211 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

Air Quotes wrote...

 and it's still not that awesome

I know. 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 26 mai 2013 - 12:31 .

[MaxShine]

tyhw wrote...

Yes, the point of the video was to show that the Crusader does indeed have a 200 ms delay, not a 20 ms delay as some have erroneously claimed.  It was not to show how the gun is supposed to be used.

The reason I said it rewards bad aim is that when you use the crusader, you will often hit shots when you shoot and your cursor is off target, while good aiming is punished as it will cause you to miss.  Your point does have merit here though.

Ah, that was the point of the video... So, in LordSirian language: 'The Crusader has AIDS and several types of cancer' means it has a larger 'delay' than expected. ok... I am cool with that... The main problem with the Crusader though is that the weird firing mechanic needs to be properly explained otherwise there is little chance of using it 'successfully'

[MaxShine]

Air Quotes wrote...

MaxShine wrote...

I have actually no idea how the Crusader was before, because I never got it from a commendation pack only after they made it available in PSPs

 

LOL. It was a super heavy Claymore weight brick that did **** for damage. The Crusader got buffed like 3 times. 10% each or even more.  

Fixing the aim delay would've made people complain less. 

Sounds like people rightfully called it the worst promotional weapon back then...

[Chealec]

MasterReefa wrote...

Chealec wrote...

MasterReefa wrote...

I've said it before and i'll say it again.
Crusader > Claymore
L2P pc scrubs

OK - I'll bite, learn to aim console scrubs ... oh, you can't, analogue sticks - sorry, I feel for you, I really do; it must suck to be forced to use such a retrograde, Micky Mouse control system

I'm not the one who can't use the Crusader.

I can use it ... I do on the vanilla HSol and on the Destroyer as a secondary.... BUT I have to try NOT to aim it. If I'm playing like a drunken console peasant, I'm good... being able to accurately aim actually hurts your ability to use the Crusader (unless you're reflexes are about 200ms slow I guess - maybe I'll be great with it in 20 years time).

[UnknownMercenary]

MaxShine wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

MaxShine wrote...

I have actually no idea how the Crusader was before, because I never got it from a commendation pack only after they made it available in PSPs

 

LOL. It was a super heavy Claymore weight brick that did **** for damage. The Crusader got buffed like 3 times. 10% each or even more.  

Fixing the aim delay would've made people complain less. 

Sounds like people rightfully called it the worst promotional weapon back then...

no the Eagle was a lot worse back then

[JulianRmz]

The delay demands predictable trajectory shots.

Crusader, the finest veterans gun.

[Shinobu]

I'm bad at aiming, so this gun works great for me!

[Original Twigman]

tyhw wrote...

MaxShine wrote...

tyhw wrote...

MaxShine wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Maxshine misunderstands the bug regarding the crusader.

Old school projectile weapon:
Press fire
Signal is sent to host / server
Gun fires
Projectile paths
Projectile then hits anything which it passes through


The crusader, is a different kettle of fish.

Press Fire
Shot fires instantly
Shot does not fire where your crosshair is indicating

Doesn't the Crusader work like this?:

point crosshair at some location
shoot
after the fire delay the shot hits exactely where I pointed to when I pulled the trigger

No

Watch the vid, read the post

read the post, understood what is going on and that it is different from what I originally thought. Still the video shows how not to use the gun. The title of your thread  "Punishing good aim and rewarding bad since 2012" is a bit strange. Hitting a target that moves sideways with the Crusader is more difficult than hitting that target with a Black Widow. The timing for hitting a Phantom after she does her cartwheel it also different and awkward. It is not neccessarily correct to call this 'bad aim'. Rewarding bad aim? So we give the Crusader to an inexperienced player (sometimes called NOOB) and he will play godly?

Yes, the point of the video was to show that the Crusader does indeed have a 200 ms delay, not a 20 ms delay as some have erroneously claimed.  It was not to show how the gun is supposed to be used.

The reason I said it rewards bad aim is that when you use the crusader, you will often hit shots when you shoot and your cursor is off target, while good aiming is punished as it will cause you to miss.  Your point does have merit here though.

Shouldn't you actually show us the 12 frames?

No one here is going to be able to distinguish the difference, by watching your video, of .2 and .02, or 6 frames and 12 frames.

You could be claiming that its 12 frames, but pretty much we are taking you for your word on this one

red herring: why are you twitch-shotting a precision gun? The AI is not intelligent, and many players claim this game isn't difficult as how easy it is to manipulate the enemies... so why do you insist on forcing this gun to do something it clearly isn't capable of doing? Why not take advantage of how easy this game is and actually use the gun in a way that benefits it?

[Leonia]

When you're used to playing with lag because you live in a country so far away from everyone else, this is hardly an issue. I learned a long time ago to aim for where I think something is going to be than right at it. This is probably good practice for most games with guns because targets rarely stay stationary. The Crusader isn't like other guns, for sure, but it hardly teaches bad habits. If you can get headshots with this gun, then you can definitely get headshots with any other gun. If you're not aiming for the head (or predicting where it will be), you're sniping is all sorts of wrong.

[DullahansXMark]

Chealec wrote...

MasterReefa wrote...

I've said it before and i'll say it again.
Crusader > Claymore
L2P pc scrubs

OK - I'll bite, learn to aim console scrubs ... oh, you can't, analogue sticks - sorry, I feel for you, I really do; it must suck to be forced to use such a retrograde, Micky Mouse control system

The moment you can fully enjoy Devil May Cry 3 on a PC (WITHOUT a "retrograde Mickey Mouse control system" gamepad) is the day I'll openly admit that PC gaming is better in every way.

Until then, you lose, because DMC3 is a kickass game 

[MP-Ryan]

tyhw wrote...
First of all, .2 seconds is actually 200 ms, not 20 ms.  

That is a huge amount of time.  You are definitely impeded by this.  You can't treat this like a projectile weapon at all.  It's more like using a projectile weapon with 200 ms lag.

Also, you can't even properly lead targets with the Crusader.  Instead, you have to move your cursor ahead of where the enemy will be, then wait for it to move, then fire.  You can't swing to the point you want to shoot at, fire, and be done with it.

Did you even watch the vid?  It clearly shows perfect aim with the crusader leading to a miss

Actually, you can treat it like a projectile weapon.  What you CANNOT do is treat it like a regular hitscan weapon, which is why so many people have such trouble with it.  Conceptually, I actually like this weapon because it is the closest of any ME3 gun to replicate the way a real firearm functions.

I saw your perfect aim - your perfect aim assumes it functions like all hitscan weapons in that a trigger press will always hit precisely where your cursor is at that moment in time.  Becuase it does not - it replicates travel time of a slug to target - you missed.

Lead your target, pause your mouse movement (and yes, you're right, I missed a zero, it's 200 ms), and you'll find you don't miss.  The weapon functions differently from the others - that does not make it bad, it just means you have to compensate for it.

That, or stick with the reload-cancelling Claymore if you must have precision hitscan.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 26 mai 2013 - 04:21 .

[Tybo]

MP-Ryan wrote...

tyhw wrote...
First of all, .2 seconds is actually 200 ms, not 20 ms.  

That is a huge amount of time.  You are definitely impeded by this.  You can't treat this like a projectile weapon at all.  It's more like using a projectile weapon with 200 ms lag.

Also, you can't even properly lead targets with the Crusader.  Instead, you have to move your cursor ahead of where the enemy will be, then wait for it to move, then fire.  You can't swing to the point you want to shoot at, fire, and be done with it.

Did you even watch the vid?  It clearly shows perfect aim with the crusader leading to a miss

Actually, you can treat it like a projectile weapon.  What you CANNOT do is treat it like a regular hitscan weapon, which is why so many people have such trouble with it.

I saw your perfect aim - your perfect aim assumes it functions like all hitscan weapons in that a trigger press will always hit precisely where your cursor is at that moment in time.  Becuase it does not - it replicates travel time of a slug to target - you missed.

Lead your target, pause your mouse movement (and yes, you're right, I missed a zero, it's 200 ms), and you'll find you don't miss.  The weapon functions differently from the others - that does not make it bad, it just means you have to compensate for it.

That, or stick with the reload-cancelling Claymore if you must have precision hitscan.

It does not replicate travel time at all.  Travel time would have the projectile hit, where you are pointing, after a slight delay.  The crusader hits, when you pull the trigger, at where you were aiming 200 ms ago.

I'd be fine with the projectile hitting where you aim after a slight delay.  I'm not ok with the gun shooting somewhere else entirely.

If I were to replicate this and continue tracking until my cursor was ahead of the target, I'd still miss.  It forces you to use bad aiming technique:  holding your cursor where you want to shoot and waiting for the target to reach that place. 

For a very clear example, lets say I'm shooting something to the right, and the enemy is on the left moving right.  Now, I swing my cursor left towards the enemy.

If it's a projectile weapon, and I pull the trigger at the appropriate place for the 2 to meet, I will hit it.  With the crusader, I have to stop moving my cursor and wait until the enemy reaches the cursor to have a chance to hit it.

Get it?

Modifié par tyhw, 26 mai 2013 - 04:25 .

[megabeast37215]

Original Twigman wrote...

tyhw wrote...

MaxShine wrote...

tyhw wrote...

MaxShine wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Maxshine misunderstands the bug regarding the crusader.

Old school projectile weapon:
Press fire
Signal is sent to host / server
Gun fires
Projectile paths
Projectile then hits anything which it passes through


The crusader, is a different kettle of fish.

Press Fire
Shot fires instantly
Shot does not fire where your crosshair is indicating

Doesn't the Crusader work like this?:

point crosshair at some location
shoot
after the fire delay the shot hits exactely where I pointed to when I pulled the trigger

No

Watch the vid, read the post

read the post, understood what is going on and that it is different from what I originally thought. Still the video shows how not to use the gun. The title of your thread  "Punishing good aim and rewarding bad since 2012" is a bit strange. Hitting a target that moves sideways with the Crusader is more difficult than hitting that target with a Black Widow. The timing for hitting a Phantom after she does her cartwheel it also different and awkward. It is not neccessarily correct to call this 'bad aim'. Rewarding bad aim? So we give the Crusader to an inexperienced player (sometimes called NOOB) and he will play godly?

Yes, the point of the video was to show that the Crusader does indeed have a 200 ms delay, not a 20 ms delay as some have erroneously claimed.  It was not to show how the gun is supposed to be used.

The reason I said it rewards bad aim is that when you use the crusader, you will often hit shots when you shoot and your cursor is off target, while good aiming is punished as it will cause you to miss.  Your point does have merit here though.

Shouldn't you actually show us the 12 frames?

No one here is going to be able to distinguish the difference, by watching your video, of .2 and .02, or 6 frames and 12 frames.

You could be claiming that its 12 frames, but pretty much we are taking you for your word on this one

red herring: why are you twitch-shotting a precision gun? The AI is not intelligent, and many players claim this game isn't difficult as how easy it is to manipulate the enemies... so why do you insist on forcing this gun to do something it clearly isn't capable of doing? Why not take advantage of how easy this game is and actually use the gun in a way that benefits it?

Sick 'em Stik...

[Tybo]

megabeast37215 wrote...


Sick 'em Stik...

lol

Yes, I'm just lying to you guys for fun.  Just like I always do.  

(Also, fyi, .02 seconds is far from 6 frames...  l2math, console scrubs)

Modifié par tyhw, 26 mai 2013 - 04:31 .

[Zjarcal]

tyhw wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...


Sick 'em Stik...

lol

Yes, I'm just lying to you guys for fun.  Just like I always do.  

(Also, fyi, .02 seconds is far from 6 frames...  l2math, console scrubs)

Obviously you're a liar ty, and obviously sirian is a scrub who needs to l2p, and obviously all PC players are dirty cheatin scum.

Obviously. 

[MP-Ryan]

tyhw wrote...

It does not replicate travel time at all.  Travel time would have the projectile hit, where you are pointing, after a slight delay.  The crusader hits, when you pull the trigger, at where you were aiming 200 ms ago.

I'd be fine with the projectile hitting where you aim after a slight delay.  I'm not ok with the gun shooting somewhere else entirely.

If I were to replicate this and continue tracking until my cursor was ahead of the target, I'd still miss.  It forces you to use bad aiming technique:  holding your cursor where you want to shoot and waiting for the target to reach that place. 

For a very clear example, lets say I'm shooting something to the right, and the enemy is on the left moving right.  Now, I swing my cursor left towards the enemy.

If it's a projectile weapon, and I pull the trigger at the appropriate place for the 2 to meet, I will hit it.  With the crusader, I have to stop moving my cursor and wait until the enemy reaches the cursor to have a chance to hit it.

Get it?

You're now contradicting yourself.

The crusader hits where your crosshairs were pointed 200 ms prior to pulling the trigger.  The impact occurs at the moment you pull the trigger.  Therefore, you can lead targets.  Place the crosshair in steady position ahead of the target as it moves.  Pull the trigger at the exact moment the target crosses your crosshairs.  You will hit the target.

The crusader mimics travel time on a moving barrel by causing the impact to occur at a location where your weapon was aimed prior to your trigger pull.  It's a poor man's way of implementing travel time, but it's a limitation of the way hitscan weapons function in ME3.  With a projectile weapon, you have to aim where your target is going to be.  The same applies to the Crusader - with the added complication that you require steady aim at that location (or you have to predict the hitpoint, which isn't hard either).

I don't know why you're complaining.  The crusader functions admirably if you use it in a way that adapts to its unique styl - basically, you must pause at your intended target location for a split second.  This is not difficult to do, nor is it "rewarding bad aiming."  If anything, traditional hitscan weapons behave in a completely unrealistic fashion, which is why you're having such trouble with this.  Traditional hitscan weapons reward twitch-aiming and smoothed mouse movement; the Crusader rewards discrete aimpoints.  If anything, it is more difficult to aim with the Crusader because it prevents PC players in particular from utilizing their previously-learned smooth mouse movements to aim and forces them to pause movement to score hits.  It's a different skill entirely.

Ever shoot clay pigeons or moving targets in real life?  Same concept - you have to steady your aimpoint in the path of the target travel before you fire.  Granted, the Crusader functions slightly differenlt due to limitations of the game but the concept is not all that different from a real shotgun or rifle (which experts will never fire while moving, but instead execute split-second pauses in their aiming sweeps to steady the flight path of the bullets/pellets), just executed using some coding trickery.

TL;DR - quit treating the Crusader like a traditional hitscan weapon which can be twitch-fired.  It isn't.  Adapt, or don't use it.  I also play on PC, also at 60 frames per second, and I have no difficulty with this weapon - mainly because I do not use it the same way I'd use a Claymore, Wraith, Talon, etc.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 26 mai 2013 - 04:46 .

[Tybo]

MP-Ryan wrote...

tyhw wrote...

It does not replicate travel time at all.  Travel time would have the projectile hit, where you are pointing, after a slight delay.  The crusader hits, when you pull the trigger, at where you were aiming 200 ms ago.

I'd be fine with the projectile hitting where you aim after a slight delay.  I'm not ok with the gun shooting somewhere else entirely.

If I were to replicate this and continue tracking until my cursor was ahead of the target, I'd still miss.  It forces you to use bad aiming technique:  holding your cursor where you want to shoot and waiting for the target to reach that place. 

For a very clear example, lets say I'm shooting something to the right, and the enemy is on the left moving right.  Now, I swing my cursor left towards the enemy.

If it's a projectile weapon, and I pull the trigger at the appropriate place for the 2 to meet, I will hit it.  With the crusader, I have to stop moving my cursor and wait until the enemy reaches the cursor to have a chance to hit it.

Get it?

You're now contradicting yourself.

The crusader hits where your crosshairs were pointed 200 ms prior to pulling the trigger.  The impact occurs at the moment you pull the trigger.  Therefore, you can lead targets.  Place the crosshair in steady position ahead of the target as it moves.  Pull the trigger at the exact moment the target crosses your crosshairs.  You will hit the target.

The crusader mimics travel time on a moving barrel by causing the impact to occur at a location where your weapon was aimed prior to your trigger pull.  It's a poor man's way of implementing travel time, but it's a limitation of the way hitscan weapons function in ME3.  With a projectile weapon, you have to aim where your target is going to be.  The same applies to the Crusader - with the added complication that you require steady aim at that location (or you have to predict the hitpoint, which isn't hard either).

I don't know why you're complaining.  The crusader functions admirably if you use it in a way that adapts to its unique styl - basically, you must pause at your intended target location for a split second.  This is not difficult to do, nor is it "rewarding bad aiming."  If anything, traditional hitscan weapons behave in a completely unrealistic fashion, which is why you're having such trouble with this.

Ever shoot clay pigeons or moving targets in real life?  Same concept - you have to steady your aimpoint in the path of the target travel before you fire.  Granted, the Crusader functions slightly differenlt due to limitations of the game but the concept is not all that different from a real shotgun, just executed using some coding trickery.

TL;DR - quit treating the Crusader like a traditional hitscan weapon which can be twitch-fired.  It isn't.  Adapt, or don't use it.  I also play on PC, also at 60 frames per second, and I have no difficulty with this weapon - mainly because I do not use it the same way I'd use a Claymore, Wraith, Talon, etc.

First off, I in no way contradicted myself.  Read everything again, I'm tired of repeating myself.

And yes, I have gone skeet shooting before.  And that is the opposite of what I was taught.  I was taught to see the target, follow it and pull when the "picture" looked right.


Once again, it is nothing like projectile delay.  Read my posts again, maybe you'll understand if you try hard enough.

Also, it's not about being unable to use it.  It's about the retardness of the design decision, and proving that the gun shoots where your cursor was .2 seconds ago, not .02 seconds ago.

Modifié par tyhw, 26 mai 2013 - 04:46 .

[BattleCop88]

MaxShine wrote...

Without the delay it would be overpowered... Sniper rifle range, great ROF, innate piercing. Playing with it is like classic online FPS gaming was in Q3A or UT, you have some lag on your shot... So what? Consider yourself happy to get a taste of these classics

The Crusader is the fat kid of ME3 weapons.

[Nova-IN]

Stay classy, console peasants.

[Leonia]

It's not a "retarded design decision" if you actually use the weapon properly. I wish there were more guns like that Crusader, the game could do with more "skill-based" weapons as opposed to easy mode hitscans. MP-Ryan is right on the money, it's supposed to mimic a real gun (as best as it can within the current limitations). You don't have to like it, some of us do quite well with this gun regardless of how long the delay is. So clearly some people get it and some people don't.

Modifié par leonia42, 26 mai 2013 - 04:57 .

[MP-Ryan]

You can quit the snark anytime.

You said:

The crusader hits, when you pull the trigger, at where you were aiming 200 ms ago.

I'd be fine with the projectile hitting where you aim after a slight delay. I'm not ok with the gun shooting somewhere else entirely.

Which is true. It hits precisely where you aim, provided you delay where you aim.

If I were to replicate this and continue tracking until my cursor was ahead of the target, I'd still miss.

False. If you pause your crosshairs ahead of the target and fire when it arrives at them, you will hit. And yes, this quote contradicts the one before it. or you're not writing what you intend to say. Either way, the above statement is incorrect - unless you aren't pausing but continuing to move your mouse, in which case you need to compensate for the additional movement.

And yes, I have gone skeet shooting before. And that is the opposite of what I was taught. I was taught to see the target, follow it and pull when the "picture" looked right.

And when the picture looks right, your shotgun barrel is in a fixed location, not still moving. At least, it had better not be still moving. If it is, I'm frightened. An expert with a real firearm uses fractional pauses during smooth movement to steady their aim and hit precise locations... which is exactly what you need to do to use the Crusader.  (Incidentally, even those people like myself who do not aim at a flight path before shouting "pull" but instead leave their firearm pointed at the ground do pause as they track the pigeon in flight, ahead of its point of travel).

With a projectile weapon, you can keep moving your cursor but the round will always impact in the past - e.g. it impacts the location where your crosshair was when you fired. The Crusader builds that travel time into the firing of the gun, meaning your crosshair must be either ahead of the target when you fire during movement, or paused on the point where you want the round to impact. Both methods work.

But again, I don't know why you're grousing about it. If you find this too difficult, use a different weapon. The Crusader's mechanism is no worse than any other weapon, it just functions differently and you need to adapt for it.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 26 mai 2013 - 04:57 .

[Original Twigman]

tyhw wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...


Sick 'em Stik...

lol

Yes, I'm just lying to you guys for fun.  Just like I always do.  

(Also, fyi, .02 seconds is far from 6 frames...  l2math, console scrubs)

10% of 12 frames, wtv. nitpicking (despite 6 frames actually being .2 seconds for 30 fps, which is what you have stated xbox plays at), then adding Defensive Ad Hominems. I would find your egotistical remarks funny and humorous if you were joking around, but i have a feeling you are not.

Continuing, if you want to showcase proof, you should provide it, not just say it is because "you wouldn't lie"

The issue is that you are clearly showing and voicing a bias with thenegative words you choose to describe the crusader, which demonstrates a motive, whether myself or anyone here, believes you or not.

Show us the frames and quit being a pu**y

Modifié par Original Twigman, 26 mai 2013 - 05:23 .

[megabeast37215]

tyhw wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...


Sick 'em Stik...

lol

Yes, I'm just lying to you guys for fun.  Just like I always do.  

(Also, fyi, .02 seconds is far from 6 frames...  l2math, console scrubs)

No... I don't think you're lying... I just think that the aim delay is not that big of a deal, it is easy to overcome and that it is worth overcoming because the weapon does insane damage. You PC folks are so anal about weapons... You guys hate the Crusader, and the Venom, and the GPS, etc etc. etc. Your inability to accept small issues kills variety... It's silly IMO.

[Tybo]

MP-Ryan wrote...

If I were to replicate this and continue tracking until my cursor was ahead of the target, I'd still miss.

False. If you pause your crosshairs ahead of the target and fire when it arrives at them, you will hit. And yes, this quote contradicts the one before it. or you're not writing what you intend to say. Either way, the above statement is incorrect - unless you aren't pausing but continuing to move your mouse, in which case you need to compensate for the additional movement.

You aren't understanding.  I don't stop my cursor when I shoot.  If my cursor keeps moving, this is false.  I can lead the target to any distance I want, but it doesn't matter how far my cursor has actually moved, but how long ago it was on the right spot.  On the crusader, what matters isn't where you actually shoot, but where you were aiming .2 seconds ago.  Very different things.

MP-Ryan wrote...

And yes, I have gone skeet shooting before. And that is the opposite of what I was taught. I was taught to see the target, follow it and pull when the "picture" looked right.

And when the picture looks right, your shotgun barrel is in a fixed location, not still moving. At least, it had better not be still moving. If it is, I'm frightened. An expert with a real firearm uses fractional pauses during smooth movement to steady their aim and hit precise locations... which is exactly what you need to do to use the Crusader.  (Incidentally, even those people like myself who do not aim at a flight path before shouting "pull" but instead leave their firearm pointed at the ground do pause as they track the pigeon in flight, ahead of its point of travel).

Interesting.  Since we're doing the whole qualifications thing...I was taught to do it by a state champion skeet shooter, and was told to continue following the target and not to stop at the shot.  

[Tybo]

leonia42 wrote...

It's not a "retarded design decision" if you actually use the weapon properly. I wish there were more guns like that Crusader, the game could do with more "skill-based" weapons as opposed to easy mode hitscans. MP-Ryan is right on the money, it's supposed to mimic a real gun (as best as it can within the current limitations). You don't have to like it, some of us do quite well with this gun regardless of how long the delay is. So clearly some people get it and some people don't.

Those are in the game.  They are called projectile weapons.