81 réponses à ce sujet

[mousestalker]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Only if you believe that somehow nobility and honor is stored in blood platlettes, but I don't subscribe to that. A kingdom needs talent and meritocracy to function, not some discarded notion of bloodlines and voodoo magic,

Admit it, you're on Anora's payroll aren't you?

[tmelange]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Only if you believe that somehow nobility and honor is stored in blood platlettes, but I don't subscribe to that. A kingdom needs talent and meritocracy to function, not some discarded notion of bloodlines and voodoo magic,

Yes, yes. We all believe in the democratic notions of meritocracy. I'm not talking about reality. I'm talking about the scenario as interior to the game world. In the world where royalty passes by blood right, it is unreasonable for Alistair to just....wander away when he's the last of a line that the entire country has fought for decades to preserve.

Modifié par tmelange, 17 janvier 2010 - 01:26 .

[ReubenLiew]

If I tell you that, I'm afriad I have to kill you

But no, that is what I believe wholeheartedly. I cannot stand by the retarded notion of royalty of bloodlines.

[tmelange]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Rowan was an uber-warrior, better than Maric, perhaps even better than Loghain.... She was awesome.

Well, then. She should have cut Maric's junk off, and stored it in a little box in her dresser. That would have solved THAT problem. lol

Modifié par tmelange, 17 janvier 2010 - 01:28 .

[_Aine_]

Frankly, I think Alistair just wants a strong woman to boss him around ;-)



He had completely turned me off after...well....after he was Alistair for a while... but then as I went to the end, happily with Zevran ( Alistair who?) <Zev at 100 adore and Alistair at 100 friendly> Ali decides to shock my PC at the landsmeet with pledges of his still-so-there love. If it hadnt bordered on the slightly creepy it would have been ( ok, it kind of was) quite romantic.



It's funny, because in the end I just *knew* that Alistair was all kinds of the wrong choice, but the draw of being told you were special above and beyond his duty was very sweet. I broke up with him and didnt lose a single approval point....which, in retrospect....well....isnt good i suppose lol I still reverted to a different save and tried to seduce the secret companion but still, very sweet

[SarEnyaDor]

In real life I don't believe in it, but as a Ferelden citizen I can see it being a really powerful symbol - without Calenhad's descendant the country will fall back into warring arlings and civil war... but maybe that's just the fear of change talking.

[ReubenLiew]

tmelange wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Only if you believe that somehow nobility and honor is stored in blood platlettes, but I don't subscribe to that. A kingdom needs talent and meritocracy to function, not some discarded notion of bloodlines and voodoo magic,

Yes, yes. We all believe in the democratic notions of meritocracy. I'm not talking about reality. I'm talking about the scenario as interior to the game world. In the world where royalty passes by blood right, it is unreasonable for Alistair to just....wander away when he's the last of a line that the entire country has fought for decades to preserve.

I'm a revolutionist *shrugs*

[tmelange]

shantisands wrote...

Frankly, I think Alistair just wants a strong woman to boss him around ;-)

He had completely turned me off after...well....after he was Alistair for a while... but then as I went to the end, happily with Zevran ( Alistair who?) Ali decides to shock my PC at the landsmeet with pledges of his still-so-there love. If it hadnt bordered on the slightly creepy it would have been ( ok, it kind of was) quite romantic.

It's funny, because in the end I just *knew* that Alistair was all kinds of the wrong choice, but the draw of being told you were special above and beyond his duty was very sweet. I broke up with him and didnt lose a single approval point....which, in retrospect....well....isnt good i suppose lol I still reverted to a different save and tried to seduce the secret companion but still, very sweet

Do you get this ending if you play a human noble, or only if you play an elf or mage?

[ReubenLiew]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

In real life I don't believe in it, but as a Ferelden citizen I can see it being a really powerful symbol - without Calenhad's descendant the country will fall back into warring arlings and civil war... but maybe that's just the fear of change talking.

I can understand how powerful a symbol something as pointless as bloodline is to the common, ill-educated swine of the public is, but I can't, under any playthrough, think that bloodline is somehow more important than meritocracy.
Entire chinese empires have died because of a useless heir, and Alistair has never shown me the abilities to lead, ever. I cannot believe that he makes a good king because there is no evidence that he makes an effort to lead.
If all there is to nobility is the ability to kill a rival family, usurp their lands and then butter up the king to see it your way, I'll have no part it in.

[ejoslin]

tmelange wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

And you don't have to be romancing him to marry him. You get a better epilogue card if you never romance him, actually. You can be at 99 love and he'll dump you, but 100 friendly and he'll marry you. It's all about duty for him.

Can you elaborate on this? What epilogue card do you get if you're not romancing him?

MAJOR ending spoiler ahead.  Specific epilogue card text for an uncommon epilogue card.  Do not read it if you don't want to know.  You have been warned:

The card reads as such:
Elissa married King Alistair in a lavish ceremony six months after his coronation, becoming the princess-consort of Ferelden.  As both their savior and new ruler, she proved incredibly popular among the people, and Alistair allowed his bride a great deal of leeway to act as she wished.

Edit: You will not get this card if you ever romanced Alistair, even if you dumped him.  If he ever loved the PC, you get the standard "beloved bride" epilogue card.

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 janvier 2010 - 01:41 .

[SarEnyaDor]

I always got the impression he didn't want to lead because he was worried he'd make the wrong decision and someone (or alot of someones) would be hurt - I think there are worse things than a king/president/leader-thingie who cares too much, like one who doesn't give a crap and thinks everyone should be falling all over themselves to kiss his feet first.



I think (and the cards seem to back me up a bit LOL) that with me as his Queen or advisor or Anora around he does okay and grows into his role because of his desire to help the people. You can learn to lead and govern better, you can't learn to care.



But then again, nobility and inbreeding and poor choices limited by whose daddy did who have doomed lots of great empires, including the Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians.



Man - sort of damned if you do and damned if you don't, huh?

[ReubenLiew]

ReubenLiew wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

In real life I don't believe in it, but as a Ferelden citizen I can see it being a really powerful symbol - without Calenhad's descendant the country will fall back into warring arlings and civil war... but maybe that's just the fear of change talking.

I can understand how powerful a symbol something as pointless as bloodline is to the common, ill-educated swine of the public is, but I can't, under any playthrough, think that bloodline is somehow more important than meritocracy.
Entire chinese empires have died because of a useless heir, and Alistair has never shown me the abilities to lead, ever. I cannot believe that he makes a good king because there is no evidence that he makes an effort to lead.
If all there is to nobility is the ability to kill a rival family, usurp their lands and then butter up the king to see it your way, I'll have no part it in.

Having said this, however, I'll probably let my male human make Alistair king just because he's haunted by his family's need for his duties to the king, and that means Alistair, no matter how else he feels about his ability to lead. He'd rather Fereldan suffer under a weak king than to have said he failed his family in his duties.

[ReubenLiew]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I always got the impression he didn't want to lead because he was worried he'd make the wrong decision and someone (or alot of someones) would be hurt - I think there are worse things than a king/president/leader-thingie who cares too much, like one who doesn't give a crap and thinks everyone should be falling all over themselves to kiss his feet first.

I think (and the cards seem to back me up a bit LOL) that with me as his Queen or advisor or Anora around he does okay and grows into his role because of his desire to help the people. You can learn to lead and govern better, you can't learn to care.

But then again, nobility and inbreeding and poor choices limited by whose daddy did who have doomed lots of great empires, including the Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians.

Man - sort of damned if you do and damned if you don't, huh?

Well, it's not so much that, it's that SO FAR he hasn't demonstrated the capabilities to lead anyone, less so a nation. When he has someone holding his hands he can probably do well, but what happens if his mate dies, will he let himself get bullied by the Orlesian Empress because of his naivety and weak-willedness?

[tmelange]

ejoslin wrote...

tmelange wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

And you don't have to be romancing him to marry him. You get a better epilogue card if you never romance him, actually. You can be at 99 love and he'll dump you, but 100 friendly and he'll marry you. It's all about duty for him.

Can you elaborate on this? What epilogue card do you get if you're not romancing him?

MAJOR ending spoiler ahead.  Specific epilogue card text for an uncommon epilogue card.  Do not read it if you don't want to know.  You have been warned:

The card reads as such:
Elissa married King Alistair in a lavish ceremony six months after his coronation, becoming the princess-consort of Ferelden.  As both their savior and new ruler, she proved incredibly popular among the people, and Alistair allowed his bride a great deal of leeway to act as she wished.

Edit: You will not get this card if you ever romanced Alistair, even if you dumped him.  If he ever loved the PC, you get the standard "beloved bride" epilogue card.

Really! This game never ceases to amaze me! i didn't realize there was yet ANOTHER variation. Thanks so much for clueing me in!

[KnightofPhoenix]

ReubenLiew wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

In real life I don't believe in it, but as a Ferelden citizen I can see it being a really powerful symbol - without Calenhad's descendant the country will fall back into warring arlings and civil war... but maybe that's just the fear of change talking.

I can understand how powerful a symbol something as pointless as bloodline is to the common, ill-educated swine of the public is, but I can't, under any playthrough, think that bloodline is somehow more important than meritocracy.
Entire chinese empires have died because of a useless heir, and Alistair has never shown me the abilities to lead, ever. I cannot believe that he makes a good king because there is no evidence that he makes an effort to lead.
If all there is to nobility is the ability to kill a rival family, usurp their lands and then butter up the king to see it your way, I'll have no part it in.

Having said this, however, I'll probably let my male human make Alistair king just because he's haunted by his family's need for his duties to the king, and that means Alistair, no matter how else he feels about his ability to lead. He'd rather Fereldan suffer under a weak king than to have said he failed his family in his duties.

Eh, why not make himself king and honor his father's memory, who many wanted to be King?
That's what my PC did. Screw Alistair.

[ReubenLiew]

Because as I said, he's haunted by duty. Taking the throne for himself would be, to him, honorless and betraying his father's memory. As such he's prone to some rather cruel and pragmatic outlook at life.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Because as I said, he's haunted by duty. Taking the throne for himself would be, to him, honorless and betraying his father's memory. As such he's prone to some rather cruel and pragmatic outlook at life.

Interesting character.
I should try to do someone like that. I always end up having a very ambitious PC.

[ReubenLiew]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Because as I said, he's haunted by duty. Taking the throne for himself would be, to him, honorless and betraying his father's memory. As such he's prone to some rather cruel and pragmatic outlook at life.

Interesting character.
I should try to do someone like that. I always end up having a very ambitious PC.

He is samurai

[SarEnyaDor]

Your father (if he was anything like my father *wink*) did say that Cousland's always do their duty and stopping the Blight was the most important thing....

[ReubenLiew]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Your father (if he was anything like my father *wink*) did say that Cousland's always do their duty and stopping the Blight was the most important thing....

Well, to be fair, making Alistair marry Anora was on the way, and it took only a day, and he needed to stop and buy milk home anyway

Although the one point that he crumbled was when he took the Dark Ritual...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Alistair will always be the puppy love. Sweet and highly romantic, but easilly shattered with the weight of responsibility.
Although technically none of this happens if you don't FORCE HIM TO TAKE THE THRONE, YE SELFISH WOMEN!

;D

Bingo. That is the correct answer. You have just won "Who Wants To Be a Millionaire".

Really, it is a bit of justice when Alistair does dump a female after making him king, when he's really not that keen on it. Even hardened, it's not like it's something he really wants to do, but feels he must to actually make any sort of positive difference, and wants it because he feels it necessary. Not because it will make him personally happy.

Besides, I much prefer Anora as queen anyway. She might be a ****, but she's a clever one, and in the cut throat world of politics, she not only survives, but thrives. Ferelden gets a golden age so long as she keeps the throne.

The only people who don't benefit directly are the elves, but personally, i think Anora's purges and ****-slapping the Alienages are needed if the elves are going to be anything but an explotable class. The elves are too weak and passive as a group in human lands, they need a "hardening" of their own. Maybe they will get the hint eventually that if they want to be equal to humans, they are going to have to fight together as a people and seriously upset the apple cart. A whole civil rights movement coupled with some guerilla warfare and serious armed resistance instead of petty riots in the alienages could go far in forcing the issue of equality, especially in a world where people really only respect you and your position if you back it up with some force.

[syllogi]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The only people who don't benefit directly are the elves, but personally, i think Anora's purges and ****-slapping the Alienages are needed if the elves are going to be anything but an explotable class. The elves are too weak and passive as a group in human lands, they need a "hardening" of their own. Maybe they will get the hint eventually that if they want to be equal to humans, they are going to have to fight together as a people and seriously upset the apple cart. A whole civil rights movement coupled with some guerilla warfare and serious armed resistance instead of petty riots in the alienages could go far in forcing the issue of equality, especially in a world where people really only respect you and your position if you back it up with some force.

Well, if Shianni becomes the bann or elder of the Alienage, she is a bit of a rabble rouser, although we don't get details.  Anora's previous treatment, and the potential future treatment, of the elves, is the main reason I always send her off to the tower covered in her dad's blood in every game.  I think running off with Alistair to have Grey Warden adventures would be the best romance ending, but for the good of the country, Anora needs to go.  No universities or so-called golden ages make up for what has already been done to alienage elves in Ferelden.  Anora deserves nothing but misery, in my games.

I wish we could have gotten a epilogue choice to make about what ultimately happens to her, like forcing her to become a sister in the Chantry or just executing her outright.  Nothing good can come of letting her hang around after Alistair is made king.

ELF LOVE 4 LYFE  

[ReubenLiew]

And this is why we need Anora.

To keep those dirty elves in line *nods*

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I myself found it for the betterment of Ferelden to keep her on the throne. A Golden Age is exactly what Ferelden needs to catch up with the rest of Thedas. Ferelden is still backwards and weak, barely out of barbarism. If they are to survive and prosper, and maybe even advance in power on the world stage, Anora is exactly what Ferelden needs. Universities, trade, ect.



For the rest of Ferelden, which outnumbers the elves, this does make up for it. The majority of Fereldens aren't interested in improving the lot of the elves, they want the country to actually be more than some wet-dog smelling backwaters hole. What Anora does is benefit the masses and the country beyond the interests of one single vector of society.



Besides, Golden Ages usually lead to revolutions, and Universities are hotbeds of dissent and social reform. Education can go a long way in opening up minds and bringing forth equality.



The elves of the cities are simply too passive for my liking, and until they are willing to stand up, unite, and push the issue themselves, I find it hard to feel much sympathy for them. The Dalish, as we see in the epilogue, ended up gaining alot of respect because they fought the darkspawn, and the Dalish, as snobby and boring as they are, do stand up and fight for themselves. If the city elves want respect, freedom, and equality, they better get used to doing the same, otherwise, they will forever be the pets of humanity.