123 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

Leng is a hated character, and I've been thinking about how he could have been better. And I'm somewhat worried that it was inevitable. That no matter what, players would have felt cheated when they lost to Leng. (Not if they lose, but when.) No matter what, players (or at least people on the BSN) would feel "I'm Shepard, I'm the best human ever, I should have beaten this guy, bad-writing-plot-armor-BioWare-is-stupid." Particularly if the fight integrates gameplay.

I hope that's not true. But I've been trying to think of well-liked moments in video games where the protagonist is defeated in a cutscene, because such moments would go a long way to proving such a thing can be done. I haven't come up with any.

The defeat must meet two requirements.

The antagonist must not be significantly stronger than the protagonist, nor may he have significantly exotic abilities compared to the protagonist, nor can he have rigged the 'fighting arena' beforehand. If the protagonist is defeated by  an enemy that is very obviously out of his her her league, it doesn't count. The antagonist must be roughly on par with the hero - as any human enemy would be in comparison to Shepard in ME 3.

The protagonist must lose something significant in the fight. The defeat must have lasting consequences. For example, Leng kills Thane on the Citadel and steals the Prothean VI on Thessia. Big consequences. In contrast, during the fight with Saren on Virmire, Shepard isn't able to kill Saren...but the 'defeat' (It's really more of a stalemate) has no real cost. Shepard and Saren both evacuate. This is one of the major reasons, I think,  why the fight with Saren is accepted but the fight with Leng is hated.

Can anyone think of such a Cutscene Defeat in video games that meets those qualifictions but is well-regarded?

Modifié par David7204, 26 mai 2013 - 11:58 .

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

zoran lazarevic in uncharted 2?That's not ME related.You should go to off topic

[crimzontearz]

Letho and Geralt in TW2

[hiraeth]

My first thought was Adam Jensen at the very beginning of DE:HR, but idk if that would meet your first criteria of the antagonist not being significantly stronger than the protagonist.

[Astartes Marine]

Saren was a much better written character with a good voice behind him.  Leng by comparison has an okay voice with...less than good writing behind him.  He comes off as a ****y little childish ****** whereas Saren came off as a professional killer, cold and precise with a good way with words in dialogue. 

It's more acceptable when it actually feels like the opponent was quite capable of a victory in the first place, something that you never feel with Leng.

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 27 mai 2013 - 12:15 .

[AresKeith]

Kai Leng beating Shepard isn't what made him a hated character

[crimzontearz]

the darkness 1 has a similar scene, two actually

but one out if the two was loathed....with good reason

[GreyLycanTrope]

crimzontearz wrote...

Letho and Geralt in TW2

^
best example I can think of tbh.
Letho is another witcher on equal terms with Geralt, Letho's victory results in Geralt's lover getting kidnapped.
Letho was one of the most intresting and compelling villains I've seen in recent games, to the point were I'm often reluctant to fight and kill him at the end.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 27 mai 2013 - 12:26 .

[crimzontearz]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

the darkness 1 has a similar scene, two actually

but one out if the two was loathed....with good reason

I'm not sure what you're referring to; is it the part where the cops beat him in the church by using floodlights? I can't remember any other auto-defeats...

when he is forced to watch his girl being shot

[crimzontearz]

Greylycantrope wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Letho and Geralt in TW2

^
best example I can think of tbh.
Letho is another witcher on equal terms with Geralt's, Lethos victory result in Geralt's lover getting kidnapped.
Letho was one of the most intresting and compelling villains I've seen in recent games, to the point were I'm often reluctant to fight and kill him at the end.

he was never a villain, not against Geralt at least, he was counting on Geralt surviving it all not he wants to fight him at the end, but yes, that is why I picked him. Also Letho is kinda better than Geralt skill wise at that point but only because of Geralt's amnesia

[crimzontearz]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

the darkness 1 has a similar scene, two actually

but one out if the two was loathed....with good reason

I'm not sure what you're referring to; is it the part where the cops beat him in the church by using floodlights? I can't remember any other auto-defeats...

when he is forced to watch his girl being shot

That wasn't a fight per se, so I don't think it really applies.

how so? just because the fight is over before it begins thanks to the darkness itself?

[Mr.House]

Letho from TW2 and Azar Javed in TW. Hmm funny. Both are from the same company.

crimzontearz wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Letho and Geralt in TW2

^
best example I can think of tbh.
Letho is another witcher on equal terms with Geralt's, Lethos victory result in Geralt's lover getting kidnapped.
Letho was one of the most intresting and compelling villains I've seen in recent games, to the point were I'm often reluctant to fight and kill him at the end.

he was never a villain, not against Geralt at least, he was counting on Geralt surviving it all not he wants to fight him at the end, but yes, that is why I picked him. Also Letho is kinda better than Geralt skill wise at that point but only because of Geralt's amnesia

Letho beat Geralt because of his speed. Geralt is not as fast as Letho, as this is showen again during the final fight if you do fight him. Geralt only won because he was better with a sword then raw speed(Letho)

Modifié par Mr.House, 27 mai 2013 - 12:32 .

[crimzontearz]

Mr.House wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Letho and Geralt in TW2

^
best example I can think of tbh.
Letho is another witcher on equal terms with Geralt's, Lethos victory result in Geralt's lover getting kidnapped.
Letho was one of the most intresting and compelling villains I've seen in recent games, to the point were I'm often reluctant to fight and kill him at the end.

he was never a villain, not against Geralt at least, he was counting on Geralt surviving it all not he wants to fight him at the end, but yes, that is why I picked him. Also Letho is kinda better than Geralt skill wise at that point but only because of Geralt's amnesia

Letho beat Geralt because of his speed. Geralt is not as fast as Letho, as this is showen again during the final fight if you do fight him. Geralt simply one because he was better with a sword then raw speed.

you mean in the cut scene? yes, because in game play I owned him

[Mr.House]

crimzontearz wrote...

you mean in the cut scene? yes, because in game play I owned him

Yep cutscene, I liked it because it did make the cutscenes with Letho and Geralt very exciting and great to watch.I wish Bioware could make a great "villian" like Letho.

[GreyLycanTrope]

crimzontearz wrote...
he was never a villain, not against Geralt at least, he was counting on Geralt surviving it all not he wants to fight him at the end, but yes, that is why I picked him. Also Letho is kinda better than Geralt skill wise at that point but only because of Geralt's amnesia

He was very much the villain of the story pulling everyone's strings, he's motivations were simply not aimed specifically at Geralt because of their prior association, when he kidnaps Triss he effectivly become Geralt's antagonist as well. I really see them as on equal footing, Geralt getting back his memories later doesn't exactly give him a power boost. Unless you're talking about in game combat mechanics.

[Mr.House]

Greylycantrope wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
he was never a villain, not against Geralt at least, he was counting on Geralt surviving it all not he wants to fight him at the end, but yes, that is why I picked him. Also Letho is kinda better than Geralt skill wise at that point but only because of Geralt's amnesia

He was very much the villain of the story pulling everyone's strings, he's motivations were simply not aimed specifically at Geralt because of their prior association, when he kidnaps Triss he effectivly become Geralt's antagonist as well. I really see them as on equal footing, Geralt getting back his memories later doesn't exactly give him a power boost. Unless you're talking about in game combat mechanics.

It's possible with the last of Geralts memroies coming back, he learned some old moves he didn't know he could do which resulted in him killing Letho.

It's possible, but I like to think Geralt simply won because Geralt was just better with his sword work then Letho, where Letho was faster then Geralt.

[crimzontearz]

Greylycantrope wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
he was never a villain, not against Geralt at least, he was counting on Geralt surviving it all not he wants to fight him at the end, but yes, that is why I picked him. Also Letho is kinda better than Geralt skill wise at that point but only because of Geralt's amnesia

He was very much the villain of the story pulling everyone's strings, he's motivations were simply not aimed specifically at Geralt because of their prior association, when he kidnaps Triss he effectivly become Geralt's antagonist as well. I really see them as on equal footing, Geralt getting back his memories later doesn't exactly give him a power boost. Unless you're talking about in game combat mechanics.

Geralt was superior to Letho in the past, Letho kidnaps Triss because Silas screws him over not to antagonize Geralt, well not directly at least, and yes it was made clear regaining his memories made him stronger

[Mr.House]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

you mean in the cut scene? yes, because in game play I owned him

Yep cutscene, I liked it because it did make the cutscenes with Letho and Geralt very exciting and great to watch.I wish Bioware could make a great "villian" like Letho.

There was Loghain; certainly no villains of that calibre in ME though, no.

I don't see Loghain at all as a villian but then again, I agreeded with what he did at the battle so...

But yes, Loghain was awesome.

Modifié par Mr.House, 27 mai 2013 - 12:43 .

[Seboist]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
I wish Bioware could make a great "villian" like Letho.

There was Loghain; certainly no villains of that calibre in ME though, no.

The only decent villains/antagonists in ME are Saren, ME1 Balak and Vasir. The rest are a joke.

[Random Geth]

Filament wrote...

There's a right way to do overpowering opponents. Make them overpowering but not strictly unbeatable in gameplay, make it so that loss continues the narrative as normal and victory gives an alteration to the narrative where they either die or have to retreat incredulously while swearing their revenge next time when they promise not to hold back.

Not just where you beat them and they waltz away acting like nothing happened.

When you can clock in less than a minute on Insanity effortlessly even WITH the BS invincible gunship?  Then having the game tell you "lol no you lose" is unacceptable.

Plus, as noted above, Saren could actually pull this off because he was well-written and well-acted.  Kai Leng wasn't either.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Mr.House wrote...
It's possible with the last of Geralts memroies coming back, he learned some old moves he didn't know he could do which resulted in him killing Letho.

It's possible, but I like to think Geralt simply won because Geralt was just better with his sword work then Letho, where Letho was faster then Geralt.

I'm inclinded to think we'd see or hear a mention of old skills returning if that was the case, so I tend to go with the second option.

crimzontearz wrote...
Geralt was superior to Letho in the
past, Letho kidnaps Triss because Silas screws him over not to
antagonize Geralt, well not directly at least, and yes it was made clear
regaining his memories made him stronger

I may be forgetting something but I don't recall Geralt's past superiority being being established at any given point.