207 réponses à ce sujet

[FINE HERE]

I miss the silent PC... Sigh...

[N7recruit]

Tinxa wrote...

N7recruit wrote...

Tinxa wrote...

I'd rather have the persuasion option back and maybe also different dialogue options based on your character's stats. High intelligence (or something else) for example and your character would get an additional option like: "You're not asking me to save your daughter out of concern, you are just afraid your noble family is going to look bad". The quest doesn't change (maybe just some quests do), just your perception of the NPC turns from concerned father to heartless nobleman.

Normally I'd agree with you but I feel if those options were presented in the dialogue wheel it would spell out " PICK THIS TO WIN" I love the consept of stats mattering in conversations but I just feel the interface needs to be changed a bit first. 
In DA2 with the <3 icon I couldn't shake the image that the Writers are like "Hitch" talking to me through an ear peice telling me the right thing to say:lol:

Yes that is true. Sometimes I feel it would be better to lose the icons and randomise the choices (maybe the top choice is "kill" sometimes).
I feel the icons take the thinking out of dialogues. You don't think what the PC will say, you just automatically click on the middle option if you're playing sarcastic Hawke... because you're playing sarcastic Hawke.
Another thing that could work is if some NPCs just stopped talking to you if you insult them with an inappropriate comment. Maybe it's not the best time to crack jokes while talking to a mother that just lost her son so she doesn't give you the sidequest. Some NPCs would only respond to threats, while some would like the jokes. So if you choose the wrong approach you would "fail" the conversation.

I know what you mean. In ME 2 I was mindlessly picking the paragon choice most of the time on subsequent playthroughs to get that damed rep bar to fill.<_< It was made better in ME3 But it still kept that silly morality system which winda works in the context but with that amount of Auto Dialogue it can go screw it self 

For DA 2 you were not picking actions but picking responces most of the time. And when you picked an action the tone would be baised of the domoment tone you used for that act which is nice but it may not be appropriate to how I want to act in that given situation.
ME3 did have some nice dialogue changes baised on previous playthroughs but its so un-noticable and meaningless as theres no character growth or plot relevance to them that I couldn't really care about them.

For the variety of outcomes like "failing" conversations should well be implemented its just about not having a clear way of "Winning" a convercation so the player dosn't mindlessly pick that option if they know thats the Right one.  
If you have played Deus ex HR, save just before one of the big conversations where you use your augs to help read the person your talking to, then reload it and youll notice that the same options dont have the same result as last time. there is a limit to it but its a really cool design to keep the player on their tose & the scenes replayable 

[N7recruit]

FINE HERE wrote...

I miss the silent PC... Sigh...

I miss him/her too... we could just imagine the tone they spoke in back in the good old days...

[Sylvius the Mad]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Would the otehr characters react differently for each subtone option picked?

I literally don't care.

There is no discernable relationship between how a line is delivered and how it is received.

FINE HERE wrote...

I miss the silent PC... Sigh...

As do I.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 23 mai 2013 - 10:50 .

[LobselVith8]

relhart wrote...

Not if they are going to stick to their guns about having VO for the PC. Way too much of a resource sink, imo.

Which is why I think having a voiced protagonist is a mistake. It's limiting, narrows who your protagonist can be in this type of game, and can box you into certain characteristics that break immersion. The paraphrasing can also cause a problem when the voiced dialogue says something entirely different than the written dialogue you chose. It's a few of the concerns I have about the return of a voiced protagonist.

[N7recruit]

LobselVith8 wrote...

relhart wrote...

Not if they are going to stick to their guns about having VO for the PC. Way too much of a resource sink, imo.

Which is why I think having a voiced protagonist is a mistake. It's limiting, narrows who your protagonist can be in this type of game, and can box you into certain characteristics that break immersion. The paraphrasing can also cause a problem when the voiced dialogue says something entirely different than the written dialogue you chose. It's a few of the concerns I have about the return of a voiced protagonist.

 

I would not agree in saying its a mistake as both Voiced & Mute PC both have their advantages and disadvantages, but with my "All or Nothing" approach to the control over the PlayerCharacter, I do somtimes wonder if the Voiced P.C are worth all the trouble, expences & limitations that they impose on the Player and the Devs

[Nightdragon8]

I think there should be at least some choices where the MC isn't a complete moron. At least for those who have importsaves. Like We know about darkspawn we know about XYZ so we don't need to ask the "newbie" questions.

[Kidd]

Tinxa wrote...

I feel the icons take the thinking out of dialogues. You don't think what the PC will say, you just automatically click on the middle option if you're playing sarcastic Hawke... because you're playing sarcastic Hawke.

I've never really understood how this happens, though it seems it does, somehow. If you always want to be snarky, no matter the context, then surely you could do that in Origins as well? Sure, you'd need to read the lines to find the sarcastic option instead of looking for icons, but the end result of you always choosing snarky lines cause you like snark is the exact same. The choice to play a two dimensional character is ultimately, in DAO and DA2 alike, up to you.

Well, that is unless you subscribe to Sylvius' idea of non-voiced protagonists not having tones and you putting your own tones into what's said. That way it's impossible to compare the systems even though they are both written the same way. I'm not saying that's the wrong way to play the game; it's just an alternate take that I don't follow myself. My question is for those who do not agree with Sylvius of which I assume (perhaps wrongfully so) there's plenty.

[Tinxa]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Tinxa wrote...

I feel the icons take the thinking out of dialogues. You don't think what the PC will say, you just automatically click on the middle option if you're playing sarcastic Hawke... because you're playing sarcastic Hawke.

I've never really understood how this happens, though it seems it does, somehow. If you always want to be snarky, no matter the context, then surely you could do that in Origins as well? Sure, you'd need to read the lines to find the sarcastic option instead of looking for icons, but the end result of you always choosing snarky lines cause you like snark is the exact same. The choice to play a two dimensional character is ultimately, in DAO and DA2 alike, up to you.

Well, that is unless you subscribe to Sylvius' idea of non-voiced protagonists not having tones and you putting your own tones into what's said. That way it's impossible to compare the systems even though they are both written the same way. I'm not saying that's the wrong way to play the game; it's just an alternate take that I don't follow myself. My question is for those who do not agree with Sylvius of which I assume (perhaps wrongfully so) there's plenty.

Well it's all in the delivery I guess. I just wish something in the dialogue system would give me pause and reason to think through my options again so the conversations wouldn't feel so mindless. I'm not saying that the end result is somehow really different than with a silent PC, I just don't like the felling that I as the player am just clicking on something automatically without thinking about it.I just played ME3 and because I played renegade Shepard I just clicked the bottom option every time as soon as the wheel appeared and I feel the same thing happens in DA2.


Before you read through and considered all the options and maybe you found something you liked better than the snarky one. But with the paraphrases you don't know exactly what will be said so you pick the one you always pick that is located in the same spot without even looking and if you want romance you pick the one with the heart.


I also didn't like the dominant tone in DA2. If you mostly chose sarcastic options the PC would joke around even when you don't mean to. I also hated the fact that I couldn't threaten anyone successfully when I wanted to, because I wasn't nasty enough in other conversations.

[Cainhurst Crow]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Would the otehr characters react differently for each subtone option picked?

That doesn't matter one bit. It doesn't matter if the world reacts to us. What matters is that we can define our character the best way.

IMO

How do you define something if that something leaves no impact on the world at all? If the only difference is from a metagame perspective, since all the reactions are the same, it is, to me, a waste of time and resource, because there is absolutely nothing to show that there was ever a difference in the first place.

[Fast Jimmy]

Well it's all in the delivery I guess. I just wish something in the dialogue system would give me pause and reason to think through my options again so the conversations wouldn't feel so mindless. I'm not saying that the end result is somehow really different than with a silent PC, I just don't like the felling that I as the player am just clicking on something automatically without thinking about it.I just played ME3 and because I played renegade Shepard I just clicked the bottom option every time as soon as the wheel appeared and I feel the same thing happens in DA2.


Before you read through and considered all the options and maybe you found something you liked better than the snarky one. But with the paraphrases you don't know exactly what will be said so you pick the one you always pick that is located in the same spot without even looking and if you want romance you pick the one with the heart.

Here, here. The wheel always seems to reduce involvement in the dialogue system. It takes me out of the experience and makes me care less about any of the options, mostly be wise I don't even understand what those options mean the majority of the time.

I would be very interested to see if there are any metrics on how long people deliberate on choices with the dialogue list vs. the wheel. Reading lines would likely affect things, but I wonder if there is a statistically significant difference in time where people ponder what they are saying, rather than the wheel where players can go to the same icon every time without thought.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 mai 2013 - 06:05 .

[Allan Schumacher]

To be fair, the dominant tone in DA2 often resulted in nine lines of dialogue being recorded. The aggressive, snarky and diplomatic tones resulted in not only different recordings, but also different lines.

Eh, I'm pretty sure this isn't actually the case. There may have been piecemeal differences here or there, and a lot of the more automatic responses definitely had variations, but whether I have been diplomatic, sarcastic, or aggressive often didn't change the responses for any particular player response wheel.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I would be very interested to see if there are any metrics on how long people deliberate on choices with the dialogue list vs. the wheel. Reading lines would likely affect things, but I wonder if there is a statistically significant difference in time where people ponder what they are saying, rather than the wheel where players can go to the same icon every time without thought.

I probably spent longer choosing options in ME and DA2, because I couldn't tell what they meant.

In the beginning, I selected paraphrases just like I did with full-text lines, but that meant I was constantly shown content I hadn't wanted. So then I started spending a ton of time trying to determine what the actual line would be (largely unsuccessfully) before choosing an option.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 24 mai 2013 - 05:52 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Eh, I'm pretty sure this isn't actually the case. There may have been piecemeal differences here or there, and a lot of the more automatic responses definitely had variations, but whether I have been diplomatic, sarcastic, or aggressive often didn't change the responses for any particular player response wheel.

It did quite a bit actually. Your dominant tone affected the specific responses. A Snarky Hawke trying to be aggressive resulted in a funny but not very scary line.

I saw it quite a bit when playing the game at the same time my wife was. We were both playing male rogues, but hers was Diplomatic and mine was Snarky in overall personality. We'd often get very different lines even when picking the same option on the wheel.

Thats how we first discovered the Dominant personality thing was even in the game.

[Realmzmaster]

I like the Dominant personality. If word gets around town that your Hawke has a particular personality then even people you do not know will react to that personality. The quest for the posion in the harbor comes to mind. Aggressive Hawke can do actions that Diplomatic and Snarky Hawke cannot get away with which also happens in RL.

More wheel options allows the gamer to define the PC, but the PC is also defined by how the world reacts to him/her. Not in the PC's eyes but most definitely in the eyes of those interacting with the PC.

[Fast Jimmy]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Eh, I'm pretty sure this isn't actually the case. There may have been piecemeal differences here or there, and a lot of the more automatic responses definitely had variations, but whether I have been diplomatic, sarcastic, or aggressive often didn't change the responses for any particular player response wheel.

It did quite a bit actually. Your dominant tone affected the specific responses. A Snarky Hawke trying to be aggressive resulted in a funny but not very scary line.

I saw it quite a bit when playing the game at the same time my wife was. We were both playing male rogues, but hers was Diplomatic and mine was Snarky in overall personality. We'd often get very different lines even when picking the same option on the wheel. 

Thats how we first discovered the Dominant personality thing was even in the game.

Correct, this is what I was talking about. Every line would have to be recorded three times, one for reach personality tone. Often it was the same exact text (although often even this wasn't the case, where the dominant tone actually resulted in different words being said), but it was a line delivered in a different tone, nonetheless. And, hence, three times the VA work. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 mai 2013 - 06:18 .

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I like the Dominant personality. If word gets around town that your Hawke has a particular personality then even people you do not know will react to that personality. The quest for the posion in the harbor comes to mind. Aggressive Hawke can do actions that Diplomatic and Snarky Hawke cannot get away with which also happens in RL.

This was the point of the whole Paragon/Renegade thing in Mass Effect. You might not have played the games--essentially most actions netted you either paragon or renegade points. Then, the games had persuade dialog that checked your Paragon/Renegade score. If you had high enough renegade, for example, you could intimidate people more easily.

I feel that was a much better approach than picking a way to say a line simply based on what you did more.

Effectiveness of the line, in ME, was better than actually losing control of the line.

I'm on the fence about the dominant tone locking out content. I feel like if they were going to do it, there should have been better indications it was happening. 

Shepherd would have had the Paragon/Renegade persuasion option grayed out if his points were not high enough. And in DA:O, you would have the option of, say, asking Anora to marry you instead of Allistair, even if the only shot you had at succeeding was being a Human Noble. The game pointed you towards the locked content and gave you an indication that there was content being missed, as well as how to go about obtaining it on future playthroughs. 

Again, it goes back to what Gaider said were "card tricks in the dark." We didn't know what we didn't know, so we assumed that we weren't missing anything, despite the reality of the siuation. 

[Fast Jimmy]

^

True. We are having different conversations, it seems.

[David Gaider]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Eh, I'm pretty sure this isn't actually the case. There may have been piecemeal differences here or there, and a lot of the more automatic responses definitely had variations, but whether I have been diplomatic, sarcastic, or aggressive often didn't change the responses for any particular player response wheel.

Correct. The variances based on dominant tone were for the choice wheels, not the tone wheels. If you picked a response off the tone wheel, the tone of that response was already determined.

At any rate, that was for DA2. Dominant tone no longer exists for DAI. So it's a moot point.

Modifié par David Gaider, 24 mai 2013 - 06:27 .

[Allan Schumacher]

It did quite a bit actually. Your dominant tone affected the specific responses. A Snarky Hawke trying to be aggressive resulted in a funny but not very scary line.

Define "quite a bit." I know that the dominant tone would still affect specific responses. How much is enough for you to actually start noticing some differences. 1 in 10 is still pretty frequent, but it's MUCH less than recording every line 3 different times simply to account for tone of voice.


Given that our VO files were defined by a string ID and suffix to denote male and female, the only way to have different VO for the same text would be to have the same line exist as 3 distinctly different, unique lines exist with unique string IDs for them to be matched up against.