162 réponses à ce sujet

[Maurader Sackboy]

I'm not that good, despite hundreds of hours of playtime. Always put points in at least the first three levels of fitness.

[Tonymac]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Tonymac wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Every playstyle has a break-even point where damage capacity becomes survivability, because things die so fast they can't deal much damage at all.

Obviously that point is different for each kit and the total damage peak capacity varies per kit, i.e. an Human Vanilla Engineer has less raw damage capacity than a Geth Infiltrator, which means that the engineer player needs more skill (and possibly equipment) to roughly compare to a Geth Infiltrator equivalent in damage output. Crowd Control capacities however are invaluable too. Unless you face cheating Geth Hunters, target incapacitation means no enemy damage aswell, and even though its still live and a potential threat, they can be disposed of quickly, which in turn means more survivability to the player aswell.



In short, I share a similar, if not the same sentiment as Red John does:
If your capacity to kill/incapacitate the enemy surpasses the enemies' capacity to kill you, the difference is equal to a proportional survivability increase.

And since killing them fast also depletes their spawn tickets faster, that also means not only does your survivability surpass effective enemy damage capacity (the one they can actually cause before getting killed), but it also proportionally decreases game-time, which is usually considered a good thing too and a major argument for any damage vs survivability discussion.

Best of both worlds.

^  Well stated and perfectly true in my opinion.

I would like to take a look at the opposing sight of the coin too:

The previous sentiment was made with a particulary skilled player in mind. The truth is obviously not every one in this MP population could align him-/herself with that method as s/he doesn't have the necessary skill to break-even as I had mentioned.

For such people, the discussion offers the exact opposite solution. Survivability means more applied damage output. A bleeding player can't deal damage (Annihilation Field/Drones/Turrets ignored for ease of argumentation), so the longer they can stay alive vs any given odds, the more they can apply their own damage capacity against the enemy.

That is what I'd consider a beginner's solution. Stay alive long enough to get to know the game's quirks and odds, to familiarize yourself with mechanics and tactics/strategies, learn and apply them and over time naturally acquire skill. The "evolution" from "survivability for damage" to "damage for survivability" playstyles is what I'd consider a natural step-up in game that comes with a steady learn-curve.

Obviously not everyone is entirely motivated (or has time to achieve) to get to such a point as is evidenced by the MP population we have (from which a fair portion does not consider Gold their go-to difficulty for fun matches and more like "OMG OMG WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!"), so my argumentation is not universally applicable as much as it is in fact a theoretic application of the game's own learn-curve that not everyone can or is willing to follow through.

You bring up a good point, and I think its one that many players as well as some of the developers seem to miss.  The best survivability option for players who think and shoot like us is to have above average damage output.  To get even better survivability means working on more headshots and more damage.  Its why I love this game - the harder you play the harder it gets.  The same goes for your damage - the more damage you do, the more successful you are.  The game gets faster as you tear rapidly through the wave budget - and faster is more fun because I have more challenge.

The opposite end of this spectrum is the speed runners.  Control the spawn points, use missiles, and snore through the game.  Am I good at it?  Na.  Never practced.  But they prove our point - damage is key to owning a wave rapidly and surviving.  I have seen videos of really good speed runnners - it takes a lot of teamwork and personal skill.  I just hate the lack of.......  headshots and ownage and getting up close and personal.  I prefer to look my enemies in the eyes before I stomp their guts out.

[dysomnium]

Damage output is a form of survivability, so long as you are quick, and accurate, about it.

I like the challenge of keeping myself alive by playing smart, not because I can take on three Marauder Shields simultaneously whilst staring at the sky and shooting nothing.

[Niran]

Survivability: the longer i stay alive, the more asses (friends) i can revive and the longer and more damage i can deal, apart from that, you always deal damage, no matter if you are a tank or not, but as tank you can deal damage way longer. One-shotting enemies is no help if they one-shot you aswell long before you even pull the trigger.

The difference between 1850 shields + 40/50% damage reduction of a Krogan compared to all other characters with only 700 shields is almost as big as our planet. I can tank 2 Primes and 3 Pyros while beeing shot by a Ravager and staggered by Drones with those 1850 Shields and 40% damage reduction (Krogan Vanguard) for ...until every enemy is dead. I can ensure you, no other character can endlessly tank that **** without dropping and dont tell me but you dont do any damage, im the one killing them all in about half a minute with my lolreegar + armor piercing rounds IV. Not to mention that i found fun in beeing able to Biotic Charge up to 11 times in a row making me virtually unkillable and giving me an insane amount of damage reduction afterwards (so much that i sometimes dont even take damage at all)

[LoneWolf3905]

50/50 on both. wana take hits as well as send them.

[Gao Qiu]

Tonymac wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Tonymac wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Every playstyle has a break-even point where damage capacity becomes survivability, because things die so fast they can't deal much damage at all.

Obviously that point is different for each kit and the total damage peak capacity varies per kit, i.e. an Human Vanilla Engineer has less raw damage capacity than a Geth Infiltrator, which means that the engineer player needs more skill (and possibly equipment) to roughly compare to a Geth Infiltrator equivalent in damage output. Crowd Control capacities however are invaluable too. Unless you face cheating Geth Hunters, target incapacitation means no enemy damage aswell, and even though its still live and a potential threat, they can be disposed of quickly, which in turn means more survivability to the player aswell.



In short, I share a similar, if not the same sentiment as Red John does:
If your capacity to kill/incapacitate the enemy surpasses the enemies' capacity to kill you, the difference is equal to a proportional survivability increase.

And since killing them fast also depletes their spawn tickets faster, that also means not only does your survivability surpass effective enemy damage capacity (the one they can actually cause before getting killed), but it also proportionally decreases game-time, which is usually considered a good thing too and a major argument for any damage vs survivability discussion.

Best of both worlds.

^  Well stated and perfectly true in my opinion.

I would like to take a look at the opposing sight of the coin too:

The previous sentiment was made with a particulary skilled player in mind. The truth is obviously not every one in this MP population could align him-/herself with that method as s/he doesn't have the necessary skill to break-even as I had mentioned.

For such people, the discussion offers the exact opposite solution. Survivability means more applied damage output. A bleeding player can't deal damage (Annihilation Field/Drones/Turrets ignored for ease of argumentation), so the longer they can stay alive vs any given odds, the more they can apply their own damage capacity against the enemy.

That is what I'd consider a beginner's solution. Stay alive long enough to get to know the game's quirks and odds, to familiarize yourself with mechanics and tactics/strategies, learn and apply them and over time naturally acquire skill. The "evolution" from "survivability for damage" to "damage for survivability" playstyles is what I'd consider a natural step-up in game that comes with a steady learn-curve.

Obviously not everyone is entirely motivated (or has time to achieve) to get to such a point as is evidenced by the MP population we have (from which a fair portion does not consider Gold their go-to difficulty for fun matches and more like "OMG OMG WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!"), so my argumentation is not universally applicable as much as it is in fact a theoretic application of the game's own learn-curve that not everyone can or is willing to follow through.

You bring up a good point, and I think its one that many players as well as some of the developers seem to miss.  The best survivability option for players who think and shoot like us is to have above average damage output.  To get even better survivability means working on more headshots and more damage.  Its why I love this game - the harder you play the harder it gets.  The same goes for your damage - the more damage you do, the more successful you are.  The game gets faster as you tear rapidly through the wave budget - and faster is more fun because I have more challenge.

The opposite end of this spectrum is the speed runners.  Control the spawn points, use missiles, and snore through the game.  Am I good at it?  Na.  Never practced.  But they prove our point - damage is key to owning a wave rapidly and surviving.  I have seen videos of really good speed runnners - it takes a lot of teamwork and personal skill.  I just hate the lack of.......  headshots and ownage and getting up close and personal.  I prefer to look my enemies in the eyes before I stomp their guts out.

Yeah, a gold/plat regular friend here took me for some plat jade speed runs.  It's pretty insane, and a very carefully calculated process.  It almost doesn't feel like you're playing a game anymore...though I have to admit the credits you get from 8-9 minute plat runs are pretty sweet.  In the long run, not for me though, and that's true for platinum difficult overall.

I sorta think that the metagame is designed to force you to damage-heavy builds and a non-camping playstyle, especially on higher difficulties.  The enemies pump out so much damage and are so good at overwhelming defenses that you're forced to use some defensive strategies that take advantage of the level architecture, such as using soft cover, or good crowd control powers that stagger and damage.  And once you're using those strategies well, the durability you get from fitness matters less and less, so you're only gimping yourself at that point by not going for high damage.

[Learn To Love Yourself]

Max Dmian wrote...

Damage.

Or you could go VanGOD aka 6/6/6/6/6

Uhh was a certain someone caught using this glitch?
Not sure if reference or joke

[kitty209]

destroyer with particle rifle and hawk missiles never go wrong, gives you pretty much both at once.

of course a juggernaut is welcome addition for plat games

Modifié par kitty209, 04 juin 2013 - 04:48 .

[oO Stryfe Oo]

koschwarz74 wrote...

oO Stryfe Oo wrote...

VoidNeXus 000 wrote...

Implying ridiculous damage output does not equal survivability

dead enemies don't shoot back

Solo the Thunderdome with a no fitness GI. Bring any weapon/gear/equips you want, but you cannot use Cyclonic Modulators.

Edit: The point being that ridiculous damage output alone doesn't equal jack **** when enemies can take you down by blinking.

true but this is an extreme example.

i think if someone can manage shield gate, he can survive even with a low shield. the worst enemy of a low shield kit is the one with high RoF weapon, like centurion or marauder. the difference between a higher shield kit and a low shield kit is that the higher shield kit can survive one more burst from the marauder's pheaston XXXV. two marauders shoot you at the same time: most of time it's a guaranteed down at higher difficulties.
other danger is a melee enemy like brute since melee breaks shield gate.
phantoms are dangerous for almost every kit so higher shield means nothing against them, instead only a good power or weapon can save you.

Phantoms are literally the only time I can think of where I'd say balls out damage is better, simply because they're balls out damage, quiet, and possess the ultimate "F U" ability. For everything else, there's no real reason I should subject myself to being made of glass when I can output slightly lower DPS with much better survivability, oftentimes killing boss enemies maybe a second or two later than the guy who min-maxed his build for damage.

The way this thread is portraying it, it's "Extreme Damage/No Survivability vs. Extreme Survivability/No Damage"

Realistically, it's more like "Extreme DPS/Low Survivability vs. Extreme Survivability/Respectable Damage". At least that's the way I'm choosing to look at it. The Melee-centric Juggernoob is kinda skewing some opinions, if you ask me.

[oO Stryfe Oo]

kitty209 wrote...

of course a juggernaut is welcome addition for plat games

A BSNer...welcoming a Juggy to a plat game...?

Modifié par oO Stryfe Oo, 04 juin 2013 - 08:49 .

[Lightwave]

Answer depends whether you PUG off-country, off-host or play with experienced friends over a good connection.

Personally it's survivability, can carry with confidence, can distract multiple bosses with confidence, can revive with confidence, can solo with confidence. I mostly PUG off-host, getting some very laggy cross-continent connections, rubber banding, invisible/silent enemies and so on. Humans are repeatedly downed in a single shot in such games, making them unplayable.

If I didn't PUG and had a good connection with friends, then I'd go for pure DPS, in a powerful experienced team most enemies drop before they do enough damage to kill you (carpet bombing Scion triplets aside).

[RakeWorm]

oO Stryfe Oo wrote...

kitty209 wrote...

of course a juggernaut is welcome addition for plat games

A BSNer...welcoming a Juggy to a plat game...?

Heresy! Someone get the kindle!

[DcIhNaGv3z]

DPS = surviveability in my book.

After playing enough Platinum with "squishy" kits, you learn that shields and health are overrated and are just not that helpful unless they are extremely high. For the most part, platinum is always shield-gating and health-gating you regardless of how much shields/health you have.