123 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

That's the whole point...how can BioWare possibly design a capable yet plausible human antagonist when Shepard can do those things?

Modifié par David7204, 27 mai 2013 - 11:57 .

[AlanC9]

IanPolaris wrote...


If your Shepard used a Widow (which is really an AV Gun that a normal person can't use), you can take down a Combat Chopper (see Illium Eclipse Base Mission) in about 3-4 shots at least in ME2.

At all difficulty levels? I'll take your word for it. The few times I've taken the Widow I've already done that gunship.

[Reorte]

Someone mentioned surprise earlier - a character managing to get the jump on Shepard might work. The only other way is obviously crazily overwhelming force. Even then if it wasn't a cutscene someone would no doubt defeat it eventually but half a dozen gunships would be convincing enough. Basically it can't involve anything the player has handled before without breaking a sweat, or follow on immediately from giving you the impression that you were kicking the antagonist's arse.

[AresKeith]

IMO having a gunship shoot at Shepard in the temple was a retarded idea

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

Leng is a hated character, and I've been thinking about how he could have been better. And I'm somewhat worried that it was inevitable. That no matter what, players would have felt cheated when they lost to Leng. (Not if they lose, but when.) No matter what, players (or at least people on the BSN) would feel "I'm Shepard, I'm the best human ever, I should have beaten this guy, bad-writing-plot-armor-BioWare-is-stupid." Particularly if the fight integrates gameplay.

I hope that's not true. But I've been trying to think of well-liked moments in video games where the protagonist is defeated in a cutscene, because such moments would go a long way to proving such a thing can be done. I haven't come up with any.

The defeat must meet two requirements.

The antagonist must not be significantly stronger than the protagonist, nor may he have significantly exotic abilities compared to the protagonist, nor can he have rigged the 'fighting arena' beforehand. If the protagonist is defeated by  an enemy that is very obviously out of his her her league, it doesn't count. The antagonist must be roughly on par with the hero - as any human enemy would be in comparison to Shepard in ME 3.

The protagonist must lose something significant in the fight. The defeat must have lasting consequences. For example, Leng kills Thane on the Citadel and steals the Prothean VI on Thessia. Big consequences. In contrast, during the fight with Saren on Virmire, Shepard isn't able to kill Saren...but the 'defeat' (It's really more of a stalemate) has no real cost. Shepard and Saren both evacuate. This is one of the major reasons, I think,  why the fight with Saren is accepted but the fight with Leng is hated.

Can anyone think of such a Cutscene Defeat in video games that meets those qualifictions but is well-regarded?

That's easy: Geralt versus Letho, their first battle in The Witcher 2. It meets all the requierments you posted there in your OP, and it's well-recieved as one of the most awesome scenes in the game.

Here is the scene in particular: 


I think the reason why losing to Letho in The Witcher 2 is more acceptable than losing to Kai Leng in ME3 is because Letho is portrayed as a smart, cunning, strong and capable warrior who literally is Geralt's equal in every single way.

As opposed to Kai Leng, who is portrayed as a complete and utter moron in ME3, which makes losing to him in a cutscene frustrating and lame.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 28 mai 2013 - 02:52 .

[Megaton_Hope]

What they could've done with Thessia is have that brief conversation with the VI, and then...WHAM, MISSILES. Shepard got distracted! Oh no, he's on a shaky platform across the room from the beacon. Kai Leng! Blast you Kai Leng, play fair!

It's not fundamentally different, in terms of jarring breaks in the narrative, from what they already did, it just doesn't require Kai Leng to have beat me up in a "fair fight" where he's got backup out the wazoo.

[Maverick827]

Am I misreading something or are some people saying that Shepard doesn't lose anything on Virmire?

[Blooddrunk1004]

Leng defeating Shepard is not what made him bad villain.
Like other people already said Witcher 2 is one of the good examples.

However IMO the most memorable game where protagonist gets completely demolished by antagonist is Devil May Cry 3 (Dante vs Vergil, first fight).
I will never forget that moment,when Dante was lying on ground, barely alive and Vergil still decided to stab the **** out of him.

[Beerfish]

Irenicus in BG2? It really wasn't as much of a forced defeat by the player but he was made to stand around and watch Irenicus beat up a bunch of mages.

[Mr.House]

Maverick827 wrote...

Am I misreading something or are some people saying that Shepard doesn't lose anything on Virmire?

Shepard does lose osme tihngs on Virmrie, but so does Saren. On Virmrie there is no true victor, each side lost something important and had to lick their wounds.

You lose big time on Thessia. Because we didn't get the beacon we had to focus all numbers on Cerberus wasting time, then the Reapers found out about our plans, then took the Citadel which forced the fleets to go into one last bloody stand that resulted in alot more death that would have been advoided had Kai Lame never showed up or died instead of winning via cutscene stupid.

This is not the case on Virmire, Shepard lost a squadmate, Saren lost a whole base of operation including reaserch, genophage cure, his bulk of his krogan forces, his plan was now fully knowen, Shepard knew about Sovie and if you played your cards right, you where able to make Saren to reconsider his path. Also the scene after the Saren boss fight does not reak of cutscene stupid because Shepard does not act like a moron. Shepard fights back while being chocked to death by a enchanced turian.

[Nerevar-as]

simfamSP wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Kai Leng beating Shepard isn't what made him a hated character

I have no idea how calling in a ****ing air-ship and bombing the place can be called a "victory." That was cheating in every sense of the word. He was getting his ass kicked so he needed help, that wannabe Bruce Lee. Just wish I was able to express that instead of being forced into some post-defeat depression.

This too. I wanted Shepard to show anger, not mopping around.

And why does s/he act as if s/he´d lost Thessia? The planet was already lost even if we had got the info there. And both Earth and Palaven were going through worse. If the asari wanted their planet safe they´d better had come clean when they learnt about the Crucible.

[Endurium]

My problem with Kai Leng wasn't that he was scripted to win, but rather how Shepard was scripted to be an idiot during those scenes. My anger transferred to Kai initially, but after thinking about it I decided Bioware was to blame. If you're going to pit someone of potentially equal ability against our protagonist, please don't do it by making our protagonist incompetent. (Edit: the fights with the doctor in Arrival did the same thing to Shepard. "I see you're holding a grenade; I'll just stand right here and let you throw it at me.")

I didn't mind Irenicus because he was clearly out of my league at the start of the game. When he took Imoen I felt helpless, but eventually I got her back (a bit changed albeit) and eventually I got him back for what he later did to me. That was some good writing, imo.

The Geralt/Letho thing only frustrated me because while Geralt had supernatural sensing powers in Witcher 1 (especially during final cutscene with Foltest), he failed miserably in the intial encounter with Letho. Perhaps he'd let his guard down... but I still felt frustrated by the scene, like Geralt should have cut Letho somehow to give him a scar for what he'd done. Instead Letho gets away free and completely unharmed.

Modifié par Endurium, 28 mai 2013 - 07:47 .

[Blooddrunk1004]

Endurium wrote...

My problem with Kai Leng wasn't that he was scripted to win, but rather how Shepard was scripted to be an idiot during those scenes. My anger transferred to Kai initially, but after thinking about it I decided Bioware was to blame. If you're going to pit someone of potentially equal ability against our protagonist, please don't do it by making our protagonist incompetent.

I stopped counting how many times i dropped an F bomb during every Kai Leng scene.

1. Leng jumping on shuttle and starts destroying it, any smart person would try to do some flips or steers to force Leng to stop or fall off but no, Shepard ignores him.

2. Fight between Thane and Leng, Shepard and his team start helping Thane AFTER he gets stabbed but the moment when Thane punched Leng away,Shepard didn't even bother to point the freaking gun at him.
Actually no one doesn't move until Thane gets stabbed!

3. During Thesia fight you have advantage entire time until Kai Lame calls his ship and suddenly Shepard and his team get destroyed.  If Kai Leng can call his ship, why can't Shepard call Normandy?! And don't start giving me dat bull**** that Reapers would have destroyed it. If Harbinger is not capable of taking out the ship that is 50 m away from him then im sure the Reapers who are blowing up building wouldn't give a crap for Normandy.

If there is any game that insults player's intelligence it's Mass Effect 3 <_<

Modifié par Blooddrunk1004, 28 mai 2013 - 10:53 .

[Maverick827]

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...
If there is any game that insults player's intelligence it's Mass Effect 3 <_<

Based on your childish use of silly insults and phrases like "Kai Lame," I would say you don't have much to worry about here.

[CronoDragoon]

Tactics Ogre if you choose to stand against killing the village?

[Blooddrunk1004]

Maverick827 wrote...

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...
If there is any game that insults player's intelligence it's Mass Effect 3 <_<

Based on your childish use of silly insults and phrases like "Kai Lame," I would say you don't have much to worry about here.

Did you just got buthurt cause i insulted a bad villain and throwed some bad words in my post ?

Modifié par Blooddrunk1004, 29 mai 2013 - 10:27 .

[AresKeith]

Maverick827 wrote...

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...
If there is any game that insults player's intelligence it's Mass Effect 3 <_<

Based on your childish use of silly insults and phrases like "Kai Lame," I would say you don't have much to worry about here.

Really dude?

[Neoleviathan]

I would argue there is a cost to the Virmire fight, the loss of either Kaiden or Ashely.  So I think the Shep vs. Saren would actually fit what your looking for OP. Although I guess you could say it doesn't all take place in a single cutscene, because I can't remember if it did it all in one. But story wise I think it fits your two requirements.

Outside of games the fight between Kirk and Khan would probably be the best example I'd turn to. Not the Kirk vs. J.J. ABRAMS!!! Khan, the original one.

Modifié par Neoleviathan, 30 mai 2013 - 12:59 .

[Foolsfolly]

crimzontearz wrote...

Letho and Geralt in TW2

I kicked Letho's ass!

Thoroughly kicked his ass!

...and then the cutscene happened where Letho won. But instead of feeling like it was cheap (like the Thessia fight in ME3) I came away from that fight thinking both Geralt and Letho were bad asses. And while I had lost this fight I'd fight him again.

... I think one of the reasons why the fight on Thessia is cheap is because no one thinks Space Ninja was a bad ass. He killed a fatally ill hospital patient and fought with a gunship and unlimited shields. He also looked cheesy as hell. Letho looked fantastic.

[Fishy]

It's a hard thing to do and I don't blame the developpers. There's always going to be gamers that will complain they can defeat easily  the antagonist in their respective gameplay moment. I'VE seen people 1 shot Loghain in DA:O. Does that mean Loghain is equally that weak for every players ? No .. It's mean you have to take the gameplay pretty much out of context for many important fight. Same thing with cutscene..

Hell I was just recently playing NFS. No matter how good I was the AI would tail me and when I was sucky I would always manage to climb back position. That a gameplay mechanic. It's done to make the game always challenging no matter your skill level and give you something to race against you.

CUTSCENE are the same thing. They're made to push the story ahead. If the gameplay reflected the narrative ...WELL ... If you died .. Your character would be dead forever.

When I play my Shepard I KICK THE ASS... WELl if you played LENG you would kick the ass of your AI controlled Shepard.


Just take it out of context. GEEZ.

Modifié par Suprez30, 11 juillet 2013 - 11:13 .

[In Exile]

Foolsfolly wrote..
...and then the cutscene happened where Letho won. But instead of feeling like it was cheap (like the Thessia fight in ME3) I came away from that fight thinking both Geralt and Letho were bad asses. And while I had lost this fight I'd fight him again.

I don't see why. It still felt like the scene overpowered Letho and underpowered Geralt, if you curbstomped Letho.

... I think one of the reasons why the fight on Thessia is cheap is because no one thinks Space Ninja was a bad ass. He killed a fatally ill hospital patient and fought with a gunship and unlimited shields. He also looked cheesy as hell. Letho looked fantastic.

I think it's more that people weren't impressed with Leng, and so losing to him is lame, whereas by the end you generally respect Letho (as a player), and so losing to him isn't like getting hit in the groin with a brick.