211 réponses à ce sujet

[jakenou]

suthelly wrote...

So if somebody caps their frame rate in MP, does that effect anything for the other players, or just make the crusader more instinctive to use?

It will slow down the AI for everyone playing with that host, yes.

[BridgeBurner]

OniGanon wrote...

It punishes twitch reflexes and realtime target tracking, and rewards prediction and planning.
.

No, it really doesn't. It rewards sheer luck or abuse of stagger powers and nothing else.

Prediction would imply that you're anticipating where a projectile or enemy is going to be, in this case it's just blind luck. I doubt there's any human who has the ability to mentally guage the precise point that their crosshair needs to be at 200ms from when they pull the trigger, so that the aim delay shoots the bullet 200ms back in "time".

As an unreal tournament player of some 10+ years, I can safely say there is no precition involved in aiming with the crusader, merely blind luck. I don't think any player possesses the capacity to be able to gauge the exact point their crosshair was 0.2 seconds ago before firing, even entertaining the thought that people should simply "learn to adapt" to something as fickle and unpredictable and down right counter-intuitve as a 200ms back-date on each shot your hit scan weapon fires is preposterous.

Guaging delay with projectile weapons and anticipating is perfectly possible, as you have visual queues and physics to mentally learn and map time frames and trajectories. A hit scan weapons lacks visual queues and physics and therefore can only be predicted using one thing... the crosshair. Too bad the crusader demands you mentally attune yourself to be able to keep a perfect mental record of your crosshair's position precisely 0.2 seconds ago.

AI intelligence, distorted aiming on the crusader, shield regeneration rates... I think we can go ahead and call bioware's use of the unreal engine 3 a categorical failure in terms of mechanics. Bioware should really have spent more time on optimization; instead of merely changing the default control type from xbox controller to keyboard+mouse, changing the options menu and upping the max smoothed frame rate from 30 to 60, slapping it in a box and calling it a PC port.

Modifié par Annomander, 27 mai 2013 - 11:59 .

[suthelly]

jkthunder wrote...

suthelly wrote...

So if somebody caps their frame rate in MP, does that effect anything for the other players, or just make the crusader more instinctive to use?

It will slow down the AI for everyone playing with that host, yes.

Oh?  Lone Wolf, here I come.

What about off host?

Seriously though.  AI is tied to frame rate?

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Annomander wrote...

OniGanon wrote...

It punishes twitch reflexes and realtime target tracking, and rewards prediction and planning.
.

No, it really doesn't. It rewards sheer luck or abuse of stagger powers and nothing else.

Prediction would imply that you're anticipating where a projectile or enemy is going to be, in this case it's just blind luck. I doubt there's any human who has the ability to mentally guage the precise point that their crosshair needs to be at 200ms from when they pull the trigger, so that the aim delay shoots the bullet 200ms back in "time".

As an unreal tournament player of some 10+ years, I can safely say there is no precition involved in aiming with the crusader, merely blind luck. I don't think any player possesses the capacity to be able to gauge the exact point their crosshair was 0.2 seconds ago before firing, even entertaining the thought that people should simply "learn to adapt" to something as fickle and unpredictable and down right counter-intuitve as a 200ms back-date on each shot your hit scan weapon fires is preposterous.

Guaging delay with projectile weapons and anticipating is perfectly possible, as you have visual queues and physics to mentally learn and map time frames and trajectories. A hit scan weapons lacks visual queues and physics and therefore can only be predicted using one thing... the crosshair. Too bad the crusader demands you mentally attune yourself to be able to keep a perfect mental record of your crosshair's position precisely 0.2 seconds ago.

AI intelligence, distorted aiming on the crusader, shield regeneration rates... I think we can go ahead and call bioware's use of the unreal engine 3 a categorical failure in terms of mechanics. Bioware should really have spent more time on optimization; instead of merely changing the default control type from xbox controller to keyboard+mouse, changing the options menu and upping the max smoothed frame rate from 30 to 60, slapping it in a box and calling it a PC port.

Well said 

[Original Twigman]

tyhw wrote...

 So going over the frame by frame analysis again, we found there to be a significant difference between 60 and 30 fps.

At 60 fps, we have this:  

http://asecretsnotas....imgur.com/all/

Go to the album, click on the first image (bottom) and flip through the images to see the frame by frame analysis.

By our reckoning, the bullet hits where the cursor was approximately 6-7 frames before firing.  Flip through the pictures to see what you think.  

This delay was actually inconsistent.  On other shots, we found the delay to be between 6-12 frames (between 100 and 200 ms)  These are not all documented, as Lord_Sirian is not willing to take hundreds of screenshots.

At 30 fps, we have this: 

Frame 1

Frame 2

Frame 3


Frame 1 is 2 frames before the trigger pull, frame 2 is the trigger pull frame, and frame 3 is where the bullet actually hits.

The delay in these tests ranged for 1-2 frames, or 33.333 to 66.666 ms.  This is consistent with MaxShine's test.

In conclusion, the Crusader aim delay is highly dependent on frame rate, and inconsistent.  It is significantly worse at 60 fps.  It ranges from 100 to 200 ms at 60 fps, and between 33.333 and 66.666 ms at 30 fps.

I'm also updating the OP with these new findings as well as MaxShine's tests

i guess this is a long-winded way of saying "i was wrong"

[UnknownMercenary]

Original Twigman wrote...

tyhw wrote...

 So going over the frame by frame analysis again, we found there to be a significant difference between 60 and 30 fps.

At 60 fps, we have this:  

http://asecretsnotas....imgur.com/all/

Go to the album, click on the first image (bottom) and flip through the images to see the frame by frame analysis.

By our reckoning, the bullet hits where the cursor was approximately 6-7 frames before firing.  Flip through the pictures to see what you think.  

This delay was actually inconsistent.  On other shots, we found the delay to be between 6-12 frames (between 100 and 200 ms)  These are not all documented, as Lord_Sirian is not willing to take hundreds of screenshots.

At 30 fps, we have this: 

Frame 1

Frame 2

Frame 3


Frame 1 is 2 frames before the trigger pull, frame 2 is the trigger pull frame, and frame 3 is where the bullet actually hits.

The delay in these tests ranged for 1-2 frames, or 33.333 to 66.666 ms.  This is consistent with MaxShine's test.

In conclusion, the Crusader aim delay is highly dependent on frame rate, and inconsistent.  It is significantly worse at 60 fps.  It ranges from 100 to 200 ms at 60 fps, and between 33.333 and 66.666 ms at 30 fps.

I'm also updating the OP with these new findings as well as MaxShine's tests

i guess this is a long-winded way of saying "bioware learn to code"

[Zjarcal]

Original Twigman wrote...

i guess this is a long-winded way of saying "i was wrong"

More like, no one was wrong.

You experienced something different from what PC gamers who play at 60 fps did, so you were right when saying your experience with the gun wasn't that bad.

However we weren't wrong when saying the behavior wasn't in accordance with the 0.02 second explanation given by Chris Schande, because at 60 fps, it isn't.

[Original Twigman]

Zjarcal wrote...

Original Twigman wrote...

i guess this is a long-winded way of saying "i was wrong"

More like, no one was wrong.

You experienced something different from what PC gamers who play at 60 fps did, so you were right when saying your experience with the gun wasn't that bad.

However we weren't wrong when saying the behavior wasn't in accordance with the 0.02 second explanation given by Chris Schande, because at 60 fps, it isn't.

im just dikin around

[OniGanon]

Annomander wrote...

No, it really doesn't. It rewards sheer luck or abuse of stagger powers and nothing else.

Prediction would imply that you're anticipating where a projectile or enemy is going to be, in this case it's just blind luck. I doubt there's any human who has the ability to mentally guage the precise point that their crosshair needs to be at 200ms from when they pull the trigger, so that the aim delay shoots the bullet 200ms back in "time".

Keeping your gun still for 0.2s (or however long it really is) before firing makes it very, very easy to determine where you shots will go; they will hit exactly where you're aiming.

Therefore all you have to do is put your crosshair where your enemy will be at least 0.2s before they get there, keep your gun still, then fire when the target reaches the crosshair. That's prediction and planning.

I hardly think it's beyond human capability to point your gun slightly ahead of enemies that spend most of their time moving in a single direction at a constant speed. Only very fast and erratic enemies (Husks, Nemeses) should prove a real problem.

And I find it odd that you would say the Crusader rewards abuse of stagger powers, but doesn't reward prediction. What are stagger powers for? For forcing a mostly predictable AI enemy into an even more predictable animation.

[Original Twigman]

OniGanon wrote...

Annomander wrote...

No, it really doesn't. It rewards sheer luck or abuse of stagger powers and nothing else.

Prediction would imply that you're anticipating where a projectile or enemy is going to be, in this case it's just blind luck. I doubt there's any human who has the ability to mentally guage the precise point that their crosshair needs to be at 200ms from when they pull the trigger, so that the aim delay shoots the bullet 200ms back in "time".

Keeping your gun still for 0.2s (or however long it really is) before firing makes it very, very easy to determine where you shots will go; they will hit exactly where you're aiming.

Therefore all you have to do is put your crosshair where your enemy will be at least 0.2s before they get there, keep your gun still, then fire when the target reaches the crosshair. That's prediction and planning.

I hardly think it's beyond human capability to point your gun slightly ahead of enemies that spend most of their time moving in a single direction at a constant speed. Only very fast and erratic enemies (Husks, Nemeses) should prove a real problem.

And I find it odd that you would say the Crusader rewards abuse of stagger powers, but doesn't reward prediction. What are stagger powers for? For forcing a mostly predictable AI enemy into an even more predictable animation.

of course its easy to do, and of course Annomander can do it...

I think its just more about principle of how the mechanics should work, for him

Modifié par Original Twigman, 28 mai 2013 - 03:14 .

[me0120]

Not to mention Maxshine's video completely disproves what Anno said.

[Dunvi]

suthelly wrote...

So if somebody caps their frame rate in MP, does that effect anything for the other players, or just make the crusader more instinctive to use?

Let's put it this way.

When I host on my netbook, at 10fps, you can avoid a dragoon's melee... by walking sideways... as a destoyer with devastator mode active and no adrenaline mods of any sort.

[Original Twigman]

Dunvi wrote...

suthelly wrote...

So if somebody caps their frame rate in MP, does that effect anything for the other players, or just make the crusader more instinctive to use?

Let's put it this way.

When I host on my netbook, at 10fps, you can avoid a dragoon's melee... by walking sideways... as a destoyer with devastator mode active and no adrenaline mods of any sort.

pretty sure you could dodge the above scenario at 30fps as well...

[Dunvi]

Original Twigman wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

suthelly wrote...

So if somebody caps their frame rate in MP, does that effect anything for the other players, or just make the crusader more instinctive to use?

Let's put it this way.

When I host on my netbook, at 10fps, you can avoid a dragoon's melee... by walking sideways... as a destoyer with devastator mode active and no adrenaline mods of any sort.

pretty sure you could dodge the above scenario at 30fps as well...

... not making me respect the console scrubs, fyi.

Hmmmm gonna have to ask for some other scenarios people have noticed, but here's another.

Avoiding a turret. As a destroyer with devastator mode on. By running past it, and gunning it down during the 2+ seconds it tries to turn around.

[OniGanon]

I'm pretty sure I can avoid Dragoon melee by walking sideways too, on a Turian Sentinel with no adrenal.

Turrets, not so much.

Original Twigman wrote...
of course its easy to do, and of course Annomander can do it...

I think its just more about principle of how the mechanics should work, for him

That's what I find strange. A lot of these guys complaining about the Crusader have already adapted to its mechanics and can use it waaaay better than I can.

So they're not complaining about it being unusable, or even really all that difficult. Just that it's... not precisely the same as every other gun they've used in the last decade of gaming?

Modifié par OniGanon, 28 mai 2013 - 03:38 .

[me0120]

Dunvi wrote...

Original Twigman wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

suthelly wrote...

So if somebody caps their frame rate in MP, does that effect anything for the other players, or just make the crusader more instinctive to use?

Let's put it this way.

When I host on my netbook, at 10fps, you can avoid a dragoon's melee... by walking sideways... as a destoyer with devastator mode active and no adrenaline mods of any sort.

pretty sure you could dodge the above scenario at 30fps as well...

... not making me respect the console scrubs, fyi.

Hmmmm gonna have to ask for some other scenarios people have noticed, but here's another.

Avoiding a turret. As a destroyer with devastator mode on. By running past it, and gunning it down during the 2+ seconds it tries to turn around.

What good does a silly peasant having respect serve?

Anyways, enemy accuracy and response increases as FPS increases. That's pretty much all that's important.

[MP-Ryan]

WTF is going on with BSN and the Crusader?

Either learn to use it and adapt, or don't.

Annomander constantly brings up his UT experience. I've been playing multiplayer games for a long bloody time too (before matchmaking, for that matter, when you had to actually post and coordinate via IP address, before Unreal Tournament was first released, on a 28.8k modem) and the Crusader is merely a different variation on the theme of hitscan weapons over the last 15+ years.  I dispute the notion that you cannot predictably aim the Crusader because, indeed, I do so quite regularly.  And don't ask for a video, I am neither installing the software nor wasting my time recording one.

Again, I just can't comprehend the whining and complaining. Patches and balance changes are done. If you don't like it, fine, don't use it. Some of us can use it to great effect (yes, on PC at 60 fps) and will continue doing so.

OMGITDOESN'TACTLIKETHECLAYMOREANDIHAVETOLEARNTOADAPTTOADIFFERENTSTYLETHEWORLDHASENDED! Cripes, give it a rest you guys/girls.  We get it, you think the Crusader is terrible.  Oh well.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 28 mai 2013 - 04:03 .

[Original Twigman]

Dunvi wrote...

Original Twigman wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

suthelly wrote...

So if somebody caps their frame rate in MP, does that effect anything for the other players, or just make the crusader more instinctive to use?

Let's put it this way.

When I host on my netbook, at 10fps, you can avoid a dragoon's melee... by walking sideways... as a destoyer with devastator mode active and no adrenaline mods of any sort.

pretty sure you could dodge the above scenario at 30fps as well...

... not making me respect the console scrubs, fyi.

Hmmmm gonna have to ask for some other scenarios people have noticed, but here's another.

Avoiding a turret. As a destroyer with devastator mode on. By running past it, and gunning it down during the 2+ seconds it tries to turn around.

i think the only way you could do that on xbox would be if you had a frag grenade hit hard enough to take it out immediately. However, if you are using an analog stick, so its probably best to not try it.

but yeah... what Me0120 said.

PC has an advantage with the sharp controls, though. It really is difficult having to stop and turn or take the risk and not turn the camera while running, potentially running into enemies you can't see.

By the time ME4 comes out, I am hoping to be able to play on a PC, as i know i won't be buying the new gen xbox

[Titus Thongger]

on host I have a okay time using this. off-host, I mainly use it as something to stick an omniblade onto to beat mooks to death with

[MaxShine]

tyhw wrote...

 So going over the frame by frame analysis again, we found there to be a significant difference between 60 and 30 fps.

At 60 fps, we have this:  

http://asecretsnotas....imgur.com/all/

Go to the album, click on the first image (bottom) and flip through the images to see the frame by frame analysis.

By our reckoning, the bullet hits where the cursor was approximately 6-7 frames before firing.  Flip through the pictures to see what you think.  

This delay was actually inconsistent.  On other shots, we found the delay to be between 6-12 frames (between 100 and 200 ms)  These are not all documented, as Lord_Sirian is not willing to take hundreds of screenshots (and really, can you blame him?)

At 30 fps, we have this: 

Frame 1

Frame 2

Frame 3


Frame 1 is 2 frames before the trigger pull, frame 2 is the trigger pull frame, and frame 3 is where the bullet actually hits.

The delay in these tests ranged for 1-2 frames, or 33.333 to 66.666 ms.  This is consistent with MaxShine's test.

In conclusion, the Crusader aim delay is highly dependent on frame rate, and inconsistent.  It is significantly worse at 60 fps.  It ranges from 100 to 200 ms at 60 fps, and between 33.333 and 66.666 ms at 30 fps.

MaxShine did some testing here, which was very valuable

Also, note that none of this matches the reported .02 second delay reported by Bioware.  Biower pls

Addendum:
 
The hit delay does also happen on other hitscan weapons, though inconsistently.  So far, we've seen a similar 1 frame delay between the Talon firing and the bullets registering.   However, the ammo counter didn't update until well after the bullets hit (6 frames after the shot), whereas the Crusader ammo counter updated before the shot.  The Wraith seemed to register hits instantly. 

I would interpret some of these things differently. I do not think that frame 2 is the trigger pull frame as you say because the ammo counter is already at 3. In the beginning it was at 4. To update the ammo counter you have to draw a new frame.
So you find the frame where you pulled the trigger one frame before the frame with the updated ammo counter. (in the Glacier pictures)


With that in mind I count 4 frames between the cursor positions where the gun shoots in the video on FB London.

I assume the video and game run at 60fps in the London video so that would be 4*(1/60)=0,06666666666 seconds. More than it should be, but less than 0.2 seconds.

I guess we have to remember too that everything in the game is calculated on a per frame basis. So 0.02 seconds have to be transformed into a number that can be interpreted on a fps basis. I think usually they do this conversion in the following way(assuming 60fps): 0.02--->  ceiling(0.02/(1.0/60.0)) = 2 frames or 0.03333 seconds... which is the value I got when I tried it out.

I may look at this again later today, because there is still the question why the value you got on London is significantly larger than it should be...

Modifié par MaxShine, 28 mai 2013 - 11:08 .

[Daforth]

Sooo, if I understand correctly the general impact of fps, then it means:
- Want an easy game? then deliberately decrease your frame rate so enemies cannot hit you even you just casually stroll around them
- Want a seamlessly rendered, smooth and fast visual? Then the enemies will have pinpoint headshot accuracy from a hundred miles.

Do I interpret it correctly? I hope not, because it would be quite disappointing to have a game in 2012 on PC that is contra-productive with higher fps that even a medium level PC can do without effort.

[BattleCop88]

If only EA wasn't constantly rushing Bioware so they could actually test this stuff.

[GeneralMoskvin_2.0]

Iduncare if people cannot wean their lolBWs and lolharriers, the Crusader still rocks, especially when applied to Brollectors and rEApers. Perfect weapon for infiltrators and soldiers. Yes, perfect weapon. I said it. It's canonical. At least in my headcanon.

[OniGanon]

Daforth wrote...

Sooo, if I understand correctly the general impact of fps, then it means:
- Want an easy game? then deliberately decrease your frame rate so enemies cannot hit you even you just casually stroll around them
- Want a seamlessly rendered, smooth and fast visual? Then the enemies will have pinpoint headshot accuracy from a hundred miles.

Pretty much. However... I don't know about you but my ability to shoot worth a damn goes down the toilet at 30FPS, so it's a bit of a wash.