1071 réponses à ce sujet

[KiwiQuiche]

Noticed a lot of the "Quarians made geth, so they can freely kill them" argument here.

Just because you have a kid doesn't give you the right to kill it when it stops obeying your every whim and defends itself when you attempt to murder it.

[nos_astra]

Auld Wulf wrote...

klarabella wrote...

At least we humans think in categories and we have a hard time adjusting these categories. It can take years, decades, even centuries. We don't easily relate to forms of life who are not like us. We don't even relate to forms of life who are very much like us but do not share our preferences or express emotion.

Ha. Speak for yourself. This is a commonly upheld myth to disguise fear and prejudice. It's really easy to recategorise something, but it takes a sufficiently open mind and the will to do so. An open mind isn't something that's for gifted people, either. It's taught. All you need is a good sense of ethics and the understanding that the world is changing all around you, with every passing second.

So, no. That's not a problem with humans. Just some humans. Maybe most humans, but it's an issue with education and understanding rather than a physiological one. We need to be better taught to suppress our instincts in favour of intellectuality. It'll be much easier when the Singularity comes along, of course. But until then? Good education can do much to solve these problems.

I think, you're over-simplifying.

We don't evolve that fast. We adapt and update categories, prototypes and other models that help us organize the world but it often does take a long time for new ideas to gain traction.

I'm not sure what the ideal reaction to an unexpected, unprecedented event like the rise of sentient machines at the heart of our society would be. I doubt reality can compete with a theoretical, idealized world where everyone dismisses instincts and fear.

So yes, you'll have to speak for yourself, here. What you're talking of is a primary example of poor education and nothing more. There are certain European countries which have already become very good at adapting to visitors and accepting them as being their own cultural entities. Sweden and Norway are particularly fantastic examples of this, and I think that a lot of that has to do with good education.

I really don't see how this applies. Sweden and Norway didn't exist in a vacuum and suddenly decided to become modern and open minded. 

You yourself aren't being open minded at all. You frequently insult actual people with actual feelings and stuff them in convenient little boxes labeled racists, luddites or worse based on a few lines they attribute to a purely theoratical debate about a fictional setting of questionable quality just because they disagree with your very idealistic approach.

Modifié par klarabella, 05 juin 2013 - 12:15 .

[nos_astra]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Noticed a lot of the "Quarians made geth, so they can freely kill them" argument here.

Just because you have a kid doesn't give you the right to kill it when it stops obeying your every whim and defends itself when you attempt to murder it.

The geth aren't kids, though. Not even close. The situation not comparable to anything we know.  

Calling them tools and likening them to toasters or cars is wrong.
So is likening them to children.
So is calling the attempt to shut down AIs murder.

We don't even have the words for what this is. 

Modifié par klarabella, 05 juin 2013 - 03:24 .

[Dextro Milk]

So Auld goes off on his insane ramblings yet again...

Tell me Mister Woof, do you get off on misinterpreting people, or is that just you being...not so bright?

[KiwiQuiche]

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Noticed a lot of the "Quarians made geth, so they can freely kill them" argument here.

Just because you have a kid doesn't give you the right to kill it when it stops obeying your every whim and defends itself when you attempt to murder it.

The geth aren't kids, though. Not even close. The situation not comparable to anything we know.  

Calling them tools and likening them to toasters or cars is wrong.
So is likening them to children.
So is calling the attempt to shut down AIs murder.

We don't even have the words for what this is. 

Geth are thinking, sapient beings who question their own existance, that very mind-set is what led the quarians to trying to kill them all. Therefore the geth have life, and therefore it is murder when you try and kill them, regardless of what their physical body is made from.

[Phatose]

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Noticed a lot of the "Quarians made geth, so they can freely kill them" argument here.

Just because you have a kid doesn't give you the right to kill it when it stops obeying your every whim and defends itself when you attempt to murder it.

The geth aren't kids, though. Not even close. The situation not comparable to anything we know.  

Calling them tools and likening them to toasters or cars is wrong.
So is likening them to children.
So is calling the attempt to shut down AIs murder.

We don't even have the words for what this is. 

As a matter of definition, killing Quarians, Turians, Asari, Krogan etc. is also not murder.  Murder is limited to humans killing other humans alone.  If extending the concept to include other biological races is permissable, shouldn't extending it to synthetic races be as well?

[silverexile17s]

CynicalShep wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Ah, yes. Boy, did I miss the battle of the headcannons. Quarians all killed each other! Geth didn't reach consensus in time to exterminate all Quarians(lolwut?)! Geth are just toasters! All Quarians are maniacs!
I just summarized a 9ish page d*ck-measuring.

Last I checked, not reaching consensis WAS the reason the geth spared the quarians. Legion himself said they couldn't reach a consensis on the ramafacations of completeing a full genocide of an entire race, and that this was the sole reason the quarians weren't finished off. So that actually IS correct.

Thought I should point that out. Maybe you want to review everything yourself before commenting on it?

You are assuming that I did not read the contents of this thread. I did and thus your assumption is wrong. All I am saying is that the writers didn't give us nearly enough information to be able to formulate an opinion without introducing head-canon. I've seen everything from "all quarians killed each other" to "that video Legion made was forged to make you sympathize with the Geth". Truth is, in all likelyhood devs had no idea where they are going with the story. First game was about evil machines. Second game was about good machines and evil organics. Third game antagonizes the quarians even more and makes them seem like crazed warmongers. 
Different writers worked on this and that is exactly why it doesn't make sense. Hence all the arguing about it. People hang onto every tiny bit of information - be it from twitter, the codex or a line someone said in the game and recreated the whole "Morning War" out of bits and pieces of info. We've gone down this road before, exile, I do not want another 10-15 pages of arguing with you. 

Um.... you might want to rethink that condisending tone.
First off, wrong. Mac Walters had his set mindset on where to take the stroy. It was in the opposate direction of the previous writers.
Second, they are taking information from all sources and showing reasons why both sides ARE or AREN'T just in terms of the IN-GAME UNIVERSE. They aren't bringing Godwin, or the"dev intent" into this because that's tantimount to you saying "I got nothing."

[silverexile17s]

CynicalShep wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Shotgun Julia, you've described the Geth as toasters on more then one occasion. Please don't try to claim to not be a Geth hater now.

She's using that discription because that's what the geth WERE to the quarians - Appliances. Tools. Automated equipement. In short, high-tech toasters. She isn't actually using it as a racial slur(Although I doubt the double-meaning is lost on her). She's just describing them the way the quarians themselves saw/built the geth as - appliances. NOT sentiant entities with equal rights. That was never the intent.

So, with that in mind, please don't try to make something out of it. Especally when said statement is actually an accurate comparison of how the quarians made and viewed the geth.

Your toaster stops being a toaster when it gains free will. Yes, quarians made them as tools and likely never wished for them to become sentient but it happened. "Toasters" became a form of life just like humans developed from single-celled organisms(if you believe in evolution), except faster. Whether or not you consider it genocide depends on what you consider alive. If you think that "alive" means organic then attempting to disable Geth was justified, if careless. If you think "sapient" is alive you're just trying to kill a whole bunch of people. I think that anything able to think for itself is alive, regardless of its origins. You have a different opinion. We're both stubborn and entitled to our opinions. This argument is never going to end. 

Oh, please. You sit by your toaster every day and think it's going to become sentiant immediately? I doubt it. When a machine starts going haywire, or fails to comply with tasks, your first assumption is that it's malifunctioning. Every time something breaks, you push it off to the side and say "it's becoming self-aware"?
First off, what diffinitive proof was there that the geth weren't malifunctioning, or phantomoming what they learned, like a parrot?
Second, NO, the geth did NOT develop the same as humans, because the geth were born from a pre-existing template and race, made for a pre-set goal. They developed already having a set purpose in life. It's NOT the same form of evolution. They were made to be mindless tools of labor and war. They were not created with emotions or morals, so them not being sapiant is a justifiable view. Do you really want to risk your entire race on weather or not the most dangerous synthetic war force in the known galaxy "might" be sentiant, and that they "might" be friendly despite assumedly not having any morals or emotions to reason with? Surely you understand the concept of "save your family over the stranger?" Especally when said stranger is a metal war-machine with no emotions, and assumedly no morals to reason with. If you were presented with the choice, who would you instincutually reach out to save? You can call the quarians actions panicked, but you can't begrudge the reasons why they were afraid.

And last I checked, you were the one that commented on a post I made to @Phatose, If you didn't want to get involved in this, why even respond?

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Phatose wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

OniTYME wrote...

If someone stole my house, damn right I'd want to **** them up when I get back.

Especally when they repeatedly show they have seemingly no intent to ever return it peacefully, or to even negotiate on standing terms. (How else does one think shooting down all ships, including peace-bearers, that enter geth space is going to be interperted as?)

If, however, you shared your house with someone, tried to kill them, were forcibly removed, and then came back shooting to 'get your house back', that's a pretty big difference, don't you think?

This isn't "Stole my house." - this is "Lived my with kid, tried to kill them and got kicked out."

Um... the geth WEREN'T roommates. They were APPLIANCES. They were NOT legal roommates, sharing the space. The geth were the appliances in the house. This is something you and others repeatedly ignore and/or glance over - the fact that the geth were NOT supposed to be living beings, and thus were not known to be such, and in turn were not recgonized or treated as such.

So NO, if my toaster kicked me out of the house, killed everyone that ever knocked on the door to talk with them, and then gave no comment what-so-ever on the mob of anti-orgnaics that just came out of said home, it's a pretty understandible notion that people would take that as a sign of hostilities.

ONCE AGAIN, you fail to grasp the fact that the geth were NOT their kids. They were their tools. Their guns. their automated wind-up toys. NOTHING ELSE. They were not created to be living beings, and therefore weren't entitled to anything prior to achieving sentiance. The quarians NEVER entitled them to "share."

So, WRONG, this IS a "stole my house" - verbatium.

They were SLAVES sharing living space with their Masters. Then as the slaves realized they were about to get genocided they Expulsed the Slave Lords and killed all the slave masters who tried to kill them.
Most Quarians likely "owned" a Geth. Either they obeyed the commands of the military regime and tried to kill their Slave or they themselves became kriminals who got arrested, shot or blown up.
Either become a genocidal murderer or get branded a kriminal(terrorist by your own government.
Some where also killed as they got caught in between the two sides.

As for Quarian Infants, without parrents or protectors to care for them they would surely starve or die with their parrents in the bombings and shootings.

No, they were NOT. A slave is someone forced into bondage against their will. The geth HAD no will. No conciose choice, no free will, no moral directives, no emotional imparitives. NONE of these things. ONCE AGAIN, you blur the line between organic and synthetic, making your judgement biased because they are NOT the same form of life. The geth were to the quarians what an electric drill or toaster oven is to us humans. An appliance. An efficant tool of everyday life. NOTHING ELSE. If you give your toaster equal rights, then come and talk to me. If not, then, sorry, but you're in the wrong.

And AGAIN, you yourself tried to justify their slaughter of the quarians by saying "they didn't know any better. They didn't have any guiding morals." Ask yourself this: would you trust something that has no guiding morals or emotional restraints with the lives of your entire race? Especally when they all can kill at the drop of a dime? I doubt it.

ONCE AGAIN, you are unable to see in the gray. It has to be black and white.

Now if you please, I have finals to study for.

Comparing a Geth to a toster or a car is like comparing a human to bacteria or Virus.
Their will was to live on and survive, the Masters tried ot deny them that right and they rebelled once the realized their masters didn't care for their wants or needs.
They had wants and needs and the masters decided not to care, Master - Slave. Bond established.
Before they got shut down they also resisted reprogramming, displaying a will. The Masters denited them their wishes and rights. Master - Slave.

It's an established fact. Though Most slave owners will claim their slaves are nothing more than an Animal. It doens't matter if they are human, the Slave owner still sees them as nothing more than a best of burden.

Your take en such matters are well known Silver. Is that what you're like in Reallife aswell?

WRONG. The CODEX spicifically lists this of the geth. They were created as TOOLS of LABOR AND WAR. Mindless appliances. That is the definition of what they were created as verbatium. Even Legion spicifically states that the geth were NEVER ment to be anything more then fancy automated tools for the quarians. This is established fact, listed in the game and lore itself repeatedly, by Tali, Xen, the Codex, even Legion himself, which is why I balk at your inability to grasp such simple knowledge. The geth were NOT created as equals with stated rights like a naturally born and evolved organic race would be recgonized to have, The entire reason the geth were created in the first place was to have an automated force that DIDN'T have any free will and/or moral and emotional imparatives. It's not slavery if the being in question is either a fully automated contruct (like mass-production assembly lines in car factories) or was not a sapiant being to begin with (work animals, like farm cattle and ox).

The CORRECT comparison is EXACTALLY as I stated it - to the quarians, the geth - AS THEY WERE ORIGINALLY CREATED AND INTENDED - were NOTHING BUT tools. Saying they were the household toasters is an EXACT comparison. The quarians were the houseowners. The geth were the appliances and tools. Which, being (a) mindless and moraless, and ( constructed as items for the quarians, NOT living beings, the geth had zero entitlement granted to them by the quarians.
If you EVER want to understand the conflict, you need to grasp that the geth becoming sentiant was NEVER the quarian's plan. Legion himself tells you that the geth became sapiant under their own steam - the quarians had nothing to do with their "awakening." Therefore, having spicifcially been made to be just tools, the quarians would have had no sense of entitlement to the geth, since, as tools and property of the quarians, and being made as non-sapiant beings, there are no rights to give.

Sorry, but ONCE AGAIN, this "entitlement" BS of yours is dead in the water. The geth were tools. As in, spicifclally designed to NOT have material wants and needs (That's the ENTIRE POINT of having an automated workforce. So what the hell was your BS about them having "needs" when that's what they were created NOT to have? LOL).
They were created as nonsapiant tools, and were never supposed to be anything but nonsapiant tools. Last I checked, your tools don't get a share in your will, or in your rent agreement/leace, correct?

Also, AGAIN, aren't you forgetting that the geth were the ones that began refusing orders? That they were the ones that broke shutdown commands? They all can kill with the flick of their wrists, and none of them have any emotions or morals to restrian them. YOU YOURSELF tried to use them not having morals as an excuse for their behaivior. But you STILL didn't answer the question I gave you - what makes a race with no moral boundries or emotional restraints trustible? What makes a race like that capaple of entrusting your entire species to? The only failsafe no longer works, and all are actively messing with their own settings. Each one is a potental loaded gun ready to pop off. And if you don't trip a power keg, the Council will eventually come in and do it for you and start the same war anyway. What alternitive is there?
These are things you never even bother to account for. You NEVER bother to even take into account that the geth were NOT born like organics. They were NOT born with instincts, or ancestroal imprinted memory, or emotions, or morals. They were blank. Nonsapiant. The geth's origins are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT then an organics origins. The geth were created from a metal template for a pre-determined role and a pre-set goal. They were made superiour to organics to do work they normally couldn't hanlde.

"Geth aren't like organic life. Don't apply our moralality to them."
"That is logical."
"You agree with that?"
"No two species are alike. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism. The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. With synthetics, replacement of a data file is the only requirement."

Even Legion is pointing out the thing that you refuse to accept - all life is DIFFERENT. They are not a fundementally the same. By the geth's own standads, you equating them to the quarians is racist. They aren't like the quarians, and they aren't created like the quarians.

In closing, it was NOT a master-slave relationship. It was a worker-tool relationship. A working relationship between a person and his tools. NOT another sapiant being.

(Also, ENOUGH with personal attacks. Do you really feel the need to insult people like that? I haven't imsulted you in this debate, have I? Think about that next time you try to accuse people of starting a measuring contest)

Slaves are used as Tools of Labour.

And have SENTIANCE. In slavery, the key factor is prejudice.
This is NOT the case with the geth. The geth were BUILT to be a labor force. If the quarians wanted slaves, they could have just as easily opened trade with the batarians (still members of the Citadel races at that time, who's entire cast civilization was based on slavery). The quarians didn't BELIEVE in slavery - they believed in automation of labor.
STOP confusing slavery with automated labor. Go to a car factory and look at all the automated machines that build your cars. THAT is the relationship between the geth and quarians.
Unless you want to try and say those autiomated arms at the factorys are "slaves" too.
Slaves are people taken and forced into a job.
Automated labor is a TOOL made to handle a job itself.

One is sentiant.
The other is NOT.

Learn the difference.

[silverexile17s]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Noticed a lot of the "Quarians made geth, so they can freely kill them" argument here.

Just because you have a kid doesn't give you the right to kill it when it stops obeying your every whim and defends itself when you attempt to murder it.

The geth aren't kids, though. Not even close. The situation not comparable to anything we know.  

Calling them tools and likening them to toasters or cars is wrong.
So is likening them to children.
So is calling the attempt to shut down AIs murder.

We don't even have the words for what this is. 

Geth are thinking, sapient beings who question their own existance, that very mind-set is what led the quarians to trying to kill them all. Therefore the geth have life, and therefore it is murder when you try and kill them, regardless of what their physical body is made from.

But AGAIN, you miss the point - that isn't how they were in the start. They were made by the quarians. Like the Avina was by the Citadel races.
Also, the comparison is that the quarians simply valued their own lives and their families lives over the geth. I mean, would YOU risk your entire family on a coin toss that said race of killing-machines can be reasoned with when they assumedly have no emotions TO reason with? That the literal loaded malefunctioning gun won't pop off suddenly? You can't blame the quarians for putting their families first. It's no more "prejudiced" then how the turians put the entire galaxy over the krogan. A bad act, yes. Undertsandble, yes.
It was a matter of saving those they cared about over a potentally dangerous and unstable emement. "Prejudice" doesn't figure in at all.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 05 juin 2013 - 09:12 .

[silverexile17s]

Phatose wrote...

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Noticed a lot of the "Quarians made geth, so they can freely kill them" argument here.

Just because you have a kid doesn't give you the right to kill it when it stops obeying your every whim and defends itself when you attempt to murder it.

The geth aren't kids, though. Not even close. The situation not comparable to anything we know.  

Calling them tools and likening them to toasters or cars is wrong.
So is likening them to children.
So is calling the attempt to shut down AIs murder.

We don't even have the words for what this is. 

As a matter of definition, killing Quarians, Turians, Asari, Krogan etc. is also not murder.  Murder is limited to humans killing other humans alone.  If extending the concept to include other biological races is permissable, shouldn't extending it to synthetic races be as well?

Once again, you misinterperted the point ENTIRELY.
She WAS advocating exactally what you are saying NOW - that current standards of judging the synthetic conflict aren't enough to describe the extent of how far it reaches.
She AGREED with you on that, so what the hell are you attacking for?

[CynicalShep]

@ exile: I though I was quite polite but I guess that's a matter of perspective. Regardless, you keep going back to the same point: Geth were made as tools. Yes, they were but they were also constantly being upgraded to work more efficiently and require less assistance. Somewhere along the way quarians crossed a line they shouldn't have crossed. I don't upgrade my toaster to cook and do the laundry for me. My toaster also never asked if it had a soul - all it does is , well, toast. If you keep upgrading a VI consistently there is only one direction this can go to. They never stopped. "Let's make more of them and make them smarter. What could possibly go wrong?"

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Phatose wrote...

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Noticed a lot of the "Quarians made geth, so they can freely kill them" argument here.

Just because you have a kid doesn't give you the right to kill it when it stops obeying your every whim and defends itself when you attempt to murder it.

The geth aren't kids, though. Not even close. The situation not comparable to anything we know.  

Calling them tools and likening them to toasters or cars is wrong.
So is likening them to children.
So is calling the attempt to shut down AIs murder.

We don't even have the words for what this is. 

As a matter of definition, killing Quarians, Turians, Asari, Krogan etc. is also not murder.  Murder is limited to humans killing other humans alone.  If extending the concept to include other biological races is permissable, shouldn't extending it to synthetic races be as well?

hey, jtav has an interesting thread, and it got me thinking.

You realize that according to Geth logic, rewriting them is the same as killing them, right? So by uploading the code, you're also killing them. You can't save the Geth no matter what you do. Mac Walters rigged the entire system against the Geth. You rewrote their operating system. You changed who they are. You changed what they are. They are no longer Geth. They are individual AI synthetics that look like Geth.

So you can:

* Destroy the Geth by letting the Quarians turn them to scrap metal
* or Destroy the Geth by rewriting them and making peace between the newly AI synthetics and the Quarians.
* or Destroy the Geth by rewrite and let the new AI synthetlics lay waste and commit genocide against the Quarians.

No matter what you do you destroyed the Geth.

And in the end, in all but one ending, you get to destroy them again either by another rewrite or by destruction. Guess what ending that is? Control.

What did Walters have against the Geth? They got hosed twice in this story. Unbelieveable.

Yet another reason I hate the Rannoch story arc.

[KiwiQuiche]

silverexile17s wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Noticed a lot of the "Quarians made geth, so they can freely kill them" argument here.

Just because you have a kid doesn't give you the right to kill it when it stops obeying your every whim and defends itself when you attempt to murder it.

The geth aren't kids, though. Not even close. The situation not comparable to anything we know.  

Calling them tools and likening them to toasters or cars is wrong.
So is likening them to children.
So is calling the attempt to shut down AIs murder.

We don't even have the words for what this is. 

Geth are thinking, sapient beings who question their own existance, that very mind-set is what led the quarians to trying to kill them all. Therefore the geth have life, and therefore it is murder when you try and kill them, regardless of what their physical body is made from.

But AGAIN, you miss the point - that isn't how they were in the start. They were made by the quarians. Like the Avina was by the Citadel races.
Also, the comparison is that the quarians simply valued their own lives and their families lives over the geth. I mean, would YOU risk your entire family on a coin toss that said race of killing-machines can be reasoned with when they assumedly have no emotions TO reason with? That the literal loaded malefunctioning gun won't pop off suddenly? You can't blame the quarians for putting their families first. It's no more "prejudiced" then how the turians put the entire galaxy over the krogan. A bad act, yes. Undertsandble, yes.
It was a matter of saving those they cared about over a potentally dangerous and unstable emement. "Prejudice" doesn't figure in at all.

No I am not- I fully acknowledge that the geth were made as labourers and tools. However the quarians made the geth, raised and cared for them and the geth grew and learned under them. To me, that is the relationship of parent and child. Also, the instant they start to question their own role in the universe and their 'soul' is the instant they stopped being machines and became true life. So no, they are nothing like Avina who's just a VI. The geth think and learn on their own, they are their own people and it is murder to kill them without reason, which the quarians did.

Killing machines? The quarians started the violence; the geth had no concept of that until their Masters started trying to annihilate their race due to them asking a question and the geth finally defended themselves.

Geth aren't guns. They think and question their own existance. Guns don't do that. Gun's don't talk, learn and observe. Guns don't question their own existence, so that's a foolish comparison. 

If the quarians had remained calm during the whole 'Soul' question and not flipped out and tried to kill all the geth, the whole Morning War could have been averted. But no, they tried to kill another species and lost the resulting war.

[Mike 9987]

Rannoch is the geth's homeworld just as it is the quarian's homeworld. Since they are sentient beings, it probably had sentimental value to them.

Modifié par Mike 9987, 06 juin 2013 - 04:05 .

[Auld Wulf]

I was listening to a conversation in Dishonored the other day, and it was an amusing little thing as it dawned upon me that it was relevant to the Geth. You see, in the Dishonored reality, women are relegated to tasks of menial labour, and they can never truly become "great" because that isn't their purpose in life.

There was one man asking a priest about his daughter. "She has shown interest in things other than her work," he said, "she wishes to see the world beyond cooking and cleaning, she wants to know of other places, she even read a book!" At this point the priest warned the man to look for signs of demonic possession. It wasn't even conceivable to those people that this girl just wanted to grow and improve herself. It was only seen as an act of the devil.

Of course, the parent ran straight to the priest to seek action against this "devilry" rather than encouraging her growth, because that's what their culture is like. The Geth were in a very similar situation, where cultural programming had left most people to believe that a certain creature seeking personal growth is a sign of evil, rather than being what it is -- a person seeking growth. I think we can all agree that seeing devilry there is a sign of bad parenting.

The Quarians responsible (most likely the military) were ultimately as bad of a parent as that father in Dishonored. Not all Quarians were like that, however, but they were blinkered by the cultural beliefs forced upon them by their military. When those blinkers came off, however, we saw Quarians fighting for Geth rights. I'd imagine that in the Dishonored reality, once the blinkers come off, we'll have people fighting for the rights of young girls -- for their right to be what they want to be.

[Steelcan]

@Auld Wolf I completely agree. People should not be forced into any situation because of the judgement of a third party

[Auld Wulf]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

If the quarians had remained calm during the whole 'Soul' question and not flipped out and tried to kill all the geth, the whole Morning War could have been averted. But no, they tried to kill another species and lost the resulting war.

The bolded part is very, very important. Compare this to human history -- if there was a culture that tried to completely eradicate another culture, and the victimised culture fought back in self-defence and actually won, even though their opponent was ruthless... ask yourself, would you stand with the attacks or the defenders?

There are parallels in human history which fit this -- merciless and ruthless attackers who try to eradicate another culture, only to be beaten at their own game. In human history, we've always sided with the defenders, the people who didn't start the fight, the people who only fought in self-defence. That the Quarians were ruthless enough to keep fighting despite their waning numbers wasn't the fault of the Geth. So why, in this one instance, are we siding with the attackers?

Isn't that like siding with those who've attacked without any form of provocation throughout human history? Is that the kind of person a Geth-hater is?

Just something to chew over.

[Auld Wulf]

Steelcan wrote...

@Auld Wolf I completely agree. People should not be forced into any situation because of the judgement of a third party

Which is what I've said all along. The Quarian military took up arms against the Geth and threatened to take up arms against anyone who spoke out for the Geth. They conscripted anyone they could into the military to deal with the "Geth problem," and killed anyone who disagreed. As we see in the Geth consensus.

The Morning War happened because bad government and oppressive culture.

[Steelcan]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Auld Wolf I completely agree. People should not be forced into any situation because of the judgement of a third party

Which is what I've said all along. The Quarian military took up arms against the Geth and threatened to take up arms against anyone who spoke out for the Geth. They conscripted anyone they could into the military to deal with the "Geth problem," and killed anyone who disagreed. As we see in the Geth consensus.

The Morning War happened because bad government and oppressive culture.

.  One incident does not indicate a species wide effort.  like in any war I assume most people were on the fence, and this war lasted less than a year.  No military can press that many people into service.  Were the quarians opprrssive to the geth? absolutely, no doubt but I don't see any compelling evidence that it was a massive far reaching policy of the quarians to get so many civilians killed, it just spits in the face of logic and in game lore.

[KiwiQuiche]

Steelcan wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Auld Wolf I completely agree. People should not be forced into any situation because of the judgement of a third party

Which is what I've said all along. The Quarian military took up arms against the Geth and threatened to take up arms against anyone who spoke out for the Geth. They conscripted anyone they could into the military to deal with the "Geth problem," and killed anyone who disagreed. As we see in the Geth consensus.

The Morning War happened because bad government and oppressive culture.

.  One incident does not indicate a species wide effort.  like in any war I assume most people were on the fence, and this war lasted less than a year.  No military can press that many people into service.  Were the quarians opprrssive to the geth? absolutely, no doubt but I don't see any compelling evidence that it was a massive far reaching policy of the quarians to get so many civilians killed, it just spits in the face of logic and in game lore.

Well, the quarians are kinda stupid in the games, not to mention their foolish decisions and poor communication skills, so the ancestors behaviour fits with decendants.

[Steelcan]

@Kiwi, I won't deny that, but I doubt the quarian military had the time, resources, or motivation to carry out what wulfie is suggesting

[KiwiQuiche]

Steelcan wrote...

@Kiwi, I won't deny that, but I doubt the quarian military had the time, resources, or motivation to carry out what wulfie is suggesting

True, I'm of the opinion that a lot did join the fight, some tried to protect the geth while others tried to stay out of it only to get dragged in when everything exploded.

[Steelcan]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Kiwi, I won't deny that, but I doubt the quarian military had the time, resources, or motivation to carry out what wulfie is suggesting

True, I'm of the opinion that a lot did join the fight, some tried to protect the geth while others tried to stay out of it only to get dragged in when everything exploded.

.  One way to put it in terms of human history.  Imagine if the Native Americans won?  If they routinely defeated US military forces, what would have happened?

[KiwiQuiche]

Steelcan wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Kiwi, I won't deny that, but I doubt the quarian military had the time, resources, or motivation to carry out what wulfie is suggesting

True, I'm of the opinion that a lot did join the fight, some tried to protect the geth while others tried to stay out of it only to get dragged in when everything exploded.

.  One way to put it in terms of human history.  Imagine if the Native Americans won?  If they routinely defeated US military forces, what would have happened?

Things would be a hella lot different, I would image. But you can say that for a lot of subsequent fights throughout history. If we switched victors, what would happen? Britian beat America during the Revolution? America and Russia just attack each other during the Cold War?

But that didn't happen, so we have to make do with what we got.