267 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

tickle267 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Ah yes, Wulfie, again... prepare for indoctrination. I have my tinfoil hat ready. We are the Harbinger of your ascension.

They don't. Trust me. I use one. The voices go away.

[dreamgazer]

chemiclord wrote...

I'm not convinced the end of the trilogy after setting a precedent that you can "get around" any moral dilemma if you work hard enough and say the right things was a particularly good idea, though.

It's an unpopular opinion, but that's one of the things I actually do like about the ending, despite the execution. 

Not this time, Shepard.

[Nole]

What I really like about the ending is that never before had seen Shepard so vulnerable and with no way out of this dilemma.

[mcsupersport]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

The reaction to the end was probably the biggest overreaction in videogaming history. It was blown so far out of proportion it hit the stratosphere.

Pretty much.

I think it just didn't belong in the mainstream, and that was the problem. The mainstream likes black and white stories, endings which are always blithely and obliviously happy, and things which are meant to be taken literally.

If you look at the vast majority of what's out there right now, within the mainstream, then you can see that this is very much catered too. Artsy stuff is on the outer-edge, and by indies rather than mainstream publishers. You wouldn't see something like Journey being developed in-house by Activision. I think the main deceit with Mass Effect is that it was developed by a publisher who'd always provided exactly what the mainstream looks for -- unchallenging content.

Then, to them, Casey Hudson goes and ruins everything with his symbolic endings, which can't be taken literally, aren't black and white, and aren't air-headedly blithe.

Take a look at everything from Assassin's Creed, to Call of Duty, to Halo and you can see how true this is within the mainstream. The problem isn't that the game or the ending were bad, the problem was that the mainstream wasn't prepared for it. The great deceit of Mass Effect is that the first game started out looking like another one of those mainstream games that fits perfectly into expectations.

I mean, you have the Great Big Evil (the Geth Heretics), you have the Unquestionably Good (usually Shepard), you have the Token Bad Choices (which are moustache-twirling in how cheesy they are, and not actually meant to introduce any nuanced morality in the game, so they're just there for fun), and you have the Kill Everything plot. It was a simple, easy to understand thing. The mainstream had no problem with it because it sat nicely next to their other games.

It was closer to Call of Duty in space than most people would admit.

Then you had ME2 which crept away from that bit by bit throughout its story, then ME3 began to move away from it in large steps but the process of ME3 was enough to keep mainstreamers on board. Finally, you had last moments of ME3, where Casey Hudson just tossed the mainstream book out of the window.

"But... this isn't the good guy destroying the bad guy! I want to kill things! I wanna kill a Reaper! Why am I not killing a Reaper? I want to shoot this kid! Why am I talking to a kid? What the [censored] is going on?!! [Stream of expletives.] What's this with the choices? What? I just want to kill things! I want to kill the bad things because I'm a good guy! Tell me how to kill the bad things!!! What? The relays get destroyed, and the Geth and EDI die too? That's not a happy ending! [String of expletives.] WHERE IS MY HAPPY ENDING?"

And there you have it.

Sadly, this is a tactic that is impossible to fight and the person can't be argued agasinst.  The tactic is to simply label anyone who disaggrees with him as a "Fool, stupid, racist, bigot, close-minded, childish, or a "Call of Duty Player" and then dismiss everything they say.  Because if you are any of the names listed before, then NOTHING you say has any validity and thus you aren't worth listening too, since you are one of those people.  And since he liked an ending, he is much better/smarter, more enlightened individual and is special and thus can't be bothered to try and understand the poor fools point who are arguing against his exalted position.

Sadly, Wulf will never understand that while his opinion that the endings were fine is valid, so are those opinions that the endings were a hot pile of dog poo.  To me the endings didn't fit the story, and that was an "Artistic" mistake by Bioware..ie they F-ed up.  To those that like them, great, to those who don't, sorry to hear, luckily I have a computer version and can install the MEHEM to fix most of what I consider issues with the game.  But having ALL of the DLC does make the endings easier to handle...just sadly not good enough for me to sit through again.

[chemiclord]

dreamgazer wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I'm not convinced the end of the trilogy after setting a precedent that you can "get around" any moral dilemma if you work hard enough and say the right things was a particularly good idea, though.

It's an unpopular opinion, but that's one of the things I actually do like about the ending, despite the execution. 

Not this time, Shepard.

Oh, not saying it can't work...

But when you do something like that after making what the embittered call an "internal promise"... you kinda gotta expect a lot of your "hardcore fans" AREN'T gonna be happy.

And by "not happy", I mean, "violently pissed off."

[Hurbster]

Well IMO the ending was poorly written and worst of all rips some of its choices from other games (and in Invisible War not a particularly good one, either).And the whole (before EC and patching) needing to do MP to get a better ending. Oh, and after 3 large games it all boils down to choosing your favorite colour - after we were specifically told it would not be like that. And not even the option of the 'happy ending' for Shepherd. In fact the writers seemed to be doing their best to ensure a sequel was not possible. Even the EC was just a clumsy patch job which basically added sprinkles to the, well you know.

It was just a very poor, rushed and half-assed way of finishing a trilogy. I felt like I was being trolled.

[AresKeith]

dreamgazer wrote...

The idea behind the ending isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be, no.

The combined situation of the idea, the execution, the abruptness, the players' overreactions, and the way BioWare handled the situation were as bad as they're made out to be around here, though.

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I'm not convinced the end of the trilogy after setting a precedent that you can "get around" any moral dilemma if you work hard enough and say the right things was a particularly good idea, though.

It's an unpopular opinion, but that's one of the things I actually do like about the ending, despite the execution. 

Not this time, Shepard.

Yeah.  It turns out a lot of people don't like getting jerked around.

Who knew?  

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I'm not convinced the end of the trilogy after setting a precedent that you can "get around" any moral dilemma if you work hard enough and say the right things was a particularly good idea, though.

It's an unpopular opinion, but that's one of the things I actually do like about the ending, despite the execution. 

Not this time, Shepard.

Yeah.  It turns out a lot of people don't like getting jerked around.

Who knew?  

You see being jerked around.  I see a jolt of realism and a decrease in wish fulfillment.

[AresKeith]

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I'm not convinced the end of the trilogy after setting a precedent that you can "get around" any moral dilemma if you work hard enough and say the right things was a particularly good idea, though.

It's an unpopular opinion, but that's one of the things I actually do like about the ending, despite the execution. 

Not this time, Shepard.

Yeah.  It turns out a lot of people don't like getting jerked around.

Who knew?  

You see being jerked around.  I see a jolt of realism and a decrease in wish fulfillment.

I see it as both, so I win

[Reorte]

Realism? Nothing realistic about anything to do with the ending.

In any case if you want realistic on less concrete terms, which is what you're probably getting at, Shepard would never have made it anywhere near that far. To succesfully and convincingly carry that tone, and to not appear to be simply pissing on the player for the sake of it, the entire trilogy would need rewriting.

[dreamgazer]

Reorte wrote...

Realism? Nothing realistic about anything to do with the ending.

Hence: "execution".

In any case if you want realistic on less concrete terms, which is what you're probably getting at, Shepard would never have made it anywhere near that far. To succesfully and convincingly carry that tone, and to not appear to be simply pissing on the player for the sake of it, the entire trilogy would need rewriting.

You can have a jolt of realism without the situation being "realistic".

An inability to squirm out of a situation without making a difficult choice being an example.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 29 mai 2013 - 01:08 .

[mcsupersport]

dreamgazer wrote...


You see being jerked around.  I see a jolt of realism and a decrease in wish fulfillment.

If I wanted realism, I wouldn't play a science FICTION based RPG/Shooter Hybrid on a computer....I would join the Army and try to get into a warzone.  I play for fun and enjoyment, and having a company basically give me the finger at the end of the game isn't fun to me.  Maybe you enjoy it, if so...Great for you...but I don't.

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I'm not convinced the end of the trilogy after setting a precedent that you can "get around" any moral dilemma if you work hard enough and say the right things was a particularly good idea, though.

It's an unpopular opinion, but that's one of the things I actually do like about the ending, despite the execution. 

Not this time, Shepard.

Yeah.  It turns out a lot of people don't like getting jerked around.

Who knew?  

You see being jerked around.  I see a jolt of realism and a decrease in wish fulfillment.

Yes! 'wish-fulfilment dreams' we spin to cheat
our timid hearts and ugly Fact defeat!
Whence came the wish, and whence the power to dream,
or some things fair and others ugly deem?
All wishes are not idle, nor in vain
fulfilment we devise -- for pain is pain,
not for itself to be desired, but ill;
or else to strive or to subdue the will
alike were graceless; and of Evil this
alone is deadly certain: Evil is.

[dreamgazer]

Man, it really is one or the other with a lot of you guys, isn't it?

A shame.

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I'm not convinced the end of the trilogy after setting a precedent that you can "get around" any moral dilemma if you work hard enough and say the right things was a particularly good idea, though.

It's an unpopular opinion, but that's one of the things I actually do like about the ending, despite the execution. 

Not this time, Shepard.

Yeah.  It turns out a lot of people don't like getting jerked around.

Who knew?  

You see being jerked around.  I see a jolt of realism and a decrease in wish fulfillment.

Yes! 'wish-fulfilment dreams' we spin to cheat
our timid hearts and ugly Fact defeat!
Whence came the wish, and whence the power to dream,
or some things fair and others ugly deem?
All wishes are not idle, nor in vain
fulfilment we devise -- for pain is pain,
not for itself to be desired, but ill;
or else to strive or to subdue the will
alike were graceless; and of Evil this
alone is deadly certain: Evil is.

There's an entire world of fiction outside of archetypal fairy tales, iakus.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 29 mai 2013 - 01:14 .

[Iakus]

[quote]dreamgazer wrote...

Yes! 'wish-fulfilment dreams' we spin to cheat
our timid hearts and ugly Fact defeat!
Whence came the wish, and whence the power to dream,
or some things fair and others ugly deem?
All wishes are not idle, nor in vain
fulfilment we devise -- for pain is pain,
not for itself to be desired, but ill;
or else to strive or to subdue the will
alike were graceless; and of Evil this
alone is deadly certain: Evil is.
[/quote]

There's an entire world of fiction outside of archetypal fairy tales, iakus.
[/quote]

That was Tolkien.

He knew a thing or two about bittersweet endings 

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

That was Tolkien.
He knew a thing or two about bittersweet endings 

I know who it was, and what style of literature to which it refers.

[spirosz]

Is it really relevant to compare books to games?

[Iakus]

And here my point was there's enough suckage in the world I don't need to borrow more from the games we play to escape said suckage...

[Iakus]

spirosz wrote...

Is it really relevant to compare books to games?

To some here, there is no difference. 

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

And here my point was there's enough suckage in the world I don't need to borrow more from the games we play to escape said suckage...

That's fine.  I like my fiction more versatile and hard-hitting than that, though, and that comes from somebody who deals with more than his fair share of real-world problems. 

spirosz wrote...

Is it really relevant to compare books to games?

No, but the quote iakus brought up encompasses more than just books. It covers a style of storytelling in general.

[The Night Mammoth]

spirosz wrote...

Is it really relevant to compare books to games?

Not in my opinion. I've always found books more immersive and capable of putting so much more into a character or world or event than a film or game can.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 29 mai 2013 - 01:36 .

[spirosz]

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

And here my point was there's enough suckage in the world I don't need to borrow more from the games we play to escape said suckage...

That's fine.  I like my fiction more versatile and hard-hitting than that, though, and that comes from somebody who deals with more than his fair share of real-world problems. 

spirosz wrote...

Is it really relevant to compare books to games?

No, but the quote iakus brought up encompasses more than just books. It covers a style of storytelling in general.

That's fine, but limits in the medium can withhold what the artist wants to express in terms of the story they tell.  I find games too limiting (in terms of writing) to be compared to what books can achieve to the reader.