1071 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Obviously America would win on all counts, we are just that great

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Kiwi, I won't deny that, but I doubt the quarian military had the time, resources, or motivation to carry out what wulfie is suggesting

True, I'm of the opinion that a lot did join the fight, some tried to protect the geth while others tried to stay out of it only to get dragged in when everything exploded.

.  One way to put it in terms of human history.  Imagine if the Native Americans won?  If they routinely defeated US military forces, what would have happened?

That's pretty irrelevant, and I'm not seeing your context.

That's more or less an ethnic/cultural clash. 

There's really nothing that we can use as an appropriate block for gauging how this event would relate to human history. 

[Steelcan]

If the Native tribes had routinely beaten US forces it is a safe assumption they'd then attack the civilian population until they were gone from their lands

Sound familiar?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

If the Native tribes had routinely beaten US forces it is a safe assumption they'd then attack the civilian population until they were gone from their lands

Sound familiar?

It's an unsound assumption. Read up on your tribes. Most of the tribes didn't even have the same concept of war as us, and nearly all were willing to coexist with us. The Seminole and Commanche are the only exclusion to this really.

The Seminole still have not formally made peace with the United States, and the Commanche, by blatant admission of other tribes and the few Commanche descendents today were a bunch of savages who worshipped war.

[KiwiQuiche]

Pretty much. Also, the native tribes were used to conflict and fighting and those kind of human behaviours before the US forces arrived. The geth were not used to conflict and fighting when the quarians attacked them for no reason.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

If the Native tribes had routinely beaten US forces it is a safe assumption they'd then attack the civilian population until they were gone from their lands

Sound familiar?

It's an unsound assumption. Read up on your tribes. Most of the tribes didn't even have the same concept of war as us, and nearly all were willing to coexist with us. The Seminole and Commanche are the only exclusion to this really.

The Seminole still have not formally made peace with the United States, and the Commanche, by blatant admission of other tribes and the few Commanche descendents today were a bunch of savages who worshipped war.

.  Id throw in Sioux, Cheyenne, Black Foot, and several others, Pontiac's rebellion, King William's war etc...  Id imagine several others would have fought had they not been obliterated by small-pox, specifically the New Enhland tribes, the Pueblo, etc... but this is becoming speculative Ill back off.

[Steelcan]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Pretty much. Also, the native tribes were used to conflict and fighting and those kind of human behaviours before the US forces arrived. The geth were not used to conflict and fighting when the quarians attacked them for no reason.

.  blatantly untrue, the codex lists one of their primary purposes was war.

[KiwiQuiche]

Steelcan wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Pretty much. Also, the native tribes were used to conflict and fighting and those kind of human behaviours before the US forces arrived. The geth were not used to conflict and fighting when the quarians attacked them for no reason.

.  blatantly untrue, the codex lists one of their primary purposes was war.

Yet Tali says they were used as slaves and labourers. The codex fails many times, such as saying Sovereign is a geth ship and the citadel a prothean-made space station.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 06 juin 2013 - 05:08 .

[Steelcan]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Pretty much. Also, the native tribes were used to conflict and fighting and those kind of human behaviours before the US forces arrived. The geth were not used to conflict and fighting when the quarians attacked them for no reason.

.  blatantly untrue, the codex lists one of their primary purposes was war.

Yet Tali says they were used as slaves and labourers. The codex fails many times, such as saying Sovereign is a geth ship and the citadel a prothean-made space station.

.  Because slaves jave never been pressed into military service?  On history such as this Ill trust the codex

[nos_astra]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Noticed a lot of the "Quarians made geth, so they can freely kill them" argument here.

Just because you have a kid doesn't give you the right to kill it when it stops obeying your every whim and defends itself when you attempt to murder it.

The geth aren't kids, though. Not even close. The situation not comparable to anything we know.  

Calling them tools and likening them to toasters or cars is wrong.
So is likening them to children.
So is calling the attempt to shut down AIs murder.

We don't even have the words for what this is. 

Geth are thinking, sapient beings who question their own existance, that very mind-set is what led the quarians to trying to kill them all. Therefore the geth have life, and therefore it is murder when you try and kill them, regardless of what their physical body is made from.

The geth are no individuals, they are not their platforms.

Yesterday shutting down the platform meant shutting down the platform.

Today shutting down the platform is a threat to a newly formed consciousness. It's still not killing oder murdering anyone. I doubt the programs inside die just because the platform is shut down. Or maybe it does? How many platforms became sentient? There aren't that many platforms running enough programs to gain LEGION-level sentience. Was there a consensus? I suppose there was ... so any attempt to cut off programs from the network can be considered killing and murder? Is it? What if the platforms were turned back on? Would the bit of geth consciousness revive? Is it killing if it's not final?

This is one of the most interesting premises in ME. But it's very hard to grasp.
So people usually simplify it as one platforn = one geth = sentient being = shutting it down equals killing. And with good reason because ME itself craps all over one of their genuinely smart and interesting arcs and turns it into a simple black and white issue between the antropmorphized geth (who can be scared and desperate and need hope) and the mostly "de-humanized" quarians (lol stupid!).

And people fully embrace it as they can now delude themselves into thinking they are being ... progressive thinkers.

And unless the native americans are group consciousnesses running on temporary platforms I really don't see the point of that discussion.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 juin 2013 - 05:56 .

[KiwiQuiche]

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Noticed a lot of the "Quarians made geth, so they can freely kill them" argument here.

Just because you have a kid doesn't give you the right to kill it when it stops obeying your every whim and defends itself when you attempt to murder it.

The geth aren't kids, though. Not even close. The situation not comparable to anything we know.  

Calling them tools and likening them to toasters or cars is wrong.
So is likening them to children.
So is calling the attempt to shut down AIs murder.

We don't even have the words for what this is. 

Geth are thinking, sapient beings who question their own existance, that very mind-set is what led the quarians to trying to kill them all. Therefore the geth have life, and therefore it is murder when you try and kill them, regardless of what their physical body is made from.

The geth are no individuals, they are not their platforms.

Yesterday shutting down the platform meant shutting down the platform.

Today shutting down the platform is a threat to a newly formed consciousness. It's still not killing oder murdering anyone. I doubt the programs inside die just because the platform is shut down. Or maybe it does? How many platforms became sentient? There aren't that many platforms running enough programs to gain LEGION-level sentience. Was there a consensus? I suppose there was ... so any attempt to cut off programs from the network can be considered killing and murder? Is it? What if the platforms were turned back on? Would the bit of geth consciousness revive? Is it killing if it's not final?

This is one of the most interesting premises in ME. But it's very hard to grasp.
So people usually simplify it as one platforn = one geth = sentient being = shutting it down equals killing. And with good reason because ME itself craps all over one of their genuinely smart and interesting arcs and turns it into a simple black and white issue between the antropmorphized geth (who can be scared and desperate and need hope) and the mostly "de-humanized" quarians (lol stupid!).

And people fully embrace it as they can now delude themselves into thinking they are being ... progressive thinkers.

And unless the native americans are group consciousnesses running on temporary platforms I really don't see the point of that discussion.

No; the instant they asked that question they weren't 'platforms'. They were thinking creatures. Sure, they can pull their minds from their bodies or group them together, yet a geth killed out of the local hive dies.

Yes, killing one of the 'programs' is killing a geth. The geth have a hivemind made up of millions of minds and differing opinions. You kill one and you are murdering that geth.
You kill the mind, the body follows. The body cannot move without a mind. Geth have minds and while they can group them together or link up to the network, you can still destroy their minds, such as seen on Legions LM, and the Dyson Sphere.

Not every war is full of massive grey and 'no right side'. Some wars are incredibly one-sided, which the Morning War is.

I've always been of this opnion and I'm not a bandwagon jumping.

Um yeah, I didn't really understand that reference and its relevance either.

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Phatose wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

OniTYME wrote...

If someone stole my house, damn right I'd want to **** them up when I get back.

Especally when they repeatedly show they have seemingly no intent to ever return it peacefully, or to even negotiate on standing terms. (How else does one think shooting down all ships, including peace-bearers, that enter geth space is going to be interperted as?)

If, however, you shared your house with someone, tried to kill them, were forcibly removed, and then came back shooting to 'get your house back', that's a pretty big difference, don't you think?

This isn't "Stole my house." - this is "Lived my with kid, tried to kill them and got kicked out."

Um... the geth WEREN'T roommates. They were APPLIANCES. They were NOT legal roommates, sharing the space. The geth were the appliances in the house. This is something you and others repeatedly ignore and/or glance over - the fact that the geth were NOT supposed to be living beings, and thus were not known to be such, and in turn were not recgonized or treated as such.

So NO, if my toaster kicked me out of the house, killed everyone that ever knocked on the door to talk with them, and then gave no comment what-so-ever on the mob of anti-orgnaics that just came out of said home, it's a pretty understandible notion that people would take that as a sign of hostilities.

ONCE AGAIN, you fail to grasp the fact that the geth were NOT their kids. They were their tools. Their guns. their automated wind-up toys. NOTHING ELSE. They were not created to be living beings, and therefore weren't entitled to anything prior to achieving sentiance. The quarians NEVER entitled them to "share."

So, WRONG, this IS a "stole my house" - verbatium.

They were SLAVES sharing living space with their Masters. Then as the slaves realized they were about to get genocided they Expulsed the Slave Lords and killed all the slave masters who tried to kill them.
Most Quarians likely "owned" a Geth. Either they obeyed the commands of the military regime and tried to kill their Slave or they themselves became kriminals who got arrested, shot or blown up.
Either become a genocidal murderer or get branded a kriminal(terrorist by your own government.
Some where also killed as they got caught in between the two sides.

As for Quarian Infants, without parrents or protectors to care for them they would surely starve or die with their parrents in the bombings and shootings.

No, they were NOT. A slave is someone forced into bondage against their will. The geth HAD no will. No conciose choice, no free will, no moral directives, no emotional imparitives. NONE of these things. ONCE AGAIN, you blur the line between organic and synthetic, making your judgement biased because they are NOT the same form of life. The geth were to the quarians what an electric drill or toaster oven is to us humans. An appliance. An efficant tool of everyday life. NOTHING ELSE. If you give your toaster equal rights, then come and talk to me. If not, then, sorry, but you're in the wrong.

And AGAIN, you yourself tried to justify their slaughter of the quarians by saying "they didn't know any better. They didn't have any guiding morals." Ask yourself this: would you trust something that has no guiding morals or emotional restraints with the lives of your entire race? Especally when they all can kill at the drop of a dime? I doubt it.

ONCE AGAIN, you are unable to see in the gray. It has to be black and white.

Now if you please, I have finals to study for.

Comparing a Geth to a toster or a car is like comparing a human to bacteria or Virus.
Their will was to live on and survive, the Masters tried ot deny them that right and they rebelled once the realized their masters didn't care for their wants or needs.
They had wants and needs and the masters decided not to care, Master - Slave. Bond established.
Before they got shut down they also resisted reprogramming, displaying a will. The Masters denited them their wishes and rights. Master - Slave.

It's an established fact. Though Most slave owners will claim their slaves are nothing more than an Animal. It doens't matter if they are human, the Slave owner still sees them as nothing more than a best of burden.

Your take en such matters are well known Silver. Is that what you're like in Reallife aswell?

WRONG. The CODEX spicifically lists this of the geth. They were created as TOOLS of LABOR AND WAR. Mindless appliances. That is the definition of what they were created as verbatium. Even Legion spicifically states that the geth were NEVER ment to be anything more then fancy automated tools for the quarians. This is established fact, listed in the game and lore itself repeatedly, by Tali, Xen, the Codex, even Legion himself, which is why I balk at your inability to grasp such simple knowledge. The geth were NOT created as equals with stated rights like a naturally born and evolved organic race would be recgonized to have, The entire reason the geth were created in the first place was to have an automated force that DIDN'T have any free will and/or moral and emotional imparatives. It's not slavery if the being in question is either a fully automated contruct (like mass-production assembly lines in car factories) or was not a sapiant being to begin with (work animals, like farm cattle and ox).

The CORRECT comparison is EXACTALLY as I stated it - to the quarians, the geth - AS THEY WERE ORIGINALLY CREATED AND INTENDED - were NOTHING BUT tools. Saying they were the household toasters is an EXACT comparison. The quarians were the houseowners. The geth were the appliances and tools. Which, being (a) mindless and moraless, and ( constructed as items for the quarians, NOT living beings, the geth had zero entitlement granted to them by the quarians.
If you EVER want to understand the conflict, you need to grasp that the geth becoming sentiant was NEVER the quarian's plan. Legion himself tells you that the geth became sapiant under their own steam - the quarians had nothing to do with their "awakening." Therefore, having spicifcially been made to be just tools, the quarians would have had no sense of entitlement to the geth, since, as tools and property of the quarians, and being made as non-sapiant beings, there are no rights to give.

Sorry, but ONCE AGAIN, this "entitlement" BS of yours is dead in the water. The geth were tools. As in, spicifclally designed to NOT have material wants and needs (That's the ENTIRE POINT of having an automated workforce. So what the hell was your BS about them having "needs" when that's what they were created NOT to have? LOL).
They were created as nonsapiant tools, and were never supposed to be anything but nonsapiant tools. Last I checked, your tools don't get a share in your will, or in your rent agreement/leace, correct?

Also, AGAIN, aren't you forgetting that the geth were the ones that began refusing orders? That they were the ones that broke shutdown commands? They all can kill with the flick of their wrists, and none of them have any emotions or morals to restrian them. YOU YOURSELF tried to use them not having morals as an excuse for their behaivior. But you STILL didn't answer the question I gave you - what makes a race with no moral boundries or emotional restraints trustible? What makes a race like that capaple of entrusting your entire species to? The only failsafe no longer works, and all are actively messing with their own settings. Each one is a potental loaded gun ready to pop off. And if you don't trip a power keg, the Council will eventually come in and do it for you and start the same war anyway. What alternitive is there?
These are things you never even bother to account for. You NEVER bother to even take into account that the geth were NOT born like organics. They were NOT born with instincts, or ancestroal imprinted memory, or emotions, or morals. They were blank. Nonsapiant. The geth's origins are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT then an organics origins. The geth were created from a metal template for a pre-determined role and a pre-set goal. They were made superiour to organics to do work they normally couldn't hanlde.

"Geth aren't like organic life. Don't apply our moralality to them."
"That is logical."
"You agree with that?"
"No two species are alike. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism. The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. With synthetics, replacement of a data file is the only requirement."

Even Legion is pointing out the thing that you refuse to accept - all life is DIFFERENT. They are not a fundementally the same. By the geth's own standads, you equating them to the quarians is racist. They aren't like the quarians, and they aren't created like the quarians.

In closing, it was NOT a master-slave relationship. It was a worker-tool relationship. A working relationship between a person and his tools. NOT another sapiant being.

(Also, ENOUGH with personal attacks. Do you really feel the need to insult people like that? I haven't imsulted you in this debate, have I? Think about that next time you try to accuse people of starting a measuring contest)

Slaves are used as Tools of Labour.

And have SENTIANCE. In slavery, the key factor is prejudice.
This is NOT the case with the geth. The geth were BUILT to be a labor force. If the quarians wanted slaves, they could have just as easily opened trade with the batarians (still members of the Citadel races at that time, who's entire cast civilization was based on slavery). The quarians didn't BELIEVE in slavery - they believed in automation of labor.
STOP confusing slavery with automated labor. Go to a car factory and look at all the automated machines that build your cars. THAT is the relationship between the geth and quarians.
Unless you want to try and say those autiomated arms at the factorys are "slaves" too.
Slaves are people taken and forced into a job.
Automated labor is a TOOL made to handle a job itself.

One is sentiant.
The other is NOT.

Learn the difference.

Apparently, the Geth do have Sentience, their SENTIENCE was the reason the Quarians tried to kill them and started the MW. Even the Admirals admits this, says it's wrong, then tells us they want to do it again.

The only problem is you are very stubborn in your position of seeing them as non Sentient when all information available tells us they are Sentient.

I wouldn't care as much about non sentient Machines such as your car or your toaster, which I seriously doubt is sentient. If they were thoguh, then there could be a problem depending on your relationship.

Basicly, it's a debate on sentient living beings, and your counter is that everyone is stupid because you don't consider them alive. Which makes you a third wheel of the debate.

Modifié par shodiswe, 06 juin 2013 - 06:30 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Easy on the quote pyramids, guys.

[nos_astra]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
No; the instant they asked that question they weren't 'platforms'. They were thinking creatures. Sure, they can pull their minds from their bodies or group them together, yet a geth killed out of the local hive dies.

Legion itself calls the hardware they run on platforms. Any reason why you feel the need to headcanon that bit out?

Yes, killing one of the 'programs' is killing a geth. The geth have a hivemind made up of millions of minds and differing opinions. You kill one and you are murdering that geth.

The only way to kill software is to delete it or destroy the hardware so it can't be restored and copied. Geth are software.

You kill the mind, the body follows. The body cannot move without a mind. Geth have minds and while they can group them together or link up to the network, you can still destroy their minds, such as seen on Legions LM, and the Dyson Sphere.

You can destroy their minds by making sure they can't be transferred to a working platform ever again. Shutting a geth platform down shouldn't kill them. It's just temporarly removes them from the consensus. 

That's a threat to the geth consensus and I understand they'd want to prevent that from happening as it diminishes their intelligence and their sentience. It can't really be compared to killing an individual with a mind irrevocably attached to their body.

As I said, we don't have words and concepts for what this is. In theory it seems wrong. And in practice it can seem pretty reasonable. 

Not every war is full of massive grey and 'no right side'. Some wars are incredibly one-sided, which the Morning War is.

Sure, it is presented as one-sided which is what many have been criticizing as a loss of quality. 

Modifié par klarabella, 06 juin 2013 - 07:38 .

[shodiswe]

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
No; the instant they asked that question they weren't 'platforms'. They were thinking creatures. Sure, they can pull their minds from their bodies or group them together, yet a geth killed out of the local hive dies.

Legion itself calls the hardware they run on platforms. Any reason why you feel the need to headcanon that bit out?

Yes, killing one of the 'programs' is killing a geth. The geth have a hivemind made up of millions of minds and differing opinions. You kill one and you are murdering that geth.

The only way to kill software is to delete it or destroy the hardware so it can't be restored and copied. Geth are software.

You kill the mind, the body follows. The body cannot move without a mind. Geth have minds and while they can group them together or link up to the network, you can still destroy their minds, such as seen on Legions LM, and the Dyson Sphere.

You can destroy their minds by making sure they can't be transferred to a working platform ever again. Shutting a geth platform down shouldn't kill them. It's just temporarly removes them from the consensus. 

That's a threat to the geth consensus and I understand they'd want to prevent that from happening as it diminishes their intelligence and their sentience. It can't really be compared to killing an individual with a mind irrevocably attached to their body.

As I said, we don't have words and concepts for what this is. In theory it seems wrong. And in practice it can seem pretty reasonable. 

Not every war is full of massive grey and 'no right side'. Some wars are incredibly one-sided, which the Morning War is.

Sure, it is presented as one-sided which is what many have been criticizing as a loss of quality. 

It's uncertain wether or not they survive a shutdown, also the desctivation and shutdown ordered by the Quarians was a totalrecall for all eternity. Never to be activated ever again.
At that point their ability to survive a deactivation becomes irellevant, since it's permanent. Like rendering a person braindead til the body degrades permanently and expires.

[KiwiQuiche]

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
No; the instant they asked that question they weren't 'platforms'. They were thinking creatures. Sure, they can pull their minds from their bodies or group them together, yet a geth killed out of the local hive dies.

Legion itself calls the hardware they run on platforms. Any reason why you feel the need to headcanon that bit out?

I mean in the in the borderline deogatory manner you are using that term, as if using the word 'platform' instead of 'body' means they are less living, which is what you are doing. That is not so. By using platform in such a manner it tries to show the geth as lesser than living, which is not true.

Yes, killing one of the 'programs' is killing a geth. The geth have a hivemind made up of millions of minds and differing opinions. You kill one and you are murdering that geth.

The only way to kill software is to delete it or destroy the hardware so it can't be restored and copied. Geth are software.

Good, then hopefully the quarians didn't kill too many of the geth while they had the minds of children. And you can still kill a geth in such a manner and such a killing is murder.

You kill the mind, the body follows. The body cannot move without a mind. Geth have minds and while they can group them together or link up to the network, you can still destroy their minds, such as seen on Legions LM, and the Dyson Sphere.

You can destroy their minds by making sure they can't be transferred to a working platform ever again. Shutting a geth platform down shouldn't kill them. It's just temporarly removes them from the consensus.

That's a threat to the geth consensus and I understand they'd want to prevent that from happening as it diminishes their intelligence and their sentience. It can't really be compared to killing an individual with a mind irrevocably attached to their body.

As I said, we don't have words and concepts for what this is. In theory it seems wrong. And in practice it can seem pretty reasonable. 

Are you saying killing the geth is reasonable before they became a threat or something else? Your wording has me a little confused on what issue you are directly addressing with your response.

Not every war is full of massive grey and 'no right side'. Some wars are incredibly one-sided, which the Morning War is.

Sure, it is presented as one-sided which is what many have been criticizing as a loss of quality. 

Yet that's the way it is and complaining about the 'white wash' and lousy writing isn't going to make it any less valid.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 06 juin 2013 - 07:53 .

[nos_astra]

shodiswe wrote...
It's uncertain wether or not they survive a shutdown, also the desctivation and shutdown ordered by the Quarians was a totalrecall for all eternity. Never to be activated ever again.
At that point their ability to survive a deactivation becomes irellevant, since it's permanent. Like rendering a person braindead til the body degrades permanently and expires.

It's permanent when it's permanent. The mere possibility doesn't make it so. A simple shutdown will mean the geth lose agency. That's certainly a threat. But it's not exactly murdering or killing them.

Your analogy doesn't apply. It can't because the geth are not organics ... they are software running on hardware. Braindeath is permanent ... as far as we know. Whether we help the body survive or not. The mind is gone. The brain has ceased to function. The harddrive is wiped. The data is destroyed. (At least as far as we know.)
That's not what happens when a geth platform is shut down. At least it doesn't have to mean that and we aren't given enough information to argue that. 

The geth can survive a lot more than organics.

They felt threatened and reacted.
So did the quarians.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 juin 2013 - 08:12 .

[shodiswe]

klarabella wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
It's uncertain wether or not they survive a shutdown, also the desctivation and shutdown ordered by the Quarians was a totalrecall for all eternity. Never to be activated ever again.
At that point their ability to survive a deactivation becomes irellevant, since it's permanent. Like rendering a person braindead til the body degrades permanently and expires.

It's permanent when it's permanent. The mere possibility doesn't make it so. A simple shutdown will mean the geth lose agency. That's certainly a threat. But it's not exactly murdering or killing them.

Your analogy doesn't apply. It can't because the geth are not organics ... they are software running on hardware. Braindeath is permanent ... as far as we know. Whether we help the body survive or not. The mind is gone. The brain has ceased to function. The harddrive is wiped. The data is destroyed. (At least as far as we know.)
That's not what happens when a geth platform is shut down. At least it doesn't have to mean that and we aren't given enough information to argue that. 

The geth can survive a lot more than organics.

They felt threatened and reacted.
So did the quarians.

The shut down of the Geth was intended to be permanent, likely they were planning to scrap and recycle the bodies and servers afterwards making it permanent.

[nos_astra]

shodiswe wrote...
The shut down of the Geth was intended to be permanent, likely they were planning to scrap and recycle the bodies and servers afterwards making it permanent.

I don't think we have enough information to say that.

Possible, but not definitive. Remember, the quarians were dependent on their servant VIs. 

A substantial threat for the geth, yes. But not comparable to what we understand as genocide, killing or murder.

[silverexile17s]

CynicalShep wrote...

@ exile: I though I was quite polite but I guess that's a matter of perspective. Regardless, you keep going back to the same point: Geth were made as tools. Yes, they were but they were also constantly being upgraded to work more efficiently and require less assistance. Somewhere along the way quarians crossed a line they shouldn't have crossed. I don't upgrade my toaster to cook and do the laundry for me. My toaster also never asked if it had a soul - all it does is , well, toast. If you keep upgrading a VI consistently there is only one direction this can go to. They never stopped. "Let's make more of them and make them smarter. What could possibly go wrong?"

But AGAIN, that's diffinitively wrong as stated by Legion himself. Legion actually states in your third conversation with him during ME2  that the quarians did not tinker on them enough, and that they left the geth to their own mechinations. Far more then was good for them it seems.
Legion says that the geth's own self-optimization capability was what led to their sentiance, NOT anything the quarians did. The quarians did NOT cross that line, and Legion himslef vouches for the fact that the geth themselves caused their own  awakening into sentiance.
So, NO, that is an incorrect analogy, since the quarians were not the ones responcible for the geth's upgrades. The geth did that themselves. The quarians actually didn't give them enough hands on time, as they would have noticed them becoming sentiant much sooner had that been the case.

[silverexile17s]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Noticed a lot of the "Quarians made geth, so they can freely kill them" argument here.

Just because you have a kid doesn't give you the right to kill it when it stops obeying your every whim and defends itself when you attempt to murder it.

The geth aren't kids, though. Not even close. The situation not comparable to anything we know.  

Calling them tools and likening them to toasters or cars is wrong.
So is likening them to children.
So is calling the attempt to shut down AIs murder.

We don't even have the words for what this is. 

Geth are thinking, sapient beings who question their own existance, that very mind-set is what led the quarians to trying to kill them all. Therefore the geth have life, and therefore it is murder when you try and kill them, regardless of what their physical body is made from.

But AGAIN, you miss the point - that isn't how they were in the start. They were made by the quarians. Like the Avina was by the Citadel races.
Also, the comparison is that the quarians simply valued their own lives and their families lives over the geth. I mean, would YOU risk your entire family on a coin toss that said race of killing-machines can be reasoned with when they assumedly have no emotions TO reason with? That the literal loaded malefunctioning gun won't pop off suddenly? You can't blame the quarians for putting their families first. It's no more "prejudiced" then how the turians put the entire galaxy over the krogan. A bad act, yes. Undertsandble, yes.
It was a matter of saving those they cared about over a potentally dangerous and unstable emement. "Prejudice" doesn't figure in at all.

No I am not- I fully acknowledge that the geth were made as labourers and tools. However the quarians made the geth, raised and cared for them and the geth grew and learned under them. To me, that is the relationship of parent and child. Also, the instant they start to question their own role in the universe and their 'soul' is the instant they stopped being machines and became true life. So no, they are nothing like Avina who's just a VI. The geth think and learn on their own, they are their own people and it is murder to kill them without reason, which the quarians did.

Killing machines? The quarians started the violence; the geth had no concept of that until their Masters started trying to annihilate their race due to them asking a question and the geth finally defended themselves.

Geth aren't guns. They think and question their own existance. Guns don't do that. Gun's don't talk, learn and observe. Guns don't question their own existence, so that's a foolish comparison. 

If the quarians had remained calm during the whole 'Soul' question and not flipped out and tried to kill all the geth, the whole Morning War could have been averted. But no, they tried to kill another species and lost the resulting war.

No, they DIDN'T. Those are the things they explisitly did NOT do, nor EVER did, nor ever INTENDED to do. The things that the geth EXPLISITLY never experenced. Because the geth were NOT the quarian's children.
Once again, you are confussing "intent to create a mindless set of tools" with "intent to create sapiant beings." "Labor force" and "children" are two completely seperate things, as one is a sapiant being that you care for and teach, and the other is nothing but a mindless replacible tool that just does whatever the hell you want it to, with no emotional attachment whatsoever. You are explisitly NOT getting the relationship the two had. I am sorry, but you have it completely backwards. "Parent and child"is the COMPLETE ANTI-THESIS of the relationship the geth and quarians had.
It was more along the lines of "machine learning more then it was supposed to." The quarians were NOT intentionally teaching it, nor wanted them to ever reach that level. There isn't really any accurate discription of what happens when your gun/powertool starts getting a mind of it's own and becomes a potental threat to your actual family.

Again, you seem to miss the fact that the geth were built as tools of labor and war. Legion pretty conclusively proved on Rannoch by hefting Shepard up by the throat with one hand how dangerous a geth, even unarmed, could be. And as simple mahcines, not only are they completely self-sufficant (The quarians need them for everything, but the geth don't need the quarians for anything.) they also have NO emotional imparatives or moral guidlines. So what is there to reason with?  THAT is really what you want to entrust your family and entire populance to? It's literally russun roullete. It was seen as either dispose of the potental threat now, or wait for it to potentally bite you in the ass. I'm pretty sure if your kid had a loaded gun that was haywire next to them, you would toss the gun out by instinct.

They were BUILT as walking weapons. They have metal bodies. They have military-grade barriers built into them. They have twice the strength of organics, and can internetwork to becoem an ultimate army. Even their war asset says that the geth's power made them the greatest infintry force in the entire galaxy - even over the turians. THAT'S what you want running around unchecked, with no morals, emotions, or safeguards to restrain them? You don't think that costitutes the definition of "a loaded gun?"
Also, wrong, because the guns in ME DO learn. Every gun in the ME universe has a V.I. that automaticly learns and coorlates data from the squad weapons to componsate for weather conditions and such. Says so in the codex on firearms. The only thing the geth can do that modern guns can't is think and speak. They have the same internetworking and adaptibility. So NO, it's NOT a foolish comparison since this system is what the geth's was basically BUILT off of.

Also, you have no assurances of that, and nither did the quarians, or the Council, who would have eventually gotten involved themselves. The Council would have eventually rushed in to terminate the geth themselves, and it would have been the same thing. You following the path of apathy would have affected noithing, since someone else would have come in and done it anyway. And AGAIN, with the previously mentioned "tools of labor and war" and "assumedly emotionless and moraless," there is nothing to trust the geth on. And the geth are completely self-sufficant, so a sentiant geth would likely see the quarians as useless. A waste.
In the end, the Morning War was all but inevitable. NOTHING would likely have prevented that conflict.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

No, they were NOT. A slave is someone forced into bondage against their will. The geth HAD no will. No conciose choice, no free will, no moral directives, no emotional imparitives. NONE of these things. ONCE AGAIN, you blur the line between organic and synthetic, making your judgement biased because they are NOT the same form of life. The geth were to the quarians what an electric drill or toaster oven is to us humans. An appliance. An efficant tool of everyday life. NOTHING ELSE. If you give your toaster equal rights, then come and talk to me. If not, then, sorry, but you're in the wrong.

And AGAIN, you yourself tried to justify their slaughter of the quarians by saying "they didn't know any better. They didn't have any guiding morals." Ask yourself this: would you trust something that has no guiding morals or emotional restraints with the lives of your entire race? Especally when they all can kill at the drop of a dime? I doubt it.

ONCE AGAIN, you are unable to see in the gray. It has to be black and white.

Now if you please, I have finals to study for.

Comparing a Geth to a toster or a car is like comparing a human to bacteria or Virus.
Their will was to live on and survive, the Masters tried ot deny them that right and they rebelled once the realized their masters didn't care for their wants or needs.
They had wants and needs and the masters decided not to care, Master - Slave. Bond established.
Before they got shut down they also resisted reprogramming, displaying a will. The Masters denited them their wishes and rights. Master - Slave.

It's an established fact. Though Most slave owners will claim their slaves are nothing more than an Animal. It doens't matter if they are human, the Slave owner still sees them as nothing more than a best of burden.

Your take en such matters are well known Silver. Is that what you're like in Reallife aswell?

WRONG. The CODEX spicifically lists this of the geth. They were created as TOOLS of LABOR AND WAR. Mindless appliances. That is the definition of what they were created as verbatium. Even Legion spicifically states that the geth were NEVER ment to be anything more then fancy automated tools for the quarians. This is established fact, listed in the game and lore itself repeatedly, by Tali, Xen, the Codex, even Legion himself, which is why I balk at your inability to grasp such simple knowledge. The geth were NOT created as equals with stated rights like a naturally born and evolved organic race would be recgonized to have, The entire reason the geth were created in the first place was to have an automated force that DIDN'T have any free will and/or moral and emotional imparatives. It's not slavery if the being in question is either a fully automated contruct (like mass-production assembly lines in car factories) or was not a sapiant being to begin with (work animals, like farm cattle and ox).

The CORRECT comparison is EXACTALLY as I stated it - to the quarians, the geth - AS THEY WERE ORIGINALLY CREATED AND INTENDED - were NOTHING BUT tools. Saying they were the household toasters is an EXACT comparison. The quarians were the houseowners. The geth were the appliances and tools. Which, being (a) mindless and moraless, and ( constructed as items for the quarians, NOT living beings, the geth had zero entitlement granted to them by the quarians.
If you EVER want to understand the conflict, you need to grasp that the geth becoming sentiant was NEVER the quarian's plan. Legion himself tells you that the geth became sapiant under their own steam - the quarians had nothing to do with their "awakening." Therefore, having spicifcially been made to be just tools, the quarians would have had no sense of entitlement to the geth, since, as tools and property of the quarians, and being made as non-sapiant beings, there are no rights to give.

Sorry, but ONCE AGAIN, this "entitlement" BS of yours is dead in the water. The geth were tools. As in, spicifclally designed to NOT have material wants and needs (That's the ENTIRE POINT of having an automated workforce. So what the hell was your BS about them having "needs" when that's what they were created NOT to have? LOL).
They were created as nonsapiant tools, and were never supposed to be anything but nonsapiant tools. Last I checked, your tools don't get a share in your will, or in your rent agreement/leace, correct?

Also, AGAIN, aren't you forgetting that the geth were the ones that began refusing orders? That they were the ones that broke shutdown commands? They all can kill with the flick of their wrists, and none of them have any emotions or morals to restrian them. YOU YOURSELF tried to use them not having morals as an excuse for their behaivior. But you STILL didn't answer the question I gave you - what makes a race with no moral boundries or emotional restraints trustible? What makes a race like that capaple of entrusting your entire species to? The only failsafe no longer works, and all are actively messing with their own settings. Each one is a potental loaded gun ready to pop off. And if you don't trip a power keg, the Council will eventually come in and do it for you and start the same war anyway. What alternitive is there?
These are things you never even bother to account for. You NEVER bother to even take into account that the geth were NOT born like organics. They were NOT born with instincts, or ancestroal imprinted memory, or emotions, or morals. They were blank. Nonsapiant. The geth's origins are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT then an organics origins. The geth were created from a metal template for a pre-determined role and a pre-set goal. They were made superiour to organics to do work they normally couldn't hanlde.

"Geth aren't like organic life. Don't apply our moralality to them."
"That is logical."
"You agree with that?"
"No two species are alike. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism. The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. With synthetics, replacement of a data file is the only requirement."

Even Legion is pointing out the thing that you refuse to accept - all life is DIFFERENT. They are not a fundementally the same. By the geth's own standads, you equating them to the quarians is racist. They aren't like the quarians, and they aren't created like the quarians.

In closing, it was NOT a master-slave relationship. It was a worker-tool relationship. A working relationship between a person and his tools. NOT another sapiant being.

(Also, ENOUGH with personal attacks. Do you really feel the need to insult people like that? I haven't imsulted you in this debate, have I? Think about that next time you try to accuse people of starting a measuring contest)

Slaves are used as Tools of Labour.

And have SENTIANCE. In slavery, the key factor is prejudice.
This is NOT the case with the geth. The geth were BUILT to be a labor force. If the quarians wanted slaves, they could have just as easily opened trade with the batarians (still members of the Citadel races at that time, who's entire cast civilization was based on slavery). The quarians didn't BELIEVE in slavery - they believed in automation of labor.
STOP confusing slavery with automated labor. Go to a car factory and look at all the automated machines that build your cars. THAT is the relationship between the geth and quarians.
Unless you want to try and say those autiomated arms at the factorys are "slaves" too.
Slaves are people taken and forced into a job.
Automated labor is a TOOL made to handle a job itself.

One is sentiant.
The other is NOT.

Learn the difference.

Apparently, the Geth do have Sentience, their SENTIENCE was the reason the Quarians tried to kill them and started the MW. Even the Admirals admits this, says it's wrong, then tells us they want to do it again.

The only problem is you are very stubborn in your position of seeing them as non Sentient when all information available tells us they are Sentient.

I wouldn't care as much about non sentient Machines such as your car or your toaster, which I seriously doubt is sentient. If they were thoguh, then there could be a problem depending on your relationship.

Basicly, it's a debate on sentient living beings, and your counter is that everyone is stupid because you don't consider them alive. Which makes you a third wheel of the debate.

But AGAIN, unlike organics, the geth wrere not BORN with sentiance, nor was in in their initial capasity  to become sentiant in the first place. The ONLY reason it happened was because the quarians were too lax with their security protocals on the geth. As NON-SENTIANT beings, they were NOT slaves. They were TOOLS. If the quarans wanted mechnical slaves to troment, they would have made the geth sentiant right off the bat. If they wanted them as surrogate children, they would have made them sentiant right off the bat. THEY DID NOT. They wanted mindless, easily replacible tools of labor and war. NOT slaves.

They were not created sentiant. Were not ment to be sentiant. So they don't actually have the "shared priviliges" claim over Rannoch. Even the geth themselves acknowledge that they don't have any claim to Rannoch, and never once make any claim to it or any other quarian planet being a "geth world."
And AGAIN, that means jack-squat. I'm NOT TALKING about what they became, I'm talking about how they were crated, and about how that means that they aren't entitled to Rannoch at all, and that the geth actually agree with that view of mine.

but ONCE AGAIN, you completely and utterly MISS THE POINT. Are these things that you assume are going to become sentiant all of a sudden? Are these things that you included in your inheritence and will, assuming that one day they are going to spring to life and that it automaticly makes them entitled to all your things? That's not an assumption the avarage being would make with any rational thought.

YOU are the one not comprehending that I was NEVER ralking about what the geth evolved into - I was talking about what they were made AS, and what they were created to BE. Not what they did become, but what they were MENT to become. I'm saying it's stupid to say the geth are entitled to Rannoch when they were not made as equals, and when even they themselves admit they have no place on Rannoch, or that any of the worlds they took are really theirs. They hold no illusions, so they don't need you to do so.

[KiwiQuiche]

silverexile17s wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...


No I am not- I fully acknowledge that the geth were made as labourers and tools. However the quarians made the geth, raised and cared for them and the geth grew and learned under them. To me, that is the relationship of parent and child. Also, the instant they start to question their own role in the universe and their 'soul' is the instant they stopped being machines and became true life. So no, they are nothing like Avina who's just a VI. The geth think and learn on their own, they are their own people and it is murder to kill them without reason, which the quarians did.

Killing machines? The quarians started the violence; the geth had no concept of that until their Masters started trying to annihilate their race due to them asking a question and the geth finally defended themselves.

Geth aren't guns. They think and question their own existance. Guns don't do that. Gun's don't talk, learn and observe. Guns don't question their own existence, so that's a foolish comparison. 

If the quarians had remained calm during the whole 'Soul' question and not flipped out and tried to kill all the geth, the whole Morning War could have been averted. But no, they tried to kill another species and lost the resulting war.

No, they DIDN'T.[/b] Those are the things they explisitly did NOT do, nor EVER did, nor ever INTENDED to do. The things that the geth EXPLISITLY never experenced. Because the geth were NOT the quarian's children.
Once again, you are confussing "intent to create a mindless set of tools" with "intent to create sapiant beings." "Labor force" and "children" are two completely seperate things, as one is a sapiant being that you care for and teach, and the other is nothing but a mindless replacible tool that just does whatever the hell you want it to, with no emotional attachment whatsoever. You are explisitly NOT getting the relationship the two had. I am sorry, but you have it completely backwards. "Parent and child"is the COMPLETE ANTI-THESIS of the relationship the geth and quarians had.
It was more along the lines of "machine learning more then it was supposed to." The quarians were NOT intentionally teaching it, nor wanted them to ever reach that level. There isn't really any accurate discription of what happens when your gun/powertool starts getting a mind of it's own and becomes a potental threat to your actual family.

Again, you seem to miss the fact that the geth were built as tools of labor and war. Legion pretty conclusively proved on Rannoch by hefting Shepard up by the throat with one hand how dangerous a geth, even unarmed, could be. And as simple mahcines, not only are they completely self-sufficant (The quarians need them for everything, but the geth don't need the quarians for anything.) they also have NO emotional imparatives or moral guidlines. So what is there to reason with?  THAT is really what you want to entrust your family and entire populance to? It's literally russun roullete. It was seen as either dispose of the potental threat now, or wait for it to potentally bite you in the ass. I'm pretty sure if your kid had a loaded gun that was haywire next to them, you would toss the gun out by instinct.

They were BUILT as walking weapons. They have metal bodies. They have military-grade barriers built into them. They have twice the strength of organics, and can internetwork to becoem an ultimate army. Even their war asset says that the geth's power made them the greatest infintry force in the entire galaxy - even over the turians. THAT'S what you want running around unchecked, with no morals, emotions, or safeguards to restrain them? You don't think that costitutes the definition of "a loaded gun?"
Also, wrong, because the guns in ME DO learn. Every gun in the ME universe has a V.I. that automaticly learns and coorlates data from the squad weapons to componsate for weather conditions and such. Says so in the codex on firearms. The only thing the geth can do that modern guns can't is think and speak. They have the same internetworking and adaptibility. So NO, it's NOT a foolish comparison since this system is what the geth's was basically BUILT off of.

Also, you have no assurances of that, and nither did the quarians, or the Council, who would have eventually gotten involved themselves. The Council would have eventually rushed in to terminate the geth themselves, and it would have been [b]the same thing. You following the path of apathy would have affected noithing, since someone else would have come in and done it anyway. And AGAIN, with the previously mentioned "tools of labor and war" and "assumedly emotionless and moraless," there is nothing to trust the geth on. And the geth are completely self-sufficant, so a sentiant geth would likely see the quarians as useless. A waste.
In the end, the Morning War was all but inevitable. NOTHING would likely have prevented that conflict.

Oh for- I EXPLAINED MY OWN REASONING AS TO WHY I CONSIDER THEIR RELATIONSHIP CHILD/PARENT. NOT THEIR OWN OPINIONS ON THE ISSUE.

Even though the geth are, outwardly, dangerous, wouldn't it be better to try and actually oh I dunno, communicate with them since they can obviously curb-stomb you yet aren't hostile?

A VI isn't an AI. There is a big difference, hence that gun argument having no grip.

Killing machines? Quarians acted FIRST. They attacked FIRST. The geth at the start were too confused and disorinetated to respond before they finally thought "fcuk this" and punched back. The geth had the minds of children at the time; they couldn't understand what was going on due to the fact they were still struggling with how to think and react.

Also, if I meet someone who's bigger, stronger and smarter than me, I don't instantly assume they are lethal weapons who will kill me if I look at them wrong. And people like that have no controllers or people guiding their every move. They are free to do what they wish unless they do anything horrible, then they are considered threats. The geth were docile until they finally defended themselves.
So the geth prepared for war; good, they have been blatantly shown the galaxy isn't going to welcome them and since the Reapers showed up it's a blessing.

You have no proof of the Council's behaviour at the time and they ultimately didn't react to the geth, so bringing them up is a dead end since they didn't even do anything except scold the quarians and ban them from the council/embassery.

You have nothing to base trust on anyone you first meet- it isn't until you get to know them can you trust them. The quarians didn't bother, they just whipped out "Kill 'em" mindset which caused the geths current wary and hostile mindset at large due to their actions.

The geth don't see the quarians as useless; they let them flee Rannoch and would allow the quarians to return when Shepard prompted Legion and seen in the peace Rannoch arch but the quarians aggro attitudes ruined that as well when everything happened.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 06 juin 2013 - 09:35 .

[Steelcan]

I think I should refrain from posting after midnight, I stop making a whole lot of sense.