced choice is not choice"- Ketojan

Nightdragon8 wrote...
Debatable, we never really know how much money they got from the expedition. and Considering the level of hate in Kirkwall about the refugee's I don't see it happening. Not to mention the fact that he had to spend a year paying off the debate of getting them into Kirkwall to begin with. (so it woudl be hard to explain to a guard captain) that you did all those illegeal things so you could pay off an offical to allow you into the city.

We do know how much Hawke get from the expedition, 6 gold coins, lol invest 50 (or 70) and get only 6 gold coins...

Anyway, being a mercenary doesn't mean doing crimes, Hawke can help put down cats on the trees, find lost items, Kirkwallers have a lot of forgetful peoples who always misplace their belongings, help finding lost corpses, establish a courier service, becomes underground healers like Anders, and many more...

Hawke really don't need to join the expedition just to escape Templars, Merill can do it without being a noble, and many Blood Mages hanging around in Kirkwall being invisible

Meh, like everyone who has asked you to do something has always given you the whole story. Also its optional. And in the end of it you could have handed her over and they walk out so its your choice to help her really.

Agian completely optional, you didn't have to recurit him after the first lip he gave you about being a mage. So thats the player choice not Hawke. Also you don't need to talk to him after recuriting him anyway.

yes it is optional, but if you help them, the way story is being told, Hawke is a dumb, or we can say...naive...too naive...or simply stupid

You mean Avilene???. More than likly she kept you off the guards radar. Also being guard captain wasn't her 'goal' to begin with. As with Anders I grant that I think you have a choice to help him or not, and it requiers you to do it. So its more of a story telling mechinic but I think he pays you if you don't do it willingly.

I mean everyone, not just Aveline, but everyone

i. Merill need Hawke to become mediator between her and the Keeper, she want to repair her stupid mirror
ii. Fenris want Hawke support facing Denarius, he can't face Denarius alone despite his boasting, if Hawke hand over him to Denarius, he just follow without a fight at all!
iii. Anders need Hawke in all his scheme against the Chantry
iv. Hawke is a trouble magnet, so Aveline use Hawke in troubles she can'r handle, most of Kirkwal major cases handled by Hawke. Aveline is just incompetence Guard Captain. Aveline need Hawke influence especially after Hawke becomes a noble. Aveline have no shy to ask Hawke become a messenger boy/girl in pursuing Donnic.
v. Isabella need hawke protection from all her enemies, especially the Qunari. Hawke provide a good distraction, a pawn in her game
vi. Varric need a partner, he want to become someone to rival his brother

you mean the person you end up killing right after he kills your mother?? if thats so then case closed no need to investigate anymore. And as for the -O mesage trying to find someone by the name of -O (if that is even there real name) in a city, where mages outside of the circle is commonplace. Really? think anyone could find them?

Finding the murderer do not solve the case. The case is not close. There are connections to be investigated. There are too many questionable issues like how Quentin can get pass the Templars all these time? It is a murder right under the City of Templars. Then the Mage named "O", we can link up all evidence about books orders from the Circle, DPuis documents, letters from Starkhaven, letters from Meredith...there's a CONSPIRACY

Yes because the Qunari was allowed to move thoughout the city and police the mess they made... not that the city guard or the leadership would allow them to do it. Also, they didn't attack the Qunari so why should they give 2 S@#$ about it.

They sent delegations to the Viscount, they also can hide pretty well in the Chantry, they can appear everywhere. They can find the Sar Qamek themselves. But Arishok use Hawke because Arishok can't calculate who or what reason the Sar Qamek being stolen. If everything goes wrong, it is Hawke to be blame, not him.

Yes thats because all Mages know Alchemy (aka Chemisty) sense they where born... right? I mean he must have learned that in the Circle.... oh wait thats right he never went there. I mean he obviously has his own Alchemy brewing stand right?? Oh wait he doesn't he buy's all his potions off of people. He doesn't make his own stuff. More of a rich person excuse but still. But again do you know how to make medice from scratch? If you do great now ask your neighbor if they don't (and do because they happen to be in that field then that doesn't count)

Hawke as a MAGE going to the Fade, fighting Blood Mages, handling red lyrium craziness of Bartrand, seeing abominations everywhere..don't tell me Hawke is so dumb don't know about alchemy and spirit possession is a complete two unrelated thing. The main problem is the way the game handling the scene, Anders is a Mage want to fool Hawke the famous Mage in history about spirit possession? And then Hawke is so dumb believing him? Damn, Hawke already killing the possessed Keeper and many more possessed Blood mages because that is the only way and now Anders saying it can be just "boom!" and it's gone, no need ritual, sacrificing but need to sneak into the Chantry

[Dagr88]

Chewin3 wrote...
That was not the impression I (and the majority of people I would bet) got from the marketing and BW was giving us when they introduced Hawke and his "rise to power". A rise to power is about building connections you can rely on. A rise to power is about politics. Most of the people Hawke interacts with could in fact help him save the city. The smugglers or mercenaries, Vanard's forces (if he has any) or the elves of the alienage, etc. That's what DAII should've been about, in my opinion. Story changing. How did Hawke rise to power? Who did he ally with that helped him? Who were his allies outside of the companions that he could call on when he needed them? Not through what important person(s) he killed to achieve it.

Basically, what those people expected of Hawke is Cassandra's version if him/her, before she listened to Varric's story.

Modifié par Dagr88, 24 mai 2013 - 03:54 .

[Sutekh]

Vlk3 wrote...

Well, it's obvious that Hawke is joking and is not really serious in that moment and that doesn't make him/her stupid.

Well, there's that. But I can understand some people didn't get the joke and took it first degree. I mean, it's Hawke, after all. The Character Who Can Do Nothing Right. If they say something goofy, surely, they must mean it.

[Dagr88]

Qistina wrote...



i. Merill need Hawke to become mediator between her and the Keeper, she want to repair her stupid mirror
ii. Fenris want Hawke support facing Denarius, he can't face Denarius alone despite his boasting, if Hawke hand over him to Denarius, he just follow without a fight at all!
iii. Anders need Hawke in all his scheme against the Chantry
iv. Hawke is a trouble magnet, so Aveline use Hawke in troubles she can'r handle, most of Kirkwal major cases handled by Hawke. Aveline is just incompetence Guard Captain. Aveline need Hawke influence especially after Hawke becomes a noble. Aveline have no shy to ask Hawke become a messenger boy/girl in pursuing Donnic.
v. Isabella need hawke protection from all her enemies, especially the Qunari. Hawke provide a good distraction, a pawn in her game
vi. Varric need a partner, he want to become someone to rival his brother

Friendship does not exist! Same with Santa.
Those bastards dare to have their own life and personal problems. Can't they just follow you like good little sheep when YOU need to do some darkspawn, orlesians or ancient magisters killing.

In Thedas friends don't share their emotions/fortune/problems/fun... only killing. And it doesn't matter how stupid they are.

Modifié par Dagr88, 24 mai 2013 - 04:18 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Friendship does not exist! Same with Santa.
Those bastards dare to have their own life and personal problems. Can't they just follow you like good little sheep when YOU need to do some darkspawn, orlesians or ancient magisters killing.

In Thedas friends don't share their emotions/fortune/problems/fun... only killing. And it doesn't matter how stupid they are.

i see Santa in Christmas, lots of them...kind old men they are...and suddely my country have snow, in certain places only

Some friends do have problems, but they are mutual, not selfish in nature. hawke friends problems are selfish nature, everyone have something to gain.

Compare with DA:O, the only one who have something to gain is the one who insist to follow you, Leliana...Alistair is just a poor guy who have no choice but tagging along with your or he could be sold into slavery and end up becoming a strip dancer in Antivan ****house or something...Leliana who have motives and it is obvious, although she will leave if you ask her to leave, but believe me she is right behind you but you don't see her

Morrigan follow you just because she must, Flemeth order, and she's offering herself for the ritual, if reject her she just leave. It's nothing. She ask you to kill her mother is just testing you, she know you could not kill her mother or you could kill her mother, she also know her mother will not really dead, it just somewhat 'sending a message" to her mother only they know what it means. In any way, if you successful she get her book, if you not successful then you are not worthy to her. She don't care about the Blight and don't care about you or anything just quest for power (she even admit that when you second time meet her in Flemeth Hut with certain dialogue option). Another Grey Warden could be her victim for her ritual. BUT she is shocked when you really care for her (even if you lie about killing her mother), and there she learn what friendship means, the friendship is now pure

The rest of party members in DA:O you pick up in your journey, they have no personal gain and nothing to loose following you.

Modifié par Qistina, 24 mai 2013 - 05:28 .

[Dagr88]

Everyone who can gain something from you is trying to get it or already got it when they joined.

Wynne - you only get her if you saved the circle (her family), so she technically "gained" what she needed from Warden.

Zevran - uses you as a possible shield against Crows that might come after him, because he failed or until he can betray Warden (can happen).

Sten - saved his life. He can continue his personal quest with you.

Oghren - Saved/killed his wife. Nothing to in Orzammar.

Shale - Released her from paralysis. She has amnesia. Nothing better to do.

Modifié par Dagr88, 24 mai 2013 - 06:24 .

[BouncyFrag]

I found Hawke to be akin to Charlie Brown with the game constantly pulling the rug from out of him at the worst possible moments.