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[Dave of Canada]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

So you start off at 0 0 0 for each

Pick 2 diplomatics and you get 2 0 0
THen pick an aggressive and you get 2 0 1 (and diplomatic is still dominant).
Pick 4 sarcastic lines, and now it's 2 4 1 and sarcastic is the dominant tone.

And if I'm not mistaken, doesn't the dominant stack get cut in half at the end of each act? I seem to recall reading that somewhere.

[Manou1]

relhart wrote...

Not if they are going to stick to their guns about having VO for the PC. Way too much of a resource sink, imo.

Use text-to-speech voices and the problem is solved! 

[Allan Schumacher]

And if I'm not mistaken, doesn't the dominant stack get cut in half at the end of each act? I seem to recall reading that somewhere.

I wouldn't be surprised. There might be some details like this that I can't recall or was never fully aware of since it didn't directly apply to what I was working on.

[MerinTB]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
So you start off at 0 0 0 for each

Pick 2 diplomatics and you get 2 0 0
THen pick an aggressive and you get 2 0 1 (and diplomatic is still dominant).
Pick 4 sarcastic lines, and now it's 2 4 1 and sarcastic is the dominant tone.
As for "picks the diplomatic line that follows," in the first dialogue where you're arguing about what to do just before Aveline and Wesley, there are "dominant tone" lines, but they are automatically spoken. So when you pick your first diplomatic/aggressive/sarcastic line, the line immediately following will be of the dominant tone line (as it's an automatic line).

Okay, I think I get the distinction being made, but it is coming across as splitting hairs to me.

You have Hawkes dominant tone well established as Diplomatic.  You decide to pick an Aggressive response, the line spoken immediately following you picking the paraphrase is the same Aggressive line that anyone picking that would get, but the next bunch of lines spoken by Hawke before you get to make another choice are all Diplomatic in tone.  That's the difference?

I don't think that is that fine of a distinction, but I CAN see the sunlight between the two, so I'll accept that I was oversimplifying what the guide was telling me (or, maybe more accruately, extrapolating too far what it actually said)... 

Fair enough.

Dave of Canada wrote...
And if I'm not mistaken, doesn't the dominant stack get cut in half at the end of each act? I seem to recall reading that somewhere.

That is what the guide said.  Each act cuts the stack or some such, and I believe it was in half, so with the big passage of time (and here I'm speculating as to reasoning) you can make Hawke grow and change as a person, becoming more of one thing and less of another due to his experiences, if you like.

---

I don't think the concept of dominant tone was a bad one at all.  I love Westwood's Blade Runner, and you could just set your character's tone and have it auto-answer dialog for you (loved it) if you wanted.

[Allan Schumacher]

Okay, I think I get the distinction being made, but it is coming across as splitting hairs to me.

You have Hawkes dominant tone well established as Diplomatic. You decide to pick an Aggressive response, the line spoken immediately following you picking the paraphrase is the same Aggressive line that anyone picking that would get, but the next bunch of lines spoken by Hawke before you get to make another choice are all Diplomatic in tone. That's the difference?

I don't think that is that fine of a distinction, but I CAN see the sunlight between the two, so I'll accept that I was oversimplifying what the guide was telling me (or, maybe more accruately, extrapolating too far what it actually said)...

Fair enough.

Sorry, the example I mentioned was specifically for the first choices you get in the prologue, so it's not possible to have a "dominant tone well established" at that time.

So I don't think it's splitting hairs, as from your own quote (emphasis mine)
page 160 -"The first dialogue choice you make sets Hawke's personality. If your first pick is a Diplomatic option, for example, Hawke's voice will adopt the diplomatic line that follows. As you keep choosing similar options at the dialogue wheel, they "stack." If you were to decide to change your personality later on, it would take more than twice the amount of (either Humorous or Aggressive) dialog lines to active that version of Hawke's voice."

It seems clear to me that the guide is specifically talking about the first dialogue options, not all dialogue options, during that passage.

So no, the difference is not that the "next bunch of lines spoken by Hawke before you get to make another choice are all Diplomatic in tone." The majority of lines chosen in the game do not have a bunch of lines spoken by Hawke before you get to make a choice. So to be clear, the example I was referring to was the one it seems the guide was referring to: the very first conversation choices.

In fact, the majority of the PC lines spoken in the game are spoken with the tone chosen at any given time, not the dominant tone.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 25 mai 2013 - 06:42 .

[nightscrawl]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

In fact, the majority of the PC lines spoken in the game are spoken with the tone chosen at any given time, not the dominant tone.

So is it fair to say that the dominant tone is only used for auto dialog, and character references by NPCs?

[MerinTB]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
So I don't think it's splitting hairs, as from your own quote (emphasis mine)
page 160 -"The first dialogue choice you make sets Hawke's personality. If your first pick is a Diplomatic option, for example, Hawke's voice will adopt the diplomatic line that follows. As you keep choosing similar options at the dialogue wheel, they "stack." If you were to decide to change your personality later on, it would take more than twice the amount of (either Humorous or Aggressive) dialog lines to active that version of Hawke's voice."

It seems clear to me that the guide is specifically talking about the first dialogue options, not all dialogue options, during that passage.

So no, the difference is not that the "next bunch of lines spoken by Hawke before you get to make another choice are all Diplomatic in tone." The majority of lines chosen in the game do not have a bunch of lines spoken by Hawke before you get to make a choice. So to be clear, the example I was referring to was the one it seems the guide was referring to: the very first conversation choices.

In fact, the majority of the PC lines spoken in the game are spoken with the tone chosen at any given time, not the dominant tone.

Hold on.  That part of the guide wasn't a walkthrough or anything.  It was in the strategy section.  It's not talking about the prologue, it was speaking to Hawke's personality and the conversation system in general.

So, trying to follow you here, are you saying that for each dialog engagement - everytime dialog is engage in that you can pick what you say - Hawke's tone is undetermined until you make the first choice in that specific engagement....
OR
Are you saying that at the start of the game, when you pick your dialog option, the tone is set and the rest of the game follows?

Because NEITHER of those is how the whole section of the guide reads for me, nor what i understood from all the marketing and talk of dominant tone for DA2 when it was released.

Allan, I know you are trying to help, and I appreciate it, but I'm getting MORE confused by your clairifications.

Why did you grab the word FIRST so strongly there?  The next paragraph in the guide, the one I didn't quote but Dave of Canada is referencing, says that the stack is halved at the start of each new act.

What I am feeling certain of is that you are trying to explain that dominant tone was rarely used at all in DA2.  At which point, if that is what you are trying to say and that is the truth, why was it used AT ALL and spoken of as a feature?

That'd be like talking about how shooting a stationary gun or going into virtual reality were new aspects of Mass Effect 3.  While those two things happened in the game, they were such an insignifcantly small portion of the game that the marketing was smart to not play them up.  Dominant tone was often mentioned in release of DA2, and they donate a page to it in the guide.

[JamieCOTC]

David Gaider wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Eh, I'm pretty sure this isn't actually the case. There may have been piecemeal differences here or there, and a lot of the more automatic responses definitely had variations, but whether I have been diplomatic, sarcastic, or aggressive often didn't change the responses for any particular player response wheel.

Correct. The variances based on dominant tone were for the choice wheels, not the tone wheels. If you picked a response off the tone wheel, the tone of that response was already determined.

At any rate, that was for DA2. Dominant tone no longer exists for DAI. So it's a moot point.

I understand the pitfalls of the dominate tone, but it did make the auto-dialogue tolerable. it also exteneded the life of the game w/ replay value.  I'll be curious to see what your guys put in its place, if anything.

[AlanC9]

MerinTB wrote...

Are you saying that at the start of the game, when you pick your dialog option, the tone is set and the rest of the game follows?

Well, your first pick makes your score 1-0-0, right? So that sets your dominant tone until, at a minimum, you get your score to 1-3-0; that's three picks away if you're consistently picking a single different choice, more if you vary some.

[AlanC9]

MerinTB wrote...

In fact, the majority of the PC lines spoken in the game are spoken with the tone chosen at any given time, not the dominant tone.

What I am feeling certain of is that you are trying to explain that dominant tone was rarely used at all in DA2.  At which point, if that is what you are trying to say and that is the truth, why was it used AT ALL and spoken of as a feature?

I don't read this the way you're reading it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 25 mai 2013 - 09:19 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

MerinTB wrote...

What I am feeling certain of is that you are trying to explain that dominant tone was rarely used at all in DA2.  At which point, if that is what you are trying to say and that is the truth, why was it used AT ALL and spoken of as a feature?

The dominant tone was used only where the tone wasn't being selected by the player.  So, choice options (with the arrow icon), or auto-dialogue.

But the reason it was talked about as a feature, I would venture, was to blunt criticism of the auto-dialogue or the voiced protagonist generally.  Since we were always stuck with the tone of the voiced line, they needed to explain how we were actually in control of that tone, even if we weren't being consulted right then.  Hence the presentation of dominant tone as a significant feature.

That said, was it promoted heavy outside BSN, or was it just people like us who ask a lot of questions who knew about it at all?

[Allan Schumacher]

Hold on. That part of the guide wasn't a walkthrough or anything. It was in the strategy section. It's not talking about the prologue, it was speaking to Hawke's personality and the conversation system in general.

That's fine. It still makes reference to Hawke's first dialogue option. It doesn't have to be a part of a walkthrough in order to make reference to the first line that the system comes into play.

Because NEITHER of those is how the whole section of the guide reads for me, nor what i understood from all the marketing and talk of dominant tone for DA2 when it was released.

Allan, I know you are trying to help, and I appreciate it, but I'm getting MORE confused by your clairifications.

Why did you grab the word FIRST so strongly there? The next paragraph in the guide, the one I didn't quote but Dave of Canada is referencing, says that the stack is halved at the start of each new act.

I grabbed the word first, because you seem to think it's referring to something more than a mere reference to the first time the system comes into play.

I think you need to Occam's Razor your interpretation of what you read in the strategy guide, because you seem to think that my explanation, and what the guide said, aren't in alignment. They are, but you seem to be reading more into the words. At least the passage that you quoted from page 160 anyways.

To rephrase the section from the strategy guide that you quoted:

There is a dominant tone system in the game, which starts with your very first dialogue choice. Which ever option you pick adds a value to that tone, also setting your dominant tone. To establish a new dominant tone you must pick enough dialogue options that are of a different tone to exceed the dominant tone's value.

The tone scores also appear to be halved at the end of each act, which means it'll be easier to change your dominant tone at that point.


So, imagine (for simplicity) that every time you pick a tone option, you add one (1) to the score for that tone.

At the start of the game, you have the following values:
Diplomatic: 0
Humourous: 0
Aggressive: 0

At your first dialogue option, you pick something. Lets pick Humourous. This adds +1 to the Humourous tone score. So now we have:
Diplomatic: 0
Humourous: 1
Aggressive: 0

As this was our first use of the tone wheel, picking humourous has set our dominant tone to Humorous (I show this with the bold). We will now use humourous lines for some of the auto dialogues, as well as the choice responses. Some NPCs may even reference our dominant tone in their lines.

Now, we have another dialogue response. We have picked... Diplomatic. So now we have:
Diplomatic: 1
Humourous: 1
Aggressive: 0

Humorous remains our dominant tone, because we have a tie and the way we resolve our ties is by keeping which ever one you chose first. Now we pick an aggressive option.

Diplomatic: 1
Humourous: 1
Aggressive: 1

Humourous remains dominant, since it was the first. Lets pick an aggressive:


Diplomatic: 1
Humourous: 1
Aggressive: 2


Aggressive is now leading, and has become the dominant tone. (Note: there may be some specifics with the algorithm here that I don't necessarily recall. They may have made it so you have to exceed the dominant tone by double or some other measurement. This detail of the system I never had to worry about, so I never really knew these finer details. At this point, however, it's just semantics). So the values "stack" in that, by picking more options, you keep adding 1 to the existing value.


Now, if I understand the "halving, at the end of the act." Lets assume that, right at the end of Act 1, we have:

Diplomatic: 10
Humourous: 18
Aggressive: 13


Then, once we start act 2, the values will have changed to:

Diplomatic: 5
Humourous: 9
Aggressive: 6

As such, you retain your previous dominant tone, but 6 aggressive choices to change to an aggressive tone, you only need to make 4. As such, it's easier to change your dominant tone after an act change.

What I am feeling certain of is that you are trying to explain that dominant tone was rarely used at all in DA2. At which point, if that is what you are trying to say and that is the truth, why was it used AT ALL and spoken of as a feature?

I'm not saying it was "rarely" used. I'm saying that the idea that some people had, that ALL lines of dialogue were influenced by the dominant tone, is incorrect. There were posters in this thread that thought it meant that we had to record 3x the VO for each dialogue response, which isn't the case.

I certainly wouldn't say it was used "rarely," but it certainly wasn't used 100% of the time, and I'd wager not even a majority of the time. I mean, I guess it depends on what you mean by "rarely" but, for example, if it was only used 10% of the time, it's not so significant to balloon our VO costs, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as rarely, nor would I say it's splitting hairs over your interpretation of the system.

As for why it was done? Probably to provide a degree of replayability and allowing the game to respond in a certain why based on the prior choices that the player made. For some, it worked and they liked it. For others, it compounded issues they had with the wheel in general.

I didn't really follow the forums so I don't know how much it was talked up prerelease. However, given that I actually found out about the system myself by accident (localization couldn't get a line to play right in the prologue, and I noticed I was getting a different line, so I investigated). I'd be surprised if it was heavily communicated out as a feature since it didn't seem to be really all that known even internally. But like I said, maybe I was wrong.

The dominant tone discussions more seem to be a manifestation of the repeated discussions about the pros and cons of the dialogue wheel and its use in DA2.

[Firky]

Gee, that's interesting.

I have to say, I played as diplomatic, then aggressive, then a mixture of all and I don't recall noticing dominant tone - maybe once or twice? (I'm afraid all the effort was lost on me.)

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I didn't really follow the forums so I don't know how much it was talked up prerelease. However, given that I actually found out about the system myself by accident (localization couldn't get a line to play right in the prologue, and I noticed I was getting a different line, so I investigated). I'd be surprised if it was heavily communicated out as a feature since it didn't seem to be really all that known even internally. But like I said, maybe I was wrong.

Don't take this the wrong way, Allan, but this is mildly worrying, for such an integral part of the dialog system for DA ][. I really hope there isn't anything like this in DA: I that gets (even unintentionally) glossed over.

For what it is worth, the description of the Dominant Tone, as a feature, was a decent section of the Game Informer article which revealed the game. So it was discussed/advertised outside the BSN. 

[Chiramu]

FYI nine choices for every choice is a lot of choices to write in, very impractical. Four choices might be more feasible, five for every one might be pushing it. Nine choices for a few choices wouldn't be too bad, but for every choice? No way. Did you want to write all the choices to put into nine choices OP? The writers would probably suffer from a stress induced writers block.

[AlanC9]

How important was dominant tone, really? It only changed lines the player couldn't directly control, and not all of them.

[KoyoteN7]

What is the reason people didn't like the dominant tone and why is Bioware removing it? Your character grew over time, your conversations with companions and some NPCs were more natural and it added the correct amount of auto-dialogue.

Man I feel like every bold step Bioware took with DA2 is now taken away, first the rivarly/friendship, now it's dominant tone...

[FINE HERE]

KoyoteN7 wrote...

What is the reason people didn't like the dominant tone and why is Bioware removing it? Your character grew over time, your conversations with companions and some NPCs were more natural and it added the correct amount of auto-dialogue.

Man I feel like every bold step Bioware took with DA2 is now taken away, first the rivarly/friendship, now it's dominant tone...

Friendship/rivalry did not make sense. There would be no reason for those people to follow Hawke, or hell, to fall in love with Hawke, when all he/she did was bash their opinions, beliefs, and sometimes their pride.  It was a interesting concept but it didn't work.

Dominant tone is another interesting concept, except no one reacts in one domiant tone for every situation. You can be harsh with your enemies, sweet with your family and witty with your friends. But with the dominant tone, you can want to be nice to the particular NPC your currently talking, but you chose the aggressive response the last 10 times, so now you're screaming your head off at them. All because of the domiant tone the game assumed you'd pick. It takes away from the role play. We should be able to choose how our character evolves and changes with time. There should be no auto-dialog in a roleplaying game like this.

[9TailsFox]

6 options is perfect and enough. 2 for yes (I would love to help and I don't like this but I still help) 2 for no( I am sorry but I can't do this and get lost) and 2 for neutral (This is not my problem and I can't get involved). Of Course more options is nice but not necessary.

[Sylvius the Mad]

KoyoteN7 wrote...

What is the reason people didn't like the dominant tone and why is Bioware removing it?

Because it forced intent on the PC.  Just because Hawke had been aggressive about one thing, he was assumed to be aggressive about every thing.  That's just far too limiting a roleplaying mechanic.

Your character grew over time

But not in a way chosen by the player.

your conversations with companions and some NPCs were more natural

Hardly worth the loss of control.

and it added the correct amount of auto-dialogue.

The correct amount of auto-dialogue is none.

Man I feel like every bold step Bioware took with DA2 is now taken away, first the rivarly/friendship, now it's dominant tone...

I know how you feel.  I did really like one important aspect of DA2 - the diffuse and unfocused plot structure - but I expect BioWare won't touch it with a ten metre cattle prod given how the game was received.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 28 mai 2013 - 05:25 .

[N7recruit]

Chiramu wrote...

FYI nine choices for every choice is a lot of choices to write in, very impractical. Four choices might be more feasible, five for every one might be pushing it. Nine choices for a few choices wouldn't be too bad, but for every choice? No way. Did you want to write all the choices to put into nine choices OP? The writers would probably suffer from a stress induced writers block.

For every dialoge? Yes but as you said it would be a cluster **** for the writers & also eat up their budget. 
Idealy at the end of the conversations would be where the 9 options would come into play. But in a perfect world for me it would be in the conversations with your companions & in the BIG IMPORTANT moments where the 9 option wheel would be wipped out, 3 options 3 tones/reasoning  for each option.

As for the dominant tone im kinda glad its gone, if there is auto dialogue to be had you would rather it be baised off the players previous choices but as others have pointed out it isn't always tone appropriate for the different situation's. 

Now for the Friend/Rivial system. Its not perfect but I think its Much better than the default auto buddy buddy system in Mass Effect that demeans the value of said relationships. The like/dissaprove system was... ok as well but that resulted in me memorising what things to say to keep everyone happy where as if you pissed them off they would tell you to go **** yourself, leave or try to kill you 

Its a difficult thing to work out but a combination of of the friendship/Rivial & the Like/Dissaprove Systems while also throwing in a dash of the influence system from Kotor 2 WITHOUT those stupid morality meters would be the ideal mix for me I think.
How do you guys think the wheel will  function in DA3? Just like DA2 with no dominant tone & more of the 3 choice wheel? Or god forbid like ME3's 2 tone auto pilot wheel that hates Role playing and eats puppies:sick:( It was a budget compormise I know but that wheel needs to burn in the pits of hell for all eternity:devil:)

[KoyoteN7]

I definitely understand the complaints, but I believe Bioware could improve on the concept instead of getting rid of it completely. I feel like the next progression in RPGs is seeing your character develop (with you of course having the main input and steering that growth), especially when your character is voiced. I also think auto-dialogue was nicely implemented in DA2, introducing "small talk" and was not that obtrusive. Having a dialogue whee for every little remark is impossible really and auto dialogue helps bridge that gap.

Also @sylvius, I guess you are sarcastic but I actually loved that unfocused plot of DA2, I am sick and tired of saving the world for the gazilionth time.

I really hate the fact that Bioware is so affraid of fan backlash that they are now never going to move the genre forward and are going back to their usual RPG formula. Not saying it feels like it's going to be a bad game, I am certain it will be good but so far from what little information we have, definitely too safe. DA2 was so underrated in some things...

Modifié par KoyoteN7, 28 mai 2013 - 10:39 .