726 réponses à ce sujet

[DocLasty]

I never said otherwise.

[Daeion]

Soruyao wrote...

I'm starting to think the best possible explanation is that a new type of omni-tool upgrade allowed any user to spam sabotage repeatedly.

If that happened, then the old kind of gun would be completely useless and obsolete almost instantly (Because omnitool upgrades are just information and some basic parts.)

The old heat sinks had a design flaw that allowed them to be hacked into overheating themselves and thus needed to be replaced. The replacements were a new kind of disposable heating system that lacked the potential for engineers to completely shut them down, but they also had the benefit of allowing the guns to do more damage and spend less time waiting to cool down.  Because the cooling unit had to be completely removed to accomodate the heat sink system, passive cooling was impossible. (This has the benefit of explaining both the abscence of sabotage and the heat sinks at the same time!    )

Anyway, people who say they don't like this because of lore lack the creativity to understand that in a sci-fi universe, almost any change can be explained in one way or another. This is one of the easiest sci-fi technology issues I've ever seen people be confused about.

It's not that they lack an imagination, it's that they simply want an actual lore reason from BioWare that explains why this change was made and then they can go on their way all happy.

[Daeion]

DocLasty wrote...

I never said otherwise.

I know, after I hit submit I was like crap, he never said the other side wasn't and knew I had jumped to a conclusion, for that I do appologize.

[Sergiyftw]

Im sure these heatsinks won't be hard to come accross.... just stack on tons of em and forget about the "ammo system"

I myself quite like the idea of a 'reload' animation.. i find it badass.

[Daeion]

Massadonious wrote...

RogueAI wrote...

I do. We all know why it was done (because of the 12 year old shooter fanbase). I guess some people would rather be delusional than accept the truth.

Oh, well...

I agree. Using frictonless materials mods and holding down the trigger (thus defeating the purpose of the overheating mechanic) is much more RPG'ish.

Technically it would be because you had to actually upgrade and mod your weapon and make the choice not to use other mods or ammos that produced high ammounts of heat.

[Daeion]

Soruyao wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

I still call for manual cooling when your not fighting...just instantly give back 1 thermal clips worth of ammo.

If you aim badly enough that you run out of ammo with your main gun, you deserve to have to switch.   Why is it that death has to be the only way to penalize players for playing badly?

If it's a huge problem switch to easy mode so you can kill stuff with less bullets.

Because you happen to know exactly how the ammo system works and thus know that the only way to be short of ammo would be because you suck, not that they implimented areas where ammo is more scarce.

[Daeion]

Soruyao wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

Soruyao wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

I still call for manual cooling when your not fighting...just instantly give back 1 thermal clips worth of ammo.

If you aim badly enough that you run out of ammo with your main gun, you deserve to have to switch.   Why is it that death has to be the only way to penalize players for playing badly?

If it's a huge problem switch to easy mode so you can kill stuff with less bullets.

As i said before...i probably wont be able to play soldier on the harddest mode*would get too annoyed with it*
Thus reducing the amount i can replay the game=bad
penalizing me through replayablility seems to be a high price to pay
*who says ammo restrictions are the onyl way to challenge a person?=
from what i can tell if they add more enemy biotics it would make the game a lot harder.
i find length and replayability to be just as important as how fun the game is.
besides penalty for skill isnt what RPGs do that sounds more like what shooters do rawr dang shooters ruining parts of my game*

I think you might be selling yourself short.  How many games have you played that have an ammo mechanic?

Maybe you'll suprise yourself and after running out of ammo once or twice, you'll adapt and start having fun with it.  Don't sell yourself short.   We all improve when we put our minds on learning and practice. 

Also, I have to ask, why do you have to play on the hardest difficulty mode?  It kind of sounds like you're complaining that hard mode looks hard.   This confuses me.  Harder difficulties are actually supposed to be more difficult.   (ME1 did NOT accomplish that at all.  Insanity mode was just slow, it wasn't harder.)

Also:  You can pause the game during combat to aim at someone.  If you do this, you will likely rarely miss.   Why not do this when you run low?

because constantly pausing combat is so fun.  Honestly it's probably the thing that annoyed me the most about ME and DA:O, granted I could just let my people do their own thing but I'm a min/maxer and a control freak.

[Daeion]

Arrtis wrote...

ERM i like using one weapon i know about changing weapons
i do not find that fun
ammo restrictions to the point where i will be forced to use a weapon i dont want to a great deal of the time is not what i like
not because i cant shoot
but because they dont let you have enough bullets
as a vanguard i can use one weap cause i have powers to fall back on
as a soldier guns are your only option and i would like to use one.

I have to say that liking only one weapon is kind of a cop-out, having multiple options and finding the best tool for the situation is part of what makes a game imersive.

[Daeion]

Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

I think some kind of change was required. This might make the combat better, but I think trying to explain it in the continuity is gonna suck. I mean, why do they throw the heat sinks away? Why not rotate them in and out of the gun? They'll cool down eventually, you know. And I really hope guns cool down on their own if you don't use them for a while, because otherwise that doesn't make any sense at all.

This right here pretty much sums up what I find stupid with the new ammo system, the fact that things suppsoedly can't cool down on their own regardless of the time between uses.

Modifié par Daeion, 21 janvier 2010 - 05:27 .

[Daeion]

alex_ladik wrote...

Satanicfirewraith wrote...

alex_ladik wrote...
Your AR cools down just fine on its own.  It just can't fire a single shot without overheating, perhaps catastrophic overheating, without the coolant provided by the thermal clips.  Quite simple, really.

And you sir would be wrong.
The game auto switches your weapons when you run out of clips and reach maximum heat level.

This in no way responds to my point.  I'm discussing lore, not gameplay mechanics.
Soruyao put together an outstanding explanation on the math involved: http://rhue.blogspot...mmo-part-1.html

The idea is that the weapons now, without the active cooling system, would essentially blow up in your face after 1 shot.  The active cooling system allows them to fire continually for multiple shots, but the coolant/heatsink must be replaced after 40 rounds, for an AR for example.  As a safety mechanism, the gun will not allow itself to be fired without a thermal clip, because it would destroy itself, and quite possibly kill the shooter, you.

So they are not retaining heat.  If you fire 35 rounds, then your coolant has only enough for 5 more rounds before needing to be refilled.  This is not because your gun is still hot hours later.  It is because you have depleted 90% of the coolant, leaving only enough for 5 more shots before the safety shutdown cuts in.

Hope that makes sense.  I'm still responding because you seem genuinely confused, and I feel like it would be helpful if you would ask questions about what you don't understand.

If a weapon blows up after one shot because of heat then that's power weapon design because a soldier may get out into the field and find themselves fighting something that doesn't use thermal clip weapons and thus no way to keep fighting when they run out.  Basic commonsense would say that the weapon should be able to fire for a short ammount of time before heating becomes an issue and then would cool down overtime while said soldier was evading the the enemy. 

If we go with the arguement that they now need heat sinks because the weapons fire larger ammo which I think is what the blog proposed, then why wouldn't anyone have the foresight to include a mode switcher where you code revert back to the smaller rounds of past models incase you ran out of heatinks in the middle of a battle.

[Daeion]

Sergiyftw wrote...

Im sure these heatsinks won't be hard to come accross.... just stack on tons of em and forget about the "ammo system"
I myself quite like the idea of a 'reload' animation.. i find it badass.

I would guess that like most ammo systems you will have a max ammount of clips that you can carry so that you can't jsut load up on them and forget about them, the whole point of adding an ammo system is to make you think.  Also, they could have just left the previous system and added an animation for when your weapon overheated.

[Yojimboo]

Daeion wrote...

Sergiyftw wrote...

Im sure these heatsinks won't be hard to come accross.... just stack on tons of em and forget about the "ammo system"
I myself quite like the idea of a 'reload' animation.. i find it badass.

I would guess that like most ammo systems you will have a max ammount of clips that you can carry so that you can't jsut load up on them and forget about them, the whole point of adding an ammo system is to make you think.  Also, they could have just left the previous system and added an animation for when your weapon overheated.

Correct, if you could stockpile ammo there would be a huge inbalance in later game, especially with Heavy Weapons.

[Daeion]

Yojimboo wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Sergiyftw wrote...

Im sure these heatsinks won't be hard to come accross.... just stack on tons of em and forget about the "ammo system"
I myself quite like the idea of a 'reload' animation.. i find it badass.

I would guess that like most ammo systems you will have a max ammount of clips that you can carry so that you can't jsut load up on them and forget about them, the whole point of adding an ammo system is to make you think.  Also, they could have just left the previous system and added an animation for when your weapon overheated.

Correct, if you could stockpile ammo there would be a huge inbalance in later game, especially with Heavy Weapons.

IMO an interesting way of doing a backup system would have been if you
could have a squad mate toss you an extra clip if you ran out, sort of
how like in ODST you could take an allies gun.  Would have made for and
interesting animation, shep yelling to grunt that they need a clip,
grunt tosses him a clip and the clip gets shot out of the air by the
enemy.

Modifié par Daeion, 21 janvier 2010 - 06:19 .

[Satanicfirewraith]

Ok so after watching Jesse demo the game via the xfire demo, I still am convinced that the ammo system is retarded..

But that is the ONLY issue it seems I have from what I seen. the game itself looks absolutely amazing!

[Soruyao]

Daeion wrote...



If a weapon blows up after one shot
because of heat then that's power weapon design because a soldier may
get out into the field and find themselves fighting something that
doesn't use thermal clip weapons and thus no way to keep fighting when
they run out.  Basic commonsense would say that the weapon should be
able to fire for a short ammount of time before heating becomes an
issue and then would cool down overtime while said soldier was evading
the the enemy. 



If we go with the arguement that they now need
heat sinks because the weapons fire larger ammo which I think is what
the blog proposed, then why wouldn't anyone have the foresight to
include a mode switcher where you code revert back to the smaller
rounds of past models incase you ran out of heatinks in the middle of a
battle.

First of all, I think it's more that the rounds are
faster than it is that they're larger, though that could be an aspect
as well.



Maybe they couldn't fit both systems into the same gun?   If
the machinery is different enough for how the gun works, it could be
like trying to have an uzi that is also a pump action shotgun.  You could potentially do it, but it would be large and unwieldy.



Although,
if the differences in how much damage they do and how easily they can
be shut down by sabotage spam, it would be more akin to a shotgun that
when you run out of ammo, you can stuff with gunpowder and fire like a
musket. Even if you could do such a thing, why would you want to?

Satanicfirewraith wrote...

Ok so after watching Jesse demo the game via the xfire demo, I still am convinced that the ammo system is retarded..
But that is the ONLY issue it seems I have from what I seen. the game itself looks absolutely amazing!

Did you hear the part where they said if you're low on ammo, more heat sinks would drop?

I agree with you for the rest though, the game does look amazing.  

[Satanicfirewraith]

Its not just about running out of ammo, because if you watched the CES vids, someone did run out of ammo, and he wasnt just blind firing.



I think the whole new ammo system is a cheap copout, so they could grad more of the shooter fan masses. Which isnt a bad thing per say, untill it changes the fundamentals of the original game....

I do believe that they shoulda/coulda improved the old system to better balance it, instead of scrapping it for a generic shooter mechanic.

[Schneidend]

Shooting is also a "generic shooter mechanic." You could try complaining about that.

[Soruyao]

Schneidend wrote...

Shooting is also a "generic shooter mechanic." You could try complaining about that.

So is the concept of cover.    We press A to press into cover instead of just smooshing against it magnetically when we're near it.  Gears of war did that!   They're dumbing down the cover system to appeal to shooter fans!

[Sabre120]

I dislike the fact that it breaks the lore and continuity of the ME universe. BUT I do like it, it will make for much more tactical combat

[Murmillos]

Sabre120 wrote...

I dislike the fact that it breaks the lore and continuity of the ME universe. BUT I do like it, it will make for much more tactical combat

How?  HOW?!

[Satanicfirewraith]

Schneidend wrote...

Shooting is also a "generic shooter mechanic." You could try complaining about that.

And well if I had a problem with the shooting in the game I would. but obviously your heads to far up your....  for you to get thats not what I dont like about the game. 

[Soruyao]

Satanicfirewraith wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Shooting is also a "generic shooter mechanic." You could try complaining about that.

And well if I had a problem with the shooting in the game I would. but obviously your heads to far up your....  for you to get thats not what I dont like about the game. 

It was there to point out how silly your logic looks to everyone else.  You say you don't like ammunition because it's like a shooter, but you like all the other stuff that is like a shooter?  Why?  What's the difference?  Why don't you have an issue with taking cover or shooting people?

[Kalfear]

Soruyao wrote...

Satanicfirewraith wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Shooting is also a "generic shooter mechanic." You could try complaining about that.

And well if I had a problem with the shooting in the game I would. but obviously your heads to far up your....  for you to get thats not what I dont like about the game. 

It was there to point out how silly your logic looks to everyone else.  You say you don't like ammunition because it's like a shooter, but you like all the other stuff that is like a shooter?  Why?  What's the difference?  Why don't you have an issue with taking cover or shooting people?

You know whats silly, you argueing with like 5 other people about these topics.

Why are you so damned threatened by others expressing their veiws you have to try and talk down to them and make stupid childish examples that dont apply to all their posts or comments?

You tried the same thing to one of my posts, made you look beyond silly, really made you look like a illiterate jack$$$ but thats besides the point.

Why cant people have concerns with out you and your minority crowed spazing out about their concerns?

Thats what seems silly to me!

The game will come out, the majority will have their say, ME3 will be changed to satisfy those concerns back into a more traditional RPG, the world will be a better place.

[Schneidend]

Kalfear wrote...

Kal, buddy, I tried to argue reasonably and give you and satanic the benefit of the doubt in the thread just like thos one on the old boards. My points were consistently ignored while you both repeatedly quoted those you could easily refute. I tried to make the effort to take you two seriously, and you failed to refute my points. This leads me to the simple conclusion that you could not refute my points. Why should I take you seriously if you don't even have enough of an argument to debate properly?

Moreover, as another poster said, my latest post was intended to point out a fatal flaw in the argument against ammo. Bioware is supposedly "making this game cater to shooter fans." You have both stated this on numerous occasions. Well, contrary to popular belief, the game was already a shooter. If you don't like shooter elements, then Mass Effect may not be your game.

[Schneidend]

Kalfear wrote...

The game will come out, the majority will have their say, ME3 will be changed to satisfy those concerns back into a more traditional RPG, the world will be a better place.

Sorry for double-posting, but I feel I have to address this specifically, for the umpteenth time. Mass Effect 1 wasn't even a traditional RPG. Moreover, the RPG elements of ME2 are also being deepended significantly over the first game:

• The classes are being differentiated to a far greater degree. In the original game, the only unique abilities were Singularity, Neural Shock, and AI Hacking. Now there are six, one for each class. That's 100% more unique abilities. Choosing your class is now far more significant.
• Armor is no longer distinguishable only by looks and three numbers. Now armor actually does things besides protect the wearer. You can now customize your armor.
• The abilities have not been lessened, they have been streamlined. Each character may only appear to have six abilities, but each skill changes significantly at each level, each skill can evolve in one of two different ways, and you will only have enough points to max out 2-3 skills. These aspects of the new system multiple the amount of choices available several magnitudes. No longer are maxed builds possible, so each point spent is a major decision in developing your abilities.
• Research and upgrades allow you to customize your equipment's potency. Mods functioned this way in ME1, but they weren't permanent, and really didn't require any effort on the player's part to require. Some mods were so effective that there was no reason not to use them. Now, with finite resource you must actually go out and earn, it's up to the player to decide how their equipment improves, and not some random loot system.

Hm, I dunno, to me that all sounds like pretty heavy stuff my poor shooter player brain couldn't possibly fully grasp. I think I'ma go play Halo instead. Duh hurrr...