189 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

ME2 has no plot.

[ShallowlLife9871]

simply because she fit my manShep' s personality.... and i plan for him to shot her and romance cortez

[P. Domi]

I agree with pretty much everything iakus, CptData, Made Nightwing, Saito404, Mr0TYuH and EpicBoot2daface said. So, I'd like to bring a relted angle to the discussion. All characters in the ME trilogy (male or female) have some kind of flaw, which makes them more "human", Williams isn't an exception. Mass Effect gives everyone the option to be kind or a jerk to NPC's, the former allows you to influence in the character development, the latter usually shuts down conv. options, limits character development and doesn't really allow you to find out what motivates them, what makes them tick. In some Bioware games, this can lead to serious confrontations with party members (KoTOR 1, Baldur's Gate, Dragon Age...).

I found Ashley to be one of the most compelling, deepest characters in the saga, it helped me understand what humanity situation is in this IP universe. She had some of the best character writing in ME 1 (Chris L'Étoile and Karpyshyn both worked on her, to an extent) but she also seems to be one of the most misunderstood. Reading the codex, which L'Étoile suggests, is something many people don't do, so the mistrust in aliens by some characters is automatically classified as racism. Out of context, this is an easy mistake to make. Have you stopped to think how many aliens do not trust or express a strong dislike towards humans or other alien species (curiously enough, most of the time, they aren't considered racists).

They all have their reasons and motivations, nothing is clearly black and white. Humans are presented as a race which has just recently joined the space community and are regarded as aggressively expansionist. Shepard says it: "Respect is something everybody thinks they deserve, but in reality it's something you have to earn", which is what humans, represented by Shepard, try to achieve through the 3 games, by either a Renegade or a Paragon route. Those civilizations that have engagded in war against others clearly have grudges against members of the other species (turians vs. humans, krogans vs. turians and salarians, quarians vs. geth), which also mimics our political relations in post-war periods.

Unfortunately, what I wrote here may just be read and taken as my personal opinion (I like Ashley Williams as a character, I'm not hiding it), but if you read the writers' thoughts or watch the making of videos on how the Mass Effect universe came to be, it all makes a lot of sense. I personally like some aspects of all characters in the trilogy, some I like better than others, that's normal. I have fully explored Ash character during in-game interactions, I ended up understanding her better and I liking her as an NPC, and it paid off in my experience playing the three games. Just my two cents.

Modifié par pablodomi, 27 mai 2013 - 06:38 .

[CptData]

Mr0TYuH wrote...

Chris L'Etoile is a fine writer. He did an outstanding job with Ashley's character in the first game, even basing one of her sisters on his own wife. She had depth and was an intriguing combination of strength and frailty. Unfortunately, other writers never seemed to really understand her character.

Indeed. I'd say, Ashley feels that real since her writer put a lot of his writing skills in her character to make her as "normal" and "lifelike" as possible. Ashley? Could be an US Marine. She could be a Sergeant in Afghanistan, leading a squad. That's what Ash feels like, when it comes to the Soldier!Ash. And she also is a woman, a very fine lass, so to speak. Feminine, attractive and not shy. Ash has flaws, like every normal person, she's not perfect and no "uber woman". You could meet someone like her any day!

I can't say that about a lot of characters in ME2 and ME3. Some of them feel far less developed and others felt as if their writers put two or three complete characters into one. I think that's one of the big, big issues in the series: the quality in character development varies far too much. Some characters are nearly perfect (lifelike), others feel hollow. The big issue with Ash is her lacking character in ME3, while in ME1, she was one of the best developed characters. Not even Liara felt that "complete", Tali had an incomplete character and was misused as extended galactic code. Garrus and Wrex felt quite okay, 'though still not complete. It's funny - both human squadmates had more character development than the alien squadmates in ME1.

Garrus got his character in ME2.
Tali got most of her character in ME2.
Liara's character got twisted and warped with every part of the trilogy
Wrex became far more enjoyable in ME2 and 3, while in 1 he simply was the Krogan Merc with some feelings for his people.

In ME3, things changed entirely: neither Kaidan nor Ashley got proper content beyond their romance arcs, and even those they felt rushed. Obviously the alien characters got more development, plus the "new guys". As a writer by myself, I'd say that's understandable, but a crucial mistake. A good writer grants a consistent development to any of the story's important character and won't drop the ball prematurely.

In other words: Ashley feels incomplete and lacking thanks to the loss of Chris L'Etoile as her writer. Thane suffers from the same issue.

Modifié par CptData, 27 mai 2013 - 07:57 .

[Rafficus III]

Liara felt way too easy. In ME1 it felt as if she was more intrigued by me surviving the Beacon experience, rather than who I was. Ash felt more real and you could see an internal struggle going on inside her head throughout the trilogy. Watching her grow from the happy trigger soldier trying to get out of her family name's blacklisting to competent Spectre was a treat. Mix in her hidden poetic side, family appreciation (everyone else had daddy issues), and her subtle, yet tasteful, theological beliefs made her my favorite. She also matches up to the girls I date, so there's always that too.

[CptData]

^ If I weren't taken, I'd date girls like Ash - and only those girls. Ashley is my type, period. One of my co-workers felt flattered since she and Ash are the -same- type of women, including some traits, like "be a bit like a dude" in some fields. Ashley is the tough soldier, that co-worker is tuning cars like a pro *g*

[TheMyron]

My Shepard is stuck between wanting to sire a son with either Ashley or Jack (or Kasumi), and wanting a wife that will stay young for the rest of his life like Liara, (Or Samara as a milf).

Modifié par TheMyron, 27 mai 2013 - 09:15 .

[shep82]

I love Ash. I thought she was written well in ME 3 just could have used a bit more diaologue but overall great.

[CptData]

TheMyron wrote...

My Shepard is stuck between wanting to sire a son with either Ashley or Jack (or Kasumi), and wanting a wife that will stay young for the rest of his life like Liara, (Or Samara as a milf).

Well, I might sound sappy and such, but I definitely want to grow old with the love of my life.

So going after Liara just because she stays young and sexy for my entire lifetime, it would feels wrong, based on the wrong reasons. Of course, I'm not you, so if you love Liara as much as you love Ash and the "forever-young" part is an important detail for you, you definitely should go after Liara and keep things with Ash professional.

You also can do multiple playthroughs ^^

[TheMyron]

CptData wrote...

TheMyron wrote...

My Shepard is stuck between wanting to sire a son with either Ashley or Jack (or Kasumi), and wanting a wife that will stay young for the rest of his life like Liara, (Or Samara as a milf).

Well, I might sound sappy and such, but I definitely want to grow old with the love of my life.

So going after Liara just because she stays young and sexy for my entire lifetime, it would feels wrong, based on the wrong reasons. Of course, I'm not you, so if you love Liara as much as you love Ash and the "forever-young" part is an important detail for you, you definitely should go after Liara and keep things with Ash professional.

You also can do multiple playthroughs ^^

Perhaps the Liara thing is just the youngster in me talking.  

Romantically speaking, I still see Jack as capable of rivaling Ashley. They are both very likable in their own way, (They both do great voice actors and writers). And I still feel cheated that the game mechanics render Kasumi untouchable.

Still, Liara's/Aria's/Samara's azure will always be ready to embrace my Shepard's eternity.

Modifié par TheMyron, 28 mai 2013 - 08:59 .

[Manou1]

Why not?

[TheMyron]

Manou1 wrote...

Why not?

I started this forum because I got tired negative comment after negative comment concerning Ashley and wanted to read the comments from the Pro-Ashley individuals.

[Ryzaki]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

CptData wrote...
Highly depends on what you see as "deep and complex".

True. And honestly, I don't see her as deep and complex at all. 

Let's just say that for a lot of things between us, there's a fundamental revulsion that I get from her. 

I know a few people who are meh about her, but I meet the "hate her" portion quite well. Pretty much hated her from the first conversation on the Normandy. 

I wouldn't say hate but I disliked her since then. That sneer and "well Anderson said I could come aboard." just made me wanna punt her out an airlock. Needless to say Virmire wasn't a difficult decision.

Then I did vimirie Kaidan and good grief I haven't regretted any other choice in the ME series more. What a waste of space she was in ME3.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 mai 2013 - 08:03 .

[GoldFlsh]

Mr.House wrote...
She tells Shepard before she dies to go to hell. I tihnk the writer tried to make the players hate Ash in ME3.

I'd like to squash this myth. If you did absolutely nothing to gain Ashley's trust between the beginning of the game and the coup, she tells Shepard to go to hell. As in not visiting her at he hospital, and being a jerk on Mars. Wherever those imainary points come from. Of course she's going to be mean YOU were mean to her, too! 

If you did gain Ashley's trust and shoot her anyway, she actually says something along the lines of "You always told me to do what I believe in, I was just doing what you taught me" and Shepard is like aw.sad. and then the game continues.

I assume Kaiden is the same way, if no trust is built he continues to hate you. I'm not entirely sure what he says in either -situation, however.


On-topic:
Personally really adore Ash's personality. I don't think her personality was off in 3, her content was just bad. She was a good friend to my femshep. 

[Mr0TYuH]

CptData wrote...

I can't say that about a lot of characters in ME2 and ME3. Some of them feel far less developed and others felt as if their writers put two or three complete characters into one. I think that's one of the big, big issues in the series: the quality in character development varies far too much. Some characters are nearly perfect (lifelike), others feel hollow. The big issue with Ash is her lacking character in ME3, while in ME1, she was one of the best developed characters. Not even Liara felt that "complete", Tali had an incomplete character and was misused as extended galactic code. Garrus and Wrex felt quite okay, 'though still not complete. It's funny - both human squadmates had more character development than the alien squadmates in ME1.

The developers weren't too sure about the alien characters in the first game.  They were unsure how well they could convey their emotions through facial animations.  They were unsure well players would react to them.  For that reason, they intentionally didn't develop them too much in the first game, because it would have been a wasted effort if they failed in their attempt.  Liara had a bit more development since her face was basically human, and there was a precedent of hot, green-skinned aliens from Star Trek.  Once the game was released and the old Forums were inundated with threads asking for Garrus and Tali romances did they realize that they had succeeded spectacularly with these characters.

I agree with your assessment concerning uneven character development, but I think another issue was pacing, especially in the second game.  In the first game, character interaction was limited by completion of the core missions.  While it was an artificial constraint, it meant that all the character arcs, including the romances, were spread throughout the came, climaxing before Ilos.  In Mass Effect 2,it seemed like there were the foundation interactions, with the romance interactions tacked on the end.  That means, for any characters the player was not or could not romance, the character arc abruptly ended early in the game.  It made characters that were not being romanced feel very shallow by comparison.  It would have been nice to have a camaraderie path for characters in addition to a romance path.

Mass Effect 3 was worse.  At least in the second title, the romances all felt about equal.  In the final installment, it seemed to me that they weren't equal at all.  Liara received by far the most attention and polish.  It felt, to me anyway, like she was the official romance.  Then there were the secondary romances--Kaidan, Ashley, Garrus and Tali.  These didn't seem like the developers spent as much time on them.  In fact, I could probably demote Kaidan and Ashley to tertiary romances, because it felt like even less care was taken.  The next tier would be the "new" romances--Traynor, Cortez and Allers.  These felt forced and tacked on.  Then there are the remaining romances, which seemed like an after thought.  Finally, there was Jacob's abortive romance.  I can't really speak for the developers.  Unlike the other things I've said, these aren't based on developer comments or interviews; it is simply the impression I got playing the game.  To me, they just didn't feel equal at all.

[BioWareM0d13]

Garrus as a 'secondary' LI?

Surely you jest. Garrus got just as much dialogue as Liara.

[HiddenInWar]

Samtheman63 wrote...

me1 because she was the only human female

me3 i shot her for being annoying

You don't just kill someone for being annoying 

[Iakus]

HiddenInWar wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

me1 because she was the only human female

me3 i shot her for being annoying

You don't just kill someone for being annoying 

I really hope no one cuts these folks off in traffic 

[Exile Isan]

Han Shot First wrote...

Garrus as a 'secondary' LI?

Surely you jest. Garrus got just as much dialogue as Liara.

If I remember right, through the whole trilogy, Garrus has more dialog than any other character.

And in ME3 I would argue that he has more romance dialog than any of the other romances (I haven't finished my Liara romance yet so can't say for certain).

And if you want to talk about romances that got the shaft then Thane pre-Citadel takes the cake.

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

me1 because she was the only human female

me3 i shot her for being annoying

You don't just kill someone for being annoying 

I really hope no one cuts these folks off in traffic 

*loads shotgun* :innocent:

Seriously though think most of us are well aware of the differences in fantasy and reality.

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

iakus wrote...

I really hope no one cuts these folks off in traffic 

*loads shotgun* :innocent:

Seriously though think most of us are well aware of the differences in fantasy and reality.

You know I was kidding;)

Mostly:P

[Knight of Seven]

Made Nightwing wrote...

CptData wrote...

^ that's why 90% of Ash in ME3 is based on my headcanon.

Ashley: Shooting stuff first, romantic stuff later, Skipper.
Shepard: That's my girl.
Wrex: She'd be a perfect Krogan female, Shepard. Every girl that tries shooting me is ... interesting.
Shepard: You got your harem already, Wrex.
Wrex: It's never wrong to look for another female, Shepard. Keep that in mind if you have to repopulate your people.
Ashley: Don't even think about it.

Well, there is evidence for that. The amount of glitched, bugged and cut dialogues between Ash and the rest of the crew is just horrendous. You don't get her radio conversation with Tali unless you set up an enormously complex sequence of events, and that's barely scratching the surface.

Citadel DLC gets it slightly better. The conversation between her and Wrex, where he asks her if she would have shot him on Virmire, is an example. Ashley confirms that she would have killed him if necessary, Wrex answers that he respects her for that. Was a good moment.

When does this happen in the Citadel DLC? It never occured in my game and I just spent an hour trying to find it on youtube to no avail. I'd love to see this could you tell me how to get this scene or post a link of it on youtube? 

[CptData]

Mr0TYuH wrote...

The developers weren't too sure about the alien characters in the first game.  They were unsure how well they could convey their emotions through facial animations.  They were unsure well players would react to them.  For that reason, they intentionally didn't develop them too much in the first game, because it would have been a wasted effort if they failed in their attempt.  Liara had a bit more development since her face was basically human, and there was a precedent of hot, green-skinned aliens from Star Trek.  Once the game was released and the old Forums were inundated with threads asking for Garrus and Tali romances did they realize that they had succeeded spectacularly with these characters.

Good point.

I don't mind Garrus' or Tali's romance. Both are good, important additions to the game, more options how to RP your character are always nice. Thing is: while adding new and more options for the players, old options got ignored. That's -very- visible in ME2: all three romances of ME1 got reduced to cameos. Liara got a bit more stuff (at least if you played LotSB), Ashley and Kaidan basically got nothing except a badly written scene and a message.
Well, I can understand the decision sidelining those three characters, especially since the story arc disallowed Ashley/Kaidan to play a bigger role. And I can understand why to take them away from the player, so s/he can give new romances a try. However, as I said, "more options are good", this also should include "old options". In this case, LotSB should have added a romance arc for Liara spanning the entire game (messages, for example) and, obviously, for Ash/Kaidan as well. One message? C'mon. A bit more could have helped - storywise and romanticwise.

In ME3, well, Liara got her romance, but both romantic arcs for Kaidan and Ash felt incomplete and lacking, especially if compared to Liara's or Garrus' romance.

I agree with your assessment concerning uneven character development, but I think another issue was pacing, especially in the second game.  In the first game, character interaction was limited by completion of the core missions.  While it was an artificial constraint, it meant that all the character arcs, including the romances, were spread throughout the came, climaxing before Ilos.  In Mass Effect 2,it seemed like there were the foundation interactions, with the romance interactions tacked on the end.  That means, for any characters the player was not or could not romance, the character arc abruptly ended early in the game.  It made characters that were not being romanced feel very shallow by comparison.  It would have been nice to have a camaraderie path for characters in addition to a romance path.

Yeah, the story-driven romance arcs in ME1 worked quite well. You had some interactions here and there and those romances felt natural.

In ME2, things worked out only if you "locked in" a romance. Nearly the same in ME3. Without that romance, a characters story arc seemed to end. That's -very- visible in case of Miranda, which feels odd. I loved her as good friend in the end.

The thing is: I'm supporting your "camaraderie idea". In fact, I'd have loved to see developing friendships and such. No full blown "dating sim" or something, just enough freedom to RP your character the way you want. You dislike Ashley, for example? Instead of blowing her up on Virmire, call Anderson and tell him she won't be useful. And Anderson will send her off the ship, Ash is gone, one more free spot. She won't return in your entire game in ME1 but she might return in ME3. And there you can send her with Hackett.
Or you -really- dislike Garrus? Don't recruit him on the Citadel. He'll stay there, working as a cop, done. Garrus won't even make it to Omega.
And IF you have picked a certain character you don't like? You can be a jerk to him or her.  Let him/her know s/he's only on board because you need his/her skills, but that's it. That character won't be a good friend ever and may even want to leave your ship sooner or later, you won't gain his/her loyalty and such.
And what if you become "too friendly"? Well, your ship, your rules. If you -really- want to get Liara in your bunk for some Asari sex, be nice. Well, maybe she even accepts the reality your Shepard just wants some fun, no relationship. Try the same with Ash and get a well-deserved kick in your balls *g*

That's what I want to see. Also your actions (morality) should have some influence on those characters. If you're mostly renegade, some may follow you, others may dislike you for doing so. Your Shepard can't start a romantic relationship with Kaidan, for example, since he loves nice girls (or guys).

Mass Effect 3 was worse.  At least in the second title, the romances all felt about equal.  In the final installment, it seemed to me that they weren't equal at all.  Liara received by far the most attention and polish.  It felt, to me anyway, like she was the official romance.  Then there were the secondary romances--Kaidan, Ashley, Garrus and Tali.  These didn't seem like the developers spent as much time on them.  In fact, I could probably demote Kaidan and Ashley to tertiary romances, because it felt like even less care was taken.  The next tier would be the "new" romances--Traynor, Cortez and Allers.  These felt forced and tacked on.  Then there are the remaining romances, which seemed like an after thought.  Finally, there was Jacob's abortive romance.  I can't really speak for the developers.  Unlike the other things I've said, these aren't based on developer comments or interviews; it is simply the impression I got playing the game.  To me, they just didn't feel equal at all.

Primary romances in my eyes are: Liara and Garrus. Secondary: Tali and the new romances except Allers. Tertiary: Ashley and Kaidan, Miranda. Thane and Jacob got the short end of the stick.

One interesting thing I always get in my mind is the idea the original writer staff had a different idea of the series compared to the result. Also including romances.

Ashley always felt as the "canon romance" for a male Shepard in ME1.
Kaidan always felt as the "canon romance" for a female Shepard in ME1.
Liara was the third option to allow players to put a DIFFERENT romance than the canon one. Which is totally valid, especially since Liara didn't get less content. All romances felt equal.

In ME3, and that's the point, those old "canon romances" nearly completely got dropped. Liara is clearly the "canon romance" for the series while the rest just feels as "alternatives". Contrary to the romances in ME1, the "alternatives" don't feel equal. Two of them got destroyed (Jacob, Thane) and others ignored (Kelly????).

[CronoDragoon]

HiddenInWar wrote...

You don't just kill someone for being annoying 

I would in a videogame. Ask me if I'd like to kill off 1-2 characters in every JRPG and it becomes easy.

[CptData]

CronoDragoon wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

You don't just kill someone for being annoying 

I would in a videogame. Ask me if I'd like to kill off 1-2 characters in every JRPG and it becomes easy.

Fascinating.

I don't do that. In my very first playthrough (I disliked Jack and nearly never used Samara), I saved all of them in the Suicide Mission in ME2. It was the best opportunity to get rid of them without pulling the trigger by myself, but I didn't do it. Why? Because I rp my Shepard as a good captain. Someone who cares for his crew, regardless if he likes a certain character or not.
In my second playthrough I started liking Jack and enjoyed Samara's wisdom.

Everyone deserves a second chance. Hey, I even believe Saren had something good left in him ...