267 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

Alan makes a very good point here.  ME2's big PR promise was that "anyone could die, even Shepard", not "everyone could live."  I think the design flaw was that Bioware made it entirely too easy for everyone to get out alive.

I don't disagree that the Suicide Mission was probably too easy.  However, they did promise that if Shepard did everything perfectly, everyone could live.  Or Shepard could potentially botch everything so bad everyone could die, including Shepard.

[Nole]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The question is whether heroism ever pays off.

Galaxy saved, Reapers tamed or defeated.... I guess it does.

Sure, if you're going by history being written by the winners.

Ihave slightly different criteria.  The "how" is important too.

@Curael:  If you're on the PC, click the link in my sig.   team of modders have been working on  that...

But History has always been written by the winners.

[Iakus]

WittingEight65 wrote...

But History has always been written by the winners.

And the winners aren't always right.

[CuraeL]

iakus wrote...


@Curael:  If you're on the PC, click the link in my sig.   team of modders have been working on  that...

I thank you, and condemn you at the same time good Sir, see, I actually went to check the wiki one day, and found a link to texmod on Google, I then found TexMod, and I enjoyed ME 1 and 2 very much more than before I found the highres textures. Beautiful! However! I also found a single line of text, that ruined the entire plot of ME3 for me. "MEHEM, Legion and bleh bleh doesn't have to die, get the ending your Shepard deserves" something along those lines. My heart then filled with sorrow, cause I knew how it was going to end.

Unacceptable, I installed MEHEM, I then lay down ME3 for a couple of days, depressed, chewing on these new info. Was it worth it? If I was going to die? Then I actually came to peace with it, forgot MEHEM, and ended up surviving. It felt wrong, unintended, so I uninstalled, extraced all my modified god damn .pcc's and repaired ME3 two times, troubleshot until I found out it was DirectX causing my game to crash, reinstalled that,  loaded my London save and extracted my quicksave from just before I make the final choice. I have seen all endings and also enjoyed MEHEM. So I thank you for the opportunity, I really do. At the same time, god damnit spoilers! - Then again, I did kinda ask for it, going on wiki's and stuff. But I had to find out stuff about certain missions. I couldn't sell out Tali in ME2 loyalty mission, I just couldn't, had to get the paragon answer options for perfect outcome.

Bleh bleh I talk to much.

Thanks anyways. And it was a nice "extra" ending. I will forever have the Liara hug scene in my mind. As well as with the one of me placing Anderson's name. Good times..

[Nole]

iakus wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

But History has always been written by the winners.

And the winners aren't always right.

But they can make you believe that they are right, just what my Shepard would do .

[Iakus]

WittingEight65 wrote...

iakus wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

But History has always been written by the winners.

And the winners aren't always right.

But they can make you believe that they are right, just what my Shepard would do .

And what the Reapers did before.

[Iakus]

CuraeL wrote...

iakus wrote...


@Curael:  If you're on the PC, click the link in my sig.   team of modders have been working on  that...

I thank you, and condemn you at the same time good Sir, see, I actually went to check the wiki one day, and found a link to texmod on Google, I then found TexMod, and I enjoyed ME 1 and 2 very much more than before I found the highres textures. Beautiful! However! I also found a single line of text, that ruined the entire plot of ME3 for me. "MEHEM, Legion and bleh bleh doesn't have to die, get the ending your Shepard deserves" something along those lines. My heart then filled with sorrow, cause I knew how it was going to end.

Unacceptable, I installed MEHEM, I then lay down ME3 for a couple of days, depressed, chewing on these new info. Was it worth it? If I was going to die? Then I actually came to peace with it, forgot MEHEM, and ended up surviving. It felt wrong, unintended, so I uninstalled, extraced all my modified god damn .pcc's and repaired ME3 two times, troubleshot until I found out it was DirectX causing my game to crash, reinstalled that,  loaded my London save and extracted my quicksave from just before I make the final choice. I have seen all endings and also enjoyed MEHEM. So I thank you for the opportunity, I really do. At the same time, god damnit spoilers! - Then again, I did kinda ask for it, going on wiki's and stuff. But I had to find out stuff about certain missions. I couldn't sell out Tali in ME2 loyalty mission, I just couldn't, had to get the paragon answer options for perfect outcome.

Bleh bleh I talk to much.

Thanks anyways. And it was a nice "extra" ending. I will forever have the Liara hug scene in my mind. As well as with the one of me placing Anderson's name. Good times..

Well, I have nothing to do with the creation of the mod, I'm just an enthusiastic cheerleader 

And I assume if you're posting on a spoiler thread, you aren't afraid of spoilers 

But yes, MEHEM is an alternative, nothing more.  One Bioware denied us, so creative modders did what Shepard often did:  found another way.

[Nole]

iakus wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

iakus wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

But History has always been written by the winners.

And the winners aren't always right.

But they can make you believe that they are right, just what my Shepard would do .

And what the Reapers did before.

Well...I destroyed all synthetics in the galaxy, I'm not that different to them.

[CuraeL]

iakus wrote...
Well, I have nothing to do with the creation of the mod, I'm just an enthusiastic cheerleader 

And I assume if you're posting on a spoiler thread, you aren't afraid of spoilers 

But yes, MEHEM is an alternative, nothing more.  One Bioware denied us, so creative modders did what Shepard often did:  found another way.

You're absolutely right, I'm all for spoilers now, in this forum. ^^ but the whole texmod spoiler was unwillingly!
Yes, I would'of liked the option for that ending myself. However, if it was BioWare's vision to end the trilogy like for ever.. I suppose they did it pretty well, lol. If not a bit sloppy.

On a sidenote guys, the weird "breath" scene at the end of Destroy, it has me wondering.. Is there some sort of loophole? If ME"4" fails, will they backpedal and use that ending as canon ending?.. What could we possibly ever do as Shepard that would feel as something compared to defeating the Reapers, blowing up ourselves in the proces and actually surviving as well? Shouldn't they just'of left that second out? Or was it in regards to the whole ending killing Shepard they added it? To sooth? Was it in before EC? And sorry, do anyone even know the answer to this question?

[N7-RedFox]

Silcron wrote...

 is Mass Effect 3 ending as bad as we've made it look? It clearly isn't a great ending, but that doesn't mean is horrible either.

It was horribly unsatisfying, that's what it was.

[chemiclord]

iakus wrote...

But yes, MEHEM is a crappy alternative, nothing more.  One Bioware denied us, so whiny modders did what Shepard never did:  ran away from reality.

Fixed that for ya.

[AresKeith]

chemiclord wrote...

iakus wrote...

But yes, MEHEM is a crappy alternative, nothing more.  One Bioware denied us, so whiny modders did what Shepard never did:  ran away from reality.

Fixed that for ya.

Really Chemic?

[chemiclord]

AresKeith wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

iakus wrote...

But yes, MEHEM is a crappy alternative, nothing more.  One Bioware denied us, so whiny modders did what Shepard never did:  ran away from reality.

Fixed that for ya.

Really Chemic?

Yeah... I'm kinda poking iakus there.

However, one thing that I do note is that the MEHEM really doesn't... fix all that much that was supposedly such crimes of the original.

Your choices really don't have much more impact at all... in fact, it actually TAKES choice FURTHER away from the player.  It doesn't add all that much to fix the narrative dissonance... and in some ways ADDS more questions than it plugs up.  (While it removes the Catalyst entirely... that in and of itself just opens up a new can of worms.  What is Vendetta referring to then?  Harbinger?  I guess?)

The only thing MEHEM "improves" on is that it creates a Destroy ending without the consequences, which simply tells me at the end of the day, that's what REALLY matters to a good chunk of the player base.  Everything else would be forgiven if Shepard and everyone he was close to survived and no further price needed be paid.

(With that said, I don't particularly have a problem with that.  Just own it, folks.  You wanted a happy ending, and didn't get it.)

Modifié par chemiclord, 30 mai 2013 - 02:47 .

[David7204]

Exactly, which is not the message that needs to be sent.

[chemiclord]

David7204 wrote...

Exactly, which is not the message that needs to be sent.

Meh.  That message had been sent DECADES, if not CENTURIES, ago.

People will forgive a hell of a lot if it makes them feel good.  It's not a secret, and it's been true for as long as stories have been told.  It's why if you want to deviate from the model, you better damn well make sure you've got every base covered and covered tight; because unhappy fans will find whatever reason they can to complain about it.

Modifié par chemiclord, 30 mai 2013 - 02:54 .

[AresKeith]

chemiclord wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

iakus wrote...

But yes, MEHEM is a crappy alternative, nothing more.  One Bioware denied us, so whiny modders did what Shepard never did:  ran away from reality.

Fixed that for ya.

Really Chemic?

Yeah... I'm kinda poking iakus there.

However, one thing that I do note is that the MEHEM really doesn't... fix all that much that was supposedly such crimes of the original.

Your choices really don't have much more impact at all... in fact, it actually TAKES choice FURTHER away from the player.  It doesn't add all that much to fix the narrative dissonance... and in some ways ADDS more questions than it plugs up.  (While it removes the Catalyst entirely... that in and of itself just opens up a new can of worms.  What is Vendetta referring to then?  Harbinger?  I guess?)

The only thing MEHEM "improves" on is that it creates a Destroy ending without the consequences, which simply tells me at the end of the day, that's what REALLY matters to a good chunk of the player base.  Everything else would be forgiven if Shepard and everyone he was close to survived and no further price needed be paid.

(With that said, I don't particularly have a problem with that.  Just own it, folks.  You wanted a happy ending, and didn't get it.)

Well MEHEM only tries the sweep things under the rug because of how limited it is

And I wouldn't really call it a "Happy Ending", no ending after ME3 can be a "happy one"

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

Yeah... I'm kinda poking iakus there.

However, one thing that I do note is that the MEHEM really doesn't... fix all that much that was supposedly such crimes of the original.

Your choices really don't have much more impact at all... in fact, it actually TAKES choice FURTHER away from the player.  It doesn't add all that much to fix the narrative dissonance... and in some ways ADDS more questions than it plugs up.  (While it removes the Catalyst entirely... that in and of itself just opens up a new can of worms.  What is Vendetta referring to then?  Harbinger?  I guess?)

The only thing MEHEM "improves" on is that it creates a Destroy ending without the consequences, which simply tells me at the end of the day, that's what REALLY matters to a good chunk of the player base.  Everything else would be forgiven if Shepard and everyone he was close to survived and no further price needed be paid.

(With that said, I don't particularly have a problem with that.  Just own it, folks.  You wanted a happy ending, and didn't get it.)

If MEHEM could offer Control and Synthesis versions of it, I'd be all for it.  But the limits of modding prevent it.  So, as has been said before "the choice is in installing it" And since there are no other options that are palatable for me, I made my choice.

removing the Catalyst, to me, removes much of the dissonance.  The insane logic of "the created will always turn on the creators" and so on.  Personally, I'm fine with leving some mystery to teh Reapers.  As far as I'm concerned, Vendetta was right:  the Catalyst was the Citadel.  What of these other patterns it mentioned?  Sequel bait.

Destroy still eaves one often overlooked consequence:  The relays.  There are no reapers to lend their knowledge or power to repair them.  The younger races are left to their own devices, with each world cut off from each other save whatever QEC devices remain.  The galaxy will be decades if not centuries revovering.  

Is MEHEM a "happier" ending?  Obviously.  The arbitrary consequence of genociding EDI and the geth is gone.  But Mac Walter's "galactic wasteland" is still there, if to a lesser degree since it's been made clear the relays aren't destroyed.

I've never made any secret that I found the original endings too bitter.  What I have denied is the "rainbows and unicorns" charge the grimdark fans often seem to lay on anyone who disagrees wit htheir tastes.

[Wolfva2]

MEHEM. Heh. The ending your Shepard deserves. Heh.

I think Gandalf the Grey said it best. "Many that live deserve death. And some who die deserve life." The whole concept of 'deserve' revolves around the belief that there is some force that metes out reward or punishment; be it God, karma, justice, whatever. That's one of the things I truly liked about Mass Effect. "Deserve" has nothing to do with it. Just like real life. You can make all the 'right' decisions and still die in the end. Because death? It doesn't matter. We ALL die. What matters is our actions; what we do. People get angry because Shep dies in the end. They want him to live a long happy life with his LI. I call that 'the fairy tale ending'..."And everyone lived happily ever after! The End!" Sure, there is nothing wrong with that type of a story. Perhaps they should make a new ME with that in mind; he could ride to battle on his unicorn pony Normandy which fires rainbows from it's horn and defeats Reapers with hugs. I'm sure there are people that would like that game. I wouldn't. Which makes me happy that BW makes games *I* like, instead of games I don't like. Of course, if they did I just wouldn't play them, I wouldn't insist they change their entire business model and alienate their fans to make someone who doesn't like them happy. But, I digress.

For me, Shepard HAS to die at the end. I can't see him living. I mean, really. Can you see him, 20 years in the future? At the VFW club? "Yeah, kids these days don't know CRAP! Why, when I was their age we had to fight REAPERS! Now what challenges do they got? BAH!" Or, Shepard at work? Sitting in his cubicle pushing papers around while some manager hovers over him..."Shep? Yeahhh, Sheplooo, we need those T-90 reports liiiike, as soooon as you can get them to us. Okay Sheppy? Yeahhhh." Shepard was a Heroic Character. He died saving the universe. To me, that was a good death, and a good ending.

Breathe scene not withstanding.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Wolfva2 wrote...



"Shep? Yeahhh, Sheplooo, we need those T-90 reports liiiike, as soooon as you can get them to us. Okay Sheppy? Yeahhhh."

Best ending ever!

[SpamBot2000]

chemiclord wrote...

iakus wrote...

But yes, MEHEM is a crappy alternative, nothing more.  One Bioware denied us, so whiny modders did what Shepard never did:  ran away from reality.

Fixed that for ya.

Because in Reality, you always get an ABC choice to determine the fate of the entire galaxy?

[Nole]

Wolfva2 wrote...

MEHEM. Heh. The ending your Shepard deserves. Heh.

I think Gandalf the Grey said it best. "Many that live deserve death. And some who die deserve life." The whole concept of 'deserve' revolves around the belief that there is some force that metes out reward or punishment; be it God, karma, justice, whatever. That's one of the things I truly liked about Mass Effect. "Deserve" has nothing to do with it. Just like real life. You can make all the 'right' decisions and still die in the end. Because death? It doesn't matter. We ALL die. What matters is our actions; what we do. People get angry because Shep dies in the end. They want him to live a long happy life with his LI. I call that 'the fairy tale ending'..."And everyone lived happily ever after! The End!" Sure, there is nothing wrong with that type of a story. Perhaps they should make a new ME with that in mind; he could ride to battle on his unicorn pony Normandy which fires rainbows from it's horn and defeats Reapers with hugs. I'm sure there are people that would like that game. I wouldn't. Which makes me happy that BW makes games *I* like, instead of games I don't like. Of course, if they did I just wouldn't play them, I wouldn't insist they change their entire business model and alienate their fans to make someone who doesn't like them happy. But, I digress.

For me, Shepard HAS to die at the end. I can't see him living. I mean, really. Can you see him, 20 years in the future? At the VFW club? "Yeah, kids these days don't know CRAP! Why, when I was their age we had to fight REAPERS! Now what challenges do they got? BAH!" Or, Shepard at work? Sitting in his cubicle pushing papers around while some manager hovers over him..."Shep? Yeahhh, Sheplooo, we need those T-90 reports liiiike, as soooon as you can get them to us. Okay Sheppy? Yeahhhh." Shepard was a Heroic Character. He died saving the universe. To me, that was a good death, and a good ending.

Breathe scene not withstanding.

Honestly, the first time that I thought "how could the ending of this trilogy be?", the first thing that came to my mind was Shepard standing at the battle field with a victorious look with Liara  Miranda at his side.
But I'm really okay with the endings we got .

[Iakus]

Wolfva2 wrote...

MEHEM. Heh. The ending your Shepard deserves. Heh.

I think Gandalf the Grey said it best. "Many that live deserve death. And some who die deserve life." The whole concept of 'deserve' revolves around the belief that there is some force that metes out reward or punishment; be it God, karma, justice, whatever. That's one of the things I truly liked about Mass Effect. "Deserve" has nothing to do with it. Just like real life. You can make all the 'right' decisions and still die in the end. Because death? It doesn't matter. We ALL die. What matters is our actions; what we do. People get angry because Shep dies in the end. They want him to live a long happy life with his LI. I call that 'the fairy tale ending'..."And everyone lived happily ever after! The End!" Sure, there is nothing wrong with that type of a story. Perhaps they should make a new ME with that in mind; he could ride to battle on his unicorn pony Normandy which fires rainbows from it's horn and defeats Reapers with hugs. I'm sure there are people that would like that game. I wouldn't. Which makes me happy that BW makes games *I* like, instead of games I don't like. Of course, if they did I just wouldn't play them, I wouldn't insist they change their entire business model and alienate their fans to make someone who doesn't like them happy. But, I digress.

Yeah.  Pretty sure troll/

For me, Shepard HAS to die at the end. I can't see him living. I mean, really. Can you see him, 20 years in the future? At the VFW club? "Yeah, kids these days don't know CRAP! Why, when I was their age we had to fight REAPERS! Now what challenges do they got? BAH!" Or, Shepard at work? Sitting in his cubicle pushing papers around while some manager hovers over him..."Shep? Yeahhh, Sheplooo, we need those T-90 reports liiiike, as soooon as you can get them to us. Okay Sheppy? Yeahhhh." Shepard was a Heroic Character. He died saving the universe. To me, that was a good death, and a good ending.

Breathe scene not withstanding.

Great, you get a heroic death.  Because you think Shepard has to die

I get a Shepard who helps rebuild the galaxy afterwards.  Because i think Shepard had something to live for.

You see how wonderful options are?  

Modifié par iakus, 30 mai 2013 - 04:22 .

[Wolfva2]

iakus wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

MEHEM. Heh. The ending your Shepard deserves. Heh.

I think Gandalf the Grey said it best. "Many that live deserve death. And some who die deserve life." The whole concept of 'deserve' revolves around the belief that there is some force that metes out reward or punishment; be it God, karma, justice, whatever. That's one of the things I truly liked about Mass Effect. "Deserve" has nothing to do with it. Just like real life. You can make all the 'right' decisions and still die in the end. Because death? It doesn't matter. We ALL die. What matters is our actions; what we do. People get angry because Shep dies in the end. They want him to live a long happy life with his LI. I call that 'the fairy tale ending'..."And everyone lived happily ever after! The End!" Sure, there is nothing wrong with that type of a story. Perhaps they should make a new ME with that in mind; he could ride to battle on his unicorn pony Normandy which fires rainbows from it's horn and defeats Reapers with hugs. I'm sure there are people that would like that game. I wouldn't. Which makes me happy that BW makes games *I* like, instead of games I don't like. Of course, if they did I just wouldn't play them, I wouldn't insist they change their entire business model and alienate their fans to make someone who doesn't like them happy. But, I digress.

Yeah.  Pretty sure troll/

For me, Shepard HAS to die at the end. I can't see him living. I mean, really. Can you see him, 20 years in the future? At the VFW club? "Yeah, kids these days don't know CRAP! Why, when I was their age we had to fight REAPERS! Now what challenges do they got? BAH!" Or, Shepard at work? Sitting in his cubicle pushing papers around while some manager hovers over him..."Shep? Yeahhh, Sheplooo, we need those T-90 reports liiiike, as soooon as you can get them to us. Okay Sheppy? Yeahhhh." Shepard was a Heroic Character. He died saving the universe. To me, that was a good death, and a good ending.

Breathe scene not withstanding.

Great, you get a heroic death.  Because you think Shepard has to die

I get a Shepard who helps rebuild the galaxy afterwards.  Because i think Shepard had something to live for.

You see how wonderful options are?  

Heh.  I always like retorts that go, "I don't agree with you therefore you MUST be trolling!  Because *MY* opinion is so great that EVERYONE MUST like MY opinion and anyone who doesn't is a troll who shouldn't be listened to!"  Which, of course, is WHY people accuse others of trolling.  To belittle their opposing view, to convince others not to listen because, hey, he's just trolling and therefore isn't worthy of attention.  "Pay no attention to him!  Just listen to ME!  ME ME ME MEEEE!"  Such a narrow and closed minded approach to life.

Options are a wonderful thing.  But this isn't just a game, it's a story.  BW decided on the direction they wanted to go with THEIR story.  You don't like it.  Oh well.  I don't like liverwurst.  So, I do what you do...I get something else.  The difference being, I don't call my tuna sandwich the MEHEM Liverwurst sandwich.  I call it a Tuna sandwich.  
<blink>  I had a point there, but I've lost it.....

Here is the bottom line.  THIS is the story that we got.  We're allowed to make some choices which reflect upon our Shepard's character.  People, for some reason, seem to think the ability to make decisions means they should make ALL the decisions; as if they were playing a God instead of a man.   Oh well, guess they got disapointed. 

Something that you said I find ludicrous.  You say Shepard has something to live for.  What an inane, asinine comment!  Of COURSE he has something to live for!  ALL the characters in the game do.  Heck, the nameless Cerberus soldier you splatter without a second thought would have had something to live for.  That is kind of sorta the POINT.  Shep has so freaking MUCH to live for.  And yet...he dies.  Not because I wanted him to have a 'heroic death'.  But because people die.  That is what my Gandalf quote...you know, the 'trollllllll!!!' comment was supposed to impart.  Some who live should die; some who die should have lived.  Life and death is often outside of our control.  I have no doubt that Shepard would have wanted to live.  But that wasn't an option for him.  Really, what could he have done?  I've seen people say they wanted an option to run away with their LI and live out the rest of their days on some forgotten world.  Could they have put that option into the game?  Sure, they could have written and coded it.  BUT.  It would not have been SHEPARD.  HE was considered the best of humanity; his very character was one of self sacrifice.  There could have been an option where he and Jack become Pirates, letting the Galaxy burn while they pillaged the remains.  THAT wouldn't have been Shepard either.  There could have been an option where he roams the galaxy pretending to be something he wasn't, but that, to would not have been Shepard.  It would have been Conrad Verner.  The writers decided THIS was the direction Shepard would go in.  Just like Tolkein decided Frodo would carry the ring to Mt. Doom and get his finger bitten off by Gollum instead of just flying overhead on an Eagle and dropping it in.

It is the fact that Shepard has so much to live for, yet has to sacrifice himself to save the galaxy which makes his death heroic.  And, it's what makes this such a good story.  At least, in my opinion.  A lot of people don't like it; well, apparently BW wasn't writing the game for them, but instead for people like me.  So yeah, I'm ok with that.  I'll keep buying their games.  As opposed to....say...the Witcher.  Which I didn't like, and won't buy any more of.  The difference between you and I is I'm not going to demand the Witcher change to fit MY liking.  Instead, I just go buy games I think I'll enjoy.

[MegaSovereign]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

iakus wrote...

But yes, MEHEM is a crappy alternative, nothing more.  One Bioware denied us, so whiny modders did what Shepard never did:  ran away from reality.

Fixed that for ya.

Because in Reality, you always get an ABC choice to determine the fate of the entire galaxy?

In reality, not everything works out ideally. If I was living in the Mass Effect universe I'd be surprised that the Crucible worked at all. We meta-expected it to work because it's a game.

The way I see it, the ending would have been either exclusively dependent on your effort...or a Deus Ex style ending with different consequences and flavors of ethical ambiguity. Neither are objectively bad. I think Bioware was trying to combine the two concepts hence the EMS system. Bioware wanted an ending that features a big decision with different consequences, even if having high EMS softens this aspect.

I wish you guys would argue about something other than the tone of the ending, mainly because what you would have preferred is opinionated. There's no real room for debate on what would have been better and I can guarantee you that no one's mind is gonna change at the end of day.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 30 mai 2013 - 05:58 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

Are we really out here arguing over the merits of how strangerb*tches chose to mod their game. Forreal?