211 réponses à ce sujet

[MaxShine]

tyhw wrote...

@MaxShine:

Interesting video evidence. We are now documenting our frame by frame analysis, and I am curious as to why we're getting different results. If it was .02 seconds, the bullet in our vid would have hit the trooper in the shoulder, but it missed by a foot.

One thing I'm curious of is what software you used to go through it frame by frame. Also, did you render the video before looking at it, or is it the raw video?

I was looking at the raw video with Sony Vegas. For me it is consistently one video frame (30fps) before I pull the trigger. It looks like it is more in your video...

Modifié par MaxShine, 26 mai 2013 - 11:48 .

[MaxShine]

Original Twigman wrote...

MotherF******* awesome

Glad you liked it... It took some time to do it

[UnknownMercenary]

your video doesn't work

the link is broken, and you have it set to private

make it unlisted instead of private so more than a handful of people can see it

[MaxShine]

UnknownMercenary wrote...

your video doesn't work

the link is broken, and you have it set to private

make it unlisted instead of private so more than a handful of people can see it

updated the link:



Is it ok now?

[UnknownMercenary]

works now

also that is goddamn weird

[N7NJA982]

MaxShine wrote...

UnknownMercenary wrote...

your video doesn't work

the link is broken, and you have it set to private

make it unlisted instead of private so more than a handful of people can see it

updated the link:



Is it ok now?

Does this remind anyone of the movie Wanted?

[Taritu]

This explains much. I don't usually use it, but people were talking about how great it was so I took it out for a spin and had an absolutely horrible time.

[OniGanon]

Yeah I'm reminded of Wanted too.

MaxShine, you should make a montage of this stuff and call it The Most Weirdass Trickshot Vid Evar.


But yeah, the Crusader doesn't punish good aim and reward bad aim. Aim has little to do with it.

It punishes twitch reflexes and realtime target tracking, and rewards prediction and planning.

Alternatively, it rewards the ability to fire the moment you see a red crosshair, regardless of where the hell your gun may be pointing.

You can actually track a moving target, but the gun has to be pointed ahead of them rather than on them, moving at a certain distance and speed such that the cursor is 0.2s ahead of them at all times. It would make for a hell of an addition to the aforementioned Weirdass Trickshot Vid, but seems like it would be a total PITA to do.

I understand that players with a lot of experience in more twitchy PvP FPSers could have difficulty with the gun, as it runs counter to what they are so accustomed to doing.

But it does not punish skill. It punishes certain habits and demands different ones. Saying it punishes skill or punishes aim is a bit like saying a cricket bat punishes baseball players.

[Sir_Alan_]

I always thought there was something off about the weapon, used to think it was lag until I used it on host.

Guess I know what it is now, cheers for the heads up.

[Zero132132]

It doesn't reward bad aim. If it did, I would love this weapon.

[Nova-IN]

MaxShine wrote...

UnknownMercenary wrote...

your video doesn't work

the link is broken, and you have it set to private

make it unlisted instead of private so more than a handful of people can see it

updated the link:



Is it ok now?

dafuq
so to hit the enemy i shouldn't be aiming at the enemy..
seems legit.

[Original Twigman]

Midnight98 wrote...

MaxShine wrote...

UnknownMercenary wrote...

your video doesn't work

the link is broken, and you have it set to private

make it unlisted instead of private so more than a handful of people can see it

updated the link:



Is it ok now?

dafuq
so to hit the enemy i shouldn't be aiming at the enemy..
seems legit.

no.... think of it as an acolyte from a distance. If you shoot at the target, the acolyte will miss as the target will move during the travel time. Only difference is that its not a travel time issue, its a delay in the shot, which is .02 seconds, according to Max, so you just have to either twitch a little ahead in time, or be more precise with your shots

[Nova-IN]

Original Twigman wrote...

Midnight98 wrote...

MaxShine wrote...

UnknownMercenary wrote...

your video doesn't work

the link is broken, and you have it set to private

make it unlisted instead of private so more than a handful of people can see it

updated the link:



Is it ok now?

dafuq
so to hit the enemy i shouldn't be aiming at the enemy..
seems legit.

no.... think of it as an acolyte from a distance. If you shoot at the target, the acolyte will miss as the target will move during the travel time. Only difference is that its not a travel time issue, its a delay in the shot, which is .02 seconds, according to Max, so you just have to either twitch a little ahead in time, or be more precise with your shots

Acolyte has AOE and can bounce off walls so it doesn't matter if i miss. Crusader requires me to either use stagger powers or stop for a second to shoot one enemy unit.

[Tybo]

 So going over the frame by frame analysis again, we found there to be a significant difference between 60 and 30 fps.

At 60 fps, we have this:  

http://asecretsnotas....imgur.com/all/

Go to the album, click on the first image (bottom) and flip through the images to see the frame by frame analysis.

By our reckoning, the bullet hits where the cursor was approximately 6-7 frames before firing.  Flip through the pictures to see what you think.  

This delay was actually inconsistent.  On other shots, we found the delay to be between 6-12 frames (between 100 and 200 ms)  These are not all documented, as Lord_Sirian is not willing to take hundreds of screenshots.

At 30 fps, we have this: 

Frame 1

Frame 2

Frame 3


Frame 1 is 2 frames before the trigger pull, frame 2 is the trigger pull frame, and frame 3 is where the bullet actually hits.

The delay in these tests ranged for 1-2 frames, or 33.333 to 66.666 ms.  This is consistent with MaxShine's test.

In conclusion, the Crusader aim delay is highly dependent on frame rate, and inconsistent.  It is significantly worse at 60 fps.  It ranges from 100 to 200 ms at 60 fps, and between 33.333 and 66.666 ms at 30 fps.

I'm also updating the OP with these new findings as well as MaxShine's tests

Modifié par tyhw, 27 mai 2013 - 10:25 .

[me0120]

I so called that.

[Zjarcal]

This explains the different experiences of console and PC players.

I'm also gonna guess Chris Schande (the bioware dev) probably tested it at 30 fps when he mentioned the time being 0.02s.

Great work ty and Sirian, at least this clears up something that's been bugging the community for a while.

And I still don't like the Crusader. 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 27 mai 2013 - 11:00 .

[ASmoothCriminalx]

in my experience the wraith and claymore have a delay before all pellets hit. especially the claymore.

[megabeast37215]

OniGanon wrote...

Yeah I'm reminded of Wanted too.

MaxShine, you should make a montage of this stuff and call it The Most Weirdass Trickshot Vid Evar.


But yeah, the Crusader doesn't punish good aim and reward bad aim. Aim has little to do with it.

It punishes twitch reflexes and realtime target tracking, and rewards prediction and planning.

Alternatively, it rewards the ability to fire the moment you see a red crosshair, regardless of where the hell your gun may be pointing.

You can actually track a moving target, but the gun has to be pointed ahead of them rather than on them, moving at a certain distance and speed such that the cursor is 0.2s ahead of them at all times. It would make for a hell of an addition to the aforementioned Weirdass Trickshot Vid, but seems like it would be a total PITA to do.

I understand that players with a lot of experience in more twitchy PvP FPSers could have difficulty with the gun, as it runs counter to what they are so accustomed to doing.

But it does not punish skill. It punishes certain habits and demands different ones. Saying it punishes skill or punishes aim is a bit like saying a cricket bat punishes baseball players.

That's a good way to say it.

[Miniditka77]

I only use the Crusader on the FQI because Sabotage makes aiming a lot easier.  And I do really like it on that setup.  But I don't ever plan on using it on another setup, because I don't get the chance to play this game long or often enough to waste my time learning to use a single weapon.  Maybe if its potential was higher, it would be different - but even at the top of its potential, there are still better weapons out there.

[LegionofRannoch]

Uh Cold wrote...

Ya can make it work with the delay,
Making it Work.

I need to give my quarian marksman an adrenaline mod.

[UnknownMercenary]

so what you're saying is I should force the game to run at 30 then

[jakenou]

I remembered liking the Crusader when I first got it - mainly using it on SI, so lots of stagger probably masked the time warp a bit. Since all this Crusader talk has stirred up lately, I decided to take it for a spin (on lolecksbux) with my QFE. It did... ok. All the data mentioned here seems to make sense, even on console fps - stuff I aimed at generally didn't hit, and stuff I thought I missed usually got hit. Moral of the story - Don't aim and hope for the best??

Modifié par jkthunder, 27 mai 2013 - 11:38 .

[phunkeybuddha]

MaxShine wrote...

UnknownMercenary wrote...

your video doesn't work

the link is broken, and you have it set to private

make it unlisted instead of private so more than a handful of people can see it

updated the link:



Is it ok now?

Just an fyi, all you need is:



anything after that is unnecessary*

*unless you're using a time-stamp to jump to a specific point in the vid

[suthelly]

So if somebody caps their frame rate in MP, does that effect anything for the other players, or just make the crusader more instinctive to use?