726 réponses à ce sujet

[FluxDeluxe]

Why even bother responding he banged on about no NG+ being the end of the world and as soon as that was resolved he's found a new pony to ride. The ammo system will purely be down to combat mechanics. This isn't a survival shooter like Deus Ex, SS2 or Bioshock ammo is not going to be scarce for the main weapons. They've introduced the mechnanic to bring it in line with other cover based shooters. Enemies appear, shoot off rounds, find cover, reload, pop from cover shoot, reload etc. It makes for a more fluid and versatile experience. Incidentally this is what they have always stated they wanted to achieve for the new combat system. Why would they introduce a mechanic that was contrary to their stated objective ?? Why has almost every review so far said that the combat has been drastically improved ?

Modifié par FluxDeluxe, 18 janvier 2010 - 03:01 .

[Starsyder]

I imagine the new lore explanation wild be something like this:



In the events of ME2, weapon technology has upgraded (yes, UPGRADED, give me a chance here, OP.) In ME1, weapons had the potential to overheat because the heat generated had nowhere to go but to stay in the weapon and naturally cool down. In ME2, all the heat generated by the weapon now transfers to the attachment known as thermal clips/heat sinks. This therefore creates the illusion of an ammo sytem because now, it seems, that for an assault rifle thermal clip, it takes 40 units of heat for the clip, not the weapon, to overheat, creating the illusion of "40 rounds of ammunition".



In summation, weapons in ME2 don't retain the heat generated, it is the thermal clips that store heat, so, therefore, weapons in 2185 never overheat! I say, it sounds like weapon technology HAS improved over Shepard's two-year slumber.

[Satanicfirewraith]

Murmillos wrote...

*sigh* ... watch the solider video, go to 00:39.  Shepard pulls out the LMG, 80 rounds in the gun, a pool of 459 total left.  By 00:42, he fires 27 shots, 53 left - and reloads.  The LMG active ammo count goes to 80, the pool drops from 459 to 432 - a difference of 27.

So you never lose any "ammo" from pre-ejection.

As for the reasoning.  I'm waiting for the codex.  There have been many good player based ideas - we will just have to see how it pans out.  And no, BW never lied about anything yet, because they never gave specifics to be able to lie about anything, other then "terminal clips provide the method of reducing heat"

Perhaps its you that needs a refresher course then?
THE HEAVY WEAPONS USE AMMO NOT THERMAL CLIPS.
Its already been stated by BW that the heavy weapons have limited ammo so you cant spam them the entire game.
This is something that does not bother me. I get why the new heavy weapons have a limited supply of ammo.
I am talking about the four standard weapons that now need to be reloaded! The sniper, the AR, the pistol and the shotty.
Those are also now limited firing weapons because of the new reload mechanic for them. (and as I said if the counters do that then its nothing short of a glorified ammo system and BW is lying to us saying its thermal clips!)

Modifié par Satanicfirewraith, 18 janvier 2010 - 03:04 .

[tommythetomcat]

Why bother coming up with rational explanations guys. It's been shown over 11 pages that the nay sayers have no real valid argument they just complain for the hell of it.

[TheConfidenceMan]

Murmillos wrote...

TheConfidenceMan wrote...

I thought weapons still cool down? It's just if it gets to the point where it overheats you can eject the heatsink.

As we've seen and been told, there is NO passive cooling.  Its all done by collecting and ejecting heatsinks.

Well if that's the case count me in with those who think it sucks.

Why wouldn't they cool down over time? They just stay hot forever? Makes no sense.  

[Satanicfirewraith]

FluxDeluxe wrote...

Why even bother responding he banged on about no NG+ being the end of the world and as soon as that was resolved he's found a new pony to ride. The ammo system will purely be down to combat mechanics. This isn't a survival shooter like Deus Ex, SS2 or Bioshock ammo is not going to be scarce for the main weapons. They've introduced the mechnanic to bring it in line with other cover based shooters. Enemies appear, shoot off rounds, find cover, reload, pop from cover shoot, reload etc. It makes for a more fluid and versatile experience. Incidentally this is what they have always stated they wanted to achieve for the new combat system. Why would they introduce a mechanic that was contrary to their stated objective ?? Why has almost every review so far said that the combat has been drastically improved ?

Yeah I along with many others banged on about how NG+ added to the replay value of the game and guess the _________ what BW reimplimented NG+ after the uproar from the public. They realized the mistake and fixed it.
I was also against the ammo then to, as I was one speaking out about it then too.

The point is I am not a mindless sheep and believe that every change is for the better. If I believe something looks, or is bad in some other way, I will speak my mind about it.
And when the backlash of people come here and complain after the 26th maybe BW will rething the stupidity of removing the passive cooling and making every weapon limited firing weapons.
That is a stupid move. and I will continue to speak my mind about it.

[Satanicfirewraith]

TheConfidenceMan wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

TheConfidenceMan wrote...

I thought weapons still cool down? It's just if it gets to the point where it overheats you can eject the heatsink.

As we've seen and been told, there is NO passive cooling.  Its all done by collecting and ejecting heatsinks.

Well if that's the case count me in with those who think it sucks.

Why wouldn't they cool down over time? They just stay hot forever? Makes no sense.  

So it can appeal more to the shooter crowd thats why!

Thats why at the begining of the solider vid Christina calls ME2 a shooter rpg. ME 1 was an rpg with shooter elements.
Thats why in the OXM report on XBL now Ray himself says ME 2 plays as much a rpg as it does a shooter.

Instead of improving on what they had they scrapped the system and went with one completely different. Thats not improving thats changing.

Modifié par Satanicfirewraith, 18 janvier 2010 - 03:25 .

[akintu]

Satanicfirewraith wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

*sigh* ... watch the solider video, go to 00:39.  Shepard pulls out the LMG, 80 rounds in the gun, a pool of 459 total left.  By 00:42, he fires 27 shots, 53 left - and reloads.  The LMG active ammo count goes to 80, the pool drops from 459 to 432 - a difference of 27.

So you never lose any "ammo" from pre-ejection.

As for the reasoning.  I'm waiting for the codex.  There have been many good player based ideas - we will just have to see how it pans out.  And no, BW never lied about anything yet, because they never gave specifics to be able to lie about anything, other then "terminal clips provide the method of reducing heat"

Perhaps its you that needs a refresher course then?
THE HEAVY WEAPONS USE AMMO NOT THERMAL CLIPS.
Its already been stated by BW that the heavy weapons have limited ammo so you cant spam them the entire game.
This is something that does not bother me. I get why the new heavy weapons have a limited supply of ammo.
I am talking about the four standard weapons that now need to be reloaded! The sniper, the AR, the pistol and the shotty.
Those are also now limited firing weapons because of the new reload mechanic for them. (and as I said if the counters do that then its nothing short of a glorified ammo system and BW is lying to us saying its thermal clips!)

The LMG is an Assault Rifle variant, not a heavy weapon.  Regardless, all of the other weapons follow the same mechanic.  Ejecting a partially spent heatsink does not waste the remaining shots in the clip.  Gameplay decision, live with it.  You could bother to watch the videos to learn how the ammo system works, as you clearly care a great deal about it.  That would probably be more productive that continually spouting misinformed nonsense about a gameplay mechanic that you clearly do not understand.

[Satanicfirewraith]

ah so its nothing more then a straight up ammo system huh?

SO BW was lying to us then! Good to know

[FluxDeluxe]

Satanicfirewraith wrote...

FluxDeluxe wrote...

Why even bother responding he banged on about no NG+ being the end of the world and as soon as that was resolved he's found a new pony to ride. The ammo system will purely be down to combat mechanics. This isn't a survival shooter like Deus Ex, SS2 or Bioshock ammo is not going to be scarce for the main weapons. They've introduced the mechnanic to bring it in line with other cover based shooters. Enemies appear, shoot off rounds, find cover, reload, pop from cover shoot, reload etc. It makes for a more fluid and versatile experience. Incidentally this is what they have always stated they wanted to achieve for the new combat system. Why would they introduce a mechanic that was contrary to their stated objective ?? Why has almost every review so far said that the combat has been drastically improved ?

Yeah I along with many others banged on about how NG+ added to the replay value of the game and guess the _________ what BW reimplimented NG+ after the uproar from the public. They realized the mistake and fixed it.
I was also against the ammo then to, as I was one speaking out about it then too.

The point is I am not a mindless sheep and believe that every change is for the better. If I believe something looks, or is bad in some other way, I will speak my mind about it.
And when the backlash of people come here and complain after the 26th maybe BW will rething the stupidity of removing the passive cooling and making every weapon limited firing weapons.
That is a stupid move. and I will continue to speak my mind about it.

Yeah man i'm no sheep man it's all about undermining the system and listening to rage yeah  ?

*Yawn*
Same ol' Mr Wraith with an overly inflafted sense of importance and a feeling of entitlement. I didn't like the removal of NG+ but i understood the reason for it just as i understood the reinclusion of such a mechanic when QA schedules and budget allowed said mechanic to be reintroduced. Are you really so gullible as to think that your little crusade made an iota of difference. It was money and time. It's the way you refuse to listen to any kind of sane or considered argument about the given subject that you're banging on about that get's me. 
I haven't played it but i hate it. 
Great argument.
When the 26th rolls round you'll hop straight on whether you actually like the mechanic or not and have a moan.
Yes that's right i can see the future. 
 
 

[akintu]

Satanicfirewraith wrote...

ah so its nothing more then a straight up ammo system huh?
SO BW was lying to us then! Good to know

alex_ladik wrote...
continually spouting misinformed nonsense about a gameplay mechanic that you clearly do not understand.

[DocLasty]

Satanicfirewraith wrote...

TheConfidenceMan wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

TheConfidenceMan wrote...

I thought weapons still cool down? It's just if it gets to the point where it overheats you can eject the heatsink.

As we've seen and been told, there is NO passive cooling.  Its all done by collecting and ejecting heatsinks.

Well if that's the case count me in with those who think it sucks.

Why wouldn't they cool down over time? They just stay hot forever? Makes no sense.  

So it can appeal more to the shooter crowd thats why!

Thats why at the begining of the solider vid Christina calls ME2 a shooter rpg. ME 1 was an rpg with shooter elements.

You know what an RPG with shooter elements is? A shooter rpg. You spent a LARGE chunk of the first game just walking around shooting things. It's not like it was something that came up every now and then, it's what you were doing almost half the time.

[SnowHeart1]

Look, it's basically a distinction between what's good for the storytelling and universe versus what is good for gameplay. It's true that, logically, in-game it makes no sense whatsoever to design these weapons without any form of passive cooling. None. The heatsinks would have to be so well insulated that it is pretty much impossible, and counterproductive. Unless it is a stealth-weapon with a concern about heat sensors, there is just no reason for this whatsoever. At least... in terms of the in-game universe.



Game mechanics, however, are a different story. Personally, I didn't have a problem with the old system, but I wouldn't disagree about there being room for improvement. The Devs decided they wanted to switch out cooling for ammo. They did the inverse with health (now you don't need medigel, you just passively heal). It *probably* won't be a big deal in game and, I would wager, probably will contribute to a better combat dynamic. But... it's not very logical.



They should have just called it an ammo system; it would have made more sense and caused less confusion.

[DocLasty]

And when the backlash of people come here and complain after the 26th maybe BW will rething the stupidity of removing the passive cooling and making every weapon limited firing weapons.

That is a stupid move. and I will continue to speak my mind about it.



There's not going to be any backlash - ammo systems have been in games for years. It's nothing most people have a problem getting used to, because if they've ever played a shooter besides Mass Effect, it's something they've already encountered. The only people who are going to complain about it are the people who've already made up their minds that it's going to be a horrible system that has them running out of ammo all the time, despite all evidence to the contrary.

[TheConfidenceMan]

Because no one could possibly have liked ME1 for how it didn't follow the mold of a standard shooter?



Seeing the fiction influence gameplay elements like the disc grenades or infinite ammo weapons with cooldown made it unique.

[DocLasty]

Because no one could possibly have liked ME1 for how it didn't follow the mold of a standard shooter?



It still doesn't follow that mold. You still have all the story elements from before. You still have the RPG elements - in fact, you have more ways and options to develop your character. The only thing that's changed is that you have to actually think a little bit during combat and apply yourself.

I

[FluxDeluxe]

TheConfidenceMan wrote...

Because no one could possibly have liked ME1 for how it didn't follow the mold of a standard shooter?

Seeing the fiction influence gameplay elements like the disc grenades or infinite ammo weapons with cooldown made it unique.

In the same way that a big nose and mutated ears make a person unique. Nobody is disputing the first game was good but exploration, combat, and especially the grenades were innefectual and repetitve at best. The grenades for example sucked a million times more than todays HE grenades and explosives. Spectre X AR plus two frictionles materials and Tungsten or Ripper rounds equaled ZERO challenge. You literally held down the trigger and sprayed the room until it died. Boring imo. The sense of urgency around the combat in the new game should be refreshing.

[elemental150]

I like limited ammo, I thought the passive cooling system was stupid. About half way through the first game you had weapons that could fire much more until overheating, couple that with a modification that enhanced heat reduction and you often had a weapon that could be fired for a long time before over heating. Near the end of the game when weapons had three mod slots and you could throw two frictionless materials on an AR and it would never overheat allowing you to fire indefinitely.



I hated how at the end of the game the only weapons that needed to be cooled where shotty (at least I was never able to build one that wouldn't overheat at some point).



The ammo system makes more sense and I for one welcome it

[ramdog7]

Murmillos wrote...

Satanicfirewraith wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

Satanicfirewraith wrote...
Yes, if you have 40 shots (I believe this is the number for the AR weapon) and you shot 10 and then reload so you wont have to do it in the heat of the upcoming battle, you lose that heat clip. period. your not reloading the ammo so when you reload the heatsink, you lose the rest of the firing ability for that clip.

Nope.. 100% totally wrong, Wrong, WROOONG!.

Go view any - and I mean ANY - of the class videos.  Please.. if you are going to **** about the system, get a facking clue first.

If your AR has 40 rounds, and you fire only 15 and then reload your clip, your pool of "ammo" only drops by 15.  Not the full 40.

Oh whoopy do da, the counter resets...
The point is the ammo are the thermal clips, and once you "reload" your AR you lose the clip meaning any shots on that clip are gone. So if you only have 20 clips, each one capible of 40 shots each, and you take 10 shots off one then reload, you lose that clip. (and if its not then its straight out nothing more then a ammo system and BW lied about it being themal clips and not real ammo!)

*sigh* ... watch the solider video, go to 00:39.  Shepard pulls out the LMG, 80 rounds in the gun, a pool of 459 total left.  By 00:42, he fires 27 shots, 53 left - and reloads.  The LMG active ammo count goes to 80, the pool drops from 459 to 432 - a difference of 27.

So you never lose any "ammo" from pre-ejection.

As for the reasoning.  I'm waiting for the codex.  There have been many good player based ideas - we will just have to see how it pans out.  And no, BW never lied about anything yet, because they never gave specifics to be able to lie about anything, other then "terminal clips provide the method of reducing heat"

DONT BOTHER WITH THIS TROLL HE JUST MADE THAT THEY RAN OUT OF THE CE

[Balek-Vriege]

elemental150 wrote...

I like limited ammo, I thought the passive cooling system was stupid. About half way through the first game you had weapons that could fire much more until overheating, couple that with a modification that enhanced heat reduction and you often had a weapon that could be fired for a long time before over heating. Near the end of the game when weapons had three mod slots and you could throw two frictionless materials on an AR and it would never overheat allowing you to fire indefinitely.

I hated how at the end of the game the only weapons that needed to be cooled where shotty (at least I was never able to build one that wouldn't overheat at some point).

The ammo system makes more sense and I for one welcome it

QFT

You could even setup any best Spectre weapon with 1 hyperrail, 1 frictionless (in some cases I think scramrail worked on pistol/assault but could overheat) and snowblind rounds and never overheat, but still do tons of damage because snowblind rounds automatically slowed the shots fired (while still insreasing dmg) to make up for hyperrail mod.  So you basically had an overpowered weapon that took mobs down twice as fast as most if not all other setups with no overheating.

[TheConfidenceMan]

You should be a badass by the end of the game. That's part of the appeal of an RPG. The things that held you back (overheating weapons, poor accuracy) earlier in the game are overcome. It could've been balanced better, but to just toss it all out to appease the Gears of War crowd is stupid.

[Stofsk]

I for one am pleased that the developers fixed the retarded 'lol unlimited ammo, no overheat' 'feature' of ME1's combat system. Not only was it game breaking, as evidenced by the fact with cunning selection of mods you could get a gun that basically never overheated, but it also broke my suspension of disbelief as a player. I also have problems with the codex explanation for how this fantastic firearms technology even works.

[Zoe Dedweth]

Be grateful you don't have to replace the cells to keep your shields going like they do in the books. Seriously - ammo = good. It's a proven system tested by time.

[DPSSOC]

TheConfidenceMan wrote...

You should be a badass by the end of the game. That's part of the appeal of an RPG. The things that held you back (overheating weapons, poor accuracy) earlier in the game are overcome. It could've been balanced better, but to just toss it all out to appease the Gears of War crowd is stupid.

There's being a badass and there's being invulnerable.  I love RPG's, I hate RPG's that allow you to so vastly out class your opponents.  If I can walk into a room and never overheat my weapon, never take damage  to anything other than shields, I may have fun for a bit but that get's old quick.  It actually got to the point in my last playthrough where I grabbed the worst armor and weapons I could find and was still walking around like the untouchable angel of death.

[elemental150]

DPSSOC wrote...

TheConfidenceMan wrote...

You should be a badass by the end of the game. That's part of the appeal of an RPG. The things that held you back (overheating weapons, poor accuracy) earlier in the game are overcome. It could've been balanced better, but to just toss it all out to appease the Gears of War crowd is stupid.

There's being a badass and there's being invulnerable.  I love RPG's, I hate RPG's that allow you to so vastly out class your opponents.  If I can walk into a room and never overheat my weapon, never take damage  to anything other than shields, I may have fun for a bit but that get's old quick.  It actually got to the point in my last playthrough where I grabbed the worst armor and weapons I could find and was still walking around like the untouchable angel of death.

Agreed even though you are the best of the best, it never made sense to me that by the end of the game the only thing that could take you down in a straight up fight was a pack of five or more krogan battle masters.  I get it..... I am the best of the best butstill, come on.

What it pretty much said is that somehow someway you are outclassing everyone and their mother for no good reason.....

Why are there not other people that are just as good if not better then you are in the universe.  I mean it is a Universe, right? not just a planet, or a city, or a village and the surrounding country side......

I want to feel powerful by the end of the game but I don't want to feel like I am invincable.  By the end of a new game plus, if you took AR as your bonus skill, all of your other abilities where gravey, you didn't need them and half the time you didn't use them because your pimped out AR would handle anything the game could throw at you....even on insane difficulty

Also I don't see how making the combat a little bit more inline with popular shooters takes away from anyhting else the game has to offer.  I keep hearing people **** about there being less skills and this and that. 

If the first game had the same amount of skills that the second game has but in the second game they gave you all the skills they had in the first game, the same people would be ****ing about the fact that they added all these useless skills.  Consolidating skills and eleminating useless ones doesn't make the game dumbed down it makes it more streamlined.  Why have a system more complicated then it needs to be just so the "true" RPG fans can get their rocks off.

To top it all off Mass Effect 1 was never a RPG, it was a shooter/RPG hybrid.  People seem to forget that about the first game.  They nailed the RPG elements down and some would argue they did a little bit of over kill, this time around they have nailed the combat.  Maybe the RPG elements will be lacking but I can't make that call until I play the game.

I also love how people argue that with the new group cool down feature you can spam your abilites but in the next breath state that adding an ammo system that doesn't allow you to spam your over powered rifle is some how two different things.

SPAMMING IS BAD

Modifié par elemental150, 18 janvier 2010 - 07:42 .