123 réponses à ce sujet

[Eterna]

Why is the villain having an unfair advantage a bad thing? In most fiction the villain always wins the first few encounters, then the hero overcomes them anyways despite their advantage, unfair or otherwise.

[Reorte]

It's just plain annoying when you're kicking the crap out of them one minute and the next minute the villain has won a fight. The fact that Kai Leng is such a hopeless character simply adds insult to injury. The fight with Saren on Virmire on the other hand (despite him grabbing Shep) feels more like Saren managing to escape by the skin of his teeth than winning, which is why that's more accepted.

It's a while since I've played TW2 so I don't really remember the details of the Geralt - Letho fight although I don't remember getting annoyed by it.

I think a good chunk of the problem is that RPG players essentially hate having control suddenly yanked away from them in order to kick the plot on the direction the writers' want, particularly when it results in behaviour that contrasts sharply from what the player was doing. It's probably hard if not impossible to write a story-focussed RPG that doesn't do that but it has to be handled very, very subtlely to not ****** off the player. And avoid trying to use it to force emotion - that angers me even more. It's great if a game makes me feel bad because I've screwed up somewhere but it just feels like manipulation if it's railroaded.

[Megaton_Hope]

Filament wrote...

There's a right way to do overpowering opponents. Make them overpowering but not strictly unbeatable in gameplay, make it so that loss continues the narrative as normal and victory gives an alteration to the narrative where they either die or have to retreat incredulously while swearing their revenge next time when they promise not to hold back.

Not just where you beat them and they waltz away acting like nothing happened.

And if the player is beating somebody without breaking a sweat, please, please don't make the fight last another couple minutes because you scripted it that way. At least the fight with Saren will end after I whittle him down to nothing, even though there's still no way to kill him. With Kai Leng, I have to be reminded that I could be reducing this guy to a plasma with my particle rifle, but the game won't let me.

Well who asked you, game? I got his shields down, he's standing right over there, this works on most people.

Also a rip-off in Metal Gear Solid, where Snake gets a sudden case of "No, can't do itis" in a situation where I would launch a Stinger at Metal Gear's cockpit so fast...

[Ieldra]

@OP:
You asked for good examples:

In the game Spellforce: The Order of Dawn, about two thirds through the campaign, after winning several important battles, you are ambushed by the main antagonist. You are frozen by his magic (he was established as one of the most powerful mages before) and left at the mercy of his creatures, one of your main allies is killed and you only get free through the intervention of another potential ally you'd been seeking for some time. To add insult to injury, it turns out that you'd been manipulated and that your actions helped the antagonist all along.

This was a truly great moment since that you were outmaneuvred was totally believable. You could watch your past actions and ask yourself "Could I have acted differently with the knowledge I had", and the answer was a resounding "no". There was no moment of "There I have been stupid", no complaints of your protagonist being out of character, the opponent just held the better cards and all you could do was to do better next time. Which you proceed to do.

Whenever I think of well-done setbacks for the protagonist in a story, I think of this one.

I think Bioware made several mistakes in the scene on Thessia:
(1) Kai Leng recharging shields out in the open while you watch? That's so utterly stupid I don't have words for it. An instant recharge using some sort of Reaper tech would've been more believable.
(2) Making this a drawn-out fight. Things might have worked if there was no gameplay but only the dialogue and a cutscene featuring a surprise attack by the gunship. Surprising Shepard isn't all that unbelievable. Beating him in a fight with obvious contrivances like that shield recharge, that's what makes people complain.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 mai 2013 - 11:27 .

[Erez Kristal]

The legendary dukenukem3d villians had no plot armor. back then they knew what to do with cutscenes

[Interloper]

Halo Reach had some interesting, 'Struggle for an hour on legendary trying to get through to one objective, see it being obliterated to pieces after completing the mission.' points. In that case though, I think the whole point of the game was 'Yay, we rebuffed the enemy! **** THEY HAD FIFTY MORE COVENANT DREADNOUGHTS WHICH WERE CLOAKED."

[Mr.House]

Eterna5 wrote...

Why is the villain having an unfair advantage a bad thing? In most fiction the villain always wins the first few encounters, then the hero overcomes them anyways despite their advantage, unfair or otherwise.

It's how it's done and how well written it is. Despite me not really caring for Saren, Virmire was still well done and made sense, that's why it's accepted. Also Shepard fights back in the cutscene and there was no true victor on Virmire. Then there is other examples like TW and TW2.

Kai Lame has none of this. He's a rubbish character that wins because of cutscene stupid. It's not similar to Saren on Virmire because on Thessia there is a victor that is won via cutscene stupid and it's very poorly written.

[AlanC9]

[quote]David7204 wrote...

The antagonist must not be significantly stronger than the protagonist, nor may he have significantly exotic abilities compared to the protagonist, nor can he have rigged the 'fighting arena' beforehand. If the protagonist is defeated by  an enemy that is very obviously out of his her her league, it doesn't count. The antagonist must be roughly on par with the hero - as any human enemy would be in comparison to Shepard in ME 3. [/quote]
[/quote]

Doesn't Kai Leng's gunship count as rigging the fighting arena? The problem is that ME2 players had already defeated a gunship or two.

I get the impression that Bio was going for Leng being superior to Shep because of his higher level of cybernetic enhancement, but they didn't set this up properly. Maybe couldn't have; if they had then how does Leng become beatable later on? KotOR got around this because the PC is regaining his strength with the Force.

[I_Jedi]

I have a list of all such instances:

Cutscene Incompetence

[Nerevar-as]

AlanC9 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The antagonist must not be significantly stronger than the protagonist, nor may he have significantly exotic abilities compared to the protagonist, nor can he have rigged the 'fighting arena' beforehand. If the protagonist is defeated by  an enemy that is very obviously out of his her her league, it doesn't count. The antagonist must be roughly on par with the hero - as any human enemy would be in comparison to Shepard in ME 3.

Doesn't Kai Leng's gunship count as rigging the fighting arena? The problem is that ME2 players had already defeated a gunship or two.

I get the impression that Bio was going for Leng being superior to Shep because of his higher level of cybernetic enhancement, but they didn't set this up properly. Maybe couldn't have; if they had then how does Leng become beatable later on? KotOR got around this because the PC is regaining his strength with the Force.

And I had handed Malak his ass on a plate when the game took control, stopped me with an attack I should have been immune to by then, and once I was free Bastilla closed the door preventing me from finishing the game then and there.

Besides Saren, and the reveal moment from Jade Empire, BW hasn´t been very good at this.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 27 mai 2013 - 06:32 .

[chemiclord]

I think you'll find it's very very difficult to do well in games PERIOD. If you make an enemy even the slightest bit beatable, players WILL find out how to do it, and there you have either a game-breaking or narrative-breaking flaw.

The only two ways that games really been able to do it is either through the "cutscene defeat" or make the enemy mechanically unbeatable. Gamers tend not to receive either particularly well.

Modifié par chemiclord, 27 mai 2013 - 07:25 .

[IanPolaris]

chemiclord wrote...

I think you'll find it's very very difficult to do well in games PERIOD. If you make an enemy even the slightest bit beatable, players WILL find out how to do it, and there you have either a game-breaking or narrative-breaking flaw.

The only two ways that we've really been able to handle it is either through the "cutscene defeat" or make the enemy mechanically unbeatable. Gamers tend not to receive either particularly well.

That doesn't mean that Bioware couldn't have at least tried.  In fact Saren in ME1 was a good example of doing this at least reasonable well.  Then there was Letho in Witcher 2.    The problem with Kai Leng, is that it's obvious the game is overtly cheating in order to make him auto-win.  I don't think anyone would take that particularly well.

-Polaris

[David7204]

The fight with Saren had a lot of advantages the fight with Leng didn't.

First of all, as I said, Shepard doesn't actually lose anything to the fight with Saren. The fight ends, and they both evacuate. There's no consequences. In contrast, Thane is killed on the Citadel and Shepard loses the Prothean VI on Thessia. If Saren had beaten Shepard and actually taken something from him or her, I'm certain players would have been a hell ofa lot more angry.

Secondly, the fight with Saren isn't really a loss. More like a stalemate. No, Shepard doesn't kill Saren, but Saren is the one to actually flee the fight. I'm not talking about the bad guy fleeing the fight, I'm talking about him soundly beating Shepard. That's a whole lot different.

Thirdly, there's a significantly different perception of Shepard between the fights with Saren and Leng. When Shepard fights Saren on Virmire, the only enemies s/he's killed are some mercs, maybe the Thorian, maybe a couple of Commandos. S/he's perceived by players to be a capable warrior, but not much more. The stakes are much lower. By ME 3, Shepard has done a hell of a lot more and is perceived to be a hell of a lot stronger. S/he's cemented as an immensely powerful galactic hero. It's much, much, much more difficult to create a humanoid enemy that's perceived to be as strong as Shepard without using contrived nonsense.

Modifié par David7204, 27 mai 2013 - 07:32 .

[IanPolaris]

David7204 wrote...

The fight with Saren had a lot of advantages the fight with Leng didn't.

First of all, as I said, Shepard doesn't actually lose anything to the fight with Saren. The fight ends, and they both evacuate. There's no consequences. In contrast, Thane is killed on the Citadel and Shepard loses the Prothean VI on Thessia. If Saren had beaten Shepard and actually taken something from him or her, I'm certain players would have been a hell ofa lot more angry.

Secondly, the fight with Saren isn't really a loss. More like a stalemate. No, Shepard doesn't kill Saren, but Sarenis the one to actually flee the fight. I'm not talking about the bad guy fleeing the fight, I'm talking about him soundly beating Shepard. That's a whole lot different.

Thirdly, there's a significantly different perception of Shepard between the fights with Saren and Leng. When Shepard fights Saren on Virmire, the only enemies s/he's killed are some mercs, maybe the Thorian, maybe a couple of Commandos. S/he's perceived by players to be a capable warrior, but not much more. The stakes are much lower. By ME 3, Shepard has done a hell of a lot more and is perceived to be a hell of a lot stronger. S/he's cemented as an immensely powerful galactic hero.

That is more or less true but completely beside the point.  The game is asking me to believe that my Infiltrator Shepard who is walking around with a man portable anti-vehicular gun (That is what the Widow and Black Widow are...just read the Codex entries...and they require cybernetics just to use) can't easily shoot down a combat copter....why you could in ME2?  Worse, you wipe the floor with Kai Leng (esp if you have energy drain, overload, and/or disrupter ammo) up until it's cut-scene time?  Really?

The big problem with Kai Leng is that the illusion is so bad that everyone sees through it.  No one believes that Kai Leng is really a "bad ass".  We feel cheated instead.

-Polaris

[AresKeith]

I think you'll find it's very very difficult to do well in games PERIOD. If you make an enemy even the slightest bit beatable, players WILL find out how to do it, and there you have either a game-breaking or narrative-breaking flaw.

The only two ways that games really been able to do it is either through the "cutscene defeat" or make the enemy mechanically unbeatable. Gamers tend not to receive either particularly well.

I'm actually ok with a cutscene defeat if it's done reasonably well

[Bleachrude]

It's weird but I think Bioware finally started to master this in the Citadel DLC.

Both the final fight with brooks + clone + merc are considered fair as well as to get the "one and only" achievement...

I think it might be that Bioware might be judging things on the fact that not a lot of people actually can get the insanity achievement.

[TheChris92]

Liquid Ocelot & Old Snake from MGS4

[AlanC9]

Nerevar-as wrote...

And I had handed Malak his ass on a plate when the game took control, stopped me with an attack I should have been immune to by then, and once I was free Bastilla closed the door preventing me from finishing the game then and there.

Besides Saren, and the reveal moment from Jade Empire, BW hasn´t been very good at this.

In retrospect the Saren fight comes across pretty well. Probsbly because he doesn't really defeat Shepard. If Shepard had been beaten there it would have been as bad as the Makak fight.

[Ledgend1221]

Snake vs The boss in ME3.

The first one on the bridge anyway.

[AlanC9]

IanPolaris wrote...
That is more or less true but completely beside the point.  The game is asking me to believe that my Infiltrator Shepard who is walking around with a man portable anti-vehicular gun (That is what the Widow and Black Widow are...just read the Codex entries...and they require cybernetics just to use) can't easily shoot down a combat copter....why you could in ME2?  Worse, you wipe the floor with Kai Leng (esp if you have energy drain, overload, and/or disrupter ammo) up until it's cut-scene time?  Really?

I don't recall the ME2 gunships going down fast or easily, actually. Though they should have let us shoot at the thing, it wouldn't have changed much

Anyway , I think the problem is Leng's recharge mechanic. Saren just has an enormous amount of shield and health points' so he looks difficult to take down Kai Leng goes down easier, but then he pops up again.

[Nerevar-as]

AlanC9 wrote...

I don't recall the ME2 gunships going down fast or easily, actually. Though they should have let us shoot at the thing, it wouldn't have changed much

Anyway , I think the problem is Leng's recharge mechanic. Saren just has an enormous amount of shield and health points' so he looks difficult to take down Kai Leng goes down easier, but then he pops up again.

Sniping took them down relatively fast, not to mention those heavy weapons Shepard decided s/he no longer needed.

Still doesn´t account for Leng´s immunity as he recharged shields if you got at the right angle to shoot him.

[Exile Isan]

Nerevar-as wrote...
And I had handed Malak his ass on a plate when the game took control, stopped me with an attack I should have been immune to by then, and once I was free Bastilla closed the door preventing me from finishing the game then and there.

Besides Saren, and the reveal moment from Jade Empire, BW hasn´t been very good at this.

Correct on both accounts. That fight on the Leviathan is ridiculous, Bastila often sacrifices herself for a no reason as the player has defeated Malak quite easily. Which players complained about as loudly as they have about Kai Leng on the Citadel and Thessia. I was there on the old boards I remember it well.

And I was going to mention Jade Empire but didn't know how to go about it without massive spoilers. But yeah Jade Empire is awesome in this respect.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 27 mai 2013 - 09:37 .

[AlanC9]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Sniping took them down relatively fast, not to mention those heavy weapons Shepard decided s/he no longer needed.

Still doesn´t account for Leng´s immunity as he recharged shields if you got at the right angle to shoot him.

Fast enough? I don't recall having much time between Kai Leng rounds.

Anyway, damage the gunship enough and they could just have gone to the cutscene anyway, same way the Saren fight ends when he takes enough damage.  Or just fly in another gunship, even.

[AresKeith]

Bleachrude wrote...

It's weird but I think Bioware finally started to master this in the Citadel DLC.

Both the final fight with brooks + clone + merc are considered fair as well as to get the "one and only" achievement...

I think it might be that Bioware might be judging things on the fact that not a lot of people actually can get the insanity achievement.

Now picture Kai Leng having his own squad during the Thessia fight and Cerberus HQ fight being the same way

[IanPolaris]

AlanC9 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Sniping took them down relatively fast, not to mention those heavy weapons Shepard decided s/he no longer needed.

Still doesn´t account for Leng´s immunity as he recharged shields if you got at the right angle to shoot him.

Fast enough? I don't recall having much time between Kai Leng rounds.

Anyway, damage the gunship enough and they could just have gone to the cutscene anyway, same way the Saren fight ends when he takes enough damage.  Or just fly in another gunship, even.

If your Shepard used a Widow (which is really an AV Gun that a normal person can't use), you can take down a Combat Chopper (see Illium Eclipse Base Mission) in about 3-4 shots at least in ME2.

-Polaris