57 réponses à ce sujet

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

How does a girl cross dress, isn't that just wearing clothes?

[The Heretic of Time]

DinoSteve wrote...

How does a girl cross dress, isn't that just wearing clothes?

Nope.

Edit: Here's a better nope.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 26 mai 2013 - 10:16 .

[mousestalker]

Modifié par mousestalker, 26 mai 2013 - 10:40 .

[Silfren]

DinoSteve wrote...

How does a girl cross dress, isn't that just wearing clothes?

Well, it OUGHT to be just wearing clothes.  But no.  Women are better able to "get away" with cross-dressing, as it were.  It's more socially acceptable to most people.

[The Heretic of Time]

Silfren wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

How does a girl cross dress, isn't that just wearing clothes?

Well, it OUGHT to be just wearing clothes.  But no.  Women are better able to "get away" with cross-dressing, as it were.  It's more socially acceptable to most people.

No it doesn't OUGHT to be "just wearing clothes". Some woman dress in a specific way to look like boys on purpose. They're called tomboys. Looking like a bloke is the very goal they try to achieve.

Don't tell me that this is "just wearing clothes", because it obviously isn't:

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 26 mai 2013 - 10:56 .

[Silfren]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

How does a girl cross dress, isn't that just wearing clothes?

Well, it OUGHT to be just wearing clothes.  But no.  Women are better able to "get away" with cross-dressing, as it were.  It's more socially acceptable to most people.

No it doesn't OUGHT to be "just wearing clothes". Some woman dress in a specific way to look like boys on purpose. They're called tomboys. Looking like a bloke is the very goal they try to achieve.

Don't tell me that this is "just wearing clothes", because it obviously isn't:

(**image snipped**)

There's no need for the hostility.  I was saying that it OUGHT to just be wearing clothes, with no label attached.  People should be able to wear what they want to wear without society taking issue with it.  EDIT:  More to the point, a woman can wear precisely the clothes in the pic you posted WITHOUT trying to appear masculine in any way, and are less likely to be perceived as cross-dressing for having done so.

As far as tomboy, you are incorrect.  Tomboy is a label to describe girls who take up so-called "boy" activities, who prefer to wear clothes that are not distinctly feminine; in other words clothes that allow them to engage in those so-called "boy" activities, such as climbing trees or tumbling around in the dirt, as opposed to socially determined girl activities, of wearing dresses and playing with dolls.  It is NOT the term for a woman who cross-dresses.  Unless you want to tell me that all girls who get calle tomboys, who simply prefer pants or shorts over skirts and dresses, are de facto cross-dressing.

Modifié par Silfren, 26 mai 2013 - 11:30 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Also, one of my favorite video-game characters happens to be a cross dresser:



Zelda, the princess of Hyrule (on the left) crossdressed the male sheikah warrior Sheik (on the right).

[slimgrin]

 Yes, I would file a complaint with the morality police.

[The Heretic of Time]

Silfren wrote...

I was saying that it OUGHT to just be wearing clothes, with no label attached. 

People should be able to wear what they want to wear without society taking issue with it.

Those are two entirely different things.

Some girls WANT to be tomboys and take pride in the label.

Putting a label on something =/= taking issue with it.

As far as tomboy, you are incorrect.  Tomboy is a label to describe girls who take up so-called "boy" activities, who prefer to wear gender-neutral clothes as opposed to specifically feminine clothes, like dresses; in other words clothes that allow them to engage in those so-called "boy" activities, such as climbing trees or tumbling around in the dirt, as opposed to socially determined girl activities, of wearing dresses and playing with dolls.  It is NOT the term for a woman who cross-dresses.  Unless you want to tell me that all girls who simply prefer pants or shorts over skirts and dresses are de facto cross-dressing.

No, I'm correct. Tomboys are girls who act and/or dress in a masculine way, by behaving like boys and dressing like boys.

In Japan there is a whole subculture devoted to tomboys and cross-dressers, with women who dress, act and try to look like boys (and boys who dress like girls). They take pride in that, and I respect that. It's cool that the Japanese tomboy girls are proud to openly come out and say "hey, I'm a tomboy, I dress and act like a boy, and I like it."

It shows that both men and women in Japan are far more sophisticated than we are when it comes to gender equality. Japan understands how trivial and unimportant things like gender differences really are, as the lines between "male" and "female" start to blur in the Japanese society. We obviously are far from that stage in our western society.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 26 mai 2013 - 11:33 .

[Il Divo]

In Exile wrote...

Filament wrote...

@In Exile- It's in the Imperial City, near the Scholar's Garden. There's a sidequest for a theater troupe that's missing one of its actors who played the role of some noblewoman. If you have a female PC, if I recall correctly, the coordinator guy scoffs that you could at least have the decency to pretend to be a man pretending to be a woman.

Right! I totally remember that. I just forgot about that questline. Loved the opportunity to take the subversive CF path. 

Great, now I want to go ahead and pop Jade Empire back into my Xbox.

[bmwcrazy]

Cross-dressing is fun!

[Silfren]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I was saying that it OUGHT to just be wearing clothes, with no label attached. 

People should be able to wear what they want to wear without society taking issue with it.

Those are two entirely different things.

Some girls WANT to be tomboys and take pride in the label.

Putting a label on something =/= taking issue with it.

As far as tomboy, you are incorrect.  Tomboy is a label to describe girls who take up so-called "boy" activities, who prefer to wear gender-neutral clothes as opposed to specifically feminine clothes, like dresses; in other words clothes that allow them to engage in those so-called "boy" activities, such as climbing trees or tumbling around in the dirt, as opposed to socially determined girl activities, of wearing dresses and playing with dolls.  It is NOT the term for a woman who cross-dresses.  Unless you want to tell me that all girls who simply prefer pants or shorts over skirts and dresses are de facto cross-dressing.

No, I'm correct. Tomboys are girls who act and/or dress in a masculine way, by behaving like boys and dressing like boys.

In asia there is a whole subculture devoted to tomboys, with women who dress, act and try to look like boys. They take pride in that, and I respect that. It's cool that the Japan girls are proud to openly come out and say "hey, I'm a tomboy, and I like it."

It shows that both men and women in Japan are far more sophisticated than we are when it comes to gender equality. Japan understands how trivial and unimportant things like "gender" really are.

Girls can be and ARE labeled tomboys for simply not dressing in ultra-feminine clothes.  It's not about dressing specifically like boys necessarily. It IS about a girl going specifically out of her way to not wear distinctly feminine clothes.  Girls get labeled as tomboys all the time for preferring shorts and pants over dresses and skirts.  Being a tomboy is less about behaving LIKE a boy than about behaving NOT like a girl. 

Is the Japanese term for cross-dressing women ACTUALLY tomboy, or is that just a sloppy American translation?  Because I can assure you, girls who get called tomboys in the U.S. aren't getting called that because they are deliberately cross-dressing.  They get called by the label because they aren't perceived as girly-girls.  It's more of a term to describe a girl by what she is not. 

ETA: I should say that I'm coming at this from the perspective that tomboy is NOT a term for a woman who crossdresses, it's a term for young girls who society perceives as behaving like boys.  Cross-dressing is a conscious act of dressing to look like a different gender.  Being a tomboy is a label society came up with to describe girl children who do not like to engage in activities deemed as girl-appropriate.  Girls who "act like tomboys" are emphatically NOT going out of their way to look or to act as boys, but prefer clothing and activities that society says are more appropriate for boys, or, more specifically, not appropriate to girly-girls.  It is not at all the same thing.

Modifié par Silfren, 26 mai 2013 - 11:51 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Silfren wrote...

Girls can be are ARE labeled tomboys for simply not dressing in ultra-feminine clothes.

Well it differs from person to person where they put the line between "just a girl who wears gender-neutral clothes" and an actual tomboy.

For me, it's a girl who dresses and acts in a particular masculine way.

A girl in gender-neutral clothes is just that; a girl in gender-neutral clothes. That's not tomboy at all.

Is the Japanese term for cross-dressing women ACTUALLY tomboy, or is that just a sloppy American translation? 

No its the actual literal term that Japanese people use for masculine and/or cross-dressing girls. They literally call it "tomboy", with the English grammar and everything.

Other words they use are "okama" (cross-dressing boys, often homosexuals), "otokonoko" (heterosexual cross-dressing boys) and "ontemba" (cross-dressing girls).

Because I can assure you, girls who get called tomboys in the U.S. aren't getting called that because they are deliberately cross-dressing.  They get called by the label because they aren't perceived as girly-girls.  It's more of a term to describe a girl by what she is not. 

Describing someone by what he/she is not... that doesn't sound like particularily productive communication to me.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 26 mai 2013 - 11:54 .

[Silfren]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Girls can be are ARE labeled tomboys for simply not dressing in ultra-feminine clothes.

Well it differs from person to person where they put the line between "just a girl who wears gender-neutral clothes" and an actual tomboy.

For me, it's a girl who dresses and acts in a particular masculine way.

A girl in gender-neutral clothes is just that; a girl in gender-neutral clothes. That's not tomboy at all.

Is the Japanese term for cross-dressing women ACTUALLY tomboy, or is that just a sloppy American translation? 

No its the actual literal term that Japanese people use for masculine and/or cross-dressing girls. They literally call it "tomboy", with the English grammar and everything.

Other words they use are "okama" (cross-dressing boys) and "ontemba" (cross-dressing girls).

Because I can assure you, girls who get called tomboys in the U.S. aren't getting called that because they are deliberately cross-dressing.  They get called by the label because they aren't perceived as girly-girls.  It's more of a term to describe a girl by what she is not. 

Describing someone by what he/she is not... that doesn't sound like particularily productive communication to me.

I added an ETA to my post I'd prefer to you read.  It seems to me you are relying solely on the Japanese meaning of the word.  It isn't one that I'm familiar with, and I was restricting my reply to the American use of the word, which I maintain has NOTHING to do with cross-dressing at all.  Girls get called tomboys all the time without ever wearing a stitch of de facto boy clothing or doing anything at all to look like boys.

Modifié par Silfren, 26 mai 2013 - 11:55 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Silfren wrote...

I added an ETA to my post I'd prefer to you read.  It seems to me you are relying solely on the Japanese meaning of the word.  It isn't one that I'm familiar with, and I was restricting my reply to the American use of the word, which I maintain has NOTHING to do with cross-dressing at all.  Girls get called tomboys all the time without ever wearing a stitch of de facto boy clothing or doing anything at all to look like boys.

I'm not from America, so I can't say I particularily care about how Americans use the term "tomboy".

It seems tomboy can mean different things in different places in the world. That's all fine. I really don't care about it. To me, everyone has the right to be whoever he/she wants to be. Putting labels on people is only natural, and it's up to each individual to decide whether he/she wants to feel offended by the label that he/she is tagged with. I don't see "tomboy" as an offensive label, nor do I intend to offend anyone when I call someone a tomboy.


Really, people need to man the hell up and act less butt-hurt. As long as you are who you want to be and you're proud and happy, you have no reason to care what labels, with what intentions, other people put on you. Don't you agree?

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 27 mai 2013 - 12:02 .

[Silfren]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I added an ETA to my post I'd prefer to you read.  It seems to me you are relying solely on the Japanese meaning of the word.  It isn't one that I'm familiar with, and I was restricting my reply to the American use of the word, which I maintain has NOTHING to do with cross-dressing at all.  Girls get called tomboys all the time without ever wearing a stitch of de facto boy clothing or doing anything at all to look like boys.

I'm not from America, so I can't say I particularily care about how Americans use the term "tomboy".

It seems tomboy can mean different things in different places in the world. That's all fine. I really don't care about it. To me, everyone has the right to be whoever he/she wants to be. Putting labels on people is only natural, and it's up to each individual to decide whether he/she wants to feel offended by the label that he/she is tagged with. I don't see "tomboy" as an offensive label, nor do I intend to offend anyone when I call someone a tomboy.


Really, people need to man the hell up and act less butt-hurt. As long as you are who you want to be and you're proud and happy, you have no reason to care what labels, with what intentions, other people put on you. Don't you agree?

Oh, great, another "people are too easily offended," line of tripe.  Because labels are never, ever offensive, and never, ever carry racist, sexist, homophobic, or any other kind of bigoted connotation.

[The Heretic of Time]

bmwcrazy wrote...

Cross-dressing is fun!

Is that you? 

[The Heretic of Time]

Silfren wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I added an ETA to my post I'd prefer to you read.  It seems to me you are relying solely on the Japanese meaning of the word.  It isn't one that I'm familiar with, and I was restricting my reply to the American use of the word, which I maintain has NOTHING to do with cross-dressing at all.  Girls get called tomboys all the time without ever wearing a stitch of de facto boy clothing or doing anything at all to look like boys.

I'm not from America, so I can't say I particularily care about how Americans use the term "tomboy".

It seems tomboy can mean different things in different places in the world. That's all fine. I really don't care about it. To me, everyone has the right to be whoever he/she wants to be. Putting labels on people is only natural, and it's up to each individual to decide whether he/she wants to feel offended by the label that he/she is tagged with. I don't see "tomboy" as an offensive label, nor do I intend to offend anyone when I call someone a tomboy.


Really, people need to man the hell up and act less butt-hurt. As long as you are who you want to be and you're proud and happy, you have no reason to care what labels, with what intentions, other people put on you. Don't you agree?

Oh, great, another "people are too easily offended," line of tripe.  Because labels are never, ever offensive, and never, ever carry racist, sexist, homophobic, or any other kind of bigoted connotation.

Perhaps you should read my post again. I bolded and underlined the specific part you should pay attention to.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 27 mai 2013 - 12:05 .

[Sebby]

Yeah Silfren, do what heretic said and man up and loosen up already.

[bmwcrazy]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Is that you? 

It's Shin from Atarashii Prelude. 

He's beyond awesome.

[Inquisitor Recon]

All men should be wearing 1940s business suits and all women should be hot and wearing chain-mail bikinis.

[The Heretic of Time]

bmwcrazy wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Is that you? 

It's Shin from Atarashii Prelude. 

He's beyond awesome.

He's pretty funny. He looks like a light-hearted person who doesn't take life too seriously. I like that. We need more people like him in this world.