47 réponses à ce sujet

[Beaker_1]

Hahren wrote...

The game compares attack vs defense then adds about 50 to find a percentage of success.

Thanks for clearing that up for me

I preiously set my warrior tactic to "if hero under attack by melee, activate taunt", and seeing as my hero would be the other side of the same enemy, all that should happen is they turn right back around and try to kill the warrior... all I got was a dead rogue and an untouched warrior. I even tried it manually, and still no effect.

Its a similar problem to the supposed "enemies target higher armoured members first"... what happens is morrigan the healer dies because she has no armour and my high armour guy doesnt need healing! I swear this game has something against me!

[Hahren]

Beaker_1 wrote...

Hahren wrote...

The game compares attack vs defense then adds about 50 to find a percentage of success.

Thanks for clearing that up for me

I preiously set my warrior tactic to "if hero under attack by melee, activate taunt", and seeing as my hero would be the other side of the same enemy, all that should happen is they turn right back around and try to kill the warrior... all I got was a dead rogue and an untouched warrior. I even tried it manually, and still no effect.

Its a similar problem to the supposed "enemies target higher armoured members first"... what happens is morrigan the healer dies because she has no armour and my high armour guy doesnt need healing! I swear this game has something against me!

Any character that out damages your tank will generate threat. If you want to start off combat guns blazing. I would recommend having Alistair taunt as a proactive ability vs a reactive one. It should buy you a couple seconds early in the combat to unload some damage in relative safety. Once the taunt wears off though who ever caused the most damage will become the new target unless it is being hit with a threaten enhanced attack (which sadly for weapon & shield is single target).

What I try to do is have Alistair run in first, and round targets up. He taunts. I move a rogue to flank, and let him auto stab to victory. I switch to a mage, and drop a spell for the situation (i often try for cone of cold first). If I really need more crowd control I'll have Leliana use Scatter shot, or Sten use 2h sweep depends on who is in my group.

Doing that tends to put my group in less danger, but you need to watch Alistair's health in first few seconds. I have one of his scripts set for less than 50% health drink a health potion. I can also do a quick spot heal with a mage if needed.

A couple more things about the game's aggro mechanic. Enemies will aggro the person with the heaviest armor in the initial phase of combat, but they still aggro based on proximity. So if your rogue is first in expect to get threat. If your rogue runs in right after Alistair, and drops sweep/whirlwind expect to get threat. If Alistair has threaten active, and you target the same target you should be able to flank without much trouble. You can still pull aggro off him, but the target should also be close to dead (a specialized backstab rogue does a lot of damage late game).

[LightSabres]

Another thing that might help your aggro management - activating Stealth erases all agro on the character. Every fight activating stealth first while Alistair taunts is very effective.

[mad_cat_prime]

For me, I have a balance of CUN and DEX. I generally apply points every 5 levels (giving me 15 points), and out of that, CUN and DEX get 4 points a piece. This is my PC, and she goes right up into the action. After reading this post, I see her as the ability to defend herself, and able to strike decent damage. But she is a master of neither. I am using Sten to Agro, and was using Alister to do Shield Bash (which is awesome for my Rogue) and Agro as well.

[Beaker_1]

Hahren wrote...

...who ever caused the most damage will become the new target..

Big part of the game mechanics I had not yet discovered, that will probably explain half of my  moments!

[Beaker_1]

LightSabres wrote...

Another thing that might help your aggro management - activating Stealth erases all agro on the character. Every fight activating stealth first while Alistair taunts is very effective.

I would udually enter the fight stealthed to avoid any random attacks while getting into a decent position, so usually I'd have to sit around for 10 seconds before I could pull out with that one... usually ending in death

Tis about learnng from your mistakes... Im sure by the time I get round to doing a backstabber I'll be walking on easy street now! (on nightmare...)

[auxleyleonard]

In short, balancing both cun and dex while managing good aggros will produce the best damage and dumping dex is a also good option if you want your rogue to share some tanking, which is brilliant if your main dd is spike mage.

[auxleyleonard]

Beaker_1 wrote...

auxleyleonard wrote...

20 attack means 20% difference in hit rate, this alone outweight damage bonus not to mention 50% improved evasion rate from 50 defense. Considered hitting elite boss with 50% rate and 70% rate, you'll notice such a big difference.

I didnt think it was a literal percentage. When someone has, for instance, 150 defence... they evade 150% of attacks?
Or is that couteracted by the attack value; 100 attack against 150 defence gives 50% evade chance?

Also, shortbows... surely theres some use to one over a longbow? Besides firing faster because that is barely, if not at all, noticeable.

The rough formula is
Attack - Defense +X = Hit rate in %

So if you have 1 more attack, you will get 1% increased chance to hit. 

[Lord Phoebus]

Trystz wrote...

Don't forget the +0.2 damage per point of cunning for Tainted Blade. In your example that's an additional 10 damage for a cunning rogue.

I didn't count it because you need to buy Warden's Keep to use it and not everyone will buy that (I believe the trend on DLC is about 20% of players buy it).

 
Flanking, Rally, and heroic offense make life easy. And before we get into how the mage loses out on a spell, my mage typically ends up waiting on cooldowns anyways.

My concern is having to spend a talent point on heroic offense instead of a more useful spell like walking bomb.  If it's Wynne, then it's no problem since she already has it, but I wouldn't give that spell to another caster unless I was making a melee AW.

On the other hand, I wouldn't really count the 5% crit (I thought it was a 0.1 modifier, not 0.05 for crit) from Song of Courage for the cunning rogue, since he should be backstabbing some 90% of the time.

Yeah I fixed the 5%.

Of course, those bonuses do get applied to each rogue and warrior in your group, so for someone who runs one mage, that's an additional 5 damage, 10% crit , and 20 attack for the group. And I believe that is where a cunning rogue really shines.

I assume you mean you run two bards and a champion?  In that case the bonuses work a bit differently since you need to include the full formulas for the song bonuses not just how they scale with cunning (it works out in your favor).  If I have a warrior I spec him as a champion as well (+10 to attack and defense BTW).  Though the effectiveness of that technique is really dependent on your party make up and how many mages you run.

[JPCamden]

Isn't CUN used for Bow Rogues too? Or are they still pretty much nerfed on 360?

[stillnotking]

Beaker_1 wrote...

Ive decided to go off backstabbing for a while now, simple reason, despite any taunt or threaten from any other character, anyone getting backstabbed will turn around and kill the rogue.

Something is wrong, because that shouldn't be happening.  White enemies who are Taunted should basically never get off the tank, no matter what (because by the time you've done enough damage to pull threat, they will be dead).  On my CUN backstabbing rogue I only managed to pull threat on bosses, or rarely on elites.  If it does happen, then a quick Stealth wipes your aggro.

Maybe the enemies aren't quite in range of Taunt?  Its radius is fairly short, maybe 3x melee range.

Threaten is almost useless.  It's a very minor effect and applies only to targets the tank strikes in melee.  Don't bother with it.

Modifié par stillnotking, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:27 .

[Haplose]

Silensfurtim wrote...
For a pure DEX Rogue I don't think backstabbing is an important tactic. With high attack and defense I would just rather go front line and auto-attack. Its just a waste of time going into backstab position and get mediocre backstab damage compared to full CUN Rogue. Or you could just go Dirty Fighting/Riposte and go Facestab.

Backstabbing is still worth it for a Dex Rogue! I certainly wouldn't call their backstab damage "mediocre". I mean it's about 20% less then a Cunning Rogue's, 30% less at best (probably unlikely, especially considering that most builds are actually hybrids). That's still a lot of damage and it would be a shame not to exploit it!
That being said, Facestabbing with Coup-de-GRace and Dirty Fighting/Riposte or auto-criticalling through Pinpoint Strikes with Dual Striking active are certainly also very viable, when these Talents are not on cooldown/you have spare Stamina.

To the OP:
I don't understand your aggro problems using Taunt. Having Alistair use Taunt always made the enemies stick to him like glued - and nicely exposing their backs for some backstabbing action. You must be doing something wrong.
Always make sure you control your tank when you enter a battle and have him enter the enemy visual radius first. Run him into the middle of the enemy forces, to have a maximum number of enemies in Taunt range and... Taunt. This may still leave some problematic archers/mages/other melees out of Taunt range, but it should be nothing you couldn't handle. The Taunted foes should be safe for backstabbing for sure.

[killpillz09]

There is an AI glitch where a enemy might get the command: Attack [Insert Name Of NPC/Character Here Other Than Your Tank], if you use taunt while they have that command, they MIGHT store that taunt and complete the Attack command then go to your tank because of the stored taunt, or the enemy might just ignore the taunt and continue attacking the person it was told to from the start. as soon as they are on your tank the only thing to pull them off would be someone with higher threat [might not be the real name for the mechanic in the game] because they have stronger armour or have dealt more damage to that enemy. At the biggest distance possible with your ranged/mage units you might only pull one of the enemies, but sometimes you may pull a few. Other players would be able to answer this better.



*Major Note*

On the consoles i think the dex bug has not been fixed. This has been fixed in Patch (V1.01?) V1.02. In the PatchNotes in the docs file (C:\\Program Files\\Dragon Age\\docs on vista if you did default and have the patch installed) it sais: Many of the fixes affecting balance, gameplay, or plot scripting are already included in the Xbox 360 and PlayStation®3 versions of Dragon Age: Origins.

[Giles_Warrior_Champion]

I am currently trying to decide which i want my rogue to be...backstabbing is such awesome dps as a cunning rogue but then i feel retarded because your guy does that uber gay attack motion and you only ever use one weapon and it makes me wonder why i would even want to have a 2nd dagger....that and it can get tiresome haveing to make sure that you are always behind your target or you won't hit it for your life

Modifié par Giles_Warrior_Champion, 20 janvier 2010 - 12:01 .

[stillnotking]

Giles_Warrior_Champion wrote...

I am currently trying to decide which i want my rogue to be...backstabbing is such awesome dps as a cunning rogue but then i feel retarded because your guy does that uber gay attack motion and you only ever use one weapon and it makes me wonder why i would even want to have a 2nd dagger....that and it can get tiresome haveing to make sure that you are always behind your target or you won't hit it for your life

The animation looks like you're only using one weapon, but you are actually using both (alternating).

All rogues should be backstabbing at all times, unless they are soloing.  Doesn't matter whether you are DEX or CUN in that respect.

[Giles_Warrior_Champion]

stillnotking wrote...

Giles_Warrior_Champion wrote...

I am currently trying to decide which i want my rogue to be...backstabbing is such awesome dps as a cunning rogue but then i feel retarded because your guy does that uber gay attack motion and you only ever use one weapon and it makes me wonder why i would even want to have a 2nd dagger....that and it can get tiresome haveing to make sure that you are always behind your target or you won't hit it for your life

The animation looks like you're only using one weapon, but you are actually using both (alternating).

All rogues should be backstabbing at all times, unless they are soloing.  Doesn't matter whether you are DEX or CUN in that respect.

Oh really? they should get a new animation then lol...its always that over your head sideways stab with your right arm but alright that makes it a little better...just wish it would look better.

Ya i wasn't saying that dex didn't have to backstab it just don't matter AS much. Like for example early levels you go in and wail on guys but don't yet have the dps to kill but you out dps your tank and then pull the agro on to you at which point im no longer backstabbing and as as cun  i can't hit **** and all i see is miss miss miss miss while with dex you can still hit them at least

[JosieJ]

Oy, now I'm confused (again)! For the unpatched, unmodded game, is a DEX longbow archer rogue PC viable, or should one stick with a CUN-based archer, or use shortbows?

Not that I don't intend to try it out anyway, but I'd like to know beforehand the best way to go about it.

Modifié par JosieJ, 20 janvier 2010 - 05:09 .

[sethroskull79]

My archer now level 15 does about 37.7 damage. he has about 50 dex and 41 or so cunning. (not exactly sure cause I am not home) He has 97 Defense and 97 attack. He hits almost everytime, and with haste his attack goes up to about 50. I did 450 with arrow of slaying. So you can make an archer viable. Just go DEX and CUN to be safe. I stopped STR at 27. I pumped a few into it before I had lethality.

[Silensfurtim]

Giles_Warrior_Champion wrote...
 as cun  i can't hit **** and all i see is miss miss miss miss while with dex you can still hit them at least

youre doing it wrong. as a CUN Rogue your primary attack is to backstab. if youre make it frontliner, its lack of attack will definitely miss alot. take advantage of +20 attack/backstab/flanking bonus.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 20 janvier 2010 - 06:24 .

[Yaskaleh]

I might be gimping myself but i keep str, dex and cun at about the same amount. rogue dual-wielding sword and axe, I feel it suits my playstyle the most. I backstab them quite hard and I can easily go face to face with most enemies. With the dificulty nerf the hardest setting is easier than the old normal .

[MisterBellyButtonMan]

You want to keep dirty fighting off cooldown if you are playing the DW/BS style. As tempting as it is to use it is better to use it when the tank loses aggro and circle back around. Also, prone enemies seem to take BS damage, but I haven't verified this. I am only going by what I see on my screen. Does anyone know if prone enemies are considered flanked?

[Haplose]

Yaskaleh wrote...

I might be gimping myself but i keep str, dex and cun at about the same amount. rogue dual-wielding sword and axe, I feel it suits my playstyle the most. I backstab them quite hard and I can easily go face to face with most enemies. With the dificulty nerf the hardest setting is easier than the old normal .

That may actually be the best balance for  a pleasant gameplay.

[Haplose]

MisterBellyButtonMan wrote...

You want to keep dirty fighting off cooldown if you are playing the DW/BS style. As tempting as it is to use it is better to use it when the tank loses aggro and circle back around. Also, prone enemies seem to take BS damage, but I haven't verified this. I am only going by what I see on my screen. Does anyone know if prone enemies are considered flanked?

I also noticed backstabs vs knocked-down opponents.