253 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

chemiclord wrote...

  If someone started a thread claiming I promised everyone who posted in it a $100, should I really be held reponsible when I don't pony up?

I accept Paypal.  Thanks. 

[David7204]

Nobody would have given half a damn about the ME 3 endings if the rest of the franchise wasn't outstanding. I hate the endings, and they're still better than 50% of game endings out there. Probably more.

Don't underestimate the complete suckage of a whole lot of content out there.

Modifié par David7204, 27 mai 2013 - 05:01 .

[FlamingBoy]

chemiclord wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...
since you cut out relevant portions of my argument I will do the same to you, :P

When I talked about realstic implications I was talking about Pre-ME3 release. But EC is also relevant.

If you say something is going to be in your game, if you implied, if you implicated, if you suggested, if you created an expectation intentionally or unintentionally. The extent of responsibility is boundless and the company is responsible for it, that is how the game is played. This was why their was a controversy, bioware set a expectation and they threw it upon the rocks...

...and they payed for it

I snip to avoid those horrible quote pyramids.  I assure it was not meant to cherry pick anything.

Bioware set an expectation, but there were other factors that really aren't on them at all.

When IGN mistakenly attributed "16 distinctly different endings" to ME3... was Bioware REALLY on the hook for that when fans attached like lemoras to that statement and created expectations based on it?  If someone started a thread claiming I promised everyone who posted in it a $100, should I really be held reponsible when I don't pony up?

Or when people throw Casey Hudson's "A, B, or C" statement as a lie, when if you actually read the context of the statement he wasn't promising ANYTHING of the sort?  Is Bioware really supposed to be responsible when fans (either intentionally or not) make gross and incorrect assumptions?

I would say no; and it's absurd to think ANY company should be.  The "extent of expectation" is NOT "boundless", and it never should be.  That's ridiculous.

It is "boundless". (keep in mind I speaking in market respects, not in law)

and if bioware was not prepared to deliever on the expectation that they created (intentionally or unintentionally) they should have quashed expectation or never released the game (delayed?). Anything less would be dishonest.

They did, there was a scandal, and it hurt them. Thats simply how it works.

P.S. I did not really think you cherry picking, but that secound paragraph was better than the first:P:P:P

[HiddenInWar]

please stop fighting.... 

[FlamingBoy]

David7204 wrote...

Nobody would have given half a damn about the ME 3 endings if the rest of the franchise wasn't outstanding. I hate the endings, and they're still better than 50% of game endings out there. Probably more.

Don't underestimate the complete suckage of a whole lot of content out there.

This statement, fits nicely into the whole expectations are "boundless" argument I am trying to make.

People expected better of Mass Effect, especially from the final installment (to quote Liara "this is it, isn't it")

[FlamingBoy]

HiddenInWar wrote...

please stop fighting.... 

Its not a fight, its a debate I am quite enjoying:D

[HiddenInWar]

FlamingBoy wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

please stop fighting.... 

Its not a fight, its a debate I am quite enjoying:D

Not you really, more like the first couple of pages 

[chemiclord]

FlamingBoy wrote...

and if bioware was not prepared to deliever on the expectation that they created (intentionally or unintentionally) they should have quashed expectation or never released the game (delayed?). Anything less would be dishonest.

They did, there was a scandal, and it hurt them. Thats simply how it works.

P.S. I did not really think you cherry picking, but that secound paragraph was better than the first:P:P:P

I simply cannot jive at all with the idea that any expectation they unintentionally created (whatever that means exactly) is something they should be held to the fire for.  Hell, how could they manage expectation they had no idea they created?

I have no problems with fans going after them on promises they explictly made and did not deliver on (the promise pertaining to the Rachni is a pretty glaring one that I remember).  But so many of the "expectations" and "lies" I hear are at the end of the day pretty much fan driven fabrication based on their own expectations they conjured playing through the series.

Hell, I don't like the ending at all, really.  I think it's substandard garbage... but ya know... that's just my opinion man.  It's their story, it's their right to tell it how they wish.  If they screw it up, and they did, well they've done little to secure my future purchases, and that will hurt them far more than any expectation I had.

I don't know how it is remotely reasonable to expect ANY company to deliver on what you fashioned in your headcanon.  It's simply not realistic or plausible.

Modifié par chemiclord, 27 mai 2013 - 05:11 .

[dreamgazer]

What's the gauge on how much this "scandal" hurt BioWare?

[FlamingBoy]

dreamgazer wrote...

What's the gauge on how much this "scandal" hurt BioWare?

No clue, but their image as a company has been hurt, their integrity is put into question, they are viewed by as puppets for a larger corporation that "sucked the life out of them".

The damage is really real, but I cannot give an estimate with out pulling something entirely form my ass

[chemiclord]

FlamingBoy wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

What's the gauge on how much this "scandal" hurt BioWare?

No clue, but their image as a company has been hurt, their integrity is put into question, they are viewed by as puppets for a larger corporation that "sucked the life out of them".

The damage is really real, but I cannot give an estimate with out pulling something entirely form my ass

Pretty much.  Any number or sentiment anyone could throw out would be pure conjecture.

It boils down simply enough to if they produce a good product, they will continue.  If they don't, they will wither on the vine like many other companies over the years.

[dreamgazer]

FlamingBoy wrote...
The damage is really real, but I cannot give an estimate with out pulling something entirely form my ass

Precisely.

[FlamingBoy]

chemiclord wrote...



I simply cannot jive at all with the idea that any expectation they unintentionally created (whatever that means exactly) is something they should be held to the fire for.  Hell, how could they manage expectation they had no idea they created?

I have no problems with fans going after them on promises they explictly made and did not deliver on (the promise pertaining to the Rachni is a pretty glaring one that I remember).  But so many of the "expectations" and "lies" I hear are at the end of the day pretty much fan driven fabrication based on their own expectations they conjured playing through the series.

Hell, I don't like the ending at all, really.  I think it's substandard garbage... but ya know... that's just my opinion man.  It's their story, it's their right to tell it how they wish.  If they screw it up, and they did, well they've done little to secure my future purchases, and that will hurt them far more than any expectation I had.

I don't know how it is remotely reasonable to expect ANY company to deliver on what you fashioned in your headcanon.  It's simply not realistic or plausible.

One one of the early mass effect (talking me1 pre-alpha) videos casey hudson does the voice over he say
"this is your story"

Such a statement... the implications are boundless, is its very essence the player has now become a co-writer. Me3 took the control away and as a result there was a serious backlash.

P.S. I know the video exists, but I do not know where on the internet. So this is a kind of you have to take my word for it thing.

[FlamingBoy]

dreamgazer wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...
The damage is really real, but I cannot give an estimate with out pulling something entirely form my ass

Precisely.

Its always good to speculate... to not do so would be no fun:P

[dreamgazer]

FlamingBoy wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...
The damage is really real, but I cannot give an estimate with out pulling something entirely form my ass

Precisely.

Its always good to speculate... to not do so would be no fun:P

Interesting. So, what do your speculations tell you about the people who are anticipating the next ME game? Or the people in article comment sections that say the ME3 ending ordeal was blown way out of proportion and "getting ridiculous"?

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

What's the gauge on how much this "scandal" hurt BioWare?

We'll know in six-8 months or so when DA3 comes out.

[chemiclord]

FlamingBoy wrote...

One one of the early mass effect (talking me1 pre-alpha) videos casey hudson does the voice over he say
"this is your story"

Such a statement... the implications are boundless, is its very essence the player has now become a co-writer. Me3 took the control away and as a result there was a serious backlash.

P.S. I know the video exists, but I do not know where on the internet. So this is a kind of you have to take my word for it thing.

Well, the response I would have to that is that there is no reasonable reason anyone should have thought that it actually was "your story."

Case in point, when Microsoft ran their ad campaign, "Windows 7 was my idea" ANYONE who would have actually demanded cuts from Microsoft would have been outright laughed at.

Or when Bank of America ran their campaign of being "your bank", anyone who tried to force their way into the vault on that premise would have been arrested and sent to jail.

In either of those cases, the people who tried to do them would have gotten NO sympathy, either legally or in the court of public opinion; because there is an implied understanding that it's not REALLY "our idea" or "our bank"; it's a marketing tool to make the consumer feel involved in something larger, even though they really aren't.

I really don't see a difference at all in this case.  At no point did I really believe Mass Effect was "my story" and I think anyone let themselves believe it was fooling themselves, and frankly deserves the nothing they think they got.

Modifié par chemiclord, 27 mai 2013 - 05:35 .

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

Nobody would have given half a damn about the ME 3 endings if the rest of the franchise wasn't outstanding. I hate the endings, and they're still better than 50% of game endings out there. Probably more.

Don't underestimate the complete suckage of a whole lot of content out there.

This may actually play into why the backlash was so strong.

There is a lot of drek out there in the video game industry.  But for years Bioware has managed to stay above it.  They made a name for themselves by consistently putting out high-quality rpgs.

Now with ME3 (and to some extent DA2) they show themselves to be in imminent danger of sinking into the mediocrity of the rest of the gaming industry:  carelessly churning out sequel after sequel with no heart or soul behind it.  


That, I think is where teh real anger comes from.  A formerly safe bet, a bastion of quality,  has proven to be not so safe.  Where can you go now for quality rpgs?  We'll have to see how these Kickstarters turn out...

Modifié par iakus, 27 mai 2013 - 05:36 .

[FlamingBoy]

dreamgazer wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...
The damage is really real, but I cannot give an estimate with out pulling something entirely form my ass

Precisely.

Its always good to speculate... to not do so would be no fun:P

Interesting. So, what do your speculations tell you about the people who are anticipating the next ME game? Or the people in article comment sections that say the ME3 ending ordeal was blown way out of proportion and "getting ridiculous"?

There is anticipation for the next me3 game, is the anticipation is as great as me3 (or even 2) probably not.

As for the ending ordeal being "blown way out of proportion", lets just say I have never seen a controversy like the me3, its very likely I will never see anyting like it again. It went on for months with no sign of cooling down till muzyka statment to the press about the extended dlc.

To blow something out of proportion you need a media giants help, most notably in the mainstream media about celebrities. That said such media attention on the controversy was negative, most media gaming companies put down the controversy as "entitled brats" (which also hurt the medias intergrity, considering journalist are supposed to be a bit more balanced). Simply put the controversy had a life of its own.

The ending ordeal was also interesting on how it was kept alive by both the ingenuity of fans (not to imply people who did not like the ending are not fans) especially in regards to the childs play donation and the cupcakes, it was an incredible PR move.

[chemiclord]

FlamingBoy wrote...

There is anticipation for the next me3 game, is the anticipation is as great as me3 (or even 2) probably not.

As for the ending ordeal being "blown way out of proportion", lets just say I have never seen a controversy like the me3, its very likely I will never see anyting like it again. It went on for months with no sign of cooling down till muzyka statment to the press about the extended dlc.

To blow something out of proportion you need a media giants help, most notably in the mainstream media about celebrities. That said such media attention on the controversy was negative, most media gaming companies put down the controversy as "entitled brats" (which also hurt the medias intergrity, considering journalist are supposed to be a bit more balanced). Simply put the controversy had a life of its own.

The ending ordeal was also interesting on how it was kept alive by both the ingenuity of fans (not to imply people who did not like the ending are not fans) especially in regards to the childs play donation and the cupcakes, it was an incredible PR move.

I find that amusing.  Because I have.

I remember the outright fan riot after Ultima IX... and this was before the Internet was even a thing everyone was doing.  It completely destroyed that studio, that's how bad the backlash was.

And holy hell... you'd have thought Steven King wasn't going to be able to publish another novel after he finished the Dark Tower series.

Hell, we have a current example with Star Wars... been something like a decade now, and people are STILL frothing mad about it.

I mean, this is TAME compared to some of the heat I've seen thrown at creators.

Modifié par chemiclord, 27 mai 2013 - 05:58 .

[FlamingBoy]

chemiclord wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

One one of the early mass effect (talking me1 pre-alpha) videos casey hudson does the voice over he say
"this is your story"

Such a statement... the implications are boundless, is its very essence the player has now become a co-writer. Me3 took the control away and as a result there was a serious backlash.

P.S. I know the video exists, but I do not know where on the internet. So this is a kind of you have to take my word for it thing.

Well, the response I would have to that is that there is no reasonable reason anyone should have thought that it actually was "your story."

Case in point, when Microsoft ran their ad campaign, "Windows 7 was my idea" ANYONE who would have actually demanded cuts from Microsoft would have been outright laughed at.

Or when Bank of America ran their campaign of being "your bank", anyone who tried to force their way into the vault on that premise would have been arrested and sent to jail.

In either of those cases, the people who tried to do them would have gotten NO sympathy, either legally or in the court of public opinion; because there is an implied understanding that it's not REALLY "our idea" or "our bank"; it's a marketing tool to make the consumer feel involved in something larger, even though they really aren't.

I really don't see a difference at all in this case.  At no point did I really believe Mass Effect was "my story" and I think anyone let themselves believe it was fooling themselves, and frankly deserves the nothing they think they got.

Your counter examples are disingenious (particularly the BOA example), its hardly comparable. For obvious reasons.

Your right, its possible that no reasonable person would see that they had "total" control over the game.

But a reasonable person can see from the statement that you would have some control. That ending is the very definition of zero control, if that wasn't the case there would not be a comtroversy.

Now the argument has come full circle, simply put the expectations fans had (and the developers never refuted) of the game was not delievered. Hence bioware image as a company suffered.
It may be unfair, but this is how the system works.

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

And holy hell... you'd have thought Steven King wasn't going to be able to publish another novel after he finished the Dark Tower series.

Heh, I still haven't read a word by him since finishing that series.  Guess I'm not the only one;)

Only ending I've seen that approaches how bad I found the the ME3 ending.

[FlamingBoy]

chemiclord wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

There is anticipation for the next me3 game, is the anticipation is as great as me3 (or even 2) probably not.

As for the ending ordeal being "blown way out of proportion", lets just say I have never seen a controversy like the me3, its very likely I will never see anyting like it again. It went on for months with no sign of cooling down till muzyka statment to the press about the extended dlc.

To blow something out of proportion you need a media giants help, most notably in the mainstream media about celebrities. That said such media attention on the controversy was negative, most media gaming companies put down the controversy as "entitled brats" (which also hurt the medias intergrity, considering journalist are supposed to be a bit more balanced). Simply put the controversy had a life of its own.

The ending ordeal was also interesting on how it was kept alive by both the ingenuity of fans (not to imply people who did not like the ending are not fans) especially in regards to the childs play donation and the cupcakes, it was an incredible PR move.

I find that amusing.  Because I have.

I remember the outright fan riot after Ultima IX... and this was before the Internet was even a thing everyone was doing.  It completely destroyed that studio, that's how bad the backlash was.

And holy hell... you'd have thought Steven King wasn't going to be able to publish another novel after he finished the Dark Tower series.

Hell, we have a current example with Star Wars... been somethink like a decade now, and people are STILL frothing mad about it.

I mean, this is TAME compared to some of the heat I've seen thrown at creators.

Well yeah we can all point fingers and say "this is worse", most of your examples of other media (some of your examples were in the last century!)

Mass Effect controversy was unique of it self, was it the biggest backlash of all time, probably not. But it was pretty bloody big!

[FlamingBoy]

Interesting, this ultima (this was before my time) game you mentioned was also EA published game.
Patterns everywhere

[7Nemesis]

blame EA