47 réponses à ce sujet

[Beaker_1]

I've been looking around for a fairly good few hours now at character builds, interested in what people do (as you do), specifically in rogue classes. Now, I cannot look at a page in rogues without seeing "CUN is a must max out CUN as oppose to DEX". I can respect why because of lethality making CUN the 50% damage alongside DEX, which is what I have done myself for coercion and lockpicking, so fair enough...

What I cannot grasp is, like the title says, why CUN over DEX? DEX has better hit chance and evasion chance no? So while backstabbing some unexpecting victim, I suddenly place my rogue in harms way, so surely being able to evade attacks while getting some of those crucial hits in is better than CUN's armour penetration?

Just a little side note, my PC isn't really specialised in either DW or bows, only has dual training, dual striking and melee archer to make it a little easier to use each, and thus DEX seems better for when I need to switch to my bow.

Any comments?

[Silensfurtim]

Because CUN gives important bonuses as well. Max CUN only applies to DW CUN Rogues.

CUN adds Armor Penetration
CUN adds damage to Exploit Weakness (bonus to backstab damage)
CUN adds damage to Tainted Blade (bonus to damage)
CUN adds bonus to Song of Courage (bonus to attack rate, damage and critical chance)
CUN adds bonus to lockpicking and coercion

CUN Rogue's lack of attack rating and defense can be offset by party buffs like Rally+Motivation, Heroic Offense, Song of Courage, Stone Aura. With those, a CUN Rogues attack rating can go upto 150 and its Defense rating can go upto 130. This makes CUN Rogue more of a party-based class rather than a Solo-based Rogue like the DEX Rogue.

For more info about Rogue Builds go to this thread:

http://social.biowar...66/index/223777

Here is an example of a CUN Rogue Build

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 17 janvier 2010 - 02:12 .

[Lord Phoebus]

Dex is:
+1 defense
+0.5 attack
+0.5 damage with bows and daggers
+0.5 physical resistance

Cunning is:
+1 damage with lethality (0.5 if you use daggers or bows)
+0.125 armor penetration
+1 to skill checks on Lockpicking and stealth
+0.2 backstab damage with exploit weakness
+0.1 attack with song of courage
+0.05 damage with song of courage
+0.1 critical chance with song of courage
+0.5 mental resistance

With lockpicking the highest check is 70, 30 cunning 4 ranks of device mastery (each rank is +10))
With stealth, IIRC a 40 is needed to hide from all enemies with 4 ranks of stealth.

Assuming that the dex rogue stops at a 30 cunning and gets another +6-11 from items, and both use daggers (the cunning rogue to max backstabs as well as poison, runes, etc.). The difference between the 80 dex/30 cunning and 30 dex/80 cunning rogues are

Dex:
+50 Defense
+20 attack
+25 physical resistance

Cunning:
+6.25 armor penetration
+10 backstab damage with exploit weakness
+2.5 damage
+5 critical chance
+25 mental resistance

By taking Bard instead of Duelist the cunning rogue is losing out on +10 attack and defense from dueling as well as pinpoint strikes (though the bard abilities help the party). But by going for dex instead of cunning the dex rogue has to fill the stealth and device mastery lines (though he can skip the lethality line) probably spending 3 more talents.

I prefer dex, but to each his own.

Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 17 janvier 2010 - 05:25 .

[dkjestrup]

Basically, if you aren't sure:



Solo - Dex

Party - Cun (with SoC)

[Beaker_1]

Ah so the key of a CUN rogue is choosing the right abilities, and the DEX is more free in that sense. I'd prefer using bows myself, and freedom of choice, so I still stand by my DEX rogue.

Thanks for the info... if only the manual would elaborate more...

Modifié par Beaker_1, 17 janvier 2010 - 04:24 .

[mosspit]

Unless you got a PC mod, try not to go all out DEX. Bows still use STR or CUN (Lethality) for the damage modifier.

[Silensfurtim]

DEX Rogue is easier to play too. You can forget worrying about attack and defense. Its auto-attack galore.

I find it less challenging though.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 17 janvier 2010 - 05:03 .

[Silensfurtim]

mosspit wrote...

Unless you got a PC mod, try not to go all out DEX. Bows still use STR or CUN (Lethality) for the damage modifier.

For Longbows, yes. 

Shortbows get full DEX bonus instead of shared STR and DEX.

[Beaker_1]

I usually get Lethality by default, simply because my STR is never upped (I really dont care for armour, any STR I get is from Mage Tower) and CUN is upped to around 30 for persuading, lockpicking and the like, so it makes sense.

[MprezdNZ]

I am in the cunning camp. With maxing cunning you can get away with spending less points in lockpicking, which means more skill points for other things. Plus as a DW rogue, backstab is everything. You get the better bonus from using cunning. But if you want a hybrid or archer, dex is a better option; although still nice to have cunning for lethality if you are using a longbow.

[BlackVader]

Silensfurtim wrote...

Shortbows get full DEX bonus instead of shared STR and DEX.

Sorry, but this is WRONG information. Sortbows get 50% dex and 50% str, just like longbows. Unless you use some kind of mod, of course.
And yes, I'm sure about it. Actually, I did some testing just yesterday.

As for Cun vs. Dex, you should also note that according to the missing manual flanking increases your attack score. A rogue with combat movement who is behind his taget get's up to +20 to attack, which is a HUGE bonus. So at least for backstabbing, a rogue doesn't really need as much attack as a warrior who fights face to face.

Modifié par BlackVader, 17 janvier 2010 - 08:59 .

[auxleyleonard]

20 attack means 20% difference in hit rate, this alone outweight damage bonus not to mention 50% improved evasion rate from 50 defense. Considered hitting elite boss with 50% rate and 70% rate, you'll notice such a big difference.

[Beaker_1]

auxleyleonard wrote...

20 attack means 20% difference in hit rate, this alone outweight damage bonus not to mention 50% improved evasion rate from 50 defense. Considered hitting elite boss with 50% rate and 70% rate, you'll notice such a big difference.

I didnt think it was a literal percentage. When someone has, for instance, 150 defence... they evade 150% of attacks?
Or is that couteracted by the attack value; 100 attack against 150 defence gives 50% evade chance?

Also, shortbows... surely theres some use to one over a longbow? Besides firing faster because that is barely, if not at all, noticeable.

Modifié par Beaker_1, 17 janvier 2010 - 11:16 .

[Silensfurtim]

BlackVader wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

Shortbows get full DEX bonus instead of shared STR and DEX.

Sorry, but this is WRONG information. Sortbows get 50% dex and 50% str, just like longbows. Unless you use some kind of mod, of course.
And yes, I'm sure about it. Actually, I did some testing just yesterday.

so the info on the Missing Manual is wrong?

http://dragonage.gul...rity_hotfix_101

[Silensfurtim]

For a pure DEX Rogue I don't think backstabbing is an important tactic. With high attack and defense I would just rather go front line and auto-attack. Its just a waste of time going into backstab position and get mediocre backstab damage compared to full CUN Rogue. Or you could just go Dirty Fighting/Riposte and go Facestab.

A CUN Rogue needs to get to flanking position and take advantage of the +20 Attack/Flanking bonus. From there, he never misses anymore unless he faces an enemy with Shield Tactics/Shield Block talent. But if you have full party buffs (Heroic Offense, Rally+Motivation, Song of Courage, Stone Aura), attack rating isnt a problem anymore. 

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 17 janvier 2010 - 12:08 .

[Timortis]

Silensfurtim wrote...

so the info on the Missing Manual is wrong?

http://dragonage.gul...rity_hotfix_101

It's outdated. George's hotfix changes for shortbows were "experimental" and didn't make it into the 1.02 patch, the hotfix is no longer even on that site anymore.

[Timortis]

mosspit wrote...

Unless you got a PC mod, try not to go all out DEX. Bows still use STR or CUN (Lethality) for the damage modifier.

This is also wrong. Bows, like daggers use 50/50 str/dex so there's no difference whether you have 80 dex and 30 str (or cun) or 30 dex and 80 str in terms of damage, though unlike with melee weapons, str doesn't increase attack for bows afaik.

[Mr_Raider]

I prefer too stack dex for NPC rogues, who are not going to controlled most of the time. It's easier to get their defense high and let them auto attack, since I can't be bothered positioning them.

[mosspit]

Timortis wrote...

mosspit wrote...

Unless you got a PC mod, try not to go all out DEX. Bows still use STR or CUN (Lethality) for the damage modifier.

This is also wrong. Bows, like daggers use 50/50 str/dex so there's no difference whether you have 80 dex and 30 str (or cun) or 30 dex and 80 str in terms of damage, though unlike with melee weapons, str doesn't increase attack for bows afaik.

Ok i have to be clear on this. Do you mean for Both Shortbows and Longbows? At the point of time of my post, I was referring to in fact both Long Bows and Short Bows.

[Timortis]

Both, they are both 50/50 as of now. In the pre 1.02 patch hotfix, George had changed Shortbows to be 100% dex, but that no longer applies.

The only advantage for a Rogue, of going CUN over DEX for a bow would be for greater bonus from bard song. However, archers have a much bigger problem with attack rating than melee characters, so in my personal experience going CUN with an archer Rogue would be really really bad, unless you like to miss a lot.

Modifié par Timortis, 17 janvier 2010 - 01:57 .

[mosspit]

Wow Thanks! I mean the thing about this game is how inconsistent the tooltips are.

[Tryst]

Don't forget the +0.2 damage per point of cunning for Tainted Blade. In your example that's an additional 10 damage for a cunning rogue. And I've found that I really don't miss that often with a cunning rogue, even on bosses. Did 5 runs on the archdemon, lowest hit % was 92, highest was 98. Flanking, Rally, and heroic offense make life easy. And before we get into how the mage loses out on a spell, my mage typically ends up waiting on cooldowns anyways. On the other hand, I wouldn't really count the 5% crit (I thought it was a 0.1 modifier, not 0.05 for crit) from Song of Courage for the cunning rogue, since he should be backstabbing some 90% of the time. Of course, those bonuses do get applied to each rogue and warrior in your group, so for someone who runs one mage, that's an additional 5 damage, 10% crit , and 20 attack for the group. And I believe that is where a cunning rogue really shines.

[Beaker_1]

Ive decided to go off backstabbing for a while now, simple reason, despite any taunt or threaten from any other character, anyone getting backstabbed will turn around and kill the rogue. All i can do is stun them for a couple seconds and then stealth away (if its available) and it usually ends up in rogue death. Its turning into more of a hassle than use.



Ive just turned into using ranger now, keeping 3 rangers back and using their pets is so far an absolute winner for myself, especially with every rogue maxed in Dex. Should the battle go ill, I can still head in with DW daggers... this is why I choose Dex over Cun, versatility.

[Hahren]

Beaker_1 wrote...

auxleyleonard wrote...

20 attack means 20% difference in hit rate, this alone outweight damage bonus not to mention 50% improved evasion rate from 50 defense. Considered hitting elite boss with 50% rate and 70% rate, you'll notice such a big difference.

I didnt think it was a literal percentage. When someone has, for instance, 150 defence... they evade 150% of attacks?
Or is that couteracted by the attack value; 100 attack against 150 defence gives 50% evade chance?

Also, shortbows... surely theres some use to one over a longbow? Besides firing faster because that is barely, if not at all, noticeable.

The game compares attack vs defense then adds about 50 to find a percentage of success.

[LightSabres]

With a Cunning Rogue enemies don't live long enough to turn around and hit me before they get a bad case of dead.



I find that setting Alistair to "auto-taunt" short range enemies keeps everything off my rogues back....