211 réponses à ce sujet

[megabeast37215]

MasterReefa wrote...

I've said it before and i'll say it again.
Crusader > Claymore
L2P pc scrubs

QFT

You and I ripped chit up with it the other day. The Geth didn't stand a chance. 

My triple kill on 3 Pyros is the stuff of legend.

[MaxShine]

Annomander wrote...

MaxShine wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Maxshine misunderstands the bug regarding the crusader.

Old school projectile weapon:
Press fire
Signal is sent to host / server
Gun fires
Projectile paths
Projectile then hits anything which it passes through


The crusader, is a different kettle of fish.

Press Fire
Shot fires instantly
Shot does not fire where your crosshair is indicating

Doesn't the Crusader work like this?:

point crosshair at some location
shoot
after the fire delay the shot hits exactely where I pointed to when I pulled the trigger

Nope.

The crusader, when fired, grabs the location that your crosshair was 0.2 seconds BEFORE you pulled the trigger.

So, whatever position your crosshair was at, 0.2 seconds before you pull the trigger is where the bullet hits. Not quite the same as firing a rocket launcher in Q3/UT, where the projectile is delayed by latency, but fires from and to the exact location it was supposed to, merely delayed by your latency to the server.

Strange behaviour, I always lead my shot with the Crusader when a target moves sideways and it hits, so I thought there was a firing delay, but it actually hits because I was on the target 0.2 before... Oh well...

Modifié par MaxShine, 25 mai 2013 - 11:35 .

[MP-Ryan]

Sounds like BioWare was trying to replicate slug travel over distance on a hitscan weapon. If you think of it that way, it actually makes a lot of sense.

Where it doesn't make sense is because we already have projectile weapons, which do this perfectly. I suspect the problem is they couldn't easily add the armour-piercing capabilities of the Crusader to a projectile weapon, so we ended up with his hybrid instead.

Basically, there's a steadying penalty where you have to remain on a target to hit it. THAT said, 0.2 seconds is a whopping 20 milliseconds. While hitscan weapons typically give instantaneous results, this weapon does not - but that doesn't mean you can't compensate for it (and anyone who thinks they're being impeded in their overall aim by a 20 millisecond delay has a really skewed idea of human reaction times). Does it prevent smooth, continuous movement from target to target? Sure.... but when you do that with a hitscan weapon, you're not really aiming intentionally, you're tracking a target path that you figure the targets will remain on as you aim over them.

In short: lead or hold on your targets. Yes, it's irritating if you are used to normal hitscan mechanics, but if you treat it like a projectile weapon you'll be fine.

I actually quite like my Crusader X on some classes.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 25 mai 2013 - 10:43 .

[ClydeInTheShell]

OK. I like the gun a lot but I understand now how its delay is kinda dumb.

[Tybo]

megabeast37215 wrote...

MasterReefa wrote...

I've said it before and i'll say it again.
Crusader > Claymore
L2P pc scrubs

QFT

You and I ripped chit up with it the other day. The Geth didn't stand a chance. 

My triple kill on 3 Pyros is the stuff of legend.

megabeast37215 wrote...


I agree it can be frustrating until you learn to compensate for the aim delay. However... once your L2deal with it... it's one of the best weapon in the game. I love it on the Destroyer with ROF bonus... if I miss... I don't care b/c the follow up shot is right behind it. I also... very seldom aim down the sight with the Crusader... only at VERY long range. It works so much better if you just spam the trigger with haphazard aim. 

The Crusader:  Punishing good aim and rewarding bad since 2012

[Cyonan]

megabeast37215 wrote...

MasterReefa wrote...

I've said it before and i'll say it again.
Crusader > Claymore
L2P pc scrubs

QFT

You and I ripped chit up with it the other day. The Geth didn't stand a chance. 

My triple kill on 3 Pyros is the stuff of legend.

How does you doing well with the gun negate the fact that it punishes good aim?

[Heldarion]

Some stuff said in this thread is outright ridiculous, or I'm unnaturally good at adapting to weapons that fire with some sort of a delay (I don't even feel the Javelin's 0.25s delay). Crusader takes some time getting used to, and you will still occasionally miss a shot, but you will still be hitting a huge majority of your shots once you figure it out.

The amount of hate is baffling.

Modifié par Heldarion, 25 mai 2013 - 11:01 .

[Tybo]

Heldarion wrote...

Some stuff said in this thread is outright ridiculous, or I'm unnaturally good at adapting to weapons that fire with some sort of a delay (I don't even feel the Javelin's 0.25s delay). Crusader takes some time getting used to, and you will still occasionally miss a shot, but you will still be hitting a huge majority of your shots once you figure it out.

The amount of hate is baffling.

Javelin delay doesn't bother anyone, because it still shoots where you point.  

[kouzrah]

tyhw wrote...
The Crusader:  Punishing good aim and rewarding bad since 2012

That's probably why I enjoy the gun so much
Seriously, I had no idea it worked that way, it's absurd xD
I never felt handicapped by this but my eye-hand coordination must be laggy so I don't really notice clicking 20ms after the crosshair was on the target.

Modifié par kouzrah, 25 mai 2013 - 11:22 .

[Knockingbr4in]

The gun has AIDS and thread's title is right. This, however doesn't mean you cannot make it work for yourself. Just don't expect to beat any time record with this POS delay.

[Chealec]

kouzrah wrote...

tyhw wrote...
The Crusader:  Punishing good aim and rewarding bad since 2012

That's probably why I enjoy the gun so much
Seriously, I had no idea it worked that way, it's absurd xD
I never felt handicapped by this but my eye-hand coordination must be laggy so I don't really notice clicking 20ms after the crosshair was on the target.

It's more like 200ms lag and it's really noticeable with a fast rig/connection.

The gun is great for splattering Atlases or Collectors - you know, stuff where you can't really miss. Trying to headshot Nemeses though makes me want to play drunk so that my aim is screwed up enough to compensate.

[Grun7mas7er]

tyhw wrote...

The Crusader:  Punishing good aim and rewarding bad since 2012

Guess this is why I'm not that bad with the Crusader... 

edit: because I have tunnel vision aim anyway, so the Crusader doesn't bother me as much. lol.

Modifié par Grun7mas7er, 26 mai 2013 - 12:26 .

[Chealec]

MasterReefa wrote...

I've said it before and i'll say it again.
Crusader > Claymore
L2P pc scrubs

OK - I'll bite, learn to aim console scrubs ... oh, you can't, analogue sticks - sorry, I feel for you, I really do; it must suck to be forced to use such a retrograde, Micky Mouse control system

[MaxShine]

tyhw wrote...

MaxShine wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Maxshine misunderstands the bug regarding the crusader.

Old school projectile weapon:
Press fire
Signal is sent to host / server
Gun fires
Projectile paths
Projectile then hits anything which it passes through


The crusader, is a different kettle of fish.

Press Fire
Shot fires instantly
Shot does not fire where your crosshair is indicating

Doesn't the Crusader work like this?:

point crosshair at some location
shoot
after the fire delay the shot hits exactely where I pointed to when I pulled the trigger

No

Watch the vid, read the post

read the post, understood what is going on and that it is different from what I originally thought. Still the video shows how not to use the gun.
The title of your thread  "Punishing good aim and rewarding bad since 2012" is a bit strange. Hitting a target that moves sideways with the Crusader is more difficult than hitting that target with a Black Widow.
The timing for hitting a Phantom after she does her cartwheel it also different and awkward. It is not neccessarily correct to call this 'bad aim'. Rewarding bad aim? So we give the Crusader to an inexperienced player (sometimes called NOOB) and he will play godly?

Modifié par MaxShine, 26 mai 2013 - 12:14 .

[Tybo]

MP-Ryan wrote...

Sounds like BioWare was trying to replicate slug travel over distance on a hitscan weapon. If you think of it that way, it actually makes a lot of sense.

Where it doesn't make sense is because we already have projectile weapons, which do this perfectly. I suspect the problem is they couldn't easily add the armour-piercing capabilities of the Crusader to a projectile weapon, so we ended up with his hybrid instead.

Basically, there's a steadying penalty where you have to remain on a target to hit it. THAT said, 0.2 seconds is a whopping 20 milliseconds. While hitscan weapons typically give instantaneous results, this weapon does not - but that doesn't mean you can't compensate for it (and anyone who thinks they're being impeded in their overall aim by a 20 millisecond delay has a really skewed idea of human reaction times). Does it prevent smooth, continuous movement from target to target? Sure.... but when you do that with a hitscan weapon, you're not really aiming intentionally, you're tracking a target path that you figure the targets will remain on as you aim over them.

In short: lead or hold on your targets. Yes, it's irritating if you are used to normal hitscan mechanics, but if you treat it like a projectile weapon you'll be fine.

I actually quite like my Crusader X on some classes.

First of all, .2 seconds is actually 200 ms, not 20 ms.  

That is a huge amount of time.  You are definitely impeded by this.  You can't treat this like a projectile weapon at all.  It's more like using a projectile weapon with 200 ms lag.

Also, you can't even properly lead targets with the Crusader.  Instead, you have to move your cursor ahead of where the enemy will be, then wait for it to move, then fire.  You can't swing to the point you want to shoot at, fire, and be done with it.

Did you even watch the vid?  It clearly shows perfect aim with the crusader leading to a miss

Modifié par tyhw, 26 mai 2013 - 12:30 .

[MaxShine]

Air Quotes wrote...

MaxShine wrote...

Without the delay it would be overpowered... Sniper rifle range, great ROF, innate piercing. Playing with it is like classic online FPS gaming was in Q3A or UT, you have some lag on your shot... So what? Consider yourself happy to get a taste of these classics

 

Well If they have fixed it early, then there would be no need for multi-buffs. 

I have actually no idea how the Crusader was before, because I never got it from a commendation pack only after they made it available in PSPs

[Tybo]

MaxShine wrote...

tyhw wrote...

MaxShine wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Maxshine misunderstands the bug regarding the crusader.

Old school projectile weapon:
Press fire
Signal is sent to host / server
Gun fires
Projectile paths
Projectile then hits anything which it passes through


The crusader, is a different kettle of fish.

Press Fire
Shot fires instantly
Shot does not fire where your crosshair is indicating

Doesn't the Crusader work like this?:

point crosshair at some location
shoot
after the fire delay the shot hits exactely where I pointed to when I pulled the trigger

No

Watch the vid, read the post

read the post, understood what is going on and that it is different from what I originally thought. Still the video shows how not to use the gun. The title of your thread  "Punishing good aim and rewarding bad since 2012" is a bit strange. Hitting a target that moves sideways with the Crusader is more difficult than hitting that target with a Black Widow. The timing for hitting a Phantom after she does her cartwheel it also different and awkward. It is not neccessarily correct to call this 'bad aim'. Rewarding bad aim? So we give the Crusader to an inexperienced player (sometimes called NOOB) and he will play godly?

Yes, the point of the video was to show that the Crusader does indeed have a 200 ms delay, not a 20 ms delay as some have erroneously claimed.  It was not to show how the gun is supposed to be used.

The reason I said it rewards bad aim is that when you use the crusader, you will often hit shots when you shoot and your cursor is off target, while good aiming is punished as it will cause you to miss.  Your point does have merit here though.

[stormrider1012]

I actually like the crusader and I run it on a number of kits like the TSol and FQI. However, I am perfectly aware of its retarded unique firing mechanics which is the reason I rarely attempt any strafing shots with it unless my character has a stagger power. While it does force you to aim a lot slower, popping an enemy's head with the crusader from yards away never gets old.

It does feel weird when I switch to another gun (like the saber) after using it though. I'm guessing its because compensating for the "fire-in-the-past" delay is a bit counter-intuitive on how you usually shoot with a hitscan weapon. Like I said before, it seems the better your aim is, the harder it is to adjust to the crusader.

Modifié par stormrider1012, 26 mai 2013 - 12:19 .

[Grun7mas7er]

edit: unintentional post

Modifié par Grun7mas7er, 26 mai 2013 - 12:25 .

[Zjarcal]

Air Quotes wrote...

LOL. It was a super heavy Claymore weight brick that did **** for damage. The Crusader got buffed like 3 times. 10% each or even more.  

Fixing the aim delay would've made people complain less. 

The damage was buffed four times while the weight was also reduced.

Overall the damage was buffed just a bit over 40%.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 26 mai 2013 - 12:42 .