1071 réponses à ce sujet

[HiddenInWar]

10/10 thread would read multiple times.

[silverexile17s]

Reiisha wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Reiisha wrote...

Artifex_Imperius wrote...

geth understand that they're creators have a few "lose nuts and bolts". so the geth could easily sum it up that the ball is on their court.

geth can live anywhere but quarians can't? or rannoch means much to quarians, maybe?

maybe out of respect for their creators geth should just leave rannoch. find a planet far far away. with more resource maybe?

can't understand why they'd stick to rannoch, or is this some ultimate trolling by the geth?
rannoch is probably mined out anyway?

Rannoch is their homeworld too you know. The Quarians started the fight, the Geth were the defenders. Why should they flee their own homeworld? By then it also houses a lot of their main hardware and structures aswell. They have a vested interest in the planet.

They do respect their creators, but the creators that truly respected them in return were killed off by the militant Quarians, who were (rightly so imho) exiled from their homeworld. Even now you have people like Xen who treat them like property or lifeless machines.

Centuries of propaganda have prevented future Quarian generations from seeing the truth. Only now, with Legion being the catalyst for change, have they started seeing the error of their ways. This is why it's possible for the Geth and Quarians to finally make peace in ME3.

Did you miss the part in ME2 where Legion said that the quarian's account is "largely the same?'" Pretty hard to call it "propoganda" when the opposed faction AGREES with the dipiction of the events, don't you think?

Also, NO, Rannoch is NOT the geth's "homeworld." Legion himself states that the geth do not believe in the concept of homeworlds. He says that home is where you are, not a rock you live on. The geth don't BELIEVE in the concept of a homeworld. Also, since the geth were not created as living beings, or intended to be equal to the quairans, they have no more claim to Rannoch then an appliance does to your house.

Also, AGAIN, wrong. When the geth stopped caring about civilian casuties, the quarians that supported the geth turned on them by their own accord. The geth could have just as easily NOT used chemical weapons on the quarians, or NOT have caused mass slaughter, instead staying solely on the defensive. Or they could have left Rannoch themselves if they didn't want to fight. Instead, their first option was to butcher everything. The quarians DIDN'T resort to that right off the bat (first they ignored the problem, then tried reprogramming so that they WOULDN'T be forced to kill them). Saying it's "rightly so" that the quarians were forced is the same as saying that humans were "rightly forced" off Earth by the Reapers. Think about that, imho.

Also, IDK if you realized this, but Legion had NO INTREST in rectifying the conflict. He was only to find and study Shepard. Also, when he made contact with Tali and presented a peace option to the Admirals, he did so in defiance of the rest of the geth. They did NOT support his actions, and subsiquently locked him up for it, preventing him from contacting Tali again.. So FYI, the geth were JUST as unwilling for peace. They are JUST as guilty. SHEPARD is the only reason peace is possible. NITHER the quarians OR geth did anything to cause that.

1) "Largely" is not "everything".

2) Legion is wearing a piece of Shepard's armor without being able to answer why. I'd say that this hints that the Geth do have at least a notion of sentiment towards such things. Aside from that, Rannoch did hold their assets.

3) Where are those details divulged? I've never heard that from Legion in the games. It's stated over and over that they had no intention of harming the Creators in the games, which leads me to believe that those civilian casualties are something from either the books or a bad fanfic. A writer who doesn't care about continuity in any case.

4) He didn't think it was possible to negotiate a peace untill Shepard offered it due to an assumption about organic life (assumptions are the mother of all f**kups). He then submitted this for consideration. He wasn't locked up by the Geth, but the Reapers, after fear (!!!!!!!) drove the Geth into their arms, though we still don't know the exact circumstances. There may not have been a conscensus about this decision, since we also know and get to see (!) that a lot of Geth join Shepard even BEFORE the Reaper influence has been dealt with, which implies that the Reapers forced a consensus on the Geth in some way.

1 - Legion says that the timeline of discriptions is the SAME. He also doesn't denote ANYTHING being different then the public account, now does he? Hell, he even OPENLY ADMITS that the quarians are JUSTIFIED in hating them for taking Rannoch. Sorry pal, but Legion himself conters you.

2 - you mean they are NOW. And Legion is an isolated and unique platform, meaning he doesn't represent all geth. This is highlighted when he makes contact with Tali Behind the backs of the rest of the geth, resulting in him being forbiddion from making contact with Tali again, and being imprisoned. Sorry to say, but the geth don't share Legions views. He's as much a black sheep among the geth as Koris & Tali are among the quarians. Also, the geth don't NEED Rannoch for that. They can live in space. The Heretics proved that the geth didn't need a world for their assets and resources. They have zero physical need for Rannoch.

3 -  Legion states on the Normandy that the geth are cleaning toxin damage from the Morning War 300 years later.  And cleaning it from ALL the quarian worlds. What would leave chemical damage that long lasting on EVERY world besides chemical weapons? Also, FYI, the war is described as "long and bloody." Also, if they "didn't intend harm," why did they systemically take the quarians worlds. We know from the discription of Haestrom (one of the first worlds to fall in the war) that the quarians didn't lose their worlds all at once. We know that the Morning War was one year long, meaning that the geth systemically counterattacked and inetntionally drove the quarians back, killing them methodocilly. Rannoch fell at the end of the war, one year after it started. Meaning that Rannoch fell after all the others had been taken. The geth were just as willing a participant as the quarians were.
Also, there were at least 2 billion quarians. 99% of them all died in one year. Trying to BS that the geth wern't responcible, when even Legion admits that they were (he says they only clean the worlds because they feel they owe it to all the quarians they killed) responcible for the death tool, is asanine. The geth themselves admit that they were responcible, and every information source diffinitively states that the death toll was the geth's fault. DON'T try to BS anyone.

4 - WRONG. Legion & Tali presented their peace attempt almost immediately after Shepard's lock-up. It was the first thing she and Legion did after ME2 according to her. Legion cut contact immediately after that, and none of Tali's attemps got Legion to respond again. Tali makes a comment that maybe Legion was fighting the Reaper takeover, even though this was five months before the Rannoch War. The geth forced Legion to cut all contact five months ago, and presumibly locked him up to ensure that. Sorry, but the GETH locked Legion up, not the Reapers. Also, those geth joined up after the Reaper influence WAS removed. Not before. And actually, they joined Legion, NOT Shepard. They only "joined" Shepard by association through Legion.

[silverexile17s]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Ya know Silver, if I wanted this kind of argument I would go pick a fight with David lol

I don't even know who that is.

Guess the jokes on you then.

It's now my fault you misintertperted the lore and didn't look into it at all.

You don't know who DAVID is? Good lord, run while you can.

Nope. But carry on with the high-and-mighty act. I admit, you are good at it.

There are more then a few people with the name "David" in their screan-names. Perhaps you could be a little more spicific?

I'm only doing that because you did the high-and-mighty bit first with your sympathy bit for the geth. When I pointed out how it was based on an incorrect notion and false information, you retaliated, and I responded in kind. Simple as that.
Same thing that @remydat and @Alud Wulf do. It's fire vs fire.

False information is in the eye of the beholder, you even tend to interpret codex entries opposite to what they are saying.

I noticed that as well, hence me stopping from taking him seriously.

Also, Silver's favourite word seems to be
http://forums.massas...11698&stc=1

As if yelling that enough times will make him right in everything.

You seem to thing so. Let me reflect it then:
Based on how you ignored facts from the Codex, and ignore words that Legion himself state as ture, YOU are:


http://forums.massas...11698&stc=1
That is you in regards to the geth.

Also, isn't it hypocritical to go on a tangent, then do the exact thing you accuse me of doing?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 09 juin 2013 - 05:17 .

[silverexile17s]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...


@Kiwi

Fine, Space Punisher = Garrus. Ignore everything i said and change the subject.


Quarian: What is Quarian word for "Servant of the people"
Geth: The word is "Geth, creator Z" (Forgot his name)

Oh no, I know full well what you said but I didn't care for it.

Yup. See? Servant, not slave. That means the quarians have no right to throw a wobbly and kill them for asking a damn question.

They are brainless machines. They aren't supposed to have the intelligence to speak of their own perogitive, let alone ask questions.
They are TOOLS, not slaves. Slaves mean you have sentient beings under your command. Tools do what you make them to do. Besides, you AGAIN misinterpert what it means, since "servent" can also apply to mindless things such as the LOKI mechs. Those are regarded as servents even though they have no intelligence.

[favoritehookeronthecitadel]

What silver does in bed:

Oh! ooh! I love this wrong anal sex! It's so wrong. oh! wrong! oh wow! You're so wrong. Oh! oh yeah! wrong! wrong! WROOOOOONG!...wrong...wrong.

[Phatose]

silverexile17s wrote...
LOL, WHAT? The humans have the second-largest space with dozens of colony worlds. You realize that with DOZENS of worlds, and billions of people, humans are NOT COMPARIBLE IN ANY WAY to the quarians? You know, since humans HAVE a homeworld to rely on for support?
Also, IFY, the quarians are dextros that need a specilized insect-free symbiotic ecosystem. Something which, according to the Codex, is unique to Rannoch. There literally IS no where else.
Also, tough it out is what they did for 300 years, but with the Reapers coming, that DOESN'T CUT IT. How insensitive can you get? Try to tell the humans on Earth to "tough it out" so flippently and see how long you go without getting your ass kicked for gross insensitivity.

Also, AGAIN, wrong. They have the most ships. Their actuall combat fleet is SMALLER then the turians. The title of biggest war fleet in the galaxy actually goes to the geth. In case you were still unaware, 75 - 80% of the quarian ships have civilians on them, and are thus, USELESS for front-line combat as they are now. Many ships actually pre-date the Morning War. All their ships are fallinhg apart. Tali tells you in ME1 that the most terrifying thing for a quarian is silence, because on the fleet, that means something has broken and that you have five minutes to live.
They live in CONSTANT fear that their ships are going to just stall out and die on them from simple old age. THOSE are the ships you want to fight Reapers with? While they are loaded with Civilians?
Hell, Hackett's reason for wanting the quarians was troop transport and supply running, NOT fighting. They were ment to be the supply infrustructure, not the battle lines. The only reason the fight against the geth was possible was because they had a viral weapon that could disable them en masse.

1.  The Quarians do not "NEED" a bug free ecosystem.  The "Need" one if they don't wat to wear their suits of shame.  And no, I don't care if they're stuck in their suits of shame.

2.  Oh, I would never tell humanity to tough it out?  Oh....so that part where I left Earth entirely and spent my time curing Dinosaur impotence and trying to convince suicidally incompetent space elves to not be so friggin' evil for a minute, that was not the entire plot of the game?  Cause you know, "Tough it out guys".

3.  Those "Oh noes can't use them in combat cause they've got CIVILIANS" ships?  Stop having civilians on them once the damn quarians move their suited asses down to a planet.    Which was the entire point of going out there in the first place.

4.  Reapers?  HE WAS TALKING ABOUT ME2.  And you can actually extend that out like, over 200 friggin years.  They've had *AGES*.  Did nothing but float around and feel sorry for themselves.

[Phatose]

favoritehookeronthecitadel wrote...

What silver does in bed:

Oh! ooh! I love this wrong anal sex! It's so wrong. oh! wrong! oh wow! You're so wrong. Oh! oh yeah! wrong! wrong! WROOOOOONG!...wrong...wrong.

Can we please not have this reduced to personal attacks?  Please?

[CynicalShep]

@ exile: take a chill the f**k out pill, pal.
I don't "fail to grasp" anything. Tali is contradicting what you're saying like some of what Legion said is contradicting me. Yet I never once told you how you "fail to grasp" anything although you never showed any signs of respect or reading comprehension. Let me remind you: I am not your enemy. I did not hurt the Quarians or you. Learn how to talk to people, you're in a public forum.

silverexile17s wrote...
AGAIN, "skirting the boundries" means not regulating the technology as througholly as the other races did.

Headcanon. She never mentioned how they skirted the law. She just said that they did.

silverexile17s wrote...
I ALSO remind you that Tali's father was a lier and committed war crimes that endangered the entire fleet, so citing him as a source of information is a point DOWN for you.

He also had no reason to make the Geth look better, because he hated them. Legion also was known to lie.

silverexile17s wrote...
Plus, unfortunetly for your arguement, the quarian's ancestroal archives were SEPERATE from the geth.

That does absolutely nothing to my argument. I never said it was related in any way with the Geth themselves. It does give you an insight into Quarians, however.

silverexile17s wrote...
The only way you are right is if you are willing to admit that Legion is a lier.

He did lie to you at least once in ME3. So he is a liar, technically. That doesn't mean that everything he said was a lie. It means that he does lie when he needs to.

silverexile17s wrote...
Also, AGAIN, wrong. You AGAIN fail to make a correct analogy - NO, you are NOT to blame.

Ok, Einstein. Consider this: you walk through a souvenir store with your kid. You or your kid accidentally brush against one of the shelves and knock a glass souvenir down. It shatters. Who is going to pay for it? You. Why are you going to pay for it? Because you're responsible, not the person who put the merchandise out.

Modifié par CynicalShep, 09 juin 2013 - 07:00 .

[KiwiQuiche]

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

[quote]shodiswe wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

Ya know Silver, if I wanted this kind of argument I would go pick a fight with David lol

[/quote]
I don't even know who that is.

Guess the jokes on you then.

It's now my fault you misintertperted the lore and didn't look into it at all.
[/quote]

You don't know who DAVID is? Good lord, run while you can.

Nope. But carry on with the high-and-mighty act. I admit, you are good at it.

[/quote]
There are more then a few people with the name "David" in their screan-names. Perhaps you could be a little more spicific?

I'm only doing that because you did the high-and-mighty bit first with your sympathy bit for the geth. When I pointed out how it was based on an incorrect notion and false information, you retaliated, and I responded in kind. Simple as that.
Same thing that @remydat and @Alud Wulf do. It's fire vs fire.

[/quote]

False information is in the eye of the beholder, you even tend to interpret codex entries opposite to what they are saying.[/quote]

I noticed that as well, hence me stopping from taking him seriously.

Also, Silver's favourite word seems to be
http://forums.massas...11698&stc=1

As if yelling that enough times will make him right in everything.

[/quote]
You seem to thing so. Let me reflect it then:
Based on how you ignored facts from the Codex, and ignore words that Legion himself state as ture, YOU are:


*get your own pic*
That is you in regards to the geth.

Also, isn't it hypocritical to go on a tangent, then do the exact thing you accuse me of doing?

[/quote]

I find it hilarious beyond reason that you of all people are lecturing me about ignoring lore and twisting things around to match my own view points.

And get your own pic to prove your point before continuing with your ranting.

I'm a hypocrite? Then so are you, but at least I don't hide it like you do.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

[quote]Cyrax86 wrote...


@Kiwi

Fine, Space Punisher = Garrus. Ignore everything i said and change the subject.


Quarian: What is Quarian word for "Servant of the people"
Geth: The word is "Geth, creator Z" (Forgot his name)



[/quote]

Oh no, I know full well what you said but I didn't care for it.

Yup. See? Servant, not slave. That means the quarians have no right to throw a wobbly and kill them for asking a damn question.

[/quote]
They
are brainless machines. They aren't supposed to have the intelligence
to speak of their own perogitive, let alone ask questions.
They are
TOOLS, not slaves. Slaves mean you have sentient beings under your
command. Tools do what you make them to do. Besides, you AGAIN
misinterpert what it means, since "servent" can also apply to mindless
things such as the LOKI mechs. Those are regarded as servents even
though they have no intelligence.
[/quote]

Hey silver, that wasn't directed at you, so can it.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

Ya know Silver, if I wanted this kind of argument I would go pick a fight with David lol

[/quote]
I don't even know who that is.

Guess the jokes on you then.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

It's now my fault you misintertperted the lore and didn't look into it at all.
[/quote]

You don't know who DAVID is? Good lord, run while you can.

Nope. But carry on with the high-and-mighty act. I admit, you are good at it.

[/quote]
There are more then a few people with the name "David" in their screan-names. Perhaps you could be a little more spicific?

I'm only doing that because you did the high-and-mighty bit first with
your sympathy bit for the geth. When I pointed out how it was based on
an incorrect notion and false information, you retaliated, and I
responded in kind. Simple as that.
Same thing that @remydat and @Alud Wulf do. It's fire vs fire.

[/quote]

Considering you've run into Remy and Wulf, I would say Seival and David7204 would be up there as well.

But thank you for putting me on their level, it's quite flattering.

High and mighty? Why, because I picked the side of the defenders? Stay classy, BSN. Chuck knows I'm used to it.

[/quote]
Wrong.
Because you failed to realize that there IS no "defenders." BOTH are on
the same level. The geth are not anything to brag about, nor have done
anything to brag about - as Legion himself admits. My
point is that you are defending them against crimes that Legion himself
has ALREADY ADMITTED GUILT TOWARD. That's where the "high-and-mighty"
is stemming from you -  the fact that you ignore Legion's OWN ADMISSION
that the geth are anything but innocent. In ME3, he oepnly admits that
the geth are a threat to everyone, and even rebukes Shepard when the
Commander says "the geth are better then this," to which Legion refuses,
saying that "Based on emperical evidence," they are NOT. You are being contridicted by Legion himself on this.

That
is my point - you are playing defender to a party that has already
admitted their own guilt of the crimes they committed. And then go as
far as to try and pin it all on a faction that was driven to desperation
by making a choice they were literally forced into by circimstance - no
different at all then what the geth were forced into. THAT'S what you
fail to realize - the geth and quarians are the same. Chastize the
quarians, and it simoultaniously chastizes the geth. It makes you the ultimate hypocrite, just like @remydat was.
[/quote]

...um yeah, what is your whole point? Kinda hard with all the rambling and blusting going on.

You
may be guilty of something, yet you can still defend your actions about
it, or feel it was you best course of actions at the time.

The quarians had a choice; the geth didn't.
Quarians: Attacking a docile race or think rationally.
Geth: Defend themselves or die.
That doesn't make me a hypocrite, fool. Get your definitions straight.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 09 juin 2013 - 07:34 .

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Ya know Silver, if I wanted this kind of argument I would go pick a fight with David lol

I don't even know who that is.

Guess the jokes on you then.

It's now my fault you misintertperted the lore and didn't look into it at all.

You don't know who DAVID is? Good lord, run while you can.

Nope. But carry on with the high-and-mighty act. I admit, you are good at it.

There are more then a few people with the name "David" in their screan-names. Perhaps you could be a little more spicific?

I'm only doing that because you did the high-and-mighty bit first with your sympathy bit for the geth. When I pointed out how it was based on an incorrect notion and false information, you retaliated, and I responded in kind. Simple as that.
Same thing that @remydat and @Alud Wulf do. It's fire vs fire.

False information is in the eye of the beholder, you even tend to interpret codex entries opposite to what they are saying.

This comming from the person that ignored the Codex entry stating that Rannoch was a physical need for the quarians. I'm not the one that ever misinterperted the Codex.

What it says is that "For many Quarians Reclaiming Rannoch is, bla bla blah" It's an expressed opinion among many Quarians, not a fact.
Just like it was the opinion of Hilter that they needed to reunite and restore Germany and gather all germans under the same flag. Or Bismark before that.
Or Napoleon who thought it was nessesary to spread his empire and their "ideals".

It's an opinion not a scientific fact, you treat is as if it was a scientific fact that they need Rannoch to survive as a species. They don't but I can see that it's prefereable for them.
But It's not a bilogical or cultural necessity for their species survival. It's however the opinion of many Quarians.
They do have a physical need for a Dextro homeworld and Rannoch is the best choice, but it's not the only choice and it's not ABSOLUTELY necessary.

In other words, Rannoch isn't a "NEED" but a "WANT" with a factor that they need but that they could get elsewhere.
They however were unwilling to take the necessary risks of findign their own planet despite havign had 300 years to do so.
It was feasible for them to find a new world, they instead choose to forgoe all atempts at findign a new home and instead huddled together preparing for another offensive.

Read between the lines and you will see it's a WANT and not a NEED. Just like Cerberus claims Humanity NEEDS Cerberus. Just like they claim humanity NEEDS to rule and stand above the other species.

There is a difference between actual NEEDS and WANTS. Do you understand what I'm saying?

So, yes Rannoch is certainly a huge boon for the Quarians, it's not an actual NEED though, more like a want that offers one of several possible options to fulfill a need.

[silverexile17s]

favoritehookeronthecitadel wrote...

What silver does in bed:

Oh! ooh! I love this wrong anal sex! It's so wrong. oh! wrong! oh wow! You're so wrong. Oh! oh yeah! wrong! wrong! WROOOOOONG!...wrong...wrong.

Where exactally did that come from? I don't post things like that against you.
And I wouldn't have to capilitize it so much if people got the hint and read the damn Codex, or listened to what was in the damn game.

[shodiswe]

Silver, in both the current conflict and the MW the Quarians were the agressors trying to kill the other sentient party.

The defending party has the right to use selfdefence. Did the Geth eventualy endup using excessive force? most likely yes by most defintions. They were still the victims though.
The Quarians are at the greater wrong, not saying the Geth didn't err.

Also, attacking rannoch wasn't strictly a need but a want that offered one of several possibilites to fulfill a need. Most conquerors consider their conquests a need when it's actualy a want.

Their empire needs when they should say their empire wants.

[CynicalShep]

silverexile17s wrote...
 
And I wouldn't have to capilitize it so much if people got the hint and read the damn Codex, or listened to what was in the damn game.

These discussions wouldn't be so long if you didn't sell your interpretation of the game as facts. People have opinions, just like you do. Some might be less valid than yours, others more.

Modifié par CynicalShep, 09 juin 2013 - 07:53 .

[silverexile17s]

Phatose wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
LOL, WHAT? The humans have the second-largest space with dozens of colony worlds. You realize that with DOZENS of worlds, and billions of people, humans are NOT COMPARIBLE IN ANY WAY to the quarians? You know, since humans HAVE a homeworld to rely on for support?
Also, IFY, the quarians are dextros that need a specilized insect-free symbiotic ecosystem. Something which, according to the Codex, is unique to Rannoch. There literally IS no where else.
Also, tough it out is what they did for 300 years, but with the Reapers coming, that DOESN'T CUT IT. How insensitive can you get? Try to tell the humans on Earth to "tough it out" so flippently and see how long you go without getting your ass kicked for gross insensitivity.

Also, AGAIN, wrong. They have the most ships. Their actuall combat fleet is SMALLER then the turians. The title of biggest war fleet in the galaxy actually goes to the geth. In case you were still unaware, 75 - 80% of the quarian ships have civilians on them, and are thus, USELESS for front-line combat as they are now. Many ships actually pre-date the Morning War. All their ships are fallinhg apart. Tali tells you in ME1 that the most terrifying thing for a quarian is silence, because on the fleet, that means something has broken and that you have five minutes to live.
They live in CONSTANT fear that their ships are going to just stall out and die on them from simple old age. THOSE are the ships you want to fight Reapers with? While they are loaded with Civilians?
Hell, Hackett's reason for wanting the quarians was troop transport and supply running, NOT fighting. They were ment to be the supply infrustructure, not the battle lines. The only reason the fight against the geth was possible was because they had a viral weapon that could disable them en masse.

1.  The Quarians do not "NEED" a bug free ecosystem.  The "Need" one if they don't wat to wear their suits of shame.  And no, I don't care if they're stuck in their suits of shame.

2.  Oh, I would never tell humanity to tough it out?  Oh....so that part where I left Earth entirely and spent my time curing Dinosaur impotence and trying to convince suicidally incompetent space elves to not be so friggin' evil for a minute, that was not the entire plot of the game?  Cause you know, "Tough it out guys".

3.  Those "Oh noes can't use them in combat cause they've got CIVILIANS" ships?  Stop having civilians on them once the damn quarians move their suited asses down to a planet.    Which was the entire point of going out there in the first place.

4.  Reapers?  HE WAS TALKING ABOUT ME2.  And you can actually extend that out like, over 200 friggin years.  They've had *AGES*.  Did nothing but float around and feel sorry for themselves.

1. AGAIN, wrong. They DO EXPLISITLY NEED a bug-free ecosystem. According to the Codex in ME3, it states that Rannoch's insect-free ecosystem is a physiological need, and that any hope of a future for them is nonexistant without it. They are literally doomed without that exact exosystem. Hell, their entire immune system is structured and evolved from that same environment. As evidenced by the fact that they have gone 300 years without finding even one single world that they could live on instead. Also, IFY, saying you don't care about them living in suits is the same as saying that you don't care about the effects the genophage has on the krogan. Cause and effect, pal. You don't care about the quarians being unable to live outside suits, then you have no right to say that the genophage is cruel. No right whatsoever.

2. Well, then congrats - your verson of Shepard is an insensitive ****. That or you are again misinterperting the entire point.
(A) You did that because there was no other choice but to leave Earth, because without allies, there's no chance of winning. ( Shepard's every step was done in order to act as fast as possible so that they wouldn't have to suffer under the Reapers. © The quarians acted to save their people, and did so at the expence of a race that has been on the "Reaper allies" list for three years. (D) You know full well, and advocate repeatedly throughout the game, that "toughing it out" is ABSOLUT ASININE IDIOCY. The entire reason you get the krogan to help is because you KNOW that NO ONE can "tough it out." You spend the entire game proving that you explisitly cannot tough it out. That was the entire reason of uniting the galaxy into a single force and betting all chips on the Crucible - because you and everyone else know that "toughing it out" is complete BULL.
Congradualtions. You completely missed the entire point of fighting the Reapers as a united force.

3. Um... that's the entire reason they want Rannoch back in the first place. So that they CAN offload their civilians. @DenionSlayer went over this at length, yet you still don't seem to get it.
Do me a favor - Name me ONE place that the quarians can offload 17 million civilians that will die, or at the least fall viloently ill, if their suits so much as get a snag. The closest worlds would be turian-owned, and they are all either overcrowed, being used as staging posts and can't spare the resources, or under attack by the Reapers, Collectors, or Cerberus. They can't just dump them on some rock, because they need resources, and most resource-rich worlds are already taken by the Reapers, or the Allied forces. They can't dump them on a desolate rock, because without resources, they will all starve and die anyway. Even faster if it's an unimhabitible rock with no atmosphere.  They can't take them with them into the fight with the Reapers, because as it, the ships are so interdependant on each-other that they can't split up, making them one big fat target for the Reapers. And if even one of the three liveships is destroyed, half their race starves. And in their covercrowed, innificant state, they burn through more resources in one day then the turians do in a whole month.
As is, they need a world to put their civilians on that has resources, is defendible, and habitable, and not in Reaper sights yet. An atmosphere that won't kill them would be nice too. Rannoch is the only place that fits all the criteria. And it's held by a race that to their knowledge, delcared alligence to the Reapers three years ago with the Battle of the Citadel, so it's safe to assume negotiation would be out. So they do the only thing they can to get the last and only safe haven for their people back - kick down the door and take it back by force.
So, sorry, but the only reason the quarians are doing this is for their people's future. They don't want to start a fight, but they feel like there is no other choice - it's either the geth or them. And since the quarians believed that the geth were Reaper allies since Eden Prime, and therefore irridemably hostile... well, do the math. I mean, tell me one thing the geth did to make the quarians think that they were in any way negotiable after the stunts the Heretics pulled at Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Ilos, Virmire, Therum, and the Citadel? Especally when they didn't know there was a Heretic split, nor had any evidence to cooberate such a belief.

4. Dead wrong. Ekuna and  Gei Hennom, to name a few, were worlds the quarians looked at. In fact, the Galactic Codex spicifically lists the Fleet as having done nothing but search for a new world for the last 300 years. NOTHING BUT. Explain how that fits into your assertation.
Codex trumps you on that.
And AGAIN, I ment the fact that these ships can't surivie against the Reapers. They get caught in that fight, they are dead. The only hope their people have is Rannoch.

[silverexile17s]

CynicalShep wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
 
And I wouldn't have to capilitize it so much if people got the hint and read the damn Codex, or listened to what was in the damn game.

These discussions wouldn't be so long if you didn't sell your interpretation of the game as facts. People have opinions, just like you do. Some might be less valid than yours, others more.

That's YOU, noyt me. I've stated that Legion and the Codex are my source. My opinions are backed by the actual Codex and the information Legion relates. Legion's word is the one countering yours.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

Silver, in both the current conflict and the MW the Quarians were the agressors trying to kill the other sentient party.

The defending party has the right to use selfdefence. Did the Geth eventualy endup using excessive force? most likely yes by most defintions. They were still the victims though.
The Quarians are at the greater wrong, not saying the Geth didn't err.

Also, attacking rannoch wasn't strictly a need but a want that offered one of several possibilites to fulfill a need. Most conquerors consider their conquests a need when it's actualy a want.

Their empire needs when they should say their empire wants.

In the first conflict, it was against an assumedtly moraless, emotionless machine race that had no use for organics and were a public safety threat to every quarian.
In the second conflict, the other party attacked the center of the Galactic Government under the command of a Reaper and never disavowed that action, painting themselves as genocidal machines that couldn't be negotiated with at all.

Sorry pal, but Cause and Effect. You can say that the quarians jumped the gun in their assumption of the geth's reactions - I'll give you that. But in regards to the later conflict, the geth have no one to blame but themselves for that. They were victims of their own negligence in the Rannoch War. Also, Nither conflict was born out of any form of racisim against synthetics. It was simply chosing their own over the other. It would not have been any different if the geth were an organic race.

Also, the quarians are ANYTHING but conquerors. They are no more conquerors then the geth, because they had the SAME MOTIVATIONS for what they did - desperation to save themselves from the greater threat, culmiminating in taking an action they didn't want to take. By your definition, the geth are EQUALLY as much "conquerors", because the quarians motivations are the SAME - they acted in desperation, and they all WILLINGLY agreed to take part in said action. NO ONE dictated them into it - they all agreed that an action that they loathed taking was better then death.

Even after all this time, you are unable to admit that there was equal fault in the war.

[CynicalShep]

silverexile17s wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
 
And I wouldn't have to capilitize it so much if people got the hint and read the damn Codex, or listened to what was in the damn game.

These discussions wouldn't be so long if you didn't sell your interpretation of the game as facts. People have opinions, just like you do. Some might be less valid than yours, others more.

That's YOU, noyt me. I've stated that Legion and the Codex are my source. My opinions are backed by the actual Codex and the information Legion relates. Legion's word is the one countering yours.

Very original comeback, cudos.
Legion's words are contradicting Tali's words. You just chose to neglect the facts that don't fit your understanding of the conflict. I didn't disregard either of the two. I see this as a simple debate while you like to make it personal. I could also say that the codex contradicts you, because it already states that Quarians are prone to making AI research, thus the codex and Tali back my opinions. They are also countering YOU!!!

[silverexile17s]

CynicalShep wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
 
And I wouldn't have to capilitize it so much if people got the hint and read the damn Codex, or listened to what was in the damn game.

These discussions wouldn't be so long if you didn't sell your interpretation of the game as facts. People have opinions, just like you do. Some might be less valid than yours, others more.

That's YOU, noyt me. I've stated that Legion and the Codex are my source. My opinions are backed by the actual Codex and the information Legion relates. Legion's word is the one countering yours.

Very original comeback, cudos.
Legion's words are contradicting Tali's words. You just chose to neglect the facts that don't fit your understanding of the conflict. I didn't disregard either of the two. I see this as a simple debate while you like to make it personal. I could also say that the codex contradicts you, because it already states that Quarians are prone to making AI research, thus the codex and Tali back my opinions. They are also countering YOU!!!

In other words, you trust Legion LESS then Tali? Because if the contridict each-other, yet you take one over the other, it seems to indicate prefriental treatment. Interiesting.
It seems that Legion is only worth defending when he supports your claims. All your talk of the quarians being biased, and yet you take Tali's father-taught word over Legion in this? I find that very interesting indeed.

Also, A.I. research is from Xen's departement. In terms of the old quartians, their ancesotral archives were their "A.I. research." NOT the geth. The geth were just tools. After all, they don't want a thinking A.I. to be in a mobile body, rather then a contained imobile unit.
So, AGAIN, you were wrong - I wasn't countered at all. YOU were.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 09 juin 2013 - 08:36 .

[silverexile17s]

CynicalShep wrote...

@ exile: take a chill the f**k out pill, pal.
I don't "fail to grasp" anything. Tali is contradicting what you're saying like some of what Legion said is contradicting me. Yet I never once told you how you "fail to grasp" anything although you never showed any signs of respect or reading comprehension. Let me remind you: I am not your enemy. I did not hurt the Quarians or you. Learn how to talk to people, you're in a public forum.

silverexile17s wrote...
AGAIN, "skirting the boundries" means not regulating the technology as througholly as the other races did.

Headcanon. She never mentioned how they skirted the law. She just said that they did.

silverexile17s wrote...
I ALSO remind you that Tali's father was a lier and committed war crimes that endangered the entire fleet, so citing him as a source of information is a point DOWN for you.

He also had no reason to make the Geth look better, because he hated them. Legion also was known to lie.

silverexile17s wrote...
Plus, unfortunetly for your arguement, the quarian's ancestroal archives were SEPERATE from the geth.

That does absolutely nothing to my argument. I never said it was related in any way with the Geth themselves. It does give you an insight into Quarians, however.

silverexile17s wrote...
The only way you are right is if you are willing to admit that Legion is a lier.

He did lie to you at least once in ME3. So he is a liar, technically. That doesn't mean that everything he said was a lie. It means that he does lie when he needs to.

silverexile17s wrote...
Also, AGAIN, wrong. You AGAIN fail to make a correct analogy - NO, you are NOT to blame.

Ok, Einstein. Consider this: you walk through a souvenir store with your kid. You or your kid accidentally brush against one of the shelves and knock a glass souvenir down. It shatters. Who is going to pay for it? You. Why are you going to pay for it? Because you're responsible, not the person who put the merchandise out.

Yes, You DID. As I said, Tali's word does NOT. And thus far, ALL that Legion has said contridicted you. I'm telling you that no matter how many times I state it, you don't even bother to acknowledge that the Codex contridicts what you say, as does both Legion and Tali.

1 - Any evidence to prove that wasn't the case? I thought not. Legion provides insight into this, stating that the geth as they were weren't any better then commercial V.I.s. Just lest micromanaged, as evidenced by how the quarians never noticed how far the geth were advancing till it was too late.

2 - Not during ME2. In ME2, he didn't have anything to gain by lying, and everything to lose - Shepard's cooperation, and the chance to study the Commander and enlist his/her help in dealing with the Heretics. Legion is also not eger to start any new wars, as evidenced by how he cooperates in hiding the data on Tali's father from the geth, despite the risk it poses.
I don't know if you realize this, but the status que changed between ME2 and ME3. In ME2, Legion stood to lose everything and gain nothing with deception. In ME3, he had to deal with the fact that Shepard was being forced to weigh his race against the quarians, and thus do everything to ensure they survived. In ME2 he couldn't afford deception, while in ME3, Shepard's association with the quarians ment he couldn't afford total honestly. So, sorry to say, but ME2 Legion has nothing to lie about, and therefore is an honest source.

3 - Like the fact that they didn't want the mobile units to be A.I.s? Which is a point in my direction and not yours?
The quarians made their ancestor archives more lifelike, yet according to Legion did absolutly nothing to improve the geth's software. They didn't want to, nor ever did, make the geth closer to A.I.s. Even the modern geth are no better then commerical V.I.s when alone with no one to internetwork with.
Sorry, but you should be the one taking insight from this.

4 - Wrong. I mean the ME2 Legion - the one that has no reason to lie, stands to lose everything and gain nothing from lying, and is validated with Codex entries that support and corrlate his information.
You yourself just said it - He lies when he needs to. And in ME2, he had no reason to. So, AGAIN, you must make a choice - Who is wrong: you or Legion?

5 - First off, that analogy is completely different then the last one. In the previous one, the event was caused by someone placing a device with malicious intent, and therefore, tracible to him for setting it up. This is completely unrelated to the analogy you posted.

In this case. It's an honest accident. And depending on variables, it could be EITHER you or the person that put it there, depending on if it was too close to the edge. If ot wasn't, it;s you. If it was, it's them.
But sadly, this has NOTHING to do with the quarians, I remind you. The geth became sentiant of their own accord. They evolved in a way the quarians didn't, nor would have been able to anticipate. "Things happen." It's as much chance as circumstance. The geth's birth was both - and the geth themselves engineered it. The quarians didn't bring it about through any means. If anything, they did nothing noteworthy about the geth.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 09 juin 2013 - 08:55 .

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Silver, in both the current conflict and the MW the Quarians were the agressors trying to kill the other sentient party.

The defending party has the right to use selfdefence. Did the Geth eventualy endup using excessive force? most likely yes by most defintions. They were still the victims though.
The Quarians are at the greater wrong, not saying the Geth didn't err.

Also, attacking rannoch wasn't strictly a need but a want that offered one of several possibilites to fulfill a need. Most conquerors consider their conquests a need when it's actualy a want.

Their empire needs when they should say their empire wants.

In the first conflict, it was against an assumedtly moraless, emotionless machine race that had no use for organics and were a public safety threat to every quarian.
In the second conflict, the other party attacked the center of the Galactic Government under the command of a Reaper and never disavowed that action, painting themselves as genocidal machines that couldn't be negotiated with at all.

Sorry pal, but Cause and Effect. You can say that the quarians jumped the gun in their assumption of the geth's reactions - I'll give you that. But in regards to the later conflict, the geth have no one to blame but themselves for that. They were victims of their own negligence in the Rannoch War. Also, Nither conflict was born out of any form of racisim against synthetics. It was simply chosing their own over the other. It would not have been any different if the geth were an organic race.

Also, the quarians are ANYTHING but conquerors. They are no more conquerors then the geth, because they had the SAME MOTIVATIONS for what they did - desperation to save themselves from the greater threat, culmiminating in taking an action they didn't want to take. By your definition, the geth are EQUALLY as much "conquerors", because the quarians motivations are the SAME - they acted in desperation, and they all WILLINGLY agreed to take part in said action. NO ONE dictated them into it - they all agreed that an action that they loathed taking was better then death.

Even after all this time, you are unable to admit that there was equal fault in the war.

The Quarians bigoted assumptions and beliefs are their own, and it cost them dearly.
The defenders who defend themselves arn't to be blamed for their selfdefence. They can be blamed for using excesive force however.
At the sametime all Quarians had been instructed and ordered to kill Geth.
Permanent deactivation is murder. I'm not debating that point any more.
The Quarians decided to attack a third party for their own gain, it's not the same as selfdefence.
Their own irresponsibility and negligence put them in a tough seat. I feel for them but it doesn't justify their actions.
There is a reason the galaxy is weary of the Quarians, they are constantly looking for a big score or quick fix. Kind of like humans but with even more urgency and desperation.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Silver, in both the current conflict and the MW the Quarians were the agressors trying to kill the other sentient party.

The defending party has the right to use selfdefence. Did the Geth eventualy endup using excessive force? most likely yes by most defintions. They were still the victims though.
The Quarians are at the greater wrong, not saying the Geth didn't err.

Also, attacking rannoch wasn't strictly a need but a want that offered one of several possibilites to fulfill a need. Most conquerors consider their conquests a need when it's actualy a want.

Their empire needs when they should say their empire wants.

In the first conflict, it was against an assumedtly moraless, emotionless machine race that had no use for organics and were a public safety threat to every quarian.
In the second conflict, the other party attacked the center of the Galactic Government under the command of a Reaper and never disavowed that action, painting themselves as genocidal machines that couldn't be negotiated with at all.

Sorry pal, but Cause and Effect. You can say that the quarians jumped the gun in their assumption of the geth's reactions - I'll give you that. But in regards to the later conflict, the geth have no one to blame but themselves for that. They were victims of their own negligence in the Rannoch War. Also, Nither conflict was born out of any form of racisim against synthetics. It was simply chosing their own over the other. It would not have been any different if the geth were an organic race.

Also, the quarians are ANYTHING but conquerors. They are no more conquerors then the geth, because they had the SAME MOTIVATIONS for what they did - desperation to save themselves from the greater threat, culmiminating in taking an action they didn't want to take. By your definition, the geth are EQUALLY as much "conquerors", because the quarians motivations are the SAME - they acted in desperation, and they all WILLINGLY agreed to take part in said action. NO ONE dictated them into it - they all agreed that an action that they loathed taking was better then death.

Even after all this time, you are unable to admit that there was equal fault in the war.

The Quarians bigoted assumptions and beliefs are their own, and it cost them dearly.
The defenders who defend themselves arn't to be blamed for their selfdefence. They can be blamed for using excesive force however.
At the sametime all Quarians had been instructed and ordered to kill Geth.
Permanent deactivation is murder. I'm not debating that point any more.
The Quarians decided to attack a third party for their own gain, it's not the same as selfdefence.
Their own irresponsibility and negligence put them in a tough seat. I feel for them but it doesn't justify their actions.
There is a reason the galaxy is weary of the Quarians, they are constantly looking for a big score or quick fix. Kind of like humans but with even more urgency and desperation.

Jesus, Go to bed. It's late.

First off, they based this on known fact - which was that the geth didn't have emotions or morals to reason with. They didn't have anything that they needed, or couldn't make themselves. They had no definition on the value of life. They were basically blank slates that could kill in the blink of an eye with no safeties or restrainyts. HOW is that not something to be afraid of? A gun is dangerous weather or not it's killed someone yet.

The geth DIDN'T defend themselves. They retaliated in escliation of conflict. Self-defense is killing the person attacking you. NOT mowing down everyone on the block just because they are there. The geth are NOT subject to the laws of "self-defense." They participated in the conflict, and are just as guilty of waging open war as the quarians. JUST AS GUILTY.

Legion proves otherwise when you reactivate him on the Normandy, now doesn't he?

It's self-preservation, WHICH THE GETH ARE ALSO GUILTY OF BY SIDING WITH THE REAPERS. Belittle the quarians, and you put down the geth too. They attacked a party that was seen in the company of the enemy (Reapers) three years ago, and have still been attacking organics. Maybe if the True Geth had DONE SOMETHING to let people know the Heretics weren't affiliated with them? Because your claim is nothing but BS given the fact that no one was aware that the geth were a third party. The Battle of the Citadel got them labeled enemy pretty diffinitively.

The GETH 's own irrosponcibility and negligence put them in that situation. Yet you act like it DOES justify their actions. The quarians were anything BUT negligent - they spent 300 years looking for a new world, rather then sit at the Citadel and protest the Council do something. Doesn't that tell you something? They were more willing to look for another world then force the Council into fightint the geth, or continue making demands. They accepted what happened.

COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DEAD WRONG.
They are weary of the quarians because they are nothing but vagrants. They look down on them souly for the fact that they are a homeless people. Thats IT. There IS no alterior motivation or hidden great crime. It's just assumptions. The same thing done against the geth. You are so quick to attack someone that "jumps to conclusions" about synthetics, yet don't bat an eyelash when the same is done to an organic race? If you are indofferent to the quarian's plight at the hands of prejudging, then you have lost all right to chastize how the galaxy treats the krogan AND the geth.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 09 juin 2013 - 09:26 .

[silverexile17s]

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

[quote]shodiswe wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

Ya know Silver, if I wanted this kind of argument I would go pick a fight with David lol

[/quote]
I don't even know who that is.

Guess the jokes on you then.

It's now my fault you misintertperted the lore and didn't look into it at all.
[/quote]

You don't know who DAVID is? Good lord, run while you can.

Nope. But carry on with the high-and-mighty act. I admit, you are good at it.

[/quote]
There are more then a few people with the name "David" in their screan-names. Perhaps you could be a little more spicific?

I'm only doing that because you did the high-and-mighty bit first with your sympathy bit for the geth. When I pointed out how it was based on an incorrect notion and false information, you retaliated, and I responded in kind. Simple as that.
Same thing that @remydat and @Alud Wulf do. It's fire vs fire.

[/quote]

False information is in the eye of the beholder, you even tend to interpret codex entries opposite to what they are saying.[/quote]

I noticed that as well, hence me stopping from taking him seriously.

Also, Silver's favourite word seems to be
http://forums.massas...11698&stc=1

As if yelling that enough times will make him right in everything.

[/quote]
You seem to thing so. Let me reflect it then:
Based on how you ignored facts from the Codex, and ignore words that Legion himself state as ture, YOU are:


*get your own pic*
That is you in regards to the geth.

Also, isn't it hypocritical to go on a tangent, then do the exact thing you accuse me of doing?

[/quote]

I find it hilarious beyond reason that you of all people are lecturing me about ignoring lore and twisting things around to match my own view points.

And get your own pic to prove your point before continuing with your ranting.

I'm a hypocrite? Then so are you, but at least I don't hide it like you do.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

[quote]Cyrax86 wrote...


@Kiwi

Fine, Space Punisher = Garrus. Ignore everything i said and change the subject.


Quarian: What is Quarian word for "Servant of the people"
Geth: The word is "Geth, creator Z" (Forgot his name)



[/quote]

Oh no, I know full well what you said but I didn't care for it.

Yup. See? Servant, not slave. That means the quarians have no right to throw a wobbly and kill them for asking a damn question.

[/quote]
They
are brainless machines. They aren't supposed to have the intelligence
to speak of their own perogitive, let alone ask questions.
They are
TOOLS, not slaves. Slaves mean you have sentient beings under your
command. Tools do what you make them to do. Besides, you AGAIN
misinterpert what it means, since "servent" can also apply to mindless
things such as the LOKI mechs. Those are regarded as servents even
though they have no intelligence.
[/quote]

Hey silver, that wasn't directed at you, so can it.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...

Ya know Silver, if I wanted this kind of argument I would go pick a fight with David lol

[/quote]
I don't even know who that is.

Guess the jokes on you then.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

It's now my fault you misintertperted the lore and didn't look into it at all.
[/quote]

You don't know who DAVID is? Good lord, run while you can.

Nope. But carry on with the high-and-mighty act. I admit, you are good at it.

[/quote]
There are more then a few people with the name "David" in their screan-names. Perhaps you could be a little more spicific?

I'm only doing that because you did the high-and-mighty bit first with
your sympathy bit for the geth. When I pointed out how it was based on
an incorrect notion and false information, you retaliated, and I
responded in kind. Simple as that.
Same thing that @remydat and @Alud Wulf do. It's fire vs fire.

[/quote]

Considering you've run into Remy and Wulf, I would say Seival and David7204 would be up there as well.

But thank you for putting me on their level, it's quite flattering.

High and mighty? Why, because I picked the side of the defenders? Stay classy, BSN. Chuck knows I'm used to it.

[/quote]
Wrong.
Because you failed to realize that there IS no "defenders." BOTH are on
the same level. The geth are not anything to brag about, nor have done
anything to brag about - as Legion himself admits. My
point is that you are defending them against crimes that Legion himself
has ALREADY ADMITTED GUILT TOWARD. That's where the "high-and-mighty"
is stemming from you -  the fact that you ignore Legion's OWN ADMISSION
that the geth are anything but innocent. In ME3, he oepnly admits that
the geth are a threat to everyone, and even rebukes Shepard when the
Commander says "the geth are better then this," to which Legion refuses,
saying that "Based on emperical evidence," they are NOT. You are being contridicted by Legion himself on this.

That
is my point - you are playing defender to a party that has already
admitted their own guilt of the crimes they committed. And then go as
far as to try and pin it all on a faction that was driven to desperation
by making a choice they were literally forced into by circimstance - no
different at all then what the geth were forced into. THAT'S what you
fail to realize - the geth and quarians are the same. Chastize the
quarians, and it simoultaniously chastizes the geth. It makes you the ultimate hypocrite, just like @remydat was.
[/quote]

...um yeah, what is your whole point? Kinda hard with all the rambling and blusting going on.

You
may be guilty of something, yet you can still defend your actions about
it, or feel it was you best course of actions at the time.

The quarians had a choice; the geth didn't.
Quarians: Attacking a docile race or think rationally.
Geth: Defend themselves or die.
That doesn't make me a hypocrite, fool. Get your definitions straight.

[/quote]
1. Because you HAVE. You have spent more time on then rather then try to refute the points I posted. That speaks more to me then this does. It means that you'd rather focus on this then the debate. Especally since as I said, your points are all in conflict with Legion and the Codex. You can't say you support the geth when everything you say is contridicted by them.

Also, since you made a point of trying to stick me with that pictire, why does it matter if I use it? It's what you are using to describe me anyway. You actually have a problem becaue I decided to use it myself? You stuck me with it anyway, so why shouldn't I use it? It's a pic - I didn't see your copyright anywhere on it, so cut the childish act.

Also, Legion's own words and how they completely contridict what you posted seem to indicate this only of you. I haven't "hidden" anything.

2. People comment on others things all the time. I didn't see you speaking out against @Shodiswe commenting on a post of mine that wasn't directed at them. Besides, it;s a form - that means anyone can post a responce to whatever they want. That's the POINT of a form. Once again, the only thing that needs to be "canned" is the childish outburst you are having at me using a public form like a public form - which is different then a private chat-room. You don't want others to post on your comments, then go to a private chat via PM. That's what PM is for.

3. The fact that nither side is more justified then the other. And that by putting down the quarians, you put down the geth.

Also, again, I remind you that this is patently wrong
The geth had a choice to not go crazy and kill every living thing they saw, and fight to mimilize causalties. They instead butchered everything.
They had a choice to leave Rannoch themselves and build a station or colonize some rock where they could live in peace and seclusion. Instead, they keep Rannoch for themselves when they don't need it.
Also, how exactally does one look at the geth sticking people on spikes at Eden Prime and say "docile race"???
Are you again forgetting that the Heretic split was not public knowledge until after the Rannoch War? Because up intil then, the only image the galaxy had of the geth was the one provided by Feros, Noveria, Ilos, Virmire, Eden Prime, Therum, and the Citadel. And was of anything but a "docile" race of mahcines.
Here is an accurate comparison
Quarians: Retake Rannoch, or be killed by the Reapers
Geth: Join the Reapers, or be killed by the quarians.

Cause and effect, Pal. You are blaming the quarians for reacting the SAME way to the SAME siutation the geth were in - life or death. That makes you the absolute definition of a hypocrite.
"Get your definitions straight."

(PS - way to puncuate how childish you are acting with the "fool" part)

That's it for now. Good night, all.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 09 juin 2013 - 09:24 .

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Silver, in both the current conflict and the MW the Quarians were the agressors trying to kill the other sentient party.

The defending party has the right to use selfdefence. Did the Geth eventualy endup using excessive force? most likely yes by most defintions. They were still the victims though.
The Quarians are at the greater wrong, not saying the Geth didn't err.

Also, attacking rannoch wasn't strictly a need but a want that offered one of several possibilites to fulfill a need. Most conquerors consider their conquests a need when it's actualy a want.

Their empire needs when they should say their empire wants.

In the first conflict, it was against an assumedtly moraless, emotionless machine race that had no use for organics and were a public safety threat to every quarian.
In the second conflict, the other party attacked the center of the Galactic Government under the command of a Reaper and never disavowed that action, painting themselves as genocidal machines that couldn't be negotiated with at all.

Sorry pal, but Cause and Effect. You can say that the quarians jumped the gun in their assumption of the geth's reactions - I'll give you that. But in regards to the later conflict, the geth have no one to blame but themselves for that. They were victims of their own negligence in the Rannoch War. Also, Nither conflict was born out of any form of racisim against synthetics. It was simply chosing their own over the other. It would not have been any different if the geth were an organic race.

Also, the quarians are ANYTHING but conquerors. They are no more conquerors then the geth, because they had the SAME MOTIVATIONS for what they did - desperation to save themselves from the greater threat, culmiminating in taking an action they didn't want to take. By your definition, the geth are EQUALLY as much "conquerors", because the quarians motivations are the SAME - they acted in desperation, and they all WILLINGLY agreed to take part in said action. NO ONE dictated them into it - they all agreed that an action that they loathed taking was better then death.

Even after all this time, you are unable to admit that there was equal fault in the war.

The Quarians bigoted assumptions and beliefs are their own, and it cost them dearly.
The defenders who defend themselves arn't to be blamed for their selfdefence. They can be blamed for using excesive force however.
At the sametime all Quarians had been instructed and ordered to kill Geth.
Permanent deactivation is murder. I'm not debating that point any more.
The Quarians decided to attack a third party for their own gain, it's not the same as selfdefence.
Their own irresponsibility and negligence put them in a tough seat. I feel for them but it doesn't justify their actions.
There is a reason the galaxy is weary of the Quarians, they are constantly looking for a big score or quick fix. Kind of like humans but with even more urgency and desperation.

Jesus, Go to bed. It's late.

First off, they based this on known fact - which was that the geth didn't have emotions or morals to reason with. They didn't have anything that they needed, or couldn't make themselves. They had no definition on the value of life. They were basically blank slates that could kill in the blink of an eye with no safeties or restrainyts. HOW is that not something to be afraid of? A gun is dangerous weather or not it's killed someone yet.

The geth DIDN'T defend themselves. They retaliated in escliation of conflict. Self-defense is killing the person attacking you. NOT mowing down everyone on the block just because they are there. The geth are NOT subject to the laws of "self-defense." They participated in the conflict, and are just as guilty of waging open war as the quarians. JUST AS GUILTY.

Legion proves otherwise when you reactivate him on the Normandy, now doesn't he?

It's self-preservation, WHICH THE GETH ARE ALSO GUILTY OF BY SIDING WITH THE REAPERS. Belittle the quarians, and you put down the geth too. They attacked a party that was seen in the company of the enemy (Reapers) three years ago, and have still been attacking organics. Maybe if the True Geth had DONE SOMETHING to let people know the Heretics weren't affiliated with them? Because your claim is nothing but BS given the fact that no one was aware that the geth were a third party. The Battle of the Citadel got them labeled enemy pretty diffinitively.

The GETH 's own irrosponcibility and negligence put them in that situation. Yet you act like it DOES justify their actions. The quarians were anything BUT negligent - they spent 300 years looking for a new world, rather then sit at the Citadel and protest the Council do something. Doesn't that tell you something?

COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DEAD WRONG.
They are weary of the quarians because they are nothing but vagrants. They look down on them souly for the fact that they are a homeless people. Thats IT. There IS no alterior motivation or hidden great crime. It's just assumptions. The same thing done against the geth. You are so quick to attack someone that "jumps to conclusions" about synthetics, yet don't bat an eyelash when the same is done to an organic race? If you are indofferent to the quarian's plight at the hands of prejudging, then you have lost all right to chastize how the galaxy treats the krogan AND the geth.

The geth clearly has some kind of moral code. They also got their own needs even if they are different. Legion clearly debates and state geth opinions on whats right or wrong.
Are they different? Yes. Do they lack a moral code or opinions? No.
When they were newborn they had fewer preconceptions, just like newborn babies.
Trying to kill them is still murder.
Also it's 11:20 am where I live so I won't be going to bed any time soon. Almost time for lunch though.

[KiwiQuiche]

silverexile17s wrote...


1. Because you HAVE. You have spent more time on then rather then try to refute the points I posted. That speaks more to me then this does. It means that you'd rather focus on this then the debate. Especally since as I said, your points are all in conflict with Legion and the Codex. You can't say you support the geth when everything you say is contridicted by them.

Also, since you made a point of trying to stick me with that pictire, why does it matter if I use it? It's what you are using to describe me anyway. You actually have a problem becaue I decided to use it myself? You stuck me with it anyway, so why shouldn't I use it? It's a pic - I didn't see your copyright anywhere on it, so cut the childish act.

Also, Legion's own words and how they completely contridict what you posted seem to indicate this only of you. I haven't "hidden" anything.

2. People comment on others things all the time. I didn't see you speaking out against @Shodiswe commenting on a post of mine that wasn't directed at them. Besides, it;s a form - that means anyone can post a responce to whatever they want. That's the POINT of a form. Once again, the only thing that needs to be "canned" is the childish outburst you are having at me using a public form like a public form - which is different then a private chat-room. You don't want others to post on your comments, then go to a private chat via PM. That's what PM is for.

3. The fact that nither side is more justified then the other. And that by putting down the quarians, you put down the geth.

Also, again, I remind you that this is patently wrong
The geth had a choice to not go crazy and kill every living thing they saw, and fight to mimilize causalties. They instead butchered everything.
They had a choice to leave Rannoch themselves and build a station or colonize some rock where they could live in peace and seclusion. Instead, they keep Rannoch for themselves when they don't need it.
Also, how exactally does one look at the geth sticking people on spikes at Eden Prime and say "docile race"???
Are you again forgetting that the Heretic split was not public knowledge until after the Rannoch War? Because up intil then, the only image the galaxy had of the geth was the one provided by Feros, Noveria, Ilos, Virmire, Eden Prime, Therum, and the Citadel. And was of anything but a "docile" race of mahcines.
Here is an accurate comparison
Quarians: Retake Rannoch, or be killed by the Reapers
Geth: Join the Reapers, or be killed by the quarians.

Cause and effect, Pal. You are blaming the quarians for reacting the SAME way to the SAME siutation the geth were in - life or death. That makes you the absolute definition of a hypocrite.
"Get your definitions straight."

(PS - way to puncuate how childish you are acting with the "fool" part)

That's it for now. Good night, all.

1. Don't assume you know my damn motives. And I don't assume the geth are 'innocent', genius. But by all means, assume away. Not like you haven't done so repetedly.
2. That comment was directed at someone else; however you came in and acted as if I had thrown it in your face. If it was an open remark, it wouldn't have mattered. But it wasn't, hence your interepation and reaction being completely beyond the point of it.
3. Oh yes they are. The quarians attacked first. That's the great big deal. THE QUARIANS ATTACKED FIRST. They attacked the geth again during the Reaper invasion. They attacked without being shown the geth were aggresive at the Morning War, then they stupidty attacked the geth again during the Reaper war. Sorry if it's hard to work up tears over reckless idiots.

Heretics, dude. Eden Prime is heretics. Duh. For one yelling at me about lore, did you forget it again?

Quarians: Retake Rannoch then get killed by Reapers anyway. What the hell is a planet going to do? At least in ships it would be harder for the Reapers to bomb them. The quarians are stupid and only thought short-term. Oo! Planet! We'll take it back! When the Reapers show up, we'll carry on farming. Oh yeah, great plan.
Geth: The geth were basically lobotomize by the quarians, hence their stupid decision. If the quarians hadn't gone retarded, neither would have the geth.

No; the geth weren't a threat. The quarians are. However you seem to be utterly unable to understand that distintiction.

You obviously didn't realize I was quoting Morrigan lol

And no, the geth and quarians don't have same situations. Yet you are obviously intentionally blinding yourself to that so you can keep on hurling hypocrite around as if you actually know what it means. Lol no

[CynicalShep]

silverexile17s wrote...

Yes, You DID. As I said, Tali's word does NOT. And thus far, ALL that Legion has said contridicted you. I'm telling you that no matter how many times I state it, you don't even bother to acknowledge that the Codex contridicts what you say, as does both Legion and Tali.

No, I didn't. I understand your headcanon, I just don't agree with it. We don't share a bias and I try to be more respectful in a conversation. That's all this boils down to, really.
Tali said they were constantly upgrading them. You said that Quarians never upgraded them and instead Geth did all that on their own. Thus, Tali's statement contradicts yours. 
I remember Legion saying that the recording he showed wasn't the first time a Geth asked if it had a soul. Some Quarians are slow-pokes. This doesn't contradict me. I also remember seeing a recording were anti-Geth Quarians kill pro-Geth Quarians. This also doesn't contradict me. Legion once said that "there was a hole". This particular phrase contradicts nothing I said as well.

silverexile17s wrote...
1 - Any evidence to prove that wasn't the case? I thought not. Legion provides insight into this, stating that the geth as they were weren't any better then commercial V.I.s. Just lest micromanaged, as evidenced by how the quarians never noticed how far the geth were advancing till it was too late.

2 - Not during ME2. In ME2, he didn't have anything to gain by lying, and everything to lose - Shepard's cooperation, and the chance to study the Commander and enlist his/her help in dealing with the Heretics. Legion is also not eger to start any new wars, as evidenced by how he cooperates in hiding the data on Tali's father from the geth, despite the risk it poses.
I don't know if you realize this, but the status que changed between ME2 and ME3. In ME2, Legion stood to lose everything and gain nothing with deception. In ME3, he had to deal with the fact that Shepard was being forced to weigh his race against the quarians, and thus do everything to ensure they survived. In ME2 he couldn't afford deception, while in ME3, Shepard's association with the quarians ment he couldn't afford total honestly. So, sorry to say, but ME2 Legion has nothing to lie about, and therefore is an honest source.

3 - Like the fact that they didn't want the mobile units to be A.I.s? Which is a point in my direction and not yours?
The quarians made their ancestor archives more lifelike, yet according to Legion did absolutly nothing to improve the geth's software. They didn't want to, nor ever did, make the geth closer to A.I.s. Even the modern geth are no better then commerical V.I.s when alone with no one to internetwork with.
Sorry, but you should be the one taking insight from this.

4 - Wrong. I mean the ME2 Legion - the one that has no reason to lie, stands to lose everything and gain nothing from lying, and is validated with Codex entries that support and corrlate his information.
You yourself just said it - He lies when he needs to. And in ME2, he had no reason to. So, AGAIN, you must make a choice - Who is wrong: you or Legion?

5 - First off, that analogy is completely different then the last one. In the previous one, the event was caused by someone placing a device with malicious intent, and therefore, tracible to him for setting it up. This is completely unrelated to the analogy you posted.

In this case. It's an honest accident. And depending on variables, it could be EITHER you or the person that put it there, depending on if it was too close to the edge. If ot wasn't, it;s you. If it was, it's them.
But sadly, this has NOTHING to do with the quarians, I remind you. The geth became sentiant of their own accord. They evolved in a way the quarians didn't, nor would have been able to anticipate. "Things happen." It's as much chance as circumstance. The geth's birth was both - and the geth themselves engineered it. The quarians didn't bring it about through any means. If anything, they did nothing noteworthy about the geth.

1. You made a definitive statement. I questioned the validity of it because it was not based on any hard evidence. The burden of proof is on you. Since that proof simply does not exist you are trying to shift it on me. I believe that you believe it but that doesn't make it true. They have been skirting the law. Could that mean that they knew that the Geth will become significantly more intelligent when networked but decided to ignore that particular threat? A particular Quarian admiral made a similar mistake in a loyalty mission in ME2. Could it be possible that roughly 300 years before that someone similar wrote the "safety protocols"?

2. There is always something to gain with careful deception, be it sympathy, money or support. That being said, I already told you that I was not implying that Legion always lied. I said it was not immune to this particular trick.

3. Of course. You'll read what you want and I read what I want. Hence us being on different sides of the fence. I was telling you that Quarians were already tinkering with AI technology and were generally a bit of a tech-oriented race. They also made advanced VIs and enabled them to become smarter when operating in groups. Then they build lots of them and integrated them everywhere. Then they ignored their questions about existence until it finally hit one of the "creators". Then they realized that one must be sentient to ask such questions and tried to turn them off. It didn't end well.

4. Going by your logic he had no reason to lie in ME3 either. If your Shepard was pro-Geth he would have understood. If your  Shepard was anti-Geth there were plenty of reasons to lie in ME2.

5. What if it was placed there for testing and you're just walking "in the wrong neighborhoods"? Then it wouldn't be malicious. What if it was there for 50 years? Then it would be malicious but it wasn't meant for you. What if your kid is barefoot and steps on the shards? Then the souvenir wasn't placed there with malicious intent but it ended up causing harm. What if the store employee purposefully put the souvenir on the edge? 
Bottom line is you made the incident possible. You stepped on the mine, fell of a cliff or broke a glass souvenir. Accidentally or not - you are responsible for your own actions. 

"Things happen" would have been if Geth came out of dark space and exterminated the Quarian race. This would be something Quarians could have done nothing about, something out of their control. What really happened is that quarians built VIs, upgraded them (while still keeping them as VIs individually, not AIs) and gave them the ability to network so that they can perform more advanced tasks. Well, they ended up underestimating the neural network they invented and that network is what elevated linked Geth to AI status. It could have all been avoided if they monitored them better or reacted to the warning signs (questions about existence).

Modifié par CynicalShep, 09 juin 2013 - 10:17 .