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Who here thinks the new ammo mechanic sucks?


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#251
sinosleep

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MentalKase wrote...

As long as I'm not FORCED to swap between weapons becuase I don't have enough ammo or can't find any through salvage to finish a level.


I highly doubt that's going to be an issue. I've been playing FPS /TPS games since the days of Wolfenstien, Duke Nukem, and Doom and I can tell you that in an average FPS/TPS you will NEVER run out of ammo for your standard weapons unless you can't hit the back side of a barn or are pumping enemies with 30 bullets instead of the 5 it takes to kill them. If a game featured a shot gun, pistol, sub machine gun, assault rifle, rocket launcher, and plasma canon most of the time the only ammo you really had to worry about was the rocket launcher and the plasma canon since they are clearly not meant to be used for entire levels being far more powerful than the rest of your arsenal. I'd assume ME 2 will be much the same. If your aim is true, then running out of ammo for all but the most powerful of weapons should be a non-issue.

#252
izmirtheastarach

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sinosleep wrote...

MentalKase wrote...

As long as I'm not FORCED to swap between weapons becuase I don't have enough ammo or can't find any through salvage to finish a level.


I highly doubt that's going to be an issue. I've been playing FPS /TPS games since the days of Wolfenstien, Duke Nukem, and Doom and I can tell you that in an average FPS/TPS you will NEVER run out of ammo for your standard weapons unless you can't hit the back side of a barn or are pumping enemies with 30 bullets instead of the 5 it takes to kill them. If a game featured a shot gun, pistol, sub machine gun, assault rifle, rocket launcher, and plasma canon most of the time the only ammo you really had to worry about was the rocket launcher and the plasma canon since they are clearly not meant to be used for entire levels being far more powerful than the rest of your arsenal. I'd assume ME 2 will be much the same. If your aim is true, then running out of ammo for all but the most powerful of weapons should be a non-issue.


QFT

#253
Murmillos

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Fro_McJoe wrote...



Since all of the guns are rail guns (Gauss, mass driver, mass accelorator, whatever) II dont understand why you just dont have regular ammo system of putting a clip into your gun with the rounds. I don't understand why the heat can't just disapait from the gun after a period of time.


Ammo of ME is derived from a block of metal which each shot is shaved off from, and then fired.



It's believed that your typical AR has around 5000-7000 shots per each block. The only thing in ME1 which limited how much you could fire at a given time was the heat build up.



They decided to keep the lore of the shaved block for the ammunition- but just changed the in game mechanics on how heat is dealt with. Instead of broken pseudoscience of passive cooling mechanic, we are now given a more believable ejectable heat sink mechanic.

#254
ramdog7

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Satanicfirewraith wrote...

oh yeah its so much better to have to take the same amount of time finding cover and reloading a weapon after every few shots and hoping like hell you find more clips on the next dead merc...

I mean its not like controling your fire and limiting it to short bursts could prevent you from overheating or nothing in ME 1... Shame the only way to cool a weapon down in ME 2 is to waste a clip and reload it.

YOUR SUCH A ****ING TROLL
ONLY TROLL THINK THAT WAYImage IPB

#255
Arrtis

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i imagine ME3 system will decide wether or not i buy it.

#256
Terror_K

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*raises hand

#257
Murmillos

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THERE HE IS! ARREST HIM! MAKE SURE HE STAYS SILENCED!

#258
It IS Lupus

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Its better than having to sit around and fire like 4 rounds and then have to wait for it to cool down cuz you were sabatoged only to have it happen another 5 times while waiting effectively leaving you stuck behind cover with no skills and no guns.

#259
Kalfear

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Arrtis wrote...

i imagine ME3 system will decide wether or not i buy it.


I got flamed by the shooter 20 on old site for saying much the same but I think your right!

My suspicion is ME3 will come out somewhere between the game mechanics of M1 and M2 as Bioware customers are mostly RPG players and buying Mass Effect 2 for the story, not the shooter mechanics.

I know for myself, if ME2 plays the way its been advertised (and I suspect regarding weapons) I would probably not buy ME3.

I love the universe, I love the characters, I love the books, I love the comic, but all that being said, I dont love Halo and other shooter games like that. If thats what Bioware is trying to become with this game, I know im not the only one that will say no thanks to the product after this.

Im really torn on ME2. I do love the story and universe and lore and possibilities so much that I just naturally want to like everything else. And because of that Ill buy ME2 (already pre ordered) but when Bioware turns around and says every soldier is going to be exactly alike except for color of armor and im going to have to micromanage ammo and fuel and weapons, it just sounds unfun to be honest.  If I want to use multiple weapons, I would choose to train up in multipole weapons. Having them forced on me and then being told the learning process totally removed (a RPG standard for as long as I been gaming, 30+ years, (started at 13) be it computer or table top) just reeks of dumbing down to try and attract a lower class of player (sorry but thats how I see it and the posts from that class back my assumption up so far).

So Ill play my Adept and Vanguard and Sentinal and Inflitrator and other Biotic/tech mixure classes so im not playing a cookie cutter soldier type guy. But if the announced weapon nerfs (and make no mistake, I and many many many many others considered the announced changes nerfs and dumbed down combat) effect that part of game. Well then Ill write the FIRST negative game reveiw of a Bioware product EVER from me.

Again, if I wanted to play Halo and other mindless games like that, I would. Mass Effect 1 set the stage to be SO MUCH MORE THEN THAT though. I hope and pray ME2 can live up to the hype and expectation level #1 set up for it.

Anyways, I think your right about how the changes will effect Mass Effect 3. We will all find out on the 26th. Reveiws have been mixed so far. The shooter sites like it, the RPG sites like it but with a big BUT warning added to it. I really hope Bioware hasnt lost contact with its true fan base first and foremost in its attempts to break into new genre players.

Personally I dont think Mass Effect (1,2, or 3) will ever attract the pure shooter crowd cause there simply to many words and cutsceens for them. Those types want action action action in their games and veiw story as throw away (IE: Halo or Fall Out3) annoyances only acceptable if they can be ignored for more shooting. From what I seen in ads, ME2 still has far to much story, plot, and romance for their liking.

#260
sinosleep

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The reasons that I'm personally having a hard time understanding what the anti-shooter crowd are complaing about are 1.) every last thread I've seen on this topic half the people in the thread mention a) 13 year olds B) ADD c) whatever other stupid cliche there is about people who enjoy shooters and 2.) when taking all the changes into account I really DO have a hard time figuring out why most of the complaints would be anything other than minor.

I mean, why not break it down feature by feature and see what we get?

1. combat
a.) aiming is no longer stat based but point and shoot. 1. for more like a shooter

b.) thermal clips 2. for more like a shooter. Although it comes with this caveat. If you've ever played any amount of shooter games you'd know that you NEVER run out of ammo for your standard weapons unless you can't hit the backside of a barn. If a game features a pistol, sub machine gun, assault rifle, rocket launcher, and plasma canon, the only ones you should ever run out of ammo for are the rocket launcher and plasma canon as they are clearly not standard weapons. Not only that, but PERSONALLY, I'll take limited heat sinks that allow me to actually DO SOMETHING about an overheated weapon than simply allowing it to cool off any day of the week.

c.) Biotics, still entirely stat based. 1. for rpg.

d.) Tech powers are still entirely stat based. 2. for rpg

e.) Weapon mods. Were actually more shooter oriented in ME 1 (you got incendiary ammo from boxes/dead enemies/etc) but are now stat point based. 3. for rpg

That pretty much wraps up combat 3/2 in favor of the rpg.

Exploration

a.) Normandy now has upgradable stats of it's own. 4. for rpgs.

b.) Mineral searches actually involve more than a simple point and click. 5. for rpgs

c.) No Mako, and less planets, but the planets themselves are far larger and more important to the main mission. Kind of a toss up so I'll just leave it up in the air. Rpg purist will site smaller numbers, I'll site the bigger missions on them.

Other

a.) Leveling. It's still here, it's extremely important, and even though there are less skill points to spread around, the skills they boost are actually more varied since each has it's own specialization. 6. for rpgs.

b.) Inventory/Weapon system. The old one was junk, and frankly I don't consider the need for vendor trash to be an essential aspect of an rpg so I don't really see the problem here. Devs have confirmed that there are both weapons specific to Shepard and weapons specific to companions so unique weapons are still in the game, you simply don't have to stock up on and later sell vendor trash in order to access them. It's not much of a change from ME 1 where once you unlocked Spectre gear it made all other weapons irrelevant. All Bioware have done kept the system while getting rid of the vendor trash. I consider this another toss up.


c.) Armor. I essentially feel the same way about armor that I do about the inventory/weapon system. There are obviously less sets of armor, but lets be honest. Who wore more than 2 or 3 different sets of armor in ME 1? Depending on your race they hardly dropped or sold any armor and once you got Colossus it was all irrelevant any way.

d.) Decryption no longer being a skill. This complaint I can see the fuss over as it essentially gets rid of an entire class. On the DA:O forums when people complained about the lack of a bash function I was quick to say that that would make a lot of people simply not bring rogue's along since that is their primary purpose. I thought that it would hurt the game, and feel the same way about it in mass effect. I know some others say the game shouldn't dictate what classes you bring along with you but since it's such a common thing to do I don't think that pushing you into the traditional warrior (soldier)/mage (adpept)/rogue (tech) party is an issue. 3 for shooters.

At this point I've got it 6/3 in favor of major rpg elements while having a few toss ups and explanations why.

That's how I see it and why I have a hard time understanding the it's not an rpg any more crowd.

Use the template or shut the hell up already. All I see is insults and vague accusations of Mass Effect turning into Halo. How about posting something of SUBSTANCE and maybe you'll get better replies.

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 janvier 2010 - 08:57 .


#261
Arrtis

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nah just likes games that work more off reflex then making your brain work a little.I like to play brain age...

#262
RyuKazuha

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I won't judge a game i haven't played yet, but i think kind of a dual system would have been better, for in-game consistency and reasons out of game. The possibility to change heat sinks to get a faster, more shooter like paste in combat may be a good reason oog, but even the most basic weapons in ME cooled themselves down, so it's kind of senseless ingame, to only have "heat storages" a couple of months later. Turning it upside down would make sense, but this way... dunno. I did like it the way it was and I'll adapt to the way it is.

#263
Satanicfirewraith

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MentalKase wrote...

As long as I'm not FORCED to swap between weapons becuase I don't have enough ammo or can't find any through salvage to finish a level.


But thats just it, you are forced to swap weapons, well it does it automaticly from what I understand.
So yeah you CAN run outta ammo/clips for your favorite weapon making it useless untill you find more clips.

#264
sinosleep

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Satanicfirewraith wrote...

But thats just it, you are forced to swap weapons, well it does it automaticly from what I understand.
So yeah you CAN run outta ammo/clips for your favorite weapon making it useless untill you find more clips.


So even though having ammo has practically NEVER forced you to switch weapons in the types of games in which it's common (TPS/FPS) Bioware is going to go ahead and make it an issue in the game in which they're trying to emulate those games? How on earth does that make any sense whatsoever? 

Play Far Cry 2 and tell me you can't get through the whole game without ever running out of ammo for your standard weapons. Play any of the COD games and say that. Play Gears of War, Metal Gear, Half Life, Quake, etc, etc, etc, etc. I could go on or days telling you how many FPS/TPS games I've played that featured "limited" ammo in which you could make it through the game using any weapon in your inventory bar the over powered ones like rocket launchers. If you've played the genre you'd know it to be true.

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 janvier 2010 - 02:06 .


#265
DPSSOC

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Figured I'd drop this in here rather than start another thread.



Each Thermal Clip has x amount of shots in it does anyone know if the mechanic is set up so if you eject a partially used clip you lose those shots? From what I understand this isn't like CoD where your ammo reads as x amount of bullets but x amount of clips. I'm actually hoping that you lose shots on partially expended clips because

a) more realistic - if you eject a partially used clip from a gun unless you pick it up you've lost those bullets and who's doing that in the middle of a firefight.

B) more of a challenge - not saying it makes the game more difficult but it means you've got to think about whether you can afford to lose the shots in the clip.

#266
Satanicfirewraith

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Kalfear wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

i imagine ME3 system will decide wether or not i buy it.


I got flamed by the shooter 20 on old site for saying much the same but I think your right!

My suspicion is ME3 will come out somewhere between the game mechanics of M1 and M2 as Bioware customers are mostly RPG players and buying Mass Effect 2 for the story, not the shooter mechanics.

I know for myself, if ME2 plays the way its been advertised (and I suspect regarding weapons) I would probably not buy ME3.

I love the universe, I love the characters, I love the books, I love the comic, but all that being said, I dont love Halo and other shooter games like that. If thats what Bioware is trying to become with this game, I know im not the only one that will say no thanks to the product after this.

Im really torn on ME2. I do love the story and universe and lore and possibilities so much that I just naturally want to like everything else. And because of that Ill buy ME2 (already pre ordered) but when Bioware turns around and says every soldier is going to be exactly alike except for color of armor and im going to have to micromanage ammo and fuel and weapons, it just sounds unfun to be honest.  If I want to use multiple weapons, I would choose to train up in multipole weapons. Having them forced on me and then being told the learning process totally removed (a RPG standard for as long as I been gaming, 30+ years, (started at 13) be it computer or table top) just reeks of dumbing down to try and attract a lower class of player (sorry but thats how I see it and the posts from that class back my assumption up so far).

So Ill play my Adept and Vanguard and Sentinal and Inflitrator and other Biotic/tech mixure classes so im not playing a cookie cutter soldier type guy. But if the announced weapon nerfs (and make no mistake, I and many many many many others considered the announced changes nerfs and dumbed down combat) effect that part of game. Well then Ill write the FIRST negative game reveiw of a Bioware product EVER from me.

Again, if I wanted to play Halo and other mindless games like that, I would. Mass Effect 1 set the stage to be SO MUCH MORE THEN THAT though. I hope and pray ME2 can live up to the hype and expectation level #1 set up for it.

Anyways, I think your right about how the changes will effect Mass Effect 3. We will all find out on the 26th. Reveiws have been mixed so far. The shooter sites like it, the RPG sites like it but with a big BUT warning added to it. I really hope Bioware hasnt lost contact with its true fan base first and foremost in its attempts to break into new genre players.

Personally I dont think Mass Effect (1,2, or 3) will ever attract the pure shooter crowd cause there simply to many words and cutsceens for them. Those types want action action action in their games and veiw story as throw away (IE: Halo or Fall Out3) annoyances only acceptable if they can be ignored for more shooting. From what I seen in ads, ME2 still has far to much story, plot, and romance for their liking.


QFT!!!
:D

#267
Rioteous

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Don't want to debate, but want to chime in on how this issue "contradicts" the system of ME1; it doesn't.



In the two years since ME1, weapon tech has made leaps and bounds at an unanticipated rate (possibly due to the acquisition and integration of Reaper tech from Soveriegn's remains). The new weapon models, which bring heavy firepower and chew through shields faster than before, also carry a massive overheating issue. To compensate, heatsinks were introduced as a temporary solution.



That's one "example" explanation. Might not be the truth, but it makes sense.

#268
Satanicfirewraith

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DPSSOC wrote...

Figured I'd drop this in here rather than start another thread.

Each Thermal Clip has x amount of shots in it does anyone know if the mechanic is set up so if you eject a partially used clip you lose those shots? From what I understand this isn't like CoD where your ammo reads as x amount of bullets but x amount of clips. I'm actually hoping that you lose shots on partially expended clips because
a) more realistic - if you eject a partially used clip from a gun unless you pick it up you've lost those bullets and who's doing that in the middle of a firefight.
B) more of a challenge - not saying it makes the game more difficult but it means you've got to think about whether you can afford to lose the shots in the clip.


Yes, if you have 40 shots (I believe this is the number for the AR weapon) and you shot 10 and then reload so you wont have to do it in the heat of the upcoming battle, you lose that heat clip. period. your not reloading the ammo so when you reload the heatsink, you lose the rest of the firing ability for that clip.

#269
goatman42

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I like the new ammo system because with the cooling system you could break the game by moding the gun so it never over heated.

#270
Murmillos

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Satanicfirewraith wrote...
Yes, if you have 40 shots (I believe this is the number for the AR weapon) and you shot 10 and then reload so you wont have to do it in the heat of the upcoming battle, you lose that heat clip. period. your not reloading the ammo so when you reload the heatsink, you lose the rest of the firing ability for that clip.

Nope.. 100% totally wrong, Wrong, WROOONG!.

Go view any - and I mean ANY - of the class videos.  Please.. if you are going to **** about the system, get a facking clue first.

If your AR has 40 rounds, and you fire only 15 and then reload your clip, your pool of "ammo" only drops by 15.  Not the full 40.

Modifié par Murmillos, 18 janvier 2010 - 02:41 .


#271
DPSSOC

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Satanicfirewraith wrote...

Yes, if you have 40 shots (I believe this is the number for the AR weapon) and you shot 10 and then reload so you wont have to do it in the heat of the upcoming battle, you lose that heat clip. period. your not reloading the ammo so when you reload the heatsink, you lose the rest of the firing ability for that clip.


Good to know, I don't mind the ammo system personally, though I'm sure it will take some getting used to.  The only part that concerned me at first was the possibility of you and your squadmates using a common ammo pool cause the image of squaddies trying to shoot through walls, each other, me, etc. is still fresh in my mind and I don't micromanage, at all, to my own detriment I know.  I have since heard that this is not the case so hoorah.

goatman42 wrote...

I like the new ammo system because with the cooling system you could break the game by moding the gun so it never over heated.


Been there, done that, with a Shotgun, and Sledgehammer rounds...good times.

#272
Satanicfirewraith

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Murmillos wrote...

Satanicfirewraith wrote...
Yes, if you have 40 shots (I believe this is the number for the AR weapon) and you shot 10 and then reload so you wont have to do it in the heat of the upcoming battle, you lose that heat clip. period. your not reloading the ammo so when you reload the heatsink, you lose the rest of the firing ability for that clip.

Nope.. 100% totally wrong, Wrong, WROOONG!.

Go view any - and I mean ANY - of the class videos.  Please.. if you are going to **** about the system, get a facking clue first.

If your AR has 40 rounds, and you fire only 15 and then reload your clip, your pool of "ammo" only drops by 15.  Not the full 40.

Oh whoopy do da, the counter resets...
The point is the ammo are the thermal clips, and once you "reload" your AR you lose the clip meaning any shots on that clip are gone. So if you only have 20 clips, each one capible of 40 shots each, and you take 10 shots off one then reload, you lose that clip. (and if its not then its straight out nothing more then a ammo system and BW lied about it being themal clips and not real ammo!)

#273
Murmillos

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Satanicfirewraith wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

Satanicfirewraith wrote...
Yes, if you have 40 shots (I believe this is the number for the AR weapon) and you shot 10 and then reload so you wont have to do it in the heat of the upcoming battle, you lose that heat clip. period. your not reloading the ammo so when you reload the heatsink, you lose the rest of the firing ability for that clip.

Nope.. 100% totally wrong, Wrong, WROOONG!.

Go view any - and I mean ANY - of the class videos.  Please.. if you are going to **** about the system, get a facking clue first.

If your AR has 40 rounds, and you fire only 15 and then reload your clip, your pool of "ammo" only drops by 15.  Not the full 40.

Oh whoopy do da, the counter resets...
The point is the ammo are the thermal clips, and once you "reload" your AR you lose the clip meaning any shots on that clip are gone. So if you only have 20 clips, each one capible of 40 shots each, and you take 10 shots off one then reload, you lose that clip. (and if its not then its straight out nothing more then a ammo system and BW lied about it being themal clips and not real ammo!)


*sigh* ... watch the solider video, go to 00:39.  Shepard pulls out the LMG, 80 rounds in the gun, a pool of 459 total left.  By 00:42, he fires 27 shots, 53 left - and reloads.  The LMG active ammo count goes to 80, the pool drops from 459 to 432 - a difference of 27.

So you never lose any "ammo" from pre-ejection.

As for the reasoning.  I'm waiting for the codex.  There have been many good player based ideas - we will just have to see how it pans out.  And no, BW never lied about anything yet, because they never gave specifics to be able to lie about anything, other then "terminal clips provide the method of reducing heat"

#274
TheConfidenceMan

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I thought weapons still cool down? It's just if it gets to the point where it overheats you can eject the heatsink.

#275
Murmillos

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TheConfidenceMan wrote...

I thought weapons still cool down? It's just if it gets to the point where it overheats you can eject the heatsink.

As we've seen and been told, there is NO passive cooling.  Its all done by collecting and ejecting heatsinks.