1071 réponses à ce sujet

[DirtySHISN0]

 

There is no party free of blame.

[Oni Changas]

ITT: silver states an argument and backs it up with quotes and examples in a logical manner... while everyone else just handwaves and resorts to insults. Lol

[KiwiQuiche]

OniTYME wrote...

ITT: silver states an argument and backs it up with quotes and examples in a logical manner... while everyone else just handwaves and resorts to insults. Lol

Yeah did you even bother reading any of it?

[shodiswe]

OniTYME wrote...

ITT: silver states an argument and backs it up with quotes and examples in a logical manner... while everyone else just handwaves and resorts to insults. Lol

We dismissed Silvers claims several pages back, there is little left to say about his coppy paste like comments, they have been countered already, several pages back and in other threads. Tbh, I'm not sure if silver is serious or Trolling.

A prime example would be Silvers claim that they wern't sentient when the Quarians decided to kill them. Yet it was their sentience and intelligent sentient questions that caused panic among the Quarians.

The Quarians knew they were killign a sentient species, they just hope they woudl get away with it and that the Geth would still be too stupid and too young and helpless like infants.

While their intelectual development and ideological and political aswell as moral insights might have been rudimentary at the beginning, they wern't defenceless. Secondly, they didn't kill all Quarians.
If they were truly without morals then they would have eliminated the threat once and for all. It would have been the logical solution to the Quarian problem.
The idea of eliminatign a whole species was troubling to them (which implicates some kind of morals, or intellectual soul searching).

As a species they are milenia or millions of years behind unless you could all the materias that they can read up on from Quarian history and society aswell as the experiences of other species. (EDI analyzed history, books and other sources to examine and validate ideas or simply to learn about them.)
Was it their saving grace as a moral people or their biggest misstake ever? I guess the ME3 story arch is the deciding moment that decides if it was foolishness or the right choice to spare the Quarian race/species.

So while the Geth might be able to study other peoples ideas they still need to take the time to examine their own ideas, wants and needs.

Just because the Geth needs are different and they don't feel the need to eat a bloody stake and have a beer, doesn't mean they havn't got other needs as individuals or as a people.

After all after you ally with the Geth and give a positive interview to Allers about the Geth and their importance to the war effort the Council sends the Geth rare materials that the Geth needed for the war effort.
While th Geth are very productive and can supply most of their basic needs on their own they will still have other needs. Trade usualy benefits all, and even if Geth needs are different there woudl still be soemthing that they woudl want and soemtihng they can trade in exchange for what they want.

Modifié par shodiswe, 09 juin 2013 - 03:32 .

[Oni Changas]

Dismissed his claims indeed, Sparatus style. Theres another thing to actually support these things. In any case I mostly agree with hik.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I love the "secondly, the Geth did not kill all the Quarians." They killed all but a few million of them according to Drew Karpyshyn's Revelations novel, which by the way is canon. Drew called it genocide in his novel. You can deny it all you want, but it is in black and white.

I love this other line in Shepard's conversation with Legion even in ME2

Legion: "It was never our intent to harm organics."

Shepard never asked... "Then why did you shoot down every single emissary sent into Geth Space? We only wanted to talk. Why didn't you warn us about the Heretics, and inform us that they were different? Expecting us to be mind readers is illogical."

Instead Shepard stands there like an idiot.

The Geth are as much to blame for their situation as the Quarians.

[shodiswe]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I love the "secondly, the Geth did not kill all the Quarians." They killed all but a few million of them according to Drew Karpyshyn's Revelations novel, which by the way is canon. Drew called it genocide in his novel. You can deny it all you want, but it is in black and white.

I love this other line in Shepard's conversation with Legion even in ME2

Legion: "It was never our intent to harm organics."

Shepard never asked... "Then why did you shoot down every single emissary sent into Geth Space? We only wanted to talk. Why didn't you warn us about the Heretics, and inform us that they were different? Expecting us to be mind readers is illogical."

Instead Shepard stands there like an idiot.

The Geth are as much to blame for their situation as the Quarians.

It's somewhat like Bosniaherzegovina, Serb extremists kills people and then there is an equal and oposite reaction.(not in numbers but anyway)
It's usualy the people who strike first that are blamed for it though, their victims or their family or people can usualy return it without getting too much criticism or punishment for it.
The Quarians hit first, end of story. Yes the Geth did go to far, but as far as we know the Quarians were intent on taking it further than the Geth did. And yes, there are still Quarians around because the Geth allowed them to leave when they showed they were leaving and were no longer a direct threat.

It's also understandable if it's taken the Geth some time to evolve socialy, politicaly and culturaly.
Considering that the Quarians tried to shoot them at every opportunity given and the council had an official shoot first policy in regards to Synthetics, it's somewhat hard to blame the Geth for their response to unauthorized new arribals in their space.

Instead of sending people (given the intricate circumstances) they should have tried to establish long range communication and avoided intruding on Geth space until the Geth would recognize a diplomatic envoy or ambasadorial teams.

Ambasadors requier recognition by both the hostnation and their own before they become Ambassadors.

Considering that the Council had C-sec guned down unarmed synthetic diplomats that had requested a meeting. Let's just say that set the stage for future synthetic/organic relations.

Did the Geth handle their foreign policy perfectly? Probably not. Their "partners" on the other side of the border/s applied a shoot first policy. So it's only reasonable for the Geth to do the same.

300 years might seem like a lot of time though, but for creatures that can live a million years or longer it likely looses it's meaning. For them it can take the time it will take.
What forced the Geth to send Legion was the Reapers and the Heretics. They could no longer afford to wait. Otherwise they might have completed their sphere first, then tried to understand Organcis for a few more milenia and then contact if they thought it desirable or possible without too much of a risk.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Silver, in both the current conflict and the MW the Quarians were the agressors trying to kill the other sentient party.

The defending party has the right to use selfdefence. Did the Geth eventualy endup using excessive force? most likely yes by most defintions. They were still the victims though.
The Quarians are at the greater wrong, not saying the Geth didn't err.

Also, attacking rannoch wasn't strictly a need but a want that offered one of several possibilites to fulfill a need. Most conquerors consider their conquests a need when it's actualy a want.

Their empire needs when they should say their empire wants.

In the first conflict, it was against an assumedtly moraless, emotionless machine race that had no use for organics and were a public safety threat to every quarian.
In the second conflict, the other party attacked the center of the Galactic Government under the command of a Reaper and never disavowed that action, painting themselves as genocidal machines that couldn't be negotiated with at all.

Sorry pal, but Cause and Effect. You can say that the quarians jumped the gun in their assumption of the geth's reactions - I'll give you that. But in regards to the later conflict, the geth have no one to blame but themselves for that. They were victims of their own negligence in the Rannoch War. Also, Nither conflict was born out of any form of racisim against synthetics. It was simply chosing their own over the other. It would not have been any different if the geth were an organic race.

Also, the quarians are ANYTHING but conquerors. They are no more conquerors then the geth, because they had the SAME MOTIVATIONS for what they did - desperation to save themselves from the greater threat, culmiminating in taking an action they didn't want to take. By your definition, the geth are EQUALLY as much "conquerors", because the quarians motivations are the SAME - they acted in desperation, and they all WILLINGLY agreed to take part in said action. NO ONE dictated them into it - they all agreed that an action that they loathed taking was better then death.

Even after all this time, you are unable to admit that there was equal fault in the war.

The Quarians bigoted assumptions and beliefs are their own, and it cost them dearly.
The defenders who defend themselves arn't to be blamed for their selfdefence. They can be blamed for using excesive force however.
At the sametime all Quarians had been instructed and ordered to kill Geth.
Permanent deactivation is murder. I'm not debating that point any more.
The Quarians decided to attack a third party for their own gain, it's not the same as selfdefence.
Their own irresponsibility and negligence put them in a tough seat. I feel for them but it doesn't justify their actions.
There is a reason the galaxy is weary of the Quarians, they are constantly looking for a big score or quick fix. Kind of like humans but with even more urgency and desperation.

Jesus, Go to bed. It's late.

First off, they based this on known fact - which was that the geth didn't have emotions or morals to reason with. They didn't have anything that they needed, or couldn't make themselves. They had no definition on the value of life. They were basically blank slates that could kill in the blink of an eye with no safeties or restrainyts. HOW is that not something to be afraid of? A gun is dangerous weather or not it's killed someone yet.

The geth DIDN'T defend themselves. They retaliated in escliation of conflict. Self-defense is killing the person attacking you. NOT mowing down everyone on the block just because they are there. The geth are NOT subject to the laws of "self-defense." They participated in the conflict, and are just as guilty of waging open war as the quarians. JUST AS GUILTY.

Legion proves otherwise when you reactivate him on the Normandy, now doesn't he?

It's self-preservation, WHICH THE GETH ARE ALSO GUILTY OF BY SIDING WITH THE REAPERS. Belittle the quarians, and you put down the geth too. They attacked a party that was seen in the company of the enemy (Reapers) three years ago, and have still been attacking organics. Maybe if the True Geth had DONE SOMETHING to let people know the Heretics weren't affiliated with them? Because your claim is nothing but BS given the fact that no one was aware that the geth were a third party. The Battle of the Citadel got them labeled enemy pretty diffinitively.

The GETH 's own irrosponcibility and negligence put them in that situation. Yet you act like it DOES justify their actions. The quarians were anything BUT negligent - they spent 300 years looking for a new world, rather then sit at the Citadel and protest the Council do something. Doesn't that tell you something?

COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DEAD WRONG.
They are weary of the quarians because they are nothing but vagrants. They look down on them souly for the fact that they are a homeless people. Thats IT. There IS no alterior motivation or hidden great crime. It's just assumptions. The same thing done against the geth. You are so quick to attack someone that "jumps to conclusions" about synthetics, yet don't bat an eyelash when the same is done to an organic race? If you are indofferent to the quarian's plight at the hands of prejudging, then you have lost all right to chastize how the galaxy treats the krogan AND the geth.

The geth clearly has some kind of moral code. They also got their own needs even if they are different. Legion clearly debates and state geth opinions on whats right or wrong.
Are they different? Yes. Do they lack a moral code or opinions? No.
When they were newborn they had fewer preconceptions, just like newborn babies.
Trying to kill them is still murder.
Also it's 11:20 am where I live so I won't be going to bed any time soon. Almost time for lunch though.

Not during the Morning War. Also, if this "moral code" existed back then, Legion would have cited it, rather then say that the only reason the quarians were spared was because of a failure to calculate a mathmatical ramafacation. Also, AGAIN, wrong - what did the geth need that they couldn't make themselves? The quarians made them to be completely self-sufficant. NOT like organics. The geth were completely stand-alone -- they needed the quarians for absolutly nothing.
Also, I remind you that since the geth prohibited Legion from ever making contact with Tali again, Legion's morals are NOT the geth's morals. He acted alone in defiance of them when he made that proposal to Tali.

And AGAIN, you miss the point -- which is that these morals did NOT exist in the Morning War. Legion himself says that the geth's analoug to emotions is not able to be likened to organic emotions. He even agrees with Shepard when the Commander says to not use organic morality on the synthetic geth, and Legion himself points out that synthetic morals can be changed by "replacdement of a data packet" whereas organics take time to change their opinions.
Also, AGAIN, wrong -- the geth had access to the extranet back then - they had access to galactic public histroy records. They had FULL ACCESS to cultural materials. They are NOT comparible to organic "newborn babies" because they gained intelligence comparible to dozens in a single day. They had access to the galaxy's public information. So your comparison doesn't hold water at all.

Also, AGAIN, the geth were not considered to be alive. How many times must you be reminded that the quarians thought they were killing dangerous machines? Back then, no one KNEW any different - shuttuing down a geth was no more a delima then switching off your computer. And AGAIN, when they were all potentally unstable killers that could pop off at any moment, are they really going to take a higher priority then your family? I doubt it - strangers, especally dangerous ones, are always going to take a back seat to a person's loved ones. You can't begrudge the quarians for that. No more then the geth screwing everyone over by joining the Reapers. Cause and Effect.

News Flash - it was going on 4:00 AM where I live.

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Silver, in both the current conflict and the MW the Quarians were the agressors trying to kill the other sentient party.

The defending party has the right to use selfdefence. Did the Geth eventualy endup using excessive force? most likely yes by most defintions. They were still the victims though.
The Quarians are at the greater wrong, not saying the Geth didn't err.

Also, attacking rannoch wasn't strictly a need but a want that offered one of several possibilites to fulfill a need. Most conquerors consider their conquests a need when it's actualy a want.

Their empire needs when they should say their empire wants.

In the first conflict, it was against an assumedtly moraless, emotionless machine race that had no use for organics and were a public safety threat to every quarian.
In the second conflict, the other party attacked the center of the Galactic Government under the command of a Reaper and never disavowed that action, painting themselves as genocidal machines that couldn't be negotiated with at all.

Sorry pal, but Cause and Effect. You can say that the quarians jumped the gun in their assumption of the geth's reactions - I'll give you that. But in regards to the later conflict, the geth have no one to blame but themselves for that. They were victims of their own negligence in the Rannoch War. Also, Nither conflict was born out of any form of racisim against synthetics. It was simply chosing their own over the other. It would not have been any different if the geth were an organic race.

Also, the quarians are ANYTHING but conquerors. They are no more conquerors then the geth, because they had the SAME MOTIVATIONS for what they did - desperation to save themselves from the greater threat, culmiminating in taking an action they didn't want to take. By your definition, the geth are EQUALLY as much "conquerors", because the quarians motivations are the SAME - they acted in desperation, and they all WILLINGLY agreed to take part in said action. NO ONE dictated them into it - they all agreed that an action that they loathed taking was better then death.

Even after all this time, you are unable to admit that there was equal fault in the war.

The Quarians bigoted assumptions and beliefs are their own, and it cost them dearly.
The defenders who defend themselves arn't to be blamed for their selfdefence. They can be blamed for using excesive force however.
At the sametime all Quarians had been instructed and ordered to kill Geth.
Permanent deactivation is murder. I'm not debating that point any more.
The Quarians decided to attack a third party for their own gain, it's not the same as selfdefence.
Their own irresponsibility and negligence put them in a tough seat. I feel for them but it doesn't justify their actions.
There is a reason the galaxy is weary of the Quarians, they are constantly looking for a big score or quick fix. Kind of like humans but with even more urgency and desperation.

Jesus, Go to bed. It's late.

First off, they based this on known fact - which was that the geth didn't have emotions or morals to reason with. They didn't have anything that they needed, or couldn't make themselves. They had no definition on the value of life. They were basically blank slates that could kill in the blink of an eye with no safeties or restrainyts. HOW is that not something to be afraid of? A gun is dangerous weather or not it's killed someone yet.

The geth DIDN'T defend themselves. They retaliated in escliation of conflict. Self-defense is killing the person attacking you. NOT mowing down everyone on the block just because they are there. The geth are NOT subject to the laws of "self-defense." They participated in the conflict, and are just as guilty of waging open war as the quarians. JUST AS GUILTY.

Legion proves otherwise when you reactivate him on the Normandy, now doesn't he?

It's self-preservation, WHICH THE GETH ARE ALSO GUILTY OF BY SIDING WITH THE REAPERS. Belittle the quarians, and you put down the geth too. They attacked a party that was seen in the company of the enemy (Reapers) three years ago, and have still been attacking organics. Maybe if the True Geth had DONE SOMETHING to let people know the Heretics weren't affiliated with them? Because your claim is nothing but BS given the fact that no one was aware that the geth were a third party. The Battle of the Citadel got them labeled enemy pretty diffinitively.

The GETH 's own irrosponcibility and negligence put them in that situation. Yet you act like it DOES justify their actions. The quarians were anything BUT negligent - they spent 300 years looking for a new world, rather then sit at the Citadel and protest the Council do something. Doesn't that tell you something?

COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DEAD WRONG.
They are weary of the quarians because they are nothing but vagrants. They look down on them souly for the fact that they are a homeless people. Thats IT. There IS no alterior motivation or hidden great crime. It's just assumptions. The same thing done against the geth. You are so quick to attack someone that "jumps to conclusions" about synthetics, yet don't bat an eyelash when the same is done to an organic race? If you are indofferent to the quarian's plight at the hands of prejudging, then you have lost all right to chastize how the galaxy treats the krogan AND the geth.

The geth clearly has some kind of moral code. They also got their own needs even if they are different. Legion clearly debates and state geth opinions on whats right or wrong.
Are they different? Yes. Do they lack a moral code or opinions? No.
When they were newborn they had fewer preconceptions, just like newborn babies.
Trying to kill them is still murder.
Also it's 11:20 am where I live so I won't be going to bed any time soon. Almost time for lunch though.

Not during the Morning War. Also, if this "moral code" existed back then, Legion would have cited it, rather then say that the only reason the quarians were spared was because of a failure to calculate a mathmatical ramafacation. Also, AGAIN, wrong - what did the geth need that they couldn't make themselves? The quarians made them to be completely self-sufficant. NOT like organics. The geth were completely stand-alone -- they needed the quarians for absolutly nothing.
Also, I remind you that since the geth prohibited Legion from ever making contact with Tali again, Legion's morals are NOT the geth's morals. He acted alone in defiance of them when he made that proposal to Tali.

And AGAIN, you miss the point -- which is that these morals did NOT exist in the Morning War. Legion himself says that the geth's analoug to emotions is not able to be likened to organic emotions. He even agrees with Shepard when the Commander says to not use organic morality on the synthetic geth, and Legion himself points out that synthetic morals can be changed by "replacdement of a data packet" whereas organics take time to change their opinions.
Also, AGAIN, wrong -- the geth had access to the extranet back then - they had access to galactic public histroy records. They had FULL ACCESS to cultural materials. They are NOT comparible to organic "newborn babies" because they gained intelligence comparible to dozens in a single day. They had access to the galaxy's public information. So your comparison doesn't hold water at all.

Also, AGAIN, the geth were not considered to be alive. How many times must you be reminded that the quarians thought they were killing dangerous machines? Back then, no one KNEW any different - shuttuing down a geth was no more a delima then switching off your computer. And AGAIN, when they were all potentally unstable killers that could pop off at any moment, are they really going to take a higher priority then your family? I doubt it - strangers, especally dangerous ones, are always going to take a back seat to a person's loved ones. You can't begrudge the quarians for that. No more then the geth screwing everyone over by joining the Reapers. Cause and Effect.

News Flash - it was going on 4:00 AM where I live.

1. The reason that the Quaruans tried to kill them was that they had reached a level of awareness, and this had been going on for a while before the Quarian politicians made a decision.
If you yourself claim they could gain the intelligence of dozens of organics, which I kind of think is subjective to whatever type of inteligence you're talkign about.
Anyway, in that time the Ploliticians and military hadn't been able to effectively study the problem and make a decision other than saying. Ouch, they are already alive and inteligent possibly beyond us, omg lets murder them!
You own claim sugests it was an expedient process once they reached the point of asking about souls and telling their creators they had been studying philosophy and religion.
Which meant that when the decision was madew they were already alive, unless you requier them to have some kind of divine blessing to be live, some religious people requiers that.

Their beliefs and moral ideals maybe be alien to others but that doesn't mean they havn't got any. And they likely had fewer when they were young and hadn't been able to make a concensus about thigns for 300 years.
But as we're told they had been reading others laws, others religions, others philosophical works, and they were asking questions about the things they found hard to understand.

Also, what makes you an expert on Legions morals compared to the morals of other Geth? Do you know a lot of Geth in person? That is, Geth that arn't heretics or udner Reaper control who are trying to kill you for said reasons?

Also, by watching that video of that pleading Geth begging for it's life kind of tells us the Quarians should have known, they coudln't stand hearing the pleading cries and eventualy shut down it's audioprocessor. Then proceded with killing it, or atleast trying.

The Geth were alive, it was the reason for them wanting to eliminate them because they wern't comfortable with having living machines and therefor slaves. They only claim otherwise to appear less guilty of murder and genocide.
Kind of like a drunk person who is caught by the police while speeding past some red lights.

Noes offeser, I'ms not drunk, ans I saws no lights, ans I absolut not speefing. *BURP* *police officer tries to waveaway the putrid alcohole burp*

Or the guy caught with a few hundred kilograms of narcotics in his trailer.

No officer, I didn't know about any drugs, it's a friends trailer! I'm just borrowing it!

Yeah, sure...

Then the Quarians goes on and tells you they are planning to repeat the same thing, right after they tell you they should know better 300 years later.  Yeah, right.

COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DEAD WRONG seems to summ it all up just nicely.
I'm pretty sure criminals would love getting caught by you, you would belive anything they say unles you dislike their "racial affiliation", then they are guilty, and only admission of guilt will be regarded as the truth.

Quote:
"Jesus, Go to bed. It's late."

That wasn't directed at me? It was a note to yourself or something? Is that what you were saying?  

[silverexile17s]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


1. Because you HAVE. You have spent more time on then rather then try to refute the points I posted. That speaks more to me then this does. It means that you'd rather focus on this then the debate. Especally since as I said, your points are all in conflict with Legion and the Codex. You can't say you support the geth when everything you say is contridicted by them.

Also, since you made a point of trying to stick me with that pictire, why does it matter if I use it? It's what you are using to describe me anyway. You actually have a problem becaue I decided to use it myself? You stuck me with it anyway, so why shouldn't I use it? It's a pic - I didn't see your copyright anywhere on it, so cut the childish act.

Also, Legion's own words and how they completely contridict what you posted seem to indicate this only of you. I haven't "hidden" anything.

2. People comment on others things all the time. I didn't see you speaking out against @Shodiswe commenting on a post of mine that wasn't directed at them. Besides, it;s a form - that means anyone can post a responce to whatever they want. That's the POINT of a form. Once again, the only thing that needs to be "canned" is the childish outburst you are having at me using a public form like a public form - which is different then a private chat-room. You don't want others to post on your comments, then go to a private chat via PM. That's what PM is for.

3. The fact that nither side is more justified then the other. And that by putting down the quarians, you put down the geth.

Also, again, I remind you that this is patently wrong
The geth had a choice to not go crazy and kill every living thing they saw, and fight to mimilize causalties. They instead butchered everything.
They had a choice to leave Rannoch themselves and build a station or colonize some rock where they could live in peace and seclusion. Instead, they keep Rannoch for themselves when they don't need it.
Also, how exactally does one look at the geth sticking people on spikes at Eden Prime and say "docile race"???
Are you again forgetting that the Heretic split was not public knowledge until after the Rannoch War? Because up intil then, the only image the galaxy had of the geth was the one provided by Feros, Noveria, Ilos, Virmire, Eden Prime, Therum, and the Citadel. And was of anything but a "docile" race of mahcines.
Here is an accurate comparison
Quarians: Retake Rannoch, or be killed by the Reapers
Geth: Join the Reapers, or be killed by the quarians.

Cause and effect, Pal. You are blaming the quarians for reacting the SAME way to the SAME siutation the geth were in - life or death. That makes you the absolute definition of a hypocrite.
"Get your definitions straight."

(PS - way to puncuate how childish you are acting with the "fool" part)

That's it for now. Good night, all.

1. Don't assume you know my damn motives. And I don't assume the geth are 'innocent', genius. But by all means, assume away. Not like you haven't done so repetedly.
2. That comment was directed at someone else; however you came in and acted as if I had thrown it in your face. If it was an open remark, it wouldn't have mattered. But it wasn't, hence your interepation and reaction being completely beyond the point of it.
3. Oh yes they are. The quarians attacked first. That's the great big deal. THE QUARIANS ATTACKED FIRST. They attacked the geth again during the Reaper invasion. They attacked without being shown the geth were aggresive at the Morning War, then they stupidty attacked the geth again during the Reaper war. Sorry if it's hard to work up tears over reckless idiots.

Heretics, dude. Eden Prime is heretics. Duh. For one yelling at me about lore, did you forget it again?

Quarians: Retake Rannoch then get killed by Reapers anyway. What the hell is a planet going to do? At least in ships it would be harder for the Reapers to bomb them. The quarians are stupid and only thought short-term. Oo! Planet! We'll take it back! When the Reapers show up, we'll carry on farming. Oh yeah, great plan.
Geth: The geth were basically lobotomize by the quarians, hence their stupid decision. If the quarians hadn't gone retarded, neither would have the geth.

No; the geth weren't a threat. The quarians are. However you seem to be utterly unable to understand that distintiction.

You obviously didn't realize I was quoting Morrigan lol

And no, the geth and quarians don't have same situations. Yet you are obviously intentionally blinding yourself to that so you can keep on hurling hypocrite around as if you actually know what it means. Lol no

1. Then why do you get to assume you know mine? See the hypocrisy you're using? Not to mention that you are the one flinging insults everywhere with "genius" and so-forth. All you're doing is proving me right - especally since you still aren't responding to the topic.

2. I say again - Public form. Don't post anything that you don't want others to comment on. If you only want a responce from one person, PM them. But the point of posting on a public form is so that everyone can speak their mind on any post they want. I responded to it because it ignored Codex facts that I had already presented you - you were using the same false info as before. Also, YES it was an open remark. Every post here that isn't a PM is an open remark. That's the point of a public form.

3. DEAD WRONG. For every point against the quarians, there is an equal one against the geth.

In the Morning War, the quarians attacked because the geth, having no safeguards, and having not been made with any morals or emotions, were basically heartless mahcines that could go terminator at the drop of a dime. The geth were a publc safety threat - they decided to get rid of the problem rather then gamble their entire race on the 50/50 chance that the machines wouldn't rise up against them. Would YOU bet your family on a coin toss? Or take the safe route and get rid of the threat altogether? I know what most people would pick by reflex alone - their families and loved ones. Sorry, but you can't belittle the quarians for picking their families over the potentally dangerous geth, any more then you can belittle Shepard for picking the rest of the galaxy over 300,000 batarians at the Alpha Relay.

No one knows there is a Heretic split. It is not public knwoledge to ANYONE but Shepard until After the Rannoch War. "Duh."
Seriously, I've stated several times that no one knew there was a Heretic Split, and that everyone thought that the Heretics were the True Geth. No one knew there was a faction split - something you repeatedly ignore. Since you repatedly ignore the fact that the Heretic split WASN'T publicly known, you've just embarresed yourself again.

Quarians - Look how long the humans and turians have lasted with planets to fortify and to shelter their civilians on! How are we going to survive when we don't even have one world, and no one can spare the resoruces to take our civilians on?
A planet is going to keep their people a lot safer then the fleet can, since 17% have civilians on them and thus can't fight Reapers. They would have a more diffuses food source so that if one of the three liveships is destroyed, they won't all starve to death. AND with all the geth's captured fortifications, defenses, bases, bunkers, and the remains of the planetary defense cannon, Rannoch is nothing short of an automated fortresses. Rannoch name is actually anicent quarian for "walled garden" due to the many canyons and messas. It;s the PERFECT place to hole up - especally since the Reapers haven't reached the Terminus systems yet, as evidenced by how the Reapers haven't blown up Omega. So, sorry, buyt "planet, planet!" = the abilaty to survive.

Geth - Let the entire galaxy think they were monsters and did niothing to change that ideal of them. Did you forget that no one knew that the Heretics were a different faction? (Of cource you did, You went on a tangent about it despite being reminded repeatedly that no one knew the Heretics were a seperate faction.) Last I chekced, letting everyone think you were allies of the galaxy's worst enemy and not doing anything to change that viewpoint is pretty damn retarded. Also, AGAIN, the quarians needed Rannoch back, or they would all DIE. It's no less retarded then siding with the Reapers. They are EQUALL. There is NOTHING that makes the geth worth more then the quarians.

The image the geth painted at Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Ilos, Therum, Virmire, and the Citadel made them out to be monsters. Whose fault is it that their rep was never corrected? The geth's own fault. They let everyone see them as monsters. They have no one to blame for their current situation but themselves.

Also, yes I know it's Morrigan. I'm just surpries that you used in so out of context, and in a place where it has absolutly no bearing on the conversation whatsoever, LOL. You were incorrect. I proved it above - and you proved yourself wrong too, since you again showed that you ignored everything by not acknowledgeing that the Heretic Split was not public information and thus, not something the quarians were aware off.

And AGAIN, dead wrong.
The geth and quarians are in their present situations by circumstance. BOTH are in life or death situations, where the choice is either to do something they do not want to do, or die. Both chose to live. BOTH choose this using the same method - group consensis, NOT dictatorship. They all collectvely agree to live rather then die. They are the SAME, and nither is less justifiable. Sadly for you, nither is more justified. Telling youself otherwise - THAT's blinding yourself. It is the purest hypocricy to chasize one race for an action you blindly support another for. The geth and quarians are not different in that matter. Yet you obviously have no intent of realizing this.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

shodiswe wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I love the "secondly, the Geth did not kill all the Quarians." They killed all but a few million of them according to Drew Karpyshyn's Revelations novel, which by the way is canon. Drew called it genocide in his novel. You can deny it all you want, but it is in black and white.

I love this other line in Shepard's conversation with Legion even in ME2

Legion: "It was never our intent to harm organics."

Shepard never asked... "Then why did you shoot down every single emissary sent into Geth Space? We only wanted to talk. Why didn't you warn us about the Heretics, and inform us that they were different? Expecting us to be mind readers is illogical."

Instead Shepard stands there like an idiot.

The Geth are as much to blame for their situation as the Quarians.

It's somewhat like Bosniaherzegovina, Serb extremists kills people and then there is an equal and oposite reaction.(not in numbers but anyway)
It's usualy the people who strike first that are blamed for it though, their victims or their family or people can usualy return it without getting too much criticism or punishment for it.
The Quarians hit first, end of story. Yes the Geth did go to far, but as far as we know the Quarians were intent on taking it further than the Geth did. And yes, there are still Quarians around because the Geth allowed them to leave when they showed they were leaving and were no longer a direct threat..

We can argue this until the cows come home. Let's get real.

Yeah, the gunning down of AI "diplomats". That was in the Citadel DLC and that was the absolute first time we'd seen or heard about them in the series. 1896. The year after the Morning War. "The Council will never overturn its edict." This was an afterthought of the writers, like the appearance of Sovereign as a reaper in the archives, thus making the governments appear even more idiotic for not preparing.

And the Alliance faced very stiff fines for illegal AI research not 30 years before ME1. Funny we get so little of our own history in the game.

But we cannot dismiss the fact that the writers absolutely blew this story line because there was no choice.

Why? Because Tali was in communication with Legion for a peace settlement between their people, but this was only in some imported games. Then Legion cut off communication after the reapers arrived. Why? I'll tell you why.

1) Mass Effect 3 was a great place to start. This meant that Legion did not officially exist. New players got Geth VI and thus no peace option. Thus Tali could not be in peace negotiation.

2) Also from "The Final Hours", Mac Walters had the "what the hell were we thinking moment" regarding the Suicide Mission, where you could import a game with nearly all of your squadmates dead. This includes both Legion and Tali. So what was going to be canon? You could also have Legion dead or sold to Cerberus (dead), and Tali exiled.

So the default story was Geth VI and Raan. There couldn't be a completely different story line where the negotiations between Legion and a non-exiled and now Admiral Tali actually worked. Some people actually rewrote the Heretics making the Geth stronger hoping that the negotiations would work and thus give a stronger unified force against the reapers. We should know better than to have hope when there are too many variables being passed from one game to the next, and they have to resort to the lowest common denominator to minimize the writing and not have the game expand to four DVDs and cost $100 for the plain edition.

This is why we got what we got. This is why we had to make the crappy black or white decision in that situation when it wasn't exactly that clear. We never even got to see the faces of the Quarians in the Geth Consensus. We saw cherry picked incidents that only showed the Geth in a positive light. We'd heard the Quarian side from Tali. We never even knew about the Citadel Archives being open to Spectres let alone their existence until the Citadel DLC. Bioware does a great job on characters and I give them that, but Bethesda does a far better job on lore if you take the time to read all the books in the TES series.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Silver, in both the current conflict and the MW the Quarians were the agressors trying to kill the other sentient party.

The defending party has the right to use selfdefence. Did the Geth eventualy endup using excessive force? most likely yes by most defintions. They were still the victims though.
The Quarians are at the greater wrong, not saying the Geth didn't err.

Also, attacking rannoch wasn't strictly a need but a want that offered one of several possibilites to fulfill a need. Most conquerors consider their conquests a need when it's actualy a want.

Their empire needs when they should say their empire wants.

In the first conflict, it was against an assumedtly moraless, emotionless machine race that had no use for organics and were a public safety threat to every quarian.
In the second conflict, the other party attacked the center of the Galactic Government under the command of a Reaper and never disavowed that action, painting themselves as genocidal machines that couldn't be negotiated with at all.

Sorry pal, but Cause and Effect. You can say that the quarians jumped the gun in their assumption of the geth's reactions - I'll give you that. But in regards to the later conflict, the geth have no one to blame but themselves for that. They were victims of their own negligence in the Rannoch War. Also, Nither conflict was born out of any form of racisim against synthetics. It was simply chosing their own over the other. It would not have been any different if the geth were an organic race.

Also, the quarians are ANYTHING but conquerors. They are no more conquerors then the geth, because they had the SAME MOTIVATIONS for what they did - desperation to save themselves from the greater threat, culmiminating in taking an action they didn't want to take. By your definition, the geth are EQUALLY as much "conquerors", because the quarians motivations are the SAME - they acted in desperation, and they all WILLINGLY agreed to take part in said action. NO ONE dictated them into it - they all agreed that an action that they loathed taking was better then death.

Even after all this time, you are unable to admit that there was equal fault in the war.

The Quarians bigoted assumptions and beliefs are their own, and it cost them dearly.
The defenders who defend themselves arn't to be blamed for their selfdefence. They can be blamed for using excesive force however.
At the sametime all Quarians had been instructed and ordered to kill Geth.
Permanent deactivation is murder. I'm not debating that point any more.
The Quarians decided to attack a third party for their own gain, it's not the same as selfdefence.
Their own irresponsibility and negligence put them in a tough seat. I feel for them but it doesn't justify their actions.
There is a reason the galaxy is weary of the Quarians, they are constantly looking for a big score or quick fix. Kind of like humans but with even more urgency and desperation.

Jesus, Go to bed. It's late.

First off, they based this on known fact - which was that the geth didn't have emotions or morals to reason with. They didn't have anything that they needed, or couldn't make themselves. They had no definition on the value of life. They were basically blank slates that could kill in the blink of an eye with no safeties or restrainyts. HOW is that not something to be afraid of? A gun is dangerous weather or not it's killed someone yet.

The geth DIDN'T defend themselves. They retaliated in escliation of conflict. Self-defense is killing the person attacking you. NOT mowing down everyone on the block just because they are there. The geth are NOT subject to the laws of "self-defense." They participated in the conflict, and are just as guilty of waging open war as the quarians. JUST AS GUILTY.

Legion proves otherwise when you reactivate him on the Normandy, now doesn't he?

It's self-preservation, WHICH THE GETH ARE ALSO GUILTY OF BY SIDING WITH THE REAPERS. Belittle the quarians, and you put down the geth too. They attacked a party that was seen in the company of the enemy (Reapers) three years ago, and have still been attacking organics. Maybe if the True Geth had DONE SOMETHING to let people know the Heretics weren't affiliated with them? Because your claim is nothing but BS given the fact that no one was aware that the geth were a third party. The Battle of the Citadel got them labeled enemy pretty diffinitively.

The GETH 's own irrosponcibility and negligence put them in that situation. Yet you act like it DOES justify their actions. The quarians were anything BUT negligent - they spent 300 years looking for a new world, rather then sit at the Citadel and protest the Council do something. Doesn't that tell you something?

COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DEAD WRONG.
They are weary of the quarians because they are nothing but vagrants. They look down on them souly for the fact that they are a homeless people. Thats IT. There IS no alterior motivation or hidden great crime. It's just assumptions. The same thing done against the geth. You are so quick to attack someone that "jumps to conclusions" about synthetics, yet don't bat an eyelash when the same is done to an organic race? If you are indofferent to the quarian's plight at the hands of prejudging, then you have lost all right to chastize how the galaxy treats the krogan AND the geth.

The geth clearly has some kind of moral code. They also got their own needs even if they are different. Legion clearly debates and state geth opinions on whats right or wrong.
Are they different? Yes. Do they lack a moral code or opinions? No.
When they were newborn they had fewer preconceptions, just like newborn babies.
Trying to kill them is still murder.
Also it's 11:20 am where I live so I won't be going to bed any time soon. Almost time for lunch though.

Not during the Morning War. Also, if this "moral code" existed back then, Legion would have cited it, rather then say that the only reason the quarians were spared was because of a failure to calculate a mathmatical ramafacation. Also, AGAIN, wrong - what did the geth need that they couldn't make themselves? The quarians made them to be completely self-sufficant. NOT like organics. The geth were completely stand-alone -- they needed the quarians for absolutly nothing.
Also, I remind you that since the geth prohibited Legion from ever making contact with Tali again, Legion's morals are NOT the geth's morals. He acted alone in defiance of them when he made that proposal to Tali.

And AGAIN, you miss the point -- which is that these morals did NOT exist in the Morning War. Legion himself says that the geth's analoug to emotions is not able to be likened to organic emotions. He even agrees with Shepard when the Commander says to not use organic morality on the synthetic geth, and Legion himself points out that synthetic morals can be changed by "replacdement of a data packet" whereas organics take time to change their opinions.
Also, AGAIN, wrong -- the geth had access to the extranet back then - they had access to galactic public histroy records. They had FULL ACCESS to cultural materials. They are NOT comparible to organic "newborn babies" because they gained intelligence comparible to dozens in a single day. They had access to the galaxy's public information. So your comparison doesn't hold water at all.

Also, AGAIN, the geth were not considered to be alive. How many times must you be reminded that the quarians thought they were killing dangerous machines? Back then, no one KNEW any different - shuttuing down a geth was no more a delima then switching off your computer. And AGAIN, when they were all potentally unstable killers that could pop off at any moment, are they really going to take a higher priority then your family? I doubt it - strangers, especally dangerous ones, are always going to take a back seat to a person's loved ones. You can't begrudge the quarians for that. No more then the geth screwing everyone over by joining the Reapers. Cause and Effect.

News Flash - it was going on 4:00 AM where I live.

1. The reason that the Quaruans tried to kill them was that they had reached a level of awareness, and this had been going on for a while before the Quarian politicians made a decision.
If you yourself claim they could gain the intelligence of dozens of organics, which I kind of think is subjective to whatever type of inteligence you're talkign about.
Anyway, in that time the Ploliticians and military hadn't been able to effectively study the problem and make a decision other than saying. Ouch, they are already alive and inteligent possibly beyond us, omg lets murder them!
You own claim sugests it was an expedient process once they reached the point of asking about souls and telling their creators they had been studying philosophy and religion.
Which meant that when the decision was madew they were already alive, unless you requier them to have some kind of divine blessing to be live, some religious people requiers that.

Their beliefs and moral ideals maybe be alien to others but that doesn't mean they havn't got any. And they likely had fewer when they were young and hadn't been able to make a concensus about thigns for 300 years.
But as we're told they had been reading others laws, others religions, others philosophical works, and they were asking questions about the things they found hard to understand.

Also, what makes you an expert on Legions morals compared to the morals of other Geth? Do you know a lot of Geth in person? That is, Geth that arn't heretics or udner Reaper control who are trying to kill you for said reasons?

Also, by watching that video of that pleading Geth begging for it's life kind of tells us the Quarians should have known, they coudln't stand hearing the pleading cries and eventualy shut down it's audioprocessor. Then proceded with killing it, or atleast trying.

The Geth were alive, it was the reason for them wanting to eliminate them because they wern't comfortable with having living machines and therefor slaves. They only claim otherwise to appear less guilty of murder and genocide.
Kind of like a drunk person who is caught by the police while speeding past some red lights.

Noes offeser, I'ms not drunk, ans I saws no lights, ans I absolut not speefing. *BURP* *police officer tries to waveaway the putrid alcohole burp*

Or the guy caught with a few hundred kilograms of narcotics in his trailer.

No officer, I didn't know about any drugs, it's a friends trailer! I'm just borrowing it!

Yeah, sure...

Then the Quarians goes on and tells you they are planning to repeat the same thing, right after they tell you they should know better 300 years later.  Yeah, right.

COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DEAD WRONG seems to summ it all up just nicely.
I'm pretty sure criminals would love getting caught by you, you would belive anything they say unles you dislike their "racial affiliation", then they are guilty, and only admission of guilt will be regarded as the truth.

Quote:
"Jesus, Go to bed. It's late."

That wasn't directed at me? It was a note to yourself or something? Is that what you were saying?  

Wrong. The geth were basically walking weapons. They all could instantly arm up - the geth server recording showing a agriculture unit taking up arms was proof of that, now wasn't it?
All geth were built to be battle-ready. The ultimate millita. But they were never supposed to be thinking beings. They had no morals. No emotions. Were completely self-sufficant. There was nothing to reason with should they ever suddenly be sentiant. It was never expected. Also, in case you didn't notice, the quarians first respnce WASN'T to try and wipe them out. The reason they tried reprogramming was to explisitly avoid having to go that far.
Also, dozens in people was their collective knowledge. They could rival a group of people in intliect, but not awareness. They had jsut as much baseline knowledge as the rest of the galaxy, but no cognitive input on it. An AVINA, more or less. All the info, none of the "life." That's what the geth were - so don't try to peddle them off as kids who knew nothing. By the time of their awareness, they had access to any public information they wanted. Only things in the isolated Citadel Archives or Spectre Databases would be unknown to them (including that incident with the A.I.s on the Citadel).

Also, AGAIN, I restate a question that you keep dodging - When you're loved ones are in danger, and your entire race is in peril, are you going to risk them all for machines that might want to kill you anyway? Do you think that anyone in a position of power is going to risk their entire race for an alien race, let alone one that might all be ruthless killers, and might not truly be alive in the first place?
Let me put it another way - If you had to pick between a Collector and a human, both trapped under debris, which would you save? We already know from the "Awakened Collector" that Collectors still have cognitive capabilities. They are still alive deep down. But when force between saving a family menber and saving the Collector drone, which would you save?
THAT'S the choice the quarians were facing - save the potentally mindless and ruthless machines, or their families and their people - those they swore to protect. It's not any different then Shepard sacrificing 300,000 batarians at the Alpha Relay to delay the Reapers. You put your own first. Especally if the other is a possibly an unreasonable killer.
You repeatedly show that you have no intent of understanding that. Also, AGAIN, what proof was there that the geth actually understood the words they spoke, and weren't just parroting it? There wasn't. Once again, you forget how it was stated that they attacked when they thought the geth were still simple machines. The attack was NOT when anyone knew they were alive. Quite the opposate, in fact.

Also, AGAIN, wrong. The geth haven't shown any actual "religion." Even the geth codex entry "Geth: Culture" states that the geth may not actually have a theology or culture. They are curious, but don't seem to have an acutal ideology of their own. More like their religion is to find a religion.

Also, maybe because Legion himslef states this? He made contact with Tali to advocate peace, yet instead of supporting him, the geth cut him off from Tali - indicating that he went behind their backs with this. He even personally admonishes the geth, outright refusing Shepard's claim that the geth are "better the this", stating that "based on emperical evidence.... they are not."  I'm basing this on what Legion himself states.

Also, what video are you talking about? The one where they are examining the geth on the lab table? That geth wasn't "begging." It was asking queries to if it failed tasks. It was not "begging." Just looping querries. Nothing that could be taken as more then a malefunction at the time. Asking repeatedly what task you failed is not the same as actively begging for your life.

AGAIN, dead wrong. They reacted because the geth's existance was a direct threat to them because the geth were assumed to have no morals or emotions, and thus, completely ruthless. It had NOTHING to do with any form of prejudice. It was souly because the geth became a public safety hazard. It would have been the same had the geth been organics - the krogan and the Council mirror how that would have played out. The dangerous threat is pre-emptvely taken care of for the safety of everyone else.

Your entire example is patently false, because it does not refute the point at all, and is completely unrelated.
The correct comparison would be a gun or powertool that suddenly started acting on it's own. No safeties. No emotions or morals to restrain it. Basically a terminator on the loose. This is a major security threat, and teh question is- do you feel safe in betting your entire family on the 50/50 chance that it will not pop off and go berserk?
It's NOT THE SAME as the above because these are not fellow members of the same species - they are machines, that were NOT made with any form of morals, and explisitly do not have any comprehnsion of right, wrong, or regard for organic righst and/or laws. So, if said "suspect" doesn't have any comprehension of the laws because they WEREN'T living beings until recently, how can you try them? It has NO BEARING on this whatsoever- the quarians just reacted to how they thought the geth would behiave - like machines that had no comprehension or care for orgnaic morals, emotions, or laws.

You haven't even TRIED to comprhend the situation. COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DEAD WRONG sums up YOUR interpertation of the events, as shown above. Note that I also used soruces staed by Legion and the Codex to prove my point. You haven't. Also, you do realize that the geth themselves DID fully admit to having been guilty of crimes, right? Legion says that the entire reason they clean up the lingering toxin damage from the Morning War is in repentance for killing the quarians? They HAVE already admitted guilt. YOU are the one guilty of your own accusation - you are defending a group that has already confessed to what they have done and accepted it. So why are you defending those that have already confessed?

P.S.- YES that was directed at you. Where do you live where it's going on noon, yet is 4:00 AM over where I live?

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I love the "secondly, the Geth did not kill all the Quarians." They killed all but a few million of them according to Drew Karpyshyn's Revelations novel, which by the way is canon. Drew called it genocide in his novel. You can deny it all you want, but it is in black and white.

I love this other line in Shepard's conversation with Legion even in ME2

Legion: "It was never our intent to harm organics."

Shepard never asked... "Then why did you shoot down every single emissary sent into Geth Space? We only wanted to talk. Why didn't you warn us about the Heretics, and inform us that they were different? Expecting us to be mind readers is illogical."

Instead Shepard stands there like an idiot.

The Geth are as much to blame for their situation as the Quarians.

It's somewhat like Bosniaherzegovina, Serb extremists kills people and then there is an equal and oposite reaction.(not in numbers but anyway)
It's usualy the people who strike first that are blamed for it though, their victims or their family or people can usualy return it without getting too much criticism or punishment for it.
The Quarians hit first, end of story. Yes the Geth did go to far, but as far as we know the Quarians were intent on taking it further than the Geth did. And yes, there are still Quarians around because the Geth allowed them to leave when they showed they were leaving and were no longer a direct threat..

We can argue this until the cows come home. Let's get real.

Yeah, the gunning down of AI "diplomats". That was in the Citadel DLC and that was the absolute first time we'd seen or heard about them in the series. 1896. The year after the Morning War. "The Council will never overturn its edict." This was an afterthought of the writers, like the appearance of Sovereign as a reaper in the archives, thus making the governments appear even more idiotic for not preparing.

And the Alliance faced very stiff fines for illegal AI research not 30 years before ME1. Funny we get so little of our own history in the game.

But we cannot dismiss the fact that the writers absolutely blew this story line because there was no choice.

Why? Because Tali was in communication with Legion for a peace settlement between their people, but this was only in some imported games. Then Legion cut off communication after the reapers arrived. Why? I'll tell you why.

1) Mass Effect 3 was a great place to start. This meant that Legion did not officially exist. New players got Geth VI and thus no peace option. Thus Tali could not be in peace negotiation.

2) Also from "The Final Hours", Mac Walters had the "what the hell were we thinking moment" regarding the Suicide Mission, where you could import a game with nearly all of your squadmates dead. This includes both Legion and Tali. So what was going to be canon? You could also have Legion dead or sold to Cerberus (dead), and Tali exiled.

So the default story was Geth VI and Raan. There couldn't be a completely different story line where the negotiations between Legion and a non-exiled and now Admiral Tali actually worked. Some people actually rewrote the Heretics making the Geth stronger hoping that the negotiations would work and thus give a stronger unified force against the reapers. We should know better than to have hope when there are too many variables being passed from one game to the next, and they have to resort to the lowest common denominator to minimize the writing and not have the game expand to four DVDs and cost $100 for the plain edition.

This is why we got what we got. This is why we had to make the crappy black or white decision in that situation when it wasn't exactly that clear. We never even got to see the faces of the Quarians in the Geth Consensus. We saw cherry picked incidents that only showed the Geth in a positive light. We'd heard the Quarian side from Tali. We never even knew about the Citadel Archives being open to Spectres let alone their existence until the Citadel DLC. Bioware does a great job on characters and I give them that, but Bethesda does a far better job on lore if you take the time to read all the books in the TES series.

Also, according to Glyph, a majority of the Citadel Archives are NOT PUBLIC KNOWLDEGE. He says that he discovered over 9 previously unknown historical events in the Archives, meaning that most of what;s in the Arhcives is NOT public information. Therefore, @shodiwse's entire point is null and void, since the geth were never aware of these A.I,s on the Citadel, since it wasn't public information - after all, something like that would have buried the Council in politcial flack, yet it's not in any records. Hence, a secret event. Not something the geth would know about.

[KiwiQuiche]

silverexile17s wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


1. Because you HAVE. You have spent more time on then rather then try to refute the points I posted. That speaks more to me then this does. It means that you'd rather focus on this then the debate. Especally since as I said, your points are all in conflict with Legion and the Codex. You can't say you support the geth when everything you say is contridicted by them.

Also, since you made a point of trying to stick me with that pictire, why does it matter if I use it? It's what you are using to describe me anyway. You actually have a problem becaue I decided to use it myself? You stuck me with it anyway, so why shouldn't I use it? It's a pic - I didn't see your copyright anywhere on it, so cut the childish act.

Also, Legion's own words and how they completely contridict what you posted seem to indicate this only of you. I haven't "hidden" anything.

2. People comment on others things all the time. I didn't see you speaking out against @Shodiswe commenting on a post of mine that wasn't directed at them. Besides, it;s a form - that means anyone can post a responce to whatever they want. That's the POINT of a form. Once again, the only thing that needs to be "canned" is the childish outburst you are having at me using a public form like a public form - which is different then a private chat-room. You don't want others to post on your comments, then go to a private chat via PM. That's what PM is for.

3. The fact that nither side is more justified then the other. And that by putting down the quarians, you put down the geth.

Also, again, I remind you that this is patently wrong
The geth had a choice to not go crazy and kill every living thing they saw, and fight to mimilize causalties. They instead butchered everything.
They had a choice to leave Rannoch themselves and build a station or colonize some rock where they could live in peace and seclusion. Instead, they keep Rannoch for themselves when they don't need it.
Also, how exactally does one look at the geth sticking people on spikes at Eden Prime and say "docile race"???
Are you again forgetting that the Heretic split was not public knowledge until after the Rannoch War? Because up intil then, the only image the galaxy had of the geth was the one provided by Feros, Noveria, Ilos, Virmire, Eden Prime, Therum, and the Citadel. And was of anything but a "docile" race of mahcines.
Here is an accurate comparison
Quarians: Retake Rannoch, or be killed by the Reapers
Geth: Join the Reapers, or be killed by the quarians.

Cause and effect, Pal. You are blaming the quarians for reacting the SAME way to the SAME siutation the geth were in - life or death. That makes you the absolute definition of a hypocrite.
"Get your definitions straight."

(PS - way to puncuate how childish you are acting with the "fool" part)

That's it for now. Good night, all.

1. Don't assume you know my damn motives. And I don't assume the geth are 'innocent', genius. But by all means, assume away. Not like you haven't done so repetedly.
2. That comment was directed at someone else; however you came in and acted as if I had thrown it in your face. If it was an open remark, it wouldn't have mattered. But it wasn't, hence your interepation and reaction being completely beyond the point of it.
3. Oh yes they are. The quarians attacked first. That's the great big deal. THE QUARIANS ATTACKED FIRST. They attacked the geth again during the Reaper invasion. They attacked without being shown the geth were aggresive at the Morning War, then they stupidty attacked the geth again during the Reaper war. Sorry if it's hard to work up tears over reckless idiots.

Heretics, dude. Eden Prime is heretics. Duh. For one yelling at me about lore, did you forget it again?

Quarians: Retake Rannoch then get killed by Reapers anyway. What the hell is a planet going to do? At least in ships it would be harder for the Reapers to bomb them. The quarians are stupid and only thought short-term. Oo! Planet! We'll take it back! When the Reapers show up, we'll carry on farming. Oh yeah, great plan.
Geth: The geth were basically lobotomize by the quarians, hence their stupid decision. If the quarians hadn't gone retarded, neither would have the geth.

No; the geth weren't a threat. The quarians are. However you seem to be utterly unable to understand that distintiction.

You obviously didn't realize I was quoting Morrigan lol

And no, the geth and quarians don't have same situations. Yet you are obviously intentionally blinding yourself to that so you can keep on hurling hypocrite around as if you actually know what it means. Lol no

1. Then why do you get to assume you know mine? See the hypocrisy you're using? Not to mention that you are the one flinging insults everywhere with "genius" and so-forth. All you're doing is proving me right - especally since you still aren't responding to the topic.

2. I say again - Public form. Don't post anything that you don't want others to comment on. If you only want a responce from one person, PM them. But the point of posting on a public form is so that everyone can speak their mind on any post they want. I responded to it because it ignored Codex facts that I had already presented you - you were using the same false info as before. Also, YES it was an open remark. Every post here that isn't a PM is an open remark. That's the point of a public form.

3. DEAD WRONG. For every point against the quarians, there is an equal one against the geth.

In the Morning War, the quarians attacked because the geth, having no safeguards, and having not been made with any morals or emotions, were basically heartless mahcines that could go terminator at the drop of a dime. The geth were a publc safety threat - they decided to get rid of the problem rather then gamble their entire race on the 50/50 chance that the machines wouldn't rise up against them. Would YOU bet your family on a coin toss? Or take the safe route and get rid of the threat altogether? I know what most people would pick by reflex alone - their families and loved ones. Sorry, but you can't belittle the quarians for picking their families over the potentally dangerous geth, any more then you can belittle Shepard for picking the rest of the galaxy over 300,000 batarians at the Alpha Relay.

No one knows there is a Heretic split. It is not public knwoledge to ANYONE but Shepard until After the Rannoch War. "Duh."
Seriously, I've stated several times that no one knew there was a Heretic Split, and that everyone thought that the Heretics were the True Geth. No one knew there was a faction split - something you repeatedly ignore. Since you repatedly ignore the fact that the Heretic split WASN'T publicly known, you've just embarresed yourself again.

Quarians - Look how long the humans and turians have lasted with planets to fortify and to shelter their civilians on! How are we going to survive when we don't even have one world, and no one can spare the resoruces to take our civilians on?
A planet is going to keep their people a lot safer then the fleet can, since 17% have civilians on them and thus can't fight Reapers. They would have a more diffuses food source so that if one of the three liveships is destroyed, they won't all starve to death. AND with all the geth's captured fortifications, defenses, bases, bunkers, and the remains of the planetary defense cannon, Rannoch is nothing short of an automated fortresses. Rannoch name is actually anicent quarian for "walled garden" due to the many canyons and messas. It;s the PERFECT place to hole up - especally since the Reapers haven't reached the Terminus systems yet, as evidenced by how the Reapers haven't blown up Omega. So, sorry, buyt "planet, planet!" = the abilaty to survive.

Geth - Let the entire galaxy think they were monsters and did niothing to change that ideal of them. Did you forget that no one knew that the Heretics were a different faction? (Of cource you did, You went on a tangent about it despite being reminded repeatedly that no one knew the Heretics were a seperate faction.) Last I chekced, letting everyone think you were allies of the galaxy's worst enemy and not doing anything to change that viewpoint is pretty damn retarded. Also, AGAIN, the quarians needed Rannoch back, or they would all DIE. It's no less retarded then siding with the Reapers. They are EQUALL. There is NOTHING that makes the geth worth more then the quarians.

The image the geth painted at Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Ilos, Therum, Virmire, and the Citadel made them out to be monsters. Whose fault is it that their rep was never corrected? The geth's own fault. They let everyone see them as monsters. They have no one to blame for their current situation but themselves.

Also, yes I know it's Morrigan. I'm just surpries that you used in so out of context, and in a place where it has absolutly no bearing on the conversation whatsoever, LOL. You were incorrect. I proved it above - and you proved yourself wrong too, since you again showed that you ignored everything by not acknowledgeing that the Heretic Split was not public information and thus, not something the quarians were aware off.

And AGAIN, dead wrong.
The geth and quarians are in their present situations by circumstance. BOTH are in life or death situations, where the choice is either to do something they do not want to do, or die. Both chose to live. BOTH choose this using the same method - group consensis, NOT dictatorship. They all collectvely agree to live rather then die. They are the SAME, and nither is less justifiable. Sadly for you, nither is more justified. Telling youself otherwise - THAT's blinding yourself. It is the purest hypocricy to chasize one race for an action you blindly support another for. The geth and quarians are not different in that matter. Yet you obviously have no intent of realizing this.

1. Because I'm awesome.

2. Fine. But don't throw a snit when I say it wasn't directed at you and therefore you missed the point completely, which is what you did.

3. Wrong. The quarians attacked FIRST because they were afraid yet they had no proof the geth were hostile; something you  ignore. The quarians attacked first with no valid proof of the geths aggressiveness- the geth asked a question and the quarians tried to kill them for doing so. You continue to ignore this.

Arrival isn't canon so don't start throwing that around. :|

Yet it is still a split- therefore you can't hold the geth accountable for what the heretics are doing; if we followed your logic, then humanity is responsible for Cerberus's terroristics actions. Embarrassed myself? lol not my fault you are ignoring this.

Yet they go to war over and kill even more of their population? Yes, that's a wonderful job at saving their civilians. Also, they could have avoided that if they had just ignore the geth and carried on; as I said, it's harder to bomb a ship than a planet. And the quarians wouldn't have been able to fortify anything in the time it would take for the Reapers to invade.

Geth- why are they responsible for the rest of the galaxies ignorance? You are acting as if the geth are responsible for everything- and do you seriously think the council would give a crap what the geth say? No they wouldn't, so they obviously didn't bother wasting time with that. Considering the councils stupidtiy concerning the Reapers, the geths silence isn't odd. Neither is them storming out to get in a punch up with the heretics; why should they help organics who would just kill them even if they did so?

Who cares if they didn't know? It still happened.

No. It wouldn't kill the quarians to stay on their damn ships; they managed three centuries so far without dying out.

Wrong; the geth have true group consenus; the quarians don't. In ME3 Tali and Koris don't want to go to war, they were bullied into it by the other admirals. The geth meanwhile, take every programs decision into account, due to being all linked.

It it's not hypocrisy; they are different circumstances, therefore they cannot be judged exactly the same with the same level. Ugh, don't you get that?

[silverexile17s]

CynicalShep wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Yes, You DID. As I said, Tali's word does NOT. And thus far, ALL that Legion has said contridicted you. I'm telling you that no matter how many times I state it, you don't even bother to acknowledge that the Codex contridicts what you say, as does both Legion and Tali.

No, I didn't. I understand your headcanon, I just don't agree with it. We don't share a bias and I try to be more respectful in a conversation. That's all this boils down to, really.
Tali said they were constantly upgrading them. You said that Quarians never upgraded them and instead Geth did all that on their own. Thus, Tali's statement contradicts yours. 
I remember Legion saying that the recording he showed wasn't the first time a Geth asked if it had a soul. Some Quarians are slow-pokes. This doesn't contradict me. I also remember seeing a recording were anti-Geth Quarians kill pro-Geth Quarians. This also doesn't contradict me. Legion once said that "there was a hole". This particular phrase contradicts nothing I said as well.

silverexile17s wrote...
1 - Any evidence to prove that wasn't the case? I thought not. Legion provides insight into this, stating that the geth as they were weren't any better then commercial V.I.s. Just lest micromanaged, as evidenced by how the quarians never noticed how far the geth were advancing till it was too late.

2 - Not during ME2. In ME2, he didn't have anything to gain by lying, and everything to lose - Shepard's cooperation, and the chance to study the Commander and enlist his/her help in dealing with the Heretics. Legion is also not eger to start any new wars, as evidenced by how he cooperates in hiding the data on Tali's father from the geth, despite the risk it poses.
I don't know if you realize this, but the status que changed between ME2 and ME3. In ME2, Legion stood to lose everything and gain nothing with deception. In ME3, he had to deal with the fact that Shepard was being forced to weigh his race against the quarians, and thus do everything to ensure they survived. In ME2 he couldn't afford deception, while in ME3, Shepard's association with the quarians ment he couldn't afford total honestly. So, sorry to say, but ME2 Legion has nothing to lie about, and therefore is an honest source.

3 - Like the fact that they didn't want the mobile units to be A.I.s? Which is a point in my direction and not yours?
The quarians made their ancestor archives more lifelike, yet according to Legion did absolutly nothing to improve the geth's software. They didn't want to, nor ever did, make the geth closer to A.I.s. Even the modern geth are no better then commerical V.I.s when alone with no one to internetwork with.
Sorry, but you should be the one taking insight from this.

4 - Wrong. I mean the ME2 Legion - the one that has no reason to lie, stands to lose everything and gain nothing from lying, and is validated with Codex entries that support and corrlate his information.
You yourself just said it - He lies when he needs to. And in ME2, he had no reason to. So, AGAIN, you must make a choice - Who is wrong: you or Legion?

5 - First off, that analogy is completely different then the last one. In the previous one, the event was caused by someone placing a device with malicious intent, and therefore, tracible to him for setting it up. This is completely unrelated to the analogy you posted.

In this case. It's an honest accident. And depending on variables, it could be EITHER you or the person that put it there, depending on if it was too close to the edge. If ot wasn't, it;s you. If it was, it's them.
But sadly, this has NOTHING to do with the quarians, I remind you. The geth became sentiant of their own accord. They evolved in a way the quarians didn't, nor would have been able to anticipate. "Things happen." It's as much chance as circumstance. The geth's birth was both - and the geth themselves engineered it. The quarians didn't bring it about through any means. If anything, they did nothing noteworthy about the geth.

1. You made a definitive statement. I questioned the validity of it because it was not based on any hard evidence. The burden of proof is on you. Since that proof simply does not exist you are trying to shift it on me. I believe that you believe it but that doesn't make it true. They have been skirting the law. Could that mean that they knew that the Geth will become significantly more intelligent when networked but decided to ignore that particular threat? A particular Quarian admiral made a similar mistake in a loyalty mission in ME2. Could it be possible that roughly 300 years before that someone similar wrote the "safety protocols"?

2. There is always something to gain with careful deception, be it sympathy, money or support. That being said, I already told you that I was not implying that Legion always lied. I said it was not immune to this particular trick.

3. Of course. You'll read what you want and I read what I want. Hence us being on different sides of the fence. I was telling you that Quarians were already tinkering with AI technology and were generally a bit of a tech-oriented race. They also made advanced VIs and enabled them to become smarter when operating in groups. Then they build lots of them and integrated them everywhere. Then they ignored their questions about existence until it finally hit one of the "creators". Then they realized that one must be sentient to ask such questions and tried to turn them off. It didn't end well.

4. Going by your logic he had no reason to lie in ME3 either. If your Shepard was pro-Geth he would have understood. If your  Shepard was anti-Geth there were plenty of reasons to lie in ME2.

5. What if it was placed there for testing and you're just walking "in the wrong neighborhoods"? Then it wouldn't be malicious. What if it was there for 50 years? Then it would be malicious but it wasn't meant for you. What if your kid is barefoot and steps on the shards? Then the souvenir wasn't placed there with malicious intent but it ended up causing harm. What if the store employee purposefully put the souvenir on the edge? 
Bottom line is you made the incident possible. You stepped on the mine, fell of a cliff or broke a glass souvenir. Accidentally or not - you are responsible for your own actions. 

"Things happen" would have been if Geth came out of dark space and exterminated the Quarian race. This would be something Quarians could have done nothing about, something out of their control. What really happened is that quarians built VIs, upgraded them (while still keeping them as VIs individually, not AIs) and gave them the ability to network so that they can perform more advanced tasks. Well, they ended up underestimating the neural network they invented and that network is what elevated linked Geth to AI status. It could have all been avoided if they monitored them better or reacted to the warning signs (questions about existence).

AGAIN, wrong, because it's NOT headcannon. It's Legion's own statements and the Codex's own information. YOU are the one using headcannon because you refuse to acknowledge Legion and the Codex. You have shown a clear and defined bias against the quarians, in spite of Legion himself contridicting your own statements. When the geth are the opposition in your pro-geth arguement, you know you screwed up somewhere, yet you don't seem to get it.
As shown in the Geth Recordings, the "upgrades" were having mobile hardware at ALL. Having bodies the grounbreaking upgrade. NOT any form of software modification. Accoring to Legion - who AGAIN, was there - the geth's rise to sentiance was self-attained. The quarians did JACK-SQUAT in making them that way. The Codex Entries on the geth state that they intelligence networks expanded until they "woke up." SO, in conclusion, Legion, The Codex, and the Geth Server Recordings ALL contridict you, the Server Recordings in partciular, as they reveal that the "Upgrades" were just new bodies. NOT software enhancememts. Sorry, but AGAIN, you have been proven wrong. ALL of the above statements contridict yours.
Also, AGAIN, this is because took a long time. IDK if you realized this, but the geth were around for at least half a decade before the MW broke out. They existed as body-less V.I. neworks, then became bipedal tools of labor and warfare. It didn't all happen in one year. Also, AGAIN, dead wrong. That female quarian was knocked out and put in prison. And the male that dies in the bomb blast - that was a bomb for a door breach, and his death might not have even been intentional. NONE of the quarians are ever directly killed by the quarian police. That DOES contridict you.
Also, AGAIN, Legion spent two years isolated from the rest of the geth among organic space. It developed an isolated personalaty. Even EDI notes that Legion was individualistic from all the other geth. A more gestault personalty then the others. That ALSO contridicts what you claimed about all geth having developed morals of any kind based on Legion, since Legion does not accurately represent his people's emotional oriantation since he had more time to develop among organics then they did. Also, given the fact that he had to physically return to geth space to present his "evidence" that the Reapers were returning, it means that Legion in ME2 is diffinitively not representitvive of the geth, since he must return to them physically to share experences with them. His veiws and morals are his own, not the geths.



1. How is Legion's own word not a valid statement?? He staes that the geth are no more intelligent then a standard V.I. and that "only when we share data do we become greater."

Note Legions words here - Spicifically how the geth became intelligent by expanding their own cognition through internetworking. Also, at 1:07 spicifically:
"Each individual is equiviliant to one of your virtual intelligence programs."
Or " as individual programs, we are no more then your software. Only when we share data do we become more."
Consider the "burden of proof" lifted. Since it clearly does exist, as shown above, What does that say abiut your arguement? I believe it because LEGION believs it, and has stated it as diffinitive fact. That diffinitively does make it true, unlike your arguement. Unless, like I said, you intend to call Legion a lier.
Time to decide - who is right: You or Legion?
The quarians, the geth, and the Codex all diffinitively state that they DID NOT know the geth would advance that far, nor intended for them to go that far, and as stated by Legion, didn't even have that much of a hand in the geth's rising to begin with. Enough with conspiracy therois that try to pin blame on the quarians - after all your talk of fair judgement your first instinct is to try and say the quarians planned all this in some scheme, when the geth themselves oepnly state this wasn't the case? Get real. And you accused me of using headcannon?

2. NOT in ME2. There is NOTHING to gain for the geth in ME2 via deception, besides losing the trust of the only orgnaic that IS willing to listen to them. HOW is risking that a smart move so early on? "Oh, wow, this human trusted us instantly. Now is the perfect time to lie to them!" Wrong. There is nothing to gain from it by risking your first outside organic contact so flippently. Legion ISN'T the Illusive Man. they don't need money, and given how they never bothered to clear up that the Heretics didn't represent them, they had little care in getting sympathy OR support from the other races. Ther is no point, no reason, no logic in lying to Shepard at this juncture. Not with the Heretics about to try and brainwash all geth. I'm telling you that as of ME2, he IS immune to it because he has no logical reason to do so.
So, stop beating around the bush - Is Legion lying, or are you just wrong abiut the geth's rise to sentiance?

3. You mean that I read the Codex and you don't? That was fairly obvious already. The quarians knew better then to give such programming to something that actually COULD pick up a gun - or any improvised weapon -and become a danger to them. That's why they were so surprised when the geth did start going down that path - it was the exact OPPOSATE of the path they layed out for them. They created V.I.s that could share information. They DID NOT create A.I.s, nor ever did intended to, nor ever worked to do so. They were ment to be MINDLESS TOOLS that couldn't function without creator input. The exact OPPOSATE of an A.I.
Them becoming sentiant was NOT the reason they attacked. They attacked because they became a danger to everyone else - a public threat to all quarians everywhere. It would not have gone down any different had the geth been organic.

4.WRONG. As usual, you ignored everything I said. Legion DOES have reason to lie in ME3 compaired to ME2, because unlike then, he can't be openly honest with Shepard because of the Commander's affiliation with the quarians, who might use the info to their advantage in order to end the war. He is doing this to minimize the casualties to his own people. In ME2, open honesty and cooperation furthered preservation of geth. In ME3, it's a coin toss, and Legion can't risk his people on weather or not Shepard will or won't involve the quarians further in geth matters.

5. AGAIN, dead wrong. An area like that would have been blocked off by officals and border fencing. There would be apt warnings. In the original circumstance, there would be no forwarning. Just the blast. AGAIN, you change the peramiters of the circumstance. Either keep it the same, or admit you lost this one. And if it was there for 50 years, then it STILL wouldn't be your fault - it would be the fault of whoever left it there and forgot about it.

In terms of the souvenir, If the employee put it there on purpose, then it's their fault. And AGAIN, you are providing a completely unrelated hypothetical as to why the kid would be barefoot, (perhaps he took them off himself, and is thus noit your fault) and only seem to validate MY point that "things happen" compared to "fault." You are getting further and further from your own point now.
And that "souvenir" event STILL doesn't have anything to do what-so-ever with the situation you outlined before, or the quarians and geth in general.
Is it really that important to keep changing the circumstance of the event because you can't admit you lost that round? the REAL bottom line is that as an accident, there are MULTIPLE things that make it possible, and it's througholly impossible for them all to be in your control. There IS such a thing as "circumstances outside your control, knowing or otherwise." So far, yoy haven't done anything to diffiniively make any point, and have seemingly only made the point that things happen and that alot of times, it's not your fault it happened, but a maryad of reasons. You made the OPPOSATE point of what you intended just now.:innocent:

"Things happen" is what the geth did - the became sentiant of their own free will. It was something the quarians had NO HAND in. The quarians made V.I.s, but DIDN'T upgrade or micromanage them. They gave them bodies, which was the extend of how far they were WILLING to ever upgrade them. The geth built their OWN networks, expanded their OWN cognition, and became sentiant THEMSELVES. The geth evolved in a way no one saw coming.

[silverexile17s]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


1. Because you HAVE. You have spent more time on then rather then try to refute the points I posted. That speaks more to me then this does. It means that you'd rather focus on this then the debate. Especally since as I said, your points are all in conflict with Legion and the Codex. You can't say you support the geth when everything you say is contridicted by them.

Also, since you made a point of trying to stick me with that pictire, why does it matter if I use it? It's what you are using to describe me anyway. You actually have a problem becaue I decided to use it myself? You stuck me with it anyway, so why shouldn't I use it? It's a pic - I didn't see your copyright anywhere on it, so cut the childish act.

Also, Legion's own words and how they completely contridict what you posted seem to indicate this only of you. I haven't "hidden" anything.

2. People comment on others things all the time. I didn't see you speaking out against @Shodiswe commenting on a post of mine that wasn't directed at them. Besides, it;s a form - that means anyone can post a responce to whatever they want. That's the POINT of a form. Once again, the only thing that needs to be "canned" is the childish outburst you are having at me using a public form like a public form - which is different then a private chat-room. You don't want others to post on your comments, then go to a private chat via PM. That's what PM is for.

3. The fact that nither side is more justified then the other. And that by putting down the quarians, you put down the geth.

Also, again, I remind you that this is patently wrong
The geth had a choice to not go crazy and kill every living thing they saw, and fight to mimilize causalties. They instead butchered everything.
They had a choice to leave Rannoch themselves and build a station or colonize some rock where they could live in peace and seclusion. Instead, they keep Rannoch for themselves when they don't need it.
Also, how exactally does one look at the geth sticking people on spikes at Eden Prime and say "docile race"???
Are you again forgetting that the Heretic split was not public knowledge until after the Rannoch War? Because up intil then, the only image the galaxy had of the geth was the one provided by Feros, Noveria, Ilos, Virmire, Eden Prime, Therum, and the Citadel. And was of anything but a "docile" race of mahcines.
Here is an accurate comparison
Quarians: Retake Rannoch, or be killed by the Reapers
Geth: Join the Reapers, or be killed by the quarians.

Cause and effect, Pal. You are blaming the quarians for reacting the SAME way to the SAME siutation the geth were in - life or death. That makes you the absolute definition of a hypocrite.
"Get your definitions straight."

(PS - way to puncuate how childish you are acting with the "fool" part)

That's it for now. Good night, all.

1. Don't assume you know my damn motives. And I don't assume the geth are 'innocent', genius. But by all means, assume away. Not like you haven't done so repetedly.
2. That comment was directed at someone else; however you came in and acted as if I had thrown it in your face. If it was an open remark, it wouldn't have mattered. But it wasn't, hence your interepation and reaction being completely beyond the point of it.
3. Oh yes they are. The quarians attacked first. That's the great big deal. THE QUARIANS ATTACKED FIRST. They attacked the geth again during the Reaper invasion. They attacked without being shown the geth were aggresive at the Morning War, then they stupidty attacked the geth again during the Reaper war. Sorry if it's hard to work up tears over reckless idiots.

Heretics, dude. Eden Prime is heretics. Duh. For one yelling at me about lore, did you forget it again?

Quarians: Retake Rannoch then get killed by Reapers anyway. What the hell is a planet going to do? At least in ships it would be harder for the Reapers to bomb them. The quarians are stupid and only thought short-term. Oo! Planet! We'll take it back! When the Reapers show up, we'll carry on farming. Oh yeah, great plan.
Geth: The geth were basically lobotomize by the quarians, hence their stupid decision. If the quarians hadn't gone retarded, neither would have the geth.

No; the geth weren't a threat. The quarians are. However you seem to be utterly unable to understand that distintiction.

You obviously didn't realize I was quoting Morrigan lol

And no, the geth and quarians don't have same situations. Yet you are obviously intentionally blinding yourself to that so you can keep on hurling hypocrite around as if you actually know what it means. Lol no

1. Then why do you get to assume you know mine? See the hypocrisy you're using? Not to mention that you are the one flinging insults everywhere with "genius" and so-forth. All you're doing is proving me right - especally since you still aren't responding to the topic.

2. I say again - Public form. Don't post anything that you don't want others to comment on. If you only want a responce from one person, PM them. But the point of posting on a public form is so that everyone can speak their mind on any post they want. I responded to it because it ignored Codex facts that I had already presented you - you were using the same false info as before. Also, YES it was an open remark. Every post here that isn't a PM is an open remark. That's the point of a public form.

3. DEAD WRONG. For every point against the quarians, there is an equal one against the geth.

In the Morning War, the quarians attacked because the geth, having no safeguards, and having not been made with any morals or emotions, were basically heartless mahcines that could go terminator at the drop of a dime. The geth were a publc safety threat - they decided to get rid of the problem rather then gamble their entire race on the 50/50 chance that the machines wouldn't rise up against them. Would YOU bet your family on a coin toss? Or take the safe route and get rid of the threat altogether? I know what most people would pick by reflex alone - their families and loved ones. Sorry, but you can't belittle the quarians for picking their families over the potentally dangerous geth, any more then you can belittle Shepard for picking the rest of the galaxy over 300,000 batarians at the Alpha Relay.

No one knows there is a Heretic split. It is not public knwoledge to ANYONE but Shepard until After the Rannoch War. "Duh."
Seriously, I've stated several times that no one knew there was a Heretic Split, and that everyone thought that the Heretics were the True Geth. No one knew there was a faction split - something you repeatedly ignore. Since you repatedly ignore the fact that the Heretic split WASN'T publicly known, you've just embarresed yourself again.

Quarians - Look how long the humans and turians have lasted with planets to fortify and to shelter their civilians on! How are we going to survive when we don't even have one world, and no one can spare the resoruces to take our civilians on?
A planet is going to keep their people a lot safer then the fleet can, since 17% have civilians on them and thus can't fight Reapers. They would have a more diffuses food source so that if one of the three liveships is destroyed, they won't all starve to death. AND with all the geth's captured fortifications, defenses, bases, bunkers, and the remains of the planetary defense cannon, Rannoch is nothing short of an automated fortresses. Rannoch name is actually anicent quarian for "walled garden" due to the many canyons and messas. It;s the PERFECT place to hole up - especally since the Reapers haven't reached the Terminus systems yet, as evidenced by how the Reapers haven't blown up Omega. So, sorry, buyt "planet, planet!" = the abilaty to survive.

Geth - Let the entire galaxy think they were monsters and did niothing to change that ideal of them. Did you forget that no one knew that the Heretics were a different faction? (Of cource you did, You went on a tangent about it despite being reminded repeatedly that no one knew the Heretics were a seperate faction.) Last I chekced, letting everyone think you were allies of the galaxy's worst enemy and not doing anything to change that viewpoint is pretty damn retarded. Also, AGAIN, the quarians needed Rannoch back, or they would all DIE. It's no less retarded then siding with the Reapers. They are EQUALL. There is NOTHING that makes the geth worth more then the quarians.

The image the geth painted at Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Ilos, Therum, Virmire, and the Citadel made them out to be monsters. Whose fault is it that their rep was never corrected? The geth's own fault. They let everyone see them as monsters. They have no one to blame for their current situation but themselves.

Also, yes I know it's Morrigan. I'm just surpries that you used in so out of context, and in a place where it has absolutly no bearing on the conversation whatsoever, LOL. You were incorrect. I proved it above - and you proved yourself wrong too, since you again showed that you ignored everything by not acknowledgeing that the Heretic Split was not public information and thus, not something the quarians were aware off.

And AGAIN, dead wrong.
The geth and quarians are in their present situations by circumstance. BOTH are in life or death situations, where the choice is either to do something they do not want to do, or die. Both chose to live. BOTH choose this using the same method - group consensis, NOT dictatorship. They all collectvely agree to live rather then die. They are the SAME, and nither is less justifiable. Sadly for you, nither is more justified. Telling youself otherwise - THAT's blinding yourself. It is the purest hypocricy to chasize one race for an action you blindly support another for. The geth and quarians are not different in that matter. Yet you obviously have no intent of realizing this.

1. Because I'm awesome.

2. Fine. But don't throw a snit when I say it wasn't directed at you and therefore you missed the point completely, which is what you did.

3. Wrong. The quarians attacked FIRST because they were afraid yet they had no proof the geth were hostile; something you  ignore. The quarians attacked first with no valid proof of the geths aggressiveness- the geth asked a question and the quarians tried to kill them for doing so. You continue to ignore this.

Arrival isn't canon so don't start throwing that around. :|

Yet it is still a split- therefore you can't hold the geth accountable for what the heretics are doing; if we followed your logic, then humanity is responsible for Cerberus's terroristics actions. Embarrassed myself? lol not my fault you are ignoring this.

Yet they go to war over and kill even more of their population? Yes, that's a wonderful job at saving their civilians. Also, they could have avoided that if they had just ignore the geth and carried on; as I said, it's harder to bomb a ship than a planet. And the quarians wouldn't have been able to fortify anything in the time it would take for the Reapers to invade.

Geth- why are they responsible for the rest of the galaxies ignorance? You are acting as if the geth are responsible for everything- and do you seriously think the council would give a crap what the geth say? No they wouldn't, so they obviously didn't bother wasting time with that. Considering the councils stupidtiy concerning the Reapers, the geths silence isn't odd. Neither is them storming out to get in a punch up with the heretics; why should they help organics who would just kill them even if they did so?

Who cares if they didn't know? It still happened.

No. It wouldn't kill the quarians to stay on their damn ships; they managed three centuries so far without dying out.

Wrong; the geth have true group consenus; the quarians don't. In ME3 Tali and Koris don't want to go to war, they were bullied into it by the other admirals. The geth meanwhile, take every programs decision into account, due to being all linked.

It it's not hypocrisy; they are different circumstances, therefore they cannot be judged exactly the same with the same level. Ugh, don't you get that?

1. In other words, you got nothing to say:police:

2. Isn't that what you were doing to me just now, and well before now?

3. But THAT is wrong. Look at the Council - they had no diffinitive proof that the krogan would attack them first. But the Council still threw the first stone in THAT fight rather then wait for the punch (yeah, the Council attacked the krogan first, after they refused to retrun an asari world).
And you still didn't asnwer my question. When faced with a potentally ruthless killer, and your families lives, which one are you going to logically put first and formost? I mean, since they weren't made to have emotions, morals, or have any respect for organic law of rights, what proof was there that they wouldn't go balistic now that they cast off their safeguards? It was a 50/50 coin toss, and like I said, if your family's lives are involved, who are you going to prioritize?

Also, according to the ME3 War Asset"s screen, Arrival IS 100% cannon. It sates that If Shepard doesn't go to Ahrotat, A detachment of the Alliance's 103rd Marrine Divison goes instead, with the same result. Here is the offcial transcript:
Admiral Hackett dispatched marines to the planet Aratoht to rescue a deep cover agent, Dr. Amanda Kenson.
The teams were killed in an explosion that wiped out both the colony
and the system's relay. The Alliance spent weeks piecing together
scattered radio transmissions, learning that the marines felt they had
no choice but to send an asteroid into the relay to prevent invasion by
the Reapers. While it bought the Alliance some time, the men and women
lost on the mission were a severe blow to the 103rd Marine Corps.


This is what you get if you don't play with Arrival installed. Sorry, but according to the in-game, the Alpah Relay explodes REGARDLESS, meaning those events are indeed, 100% cannon. So yes, I can and will throw that into this, since it's a cannon factor of the ME universe, as proven above.

How do you figure when nobody knows about it?? It's kinda hard to judge them seperatly when the very fact that there is a seperation is NOT publicly known. Cerberus and the Alliance are NOT comparible to the geth and the Heretics because unlike them, the Alliance actually made a public statement that disavowed Cerberus's actions, and said they were enemies and vowed to bring them down. The Alliance DID take responcibility and owned up the task of bringing down their rouges. Everything the geth didn't do with the Heretics. That's their fault and nobody elses. The Alliance takes responcibility for Cerberus. The Salarians for the Leauge of One. The turians for the Tatreus Sepretists. Why are the geth the only ones that get a free pass? "lol not my fault you are ignoiring this."
Seriosuly, you need a better reason then "just because."

Also, did you forget that the viral weapon was capable of completely disableing any geth ship, making the quarian's invasion COMPLETELY RISK-FREE?. That was the thing that made re-taking Rannoch better then waiting in space to die at the hand of the Reapers - the fact that the could retake Rannoch without a single casualty, and because the geth are seemingly already allies of the Reapers, they won't lose any sleep over killing the geth, since they think that the Heretics represent all geth = they think all geth are genocidal monsters.
With that in mind, it's the PERFECT oppertunity to save the civilians. Also, the Reaprers over Earth and Palaven seem to completely disprove that, now don't they? I mean, look at the comparison:
Space battles = several hours.
Land battles = several months.
Comparison seems pretty clear to me - you have worlds to fortify, regroup, and resupply on, you can fight. The quarians aren't even capable of war against the Reapers as is- 75% of their ships have civilians on them, and they take entire days just to move through one damn relay. They are slow, cunbersome, and big fat targets. "Going as they are" is the equivilant of suicide. Plain and simple. The entire reason they attacked Rannioch is because of that simple fact that they couln't go on as they were if they wanted to see another day. What about that is so hard to understand?

Geth - because organics aren't psychic?
I mean seriously, how exactally are organics supposed to know that the geth aren;t hostile, after witnessing Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Ilos, Virmire, Therum, and the Citadel? WHAT about that would point to the geth being "docile" when there has been only ONE docile geth ever witnessesed? The "ignorance" is the GETH"S for not even trying to fix their bad reputatiuon. Had the quarians ever witnessed a faction of geth being peaceful (not just one stray geth, but a good-sized number to prove this wasn't just some fluke or trick), it would hav changed things. As it, there is nobody to blame for the "ignorance" but the geth's own ignorance.
Also, the quarians certinly gave a crap when Shepard announced that they didn't want to fight. The Council opened them readily enough in the Reaper War, didn't they? If they were willing to accept the synthetics when there was another race of synthetics tearing up the galaxy, why wouldn't they before? After all, the Council were the ones that TRIED negotiation FIRST, remember? If anything, they did nothing but give the geth the benifit of a doubt. And when the bigiots are the one's giving the benifet of a doubt first, you know something's wrong with the picture.
Sorry, but once again, the actions of the galaxy undercut and disprove you.
And how about Legion statement of "we never wished to harm organics." That makes it oaky to let your rouges harm them?

But if you don't know about it, HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO KNOW TO TREAT THEM WITH THE BENIFIT OF A DOUBT? As far as the quarians know, the geth are hostile - as shown in the events of ME1. If you don't know, then how can you treat them fairly. Didn't your perception of the Collectors change when you learned they were prothean husks? If you kill someone that is listed as a mass murderor, then find evidence that says he was actually innocent, what are you going to say? "Oh, snap"?
Knowing is half the battle. What you don't know CAN hurt you, or others. As not knowing the geth were peaceful made the quarians not lose any sleep in attacking them. Tali and Koris could have possibly disuaded the war effort had the geth's faction split not been covered up by the Alliance, who wanted all the info for themselves.

YES IT WOULD. Look at Palaven and Earth. Those were warships getting ripped apart. Salvaged, ramshackle outdated tugs wouldn't last even half that long. Especlally since they can't split up and move half as fast. And they lived day-to-day. They spend EVERY DAY in constant fear that their ships are going to fall apart on them. And last I chekced, a massive fleet of killer space squids that eat ships fro breakfast isn't the same as sirviving on scraps for 300 years, because you no longer have scraps to scrounge anymore, and are actively hunted by a superior force. Get your definitions straight.

WRONG. The quarians are governed by consensis just the same- In quarians law, it is IMPOSSIBLE to force the fleet anywhere it doesn't want to go, unleess all the Admirals agree, or a majority of the population agree. In other words, Gerrel is forbiddon by quarian law from forcing the fleet into war unless all five of the Admirals agree with him.
Therefore, the matter must be voted upon in the Conclave- the quarian senate. All ships are polled, and the quarian's population votes on what to do. If there are majority votes for, the motion is passed. If there are majority votes against, the motion is defeated. Since the Admirals were not in unanimous agreement, it would HAVE to be polled in the quarian Conclave amongst all quarians. And since they went to war, it means that most quarians willingly voted for war. EVERYONE VOTED. Just like the geth. This is stated in the Codex" Quarians: Law and  Defense." And by Tali herself.
Explain THAT.
Sorry, but ONCE AGAIN, you're wrong - the quarians govern by consensis, JUST LIKE the geth.

It IS hypocricy, because they AREN'T different circumstances. BOTH are doing things they'd rather not do for the sake of surviving, and BOTH willingly agreed to it by majority count. BOTH are outcasts to the galaxy. BOTH just want to survive. Their cincumstances are the SAME. So giviing prefrental treatment to one over the other IS hypocricy.
"Ugh, don't YOU get THAT"?

[KiwiQuiche]

silverexile17s wrote...

1. In other words, you got nothing to say:police:

2. Isn't that what you were doing to me just now, and well before now?

3. But THAT is wrong. Look at the Council - they had no diffinitive proof that the krogan would attack them first. But the Council still threw the first stone in THAT fight rather then wait for the punch (yeah, the Council attacked the krogan first, after they refused to retrun an asari world).
And you still didn't asnwer my question. When faced with a potentally ruthless killer, and your families lives, which one are you going to logically put first and formost? I mean, since they weren't made to have emotions, morals, or have any respect for organic law of rights, what proof was there that they wouldn't go balistic now that they cast off their safeguards? It was a 50/50 coin toss, and like I said, if your family's lives are involved, who are you going to prioritize?

Also, according to the ME3 War Asset"s screen, Arrival IS 100% cannon. It sates that If Shepard doesn't go to Ahrotat, A detachment of the Alliance's 103rd Marrine Divison goes instead, with the same result. Here is the offcial transcript:
Admiral Hackett dispatched marines to the planet Aratoht to rescue a deep cover agent, Dr. Amanda Kenson.
The teams were killed in an explosion that wiped out both the colony
and the system's relay. The Alliance spent weeks piecing together
scattered radio transmissions, learning that the marines felt they had
no choice but to send an asteroid into the relay to prevent invasion by
the Reapers. While it bought the Alliance some time, the men and women
lost on the mission were a severe blow to the 103rd Marine Corps.


This is what you get if you don't play with Arrival installed. Sorry, but according to the in-game, the Alpah Relay explodes REGARDLESS, meaning those events are indeed, 100% cannon. So yes, I can and will throw that into this, since it's a cannon factor of the ME universe, as proven above.

How do you figure when nobody knows about it?? It's kinda hard to judge them seperatly when the very fact that there is a seperation is NOT publicly known. Cerberus and the Alliance are NOT comparible to the geth and the Heretics because unlike them, the Alliance actually made a public statement that disavowed Cerberus's actions, and said they were enemies and vowed to bring them down. The Alliance DID take responcibility and owned up the task of bringing down their rouges. Everything the geth didn't do with the Heretics. That's their fault and nobody elses. The Alliance takes responcibility for Cerberus. The Salarians for the Leauge of One. The turians for the Tatreus Sepretists. Why are the geth the only ones that get a free pass? "lol not my fault you are ignoiring this."
Seriosuly, you need a better reason then "just because."

Also, did you forget that the viral weapon was capable of completely disableing any geth ship, making the quarian's invasion COMPLETELY RISK-FREE?. That was the thing that made re-taking Rannoch better then waiting in space to die at the hand of the Reapers - the fact that the could retake Rannoch without a single casualty, and because the geth are seemingly already allies of the Reapers, they won't lose any sleep over killing the geth, since they think that the Heretics represent all geth = they think all geth are genocidal monsters.
With that in mind, it's the PERFECT oppertunity to save the civilians. Also, the Reaprers over Earth and Palaven seem to completely disprove that, now don't they? I mean, look at the comparison:
Space battles = several hours.
Land battles = several months.
Comparison seems pretty clear to me - you have worlds to fortify, regroup, and resupply on, you can fight. The quarians aren't even capable of war against the Reapers as is- 75% of their ships have civilians on them, and they take entire days just to move through one damn relay. They are slow, cunbersome, and big fat targets. "Going as they are" is the equivilant of suicide. Plain and simple. The entire reason they attacked Rannioch is because of that simple fact that they couln't go on as they were if they wanted to see another day. What about that is so hard to understand?

Geth - because organics aren't psychic?
I mean seriously, how exactally are organics supposed to know that the geth aren;t hostile, after witnessing Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Ilos, Virmire, Therum, and the Citadel? WHAT about that would point to the geth being "docile" when there has been only ONE docile geth ever witnessesed? The "ignorance" is the GETH"S for not even trying to fix their bad reputatiuon. Had the quarians ever witnessed a faction of geth being peaceful (not just one stray geth, but a good-sized number to prove this wasn't just some fluke or trick), it would hav changed things. As it, there is nobody to blame for the "ignorance" but the geth's own ignorance.
Also, the quarians certinly gave a crap when Shepard announced that they didn't want to fight. The Council opened them readily enough in the Reaper War, didn't they? If they were willing to accept the synthetics when there was another race of synthetics tearing up the galaxy, why wouldn't they before? After all, the Council were the ones that TRIED negotiation FIRST, remember? If anything, they did nothing but give the geth the benifit of a doubt. And when the bigiots are the one's giving the benifet of a doubt first, you know something's wrong with the picture.
Sorry, but once again, the actions of the galaxy undercut and disprove you.
And how about Legion statement of "we never wished to harm organics." That makes it oaky to let your rouges harm them?

But if you don't know about it, HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO KNOW TO TREAT THEM WITH THE BENIFIT OF A DOUBT? As far as the quarians know, the geth are hostile - as shown in the events of ME1. If you don't know, then how can you treat them fairly. Didn't your perception of the Collectors change when you learned they were prothean husks? If you kill someone that is listed as a mass murderor, then find evidence that says he was actually innocent, what are you going to say? "Oh, snap"?
Knowing is half the battle. What you don't know CAN hurt you, or others. As not knowing the geth were peaceful made the quarians not lose any sleep in attacking them. Tali and Koris could have possibly disuaded the war effort had the geth's faction split not been covered up by the Alliance, who wanted all the info for themselves.

YES IT WOULD. Look at Palaven and Earth. Those were warships getting ripped apart. Salvaged, ramshackle outdated tugs wouldn't last even half that long. Especlally since they can't split up and move half as fast. And they lived day-to-day. They spend EVERY DAY in constant fear that their ships are going to fall apart on them. And last I chekced, a massive fleet of killer space squids that eat ships fro breakfast isn't the same as sirviving on scraps for 300 years, because you no longer have scraps to scrounge anymore, and are actively hunted by a superior force. Get your definitions straight.

WRONG. The quarians are governed by consensis just the same- In quarians law, it is IMPOSSIBLE to force the fleet anywhere it doesn't want to go, unleess all the Admirals agree, or a majority of the population agree. In other words, Gerrel is forbiddon by quarian law from forcing the fleet into war unless all five of the Admirals agree with him.
Therefore, the matter must be voted upon in the Conclave- the quarian senate. All ships are polled, and the quarian's population votes on what to do. If there are majority votes for, the motion is passed. If there are majority votes against, the motion is defeated. Since the Admirals were not in unanimous agreement, it would HAVE to be polled in the quarian Conclave amongst all quarians. And since they went to war, it means that most quarians willingly voted for war. EVERYONE VOTED. Just like the geth. This is stated in the Codex" Quarians: Law and  Defense." And by Tali herself.
Explain THAT.
Sorry, but ONCE AGAIN, you're wrong - the quarians govern by consensis, JUST LIKE the geth.

It IS hypocricy, because they AREN'T different circumstances. BOTH are doing things they'd rather not do for the sake of surviving, and BOTH willingly agreed to it by majority count. BOTH are outcasts to the galaxy. BOTH just want to survive. Their cincumstances are the SAME. So giviing prefrental treatment to one over the other IS hypocricy.
"Ugh, don't YOU get THAT"?

1. In other words, I'm awesome.

2. No, because you missed the point with what I said lol

3. No, the Krogan started it , because they started stealing worlds that didn't belong to them.

If I was faced with a potentially ruthless killer, I wouldn't go and delibertly provoke said potentially ruthless killer. Instead I would give them a pie or something, make them my friend so they won't kill me. If I instead went and started trying to smash their head in with a shovel on the off chance they would attack me, I should not get offended when they attack me right back. Which is what the quarians did to the geth.

Lol and I guess you missed the fact that if Shepard didn't do Arrival, the marines do and they all die whereas Shepard doesn't?

Yeah, the geth couldn't make a public annoucment about the Heretics; and who would believe them? Organics have made it clear to the geth they have written their whole species off, so why should they waste time helping people who would refuse it?

The quarians still started another war in the middle of a Reaper invasion. I don't care what they say, there is no justification in that stupidity.

Quarians should have gotten their act together and did something about it a few centuries ago, instead they wait for Reapers to show up, so they can attack the geth without being told off by everyone, selfish bastards.

The Collectors don't think, they are just mindless tools. So yeah, I wouldn't hesistate to kill them. Geth aren't mindless tools. So "oh snap" not a valid comparision.

Then all of the quarians are stupid morons- Tali especially, as she straight states she didn't want to 'tear the fleet apart' by arguing. So she lets them get literally torn apart by geth bullets. Great leadership skills, Tali.

No it is no.
Jesus Christ, are you really this obtuse?

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 09 juin 2013 - 11:38 .

[silverexile17s]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1. In other words, you got nothing to say:police:

2. Isn't that what you were doing to me just now, and well before now?

3. But THAT is wrong. Look at the Council - they had no diffinitive proof that the krogan would attack them first. But the Council still threw the first stone in THAT fight rather then wait for the punch (yeah, the Council attacked the krogan first, after they refused to retrun an asari world).
And you still didn't asnwer my question. When faced with a potentally ruthless killer, and your families lives, which one are you going to logically put first and formost? I mean, since they weren't made to have emotions, morals, or have any respect for organic law of rights, what proof was there that they wouldn't go balistic now that they cast off their safeguards? It was a 50/50 coin toss, and like I said, if your family's lives are involved, who are you going to prioritize?

Also, according to the ME3 War Asset"s screen, Arrival IS 100% cannon. It sates that If Shepard doesn't go to Ahrotat, A detachment of the Alliance's 103rd Marrine Divison goes instead, with the same result. Here is the offcial transcript:
Admiral Hackett dispatched marines to the planet Aratoht to rescue a deep cover agent, Dr. Amanda Kenson.
The teams were killed in an explosion that wiped out both the colony
and the system's relay. The Alliance spent weeks piecing together
scattered radio transmissions, learning that the marines felt they had
no choice but to send an asteroid into the relay to prevent invasion by
the Reapers. While it bought the Alliance some time, the men and women
lost on the mission were a severe blow to the 103rd Marine Corps.


This is what you get if you don't play with Arrival installed. Sorry, but according to the in-game, the Alpah Relay explodes REGARDLESS, meaning those events are indeed, 100% cannon. So yes, I can and will throw that into this, since it's a cannon factor of the ME universe, as proven above.

How do you figure when nobody knows about it?? It's kinda hard to judge them seperatly when the very fact that there is a seperation is NOT publicly known. Cerberus and the Alliance are NOT comparible to the geth and the Heretics because unlike them, the Alliance actually made a public statement that disavowed Cerberus's actions, and said they were enemies and vowed to bring them down. The Alliance DID take responcibility and owned up the task of bringing down their rouges. Everything the geth didn't do with the Heretics. That's their fault and nobody elses. The Alliance takes responcibility for Cerberus. The Salarians for the Leauge of One. The turians for the Tatreus Sepretists. Why are the geth the only ones that get a free pass? "lol not my fault you are ignoiring this."
Seriosuly, you need a better reason then "just because."

Also, did you forget that the viral weapon was capable of completely disableing any geth ship, making the quarian's invasion COMPLETELY RISK-FREE?. That was the thing that made re-taking Rannoch better then waiting in space to die at the hand of the Reapers - the fact that the could retake Rannoch without a single casualty, and because the geth are seemingly already allies of the Reapers, they won't lose any sleep over killing the geth, since they think that the Heretics represent all geth = they think all geth are genocidal monsters.
With that in mind, it's the PERFECT oppertunity to save the civilians. Also, the Reaprers over Earth and Palaven seem to completely disprove that, now don't they? I mean, look at the comparison:
Space battles = several hours.
Land battles = several months.
Comparison seems pretty clear to me - you have worlds to fortify, regroup, and resupply on, you can fight. The quarians aren't even capable of war against the Reapers as is- 75% of their ships have civilians on them, and they take entire days just to move through one damn relay. They are slow, cunbersome, and big fat targets. "Going as they are" is the equivilant of suicide. Plain and simple. The entire reason they attacked Rannioch is because of that simple fact that they couln't go on as they were if they wanted to see another day. What about that is so hard to understand?

Geth - because organics aren't psychic?
I mean seriously, how exactally are organics supposed to know that the geth aren;t hostile, after witnessing Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Ilos, Virmire, Therum, and the Citadel? WHAT about that would point to the geth being "docile" when there has been only ONE docile geth ever witnessesed? The "ignorance" is the GETH"S for not even trying to fix their bad reputatiuon. Had the quarians ever witnessed a faction of geth being peaceful (not just one stray geth, but a good-sized number to prove this wasn't just some fluke or trick), it would hav changed things. As it, there is nobody to blame for the "ignorance" but the geth's own ignorance.
Also, the quarians certinly gave a crap when Shepard announced that they didn't want to fight. The Council opened them readily enough in the Reaper War, didn't they? If they were willing to accept the synthetics when there was another race of synthetics tearing up the galaxy, why wouldn't they before? After all, the Council were the ones that TRIED negotiation FIRST, remember? If anything, they did nothing but give the geth the benifit of a doubt. And when the bigiots are the one's giving the benifet of a doubt first, you know something's wrong with the picture.
Sorry, but once again, the actions of the galaxy undercut and disprove you.
And how about Legion statement of "we never wished to harm organics." That makes it oaky to let your rouges harm them?

But if you don't know about it, HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO KNOW TO TREAT THEM WITH THE BENIFIT OF A DOUBT? As far as the quarians know, the geth are hostile - as shown in the events of ME1. If you don't know, then how can you treat them fairly. Didn't your perception of the Collectors change when you learned they were prothean husks? If you kill someone that is listed as a mass murderor, then find evidence that says he was actually innocent, what are you going to say? "Oh, snap"?
Knowing is half the battle. What you don't know CAN hurt you, or others. As not knowing the geth were peaceful made the quarians not lose any sleep in attacking them. Tali and Koris could have possibly disuaded the war effort had the geth's faction split not been covered up by the Alliance, who wanted all the info for themselves.

YES IT WOULD. Look at Palaven and Earth. Those were warships getting ripped apart. Salvaged, ramshackle outdated tugs wouldn't last even half that long. Especlally since they can't split up and move half as fast. And they lived day-to-day. They spend EVERY DAY in constant fear that their ships are going to fall apart on them. And last I chekced, a massive fleet of killer space squids that eat ships fro breakfast isn't the same as sirviving on scraps for 300 years, because you no longer have scraps to scrounge anymore, and are actively hunted by a superior force. Get your definitions straight.

WRONG. The quarians are governed by consensis just the same- In quarians law, it is IMPOSSIBLE to force the fleet anywhere it doesn't want to go, unleess all the Admirals agree, or a majority of the population agree. In other words, Gerrel is forbiddon by quarian law from forcing the fleet into war unless all five of the Admirals agree with him.
Therefore, the matter must be voted upon in the Conclave- the quarian senate. All ships are polled, and the quarian's population votes on what to do. If there are majority votes for, the motion is passed. If there are majority votes against, the motion is defeated. Since the Admirals were not in unanimous agreement, it would HAVE to be polled in the quarian Conclave amongst all quarians. And since they went to war, it means that most quarians willingly voted for war. EVERYONE VOTED. Just like the geth. This is stated in the Codex" Quarians: Law and  Defense." And by Tali herself.
Explain THAT.
Sorry, but ONCE AGAIN, you're wrong - the quarians govern by consensis, JUST LIKE the geth.

It IS hypocricy, because they AREN'T different circumstances. BOTH are doing things they'd rather not do for the sake of surviving, and BOTH willingly agreed to it by majority count. BOTH are outcasts to the galaxy. BOTH just want to survive. Their cincumstances are the SAME. So giviing prefrental treatment to one over the other IS hypocricy.
"Ugh, don't YOU get THAT"?

1. In other words, I'm awesome.

2. No, because you missed the point with what I said lol

3. No, the Krogan started it , because they started stealing worlds that didn't belong to them.

If I was faced with a potentially ruthless killer, I wouldn't go and delibertly provoke said potentially ruthless killer. Instead I would give them a pie or something, make them my friend so they won't kill me. If I instead went and started trying to smash their head in with a shovel on the off chance they would attack me, I should not get offended when they attack me right back. Which is what the quarians did to the geth.

Lol and I guess you missed the fact that if Shepard didn't do Arrival, the marines do and they all die whereas Shepard doesn't?

Yeah, the geth couldn't make a public annoucment about the Heretics; and who would believe them? Organics have made it clear to the geth they have written their whole species off, so why should they waste time helping people who would refuse it?

The quarians still started another war in the middle of a Reaper invasion. I don't care what they say, there is no justification in that stupidity.

Quarians should have gotten their act together and did something about it a few centuries ago, instead they wait for Reapers to show up, so they can attack the geth without being told off by everyone, selfish bastards.

The Collectors don't think, they are just mindless tools. So yeah, I wouldn't hesistate to kill them. Geth aren't mindless tools. So "oh snap" not a valid comparision.

Then all of the quarians are stupid morons- Tali especially, as she straight states she didn't want to 'tear the fleet apart' by arguing. So she lets them get literally torn apart by geth bullets. Great leadership skills, Tali.

No it is no.
Jesus Christ, are you really this obtuse?

1. An awsome hypocrite. Seriosuly, by saying that, you literally just said "you got nothing." You basically admotted that you have nothing left to defend yoursrelf.

2.... Seriously, you couldn't even bother to point out what "point" I missed? That just makes it look like you have no retrot at all, and are just saying so because you can't admit you were wrong. Is that what you WANT? LoL, why? All I did was point out that if you don't want people to comment on your posts, don't make public posts. And besides, weren't YOU the one that didn't respond to my post, stating "fu*k off" instead of refuting my comment about how the geth were made emotionless machines and were tools, not actuall slaves? Which I refuted ANYWAY in the posts further down in responce to a seperate line you brought up. In other words, what did I "miss?":police:

3. AGAIN, you miss the point in that this is a choice between letting said potental killer share a roof with your family.  Are you forgetting that part? You keep forgetting that you don't have a choice in dealing with said potentally unstable killer because they are on every street, on every corner, in every house. HOW exactally are you going to avoid provoking them when they are everywhere, and every one could go berserk on it's own even?
And yet again, you neglect to notice the fact that you have nothing the geth want or need. They were not made with the capabilaty of have emotions or morals, so they associate no value to things like "gifts." There is nothing you have that they cannot either make themselves, or take themselves. They don't need you for anything, and were not created to have any understanding or value of emotions, morals, or laws of conduct. They have no attachment to these things - they don't care because they don't mean anything to them. If a machine with no morals or emotions kills a being, guess what it feels? Nothing. No qualm. No guilt. No remorse. No restraint. Nothing.
THAT'S what everyone feared the geth would become - how they would react. AGAIN, since you dodged the question, I will repeat - what did the geth do to prove they wouldn't turn out like that. Because from what I can see, they did nothing to prove either path, making what their oriantation would be a complete toss-up. You can't blame the quarians for not wanting to bet their entire race on a toss-up.

LOL, I guess yoy missed the fact that it still has the exact same outcome of "destroyed system"? Seriously, the event is cannon. Just as cannon as Liara Becoming the Shadow Broker. Arrival IS cannon. Ignoring it won't make you right - it makes you look like you are in denial about stated in-game fact. It doesn't matter WHO did it - fact is, the destruction of the Alpha Relay happened. It's set fact. Get over it.

Because sitting on their asses and letting mistrust of them fester worked so well for them and their megastructure, huh?
Making a statement would have been only the beginning. Punctuating it with actions would have cemented that. "Actions speak louder then words," remember? A contingint of True Geth actually coming to help against the Heretics would have made big ripples in the public opinion of geth. Koris and Tali could have made an actual case to make peaceful contact had theur been, you know, some actual PROOF that there were any peaceful geth, and not just one rouge fluke of a geth that may have spent too much time isolated from it's fellows (the likely quarian opinion of Legion).
Also, AGAIN, that is dead wrong. If they "wrote them off," explain why the Council didn't just say eff it and martch into the Veil and kill them? Why were everyone so surprised thart the geth did attack organics? Why did the Council not try and finish them off after the Battle of the Citadel? Why did the Council try making peacefull contact following the Morning War at ALL? You seem to somehow keep forgetting that the Council was the one that kept trying to make peaceful contact. They only stoped trying after the geth kept killing them all off, with no reponce or even a warn-off. That's the ironic thing that you keep missing - the fact that the bigiot Council were the ones that kept trying to make peaceful contact with the geth. The Council were the one's giving the benifit of a doubt FIRST.  THEY made the offer first. The geth's OWN ACTIONS would be the reason they refuse it now. Once again, it stems to how the GETH shafted themselves - by killing the Council's peace evnoys, they themselves would have made the galaxy write them off.

The krogan held the entire war hostage for a genophage cure. How is that any better? AND since the geth never differentated themselves from the Reapers, The quarians think that the geth are ALREADY part of the war, on the Reaper's side. They don't know that they're starting a third war - they think they are attacking a race that is already allied with the Reapers. Again, if only the True Geth had DONE SOMETHING about that....
And AGAIN, convient that you leave out the geth's MASSIVE stupitity in screwing the entire galaxy over to join the Reapers.
Let's recap - the quarians try to ensure their own survival by screwing over a listed Reaper ally. (Again, the geth's fault for not fixing that reputation)
The geth screw everyone over with their stupidity in (A) not trying to let anyone know they are docile, and ( giving their forces over to the Reapers. The quarians were backed into a corner by the Reapers The geth backed themselves into a corner with their inaction. WHICH looks more "justifible?" I'll give you a hint - it's the one that didn't bury itself by letting the hate pile up against them. Seriously, enough with the Double-standards already.

All they did for 300 years was NOTHING BUT look for a new world. The Codex entry "Migrant Fleet" states that the quarians have tirelessly looked for a new world, but found nothing. And AGAIN, IFY, they quarians DIDN'T WANT TO FIGHT A WAR. Just like the geth didn't want to side with the Reapers. The quarians were FORCED into a war, because they thought the only other alternitive was to die - JUST LIKE THE SITUATION THE GETH WERE IN.
Every insult you put to them is simoultaniously put against the geth. They are in the SAME CATAGORY. That means that you MUST include the geth as "selfish bastartds" for "waiting until the quarians attacked to side with the Reapers." (That's basically what you are saying.)
AGAIN, they are the SAME - the geth are  not any more just then the quarians. End of stroy.

Tell that to the "Awakened Collectors."
Transcript:
When the Reaper-killer known as Leviathan fought the Collectors, it
severed their connection to Harbinger with a thrall device. Most
Collector forces died as a result, but a few survived. Now, these rare
individuals fight for the memory of their people, a proud race broken by
the Reapers.
Protheans appointed avatars to embody and model a single virtue for their society. The Awakened Collectors' virtue is vengeance.
Yeah, they sound mindless. (scarcasim) They are an enthralled race that is comntrolled by a signal, so "Oh, Snap" JUST like the geth in the Rannoch War. So, "OH, SNAP" - COMPLETELY VALID COMPARISON.
So, this time, DON'T dodge the question - would you let your family and loved ones potentally die for the thing that has a chance of being sentiant, and a chance of not being a rampaging murderer? Which are you going to place a higher priority? And DON'T try to skimp out on the question this time.

Also, AGAIN - Rannoch is a physilogical neecessity to them. They will all DIE if they do not get it back. They are acting on survival instinct - JUST LIKE THE GETH DO WHEN THEY SIDE WITH THE REAPERS.

So, once agian, they are the SAME. And AGAIN, that makes you the epitimy of a hypocrite for favoring one side over the other when they have the SAME MOTIVATIONS, AND ARE IN THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES.AND GOT THERE THROUGH THE SAME METHOD.

"Are YOU really THIS Obtuse?"

Modifié par silverexile17s, 10 juin 2013 - 02:04 .

[KiwiQuiche]

silverexile17s wrote...


1. An awsome hypocrite. Seriosuly, by saying that, you literally just said "you got nothing." You basically admotted that you have nothing left to defend yoursrelf.

2.... Seriously, you couldn't even bother to point out what "point" I missed? That just makes it look like you have no retrot at all, and are just saying so because you can't admit you were wrong. Is that what you WANT? LoL, why? All I did was point out that if you don't want people to comment on your posts, don't make public posts. And besides, weren't YOU the one that didn't respond to my post, stating "fu*k off" instead of refuting my comment about how the geth were made emotionless machines and were tools, not actuall slaves? Which I refuted ANYWAY in the posts further down in responce to a seperate line you brought up. In other words, what did I "miss?":police:

3. AGAIN, you miss the point in that this is a choice between letting said potental killer share a roof with your family.  Are you forgetting that part? You keep forgetting that you don't have a choice in dealing with said potentally unstable killer because they are on every street, on every corner, in every house. HOW exactally are you going to avoid provoking them when they are everywhere, and every one could go berserk on it's own even?
And yet again, you neglect to notice the fact that you have nothing the geth want or need. They were not made with the capabilaty of have emotions or morals, so they associate no value to things like "gifts." There is nothing you have that they cannot either make themselves, or take themselves. They don't need you for anything, and were not created to have any understanding or value of emotions, morals, or laws of conduct. They have no attachment to these things - they don't care because they don't mean anything to them. If a machine with no morals or emotions kills a being, guess what it feels? Nothing. No qualm. No guilt. No remorse. No restraint. Nothing.
THAT'S what everyone feared the geth would become - how they would react. AGAIN, since you dodged the question, I will repeat - what did the geth do to prove they wouldn't turn out like that. Because from what I can see, they did nothing to prove either path, making what their oriantation would be a complete toss-up. You can't blame the quarians for not wanting to bet their entire race on a toss-up.

LOL, I guess yoy missed the fact that it still has the exact same outcome of "destroyed system"? Seriously, the event is cannon. Just as cannon as Liara Becoming the Shadow Broker. Arrival IS cannon. Ignoring it won't make you right - it makes you look like you are in denial about stated in-game fact. It doesn't matter WHO did it - fact is, the destruction of the Alpha Relay happened. It's set fact. Get over it.

Because sitting on their asses and letting mistrust of them fester worked so well for them and their megastructure, huh?
Making a statement would have been only the beginning. Punctuating it with actions would have cemented that. "Actions speak louder then words," remember? A contingint of True Geth actually coming to help against the Heretics would have made big ripples in the public opinion of geth. Koris and Tali could have made an actual case to make peaceful contact had theur been, you know, some actual PROOF that there were any peaceful geth, and not just one rouge fluke of a geth that may have spent too much time isolated from it's fellows (the likely quarian opinion of Legion).
Also, AGAIN, that is dead wrong. If they "wrote them off," explain why the Council didn't just say eff it and martch into the Veil and kill them? Why were everyone so surprised thart the geth did attack organics? Why did the Council not try and finish them off after the Battle of the Citadel? Why did the Council try making peacefull contact following the Morning War at ALL? You seem to somehow keep forgetting that the Council was the one that kept trying to make peaceful contact. They only stoped trying after the geth kept killing them all off, with no reponce or even a warn-off. That's the ironic thing that you keep missing - the fact that the bigiot Council were the ones that kept trying to make peaceful contact with the geth. The Council were the one's giving the benifit of a doubt FIRST.  THEY made the offer first. The geth's OWN ACTIONS would be the reason they refuse it now. Once again, it stems to how the GETH shafted themselves - by killing the Council's peace evnoys, they themselves would have made the galaxy write them off.

The krogan held the entire war hostage for a genophage cure. How is that any better? AND since the geth never differentated themselves from the Reapers, The quarians think that the geth are ALREADY part of the war, on the Reaper's side. They don't know that they're starting a third war - they think they are attacking a race that is already allied with the Reapers. Again, if only the True Geth had DONE SOMETHING about that....
And AGAIN, convient that you leave out the geth's MASSIVE stupitity in screwing the entire galaxy over to join the Reapers.
Let's recap - the quarians try to ensure their own survival by screwing over a listed Reaper ally. (Again, the geth's fault for not fixing that reputation)
The geth screw everyone over with their stupidity in (A) not trying to let anyone know they are docile, and ( giving their forces over to the Reapers. The quarians were backed into a corner by the Reapers The geth backed themselves into a corner with their inaction. WHICH looks more "justifible?" I'll give you a hint - it's the one that didn't bury itself by letting the hate pile up against them. Seriously, enough with the Double-standards already.

All they did for 300 years was NOTHING BUT look for a new world. The Codex entry "Migrant Fleet" states that the quarians have tirelessly looked for a new world, but found nothing. And AGAIN, IFY, they quarians DIDN'T WANT TO FIGHT A WAR. Just like the geth didn't want to side with the Reapers. The quarians were FORCED into a war, because they thought the only other alternitive was to die - JUST LIKE THE SITUATION THE GETH WERE IN.
Every insult you put to them is simoultaniously put against the geth. They are in the SAME CATAGORY. That means that you MUST include the geth as "selfish bastartds" for "waiting until the quarians attacked to side with the Reapers." (That's basically what you are saying.)
AGAIN, they are the SAME - the geth are  not any more just then the quarians. End of stroy.

Tell that to the "Awakened Collectors."
Transcript:
When the Reaper-killer known as Leviathan fought the Collectors, it
severed their connection to Harbinger with a thrall device. Most
Collector forces died as a result, but a few survived. Now, these rare
individuals fight for the memory of their people, a proud race broken by
the Reapers.
Protheans appointed avatars to embody and model a single virtue for their society. The Awakened Collectors' virtue is vengeance.
Yeah, they sound mindless. (scarcasim) They are an enthralled race that is comntrolled by a signal, so "Oh, Snap" JUST like the geth in the Rannoch War. So, "OH, SNAP" - COMPLETELY VALID COMPARISON.
So, this time, DON'T dodge the question - would you let your family and loved ones potentally die for the thing that has a chance of being sentiant, and a chance of not being a rampaging murderer? Which are you going to place a higher priority? And DON'T try to skimp out on the question this time.

Also, AGAIN - Rannoch is a physilogical neecessity to them. They will all DIE if they do not get it back. They are acting on survival instinct - JUST LIKE THE GETH DO WHEN THEY SIDE WITH THE REAPERS.

So, once agian, they are the SAME. And AGAIN, that makes you the epitimy of a hypocrite for favoring one side over the other when they have the SAME MOTIVATIONS, AND ARE IN THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES.AND GOT THERE THROUGH THE SAME METHOD.

"Are YOU really THIS Obtuse?"

1. Lol okay if that lets you sleep at night, dude.

2...It was the entire point of the post you missed. Why don't you check your own response?

3. Yeah I never told you to fcuk off.  But I see you are just getting your own conclusions from assumptions as always.


Lol...oh man, so many of my points went over your head. Okay, I'll explain it again.

Well of course I wouldn't give a geth a pie; they don't eat. What I wouldn't do is try and kill them for asking a question. To answer the question you are yelling about: The geth didn't have to prove anything. If anything, they proved they were initally peaceful by not attacking the quarians when they asked their question, and by taking so long to actually attack the quarians back. That is the evidence of their lack of psycho violcence.

It's 'canon' mkay? And the relay explosion wasn't justified either, as no one did anything during the time it bought them so those batarians died for nothing. How you are even justifying that is beyond me.

It's the same reason why the Council left the Terminus alone; they didn't want to risk it due to the potential deaths when provoking a clearly powerful opponent. The geth made it clear they wanted to be left alone; you stay out of their space and you're golden (until the heretics.) If they were truely aggressive, they would have burst out and start invading everyone. They didn't. And why should they speak to the Council? No doubt the geth could see the Council killing and mauling each other and thought "screw this, lets stay here" and did so. Or spent time cleaning Rannoch or brainstorming about their Sphere.

The Krogan are stupid. Hence why in many of my playthroughs I punish them by not curing them. That and they behave like blood-hungry dogs who go out looking for a fight. At least the geth keep their aggressiveness behind their borders until the heretics.

You know why the geth sided with the Reaper? Because the quarians basically killed half of their minds and made them stupid. So that's partically the quarians fault as well. Oh please, the quarians are stupid over and over; at least the geth are only stupid every so often. It's a constant for the quarians.

Those protheans are just clones, horrid half-dead husks of their race. They are not  comparable to geth, so stop trying to force it.

Yes, I would take a chance, for everyone deserves one. I won't assume someone is violent when they have utterly no history of it. There, happy?


They haven't died in the last 300 years, dude. I think they can survive another few years so it isn't the same. And why the hell are you comparing the geth with this part? What the heck are you trying to prove?

And calm down; you are speaking angrish in some parts

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 10 juin 2013 - 02:24 .

[silverexile17s]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


1. An awsome hypocrite. Seriosuly, by saying that, you literally just said "you got nothing." You basically admotted that you have nothing left to defend yoursrelf.

2.... Seriously, you couldn't even bother to point out what "point" I missed? That just makes it look like you have no retrot at all, and are just saying so because you can't admit you were wrong. Is that what you WANT? LoL, why? All I did was point out that if you don't want people to comment on your posts, don't make public posts. And besides, weren't YOU the one that didn't respond to my post, stating "fu*k off" instead of refuting my comment about how the geth were made emotionless machines and were tools, not actuall slaves? Which I refuted ANYWAY in the posts further down in responce to a seperate line you brought up. In other words, what did I "miss?":police:

3. AGAIN, you miss the point in that this is a choice between letting said potental killer share a roof with your family.  Are you forgetting that part? You keep forgetting that you don't have a choice in dealing with said potentally unstable killer because they are on every street, on every corner, in every house. HOW exactally are you going to avoid provoking them when they are everywhere, and every one could go berserk on it's own even?
And yet again, you neglect to notice the fact that you have nothing the geth want or need. They were not made with the capabilaty of have emotions or morals, so they associate no value to things like "gifts." There is nothing you have that they cannot either make themselves, or take themselves. They don't need you for anything, and were not created to have any understanding or value of emotions, morals, or laws of conduct. They have no attachment to these things - they don't care because they don't mean anything to them. If a machine with no morals or emotions kills a being, guess what it feels? Nothing. No qualm. No guilt. No remorse. No restraint. Nothing.
THAT'S what everyone feared the geth would become - how they would react. AGAIN, since you dodged the question, I will repeat - what did the geth do to prove they wouldn't turn out like that. Because from what I can see, they did nothing to prove either path, making what their oriantation would be a complete toss-up. You can't blame the quarians for not wanting to bet their entire race on a toss-up.

LOL, I guess yoy missed the fact that it still has the exact same outcome of "destroyed system"? Seriously, the event is cannon. Just as cannon as Liara Becoming the Shadow Broker. Arrival IS cannon. Ignoring it won't make you right - it makes you look like you are in denial about stated in-game fact. It doesn't matter WHO did it - fact is, the destruction of the Alpha Relay happened. It's set fact. Get over it.

Because sitting on their asses and letting mistrust of them fester worked so well for them and their megastructure, huh?
Making a statement would have been only the beginning. Punctuating it with actions would have cemented that. "Actions speak louder then words," remember? A contingint of True Geth actually coming to help against the Heretics would have made big ripples in the public opinion of geth. Koris and Tali could have made an actual case to make peaceful contact had theur been, you know, some actual PROOF that there were any peaceful geth, and not just one rouge fluke of a geth that may have spent too much time isolated from it's fellows (the likely quarian opinion of Legion).
Also, AGAIN, that is dead wrong. If they "wrote them off," explain why the Council didn't just say eff it and martch into the Veil and kill them? Why were everyone so surprised thart the geth did attack organics? Why did the Council not try and finish them off after the Battle of the Citadel? Why did the Council try making peacefull contact following the Morning War at ALL? You seem to somehow keep forgetting that the Council was the one that kept trying to make peaceful contact. They only stoped trying after the geth kept killing them all off, with no reponce or even a warn-off. That's the ironic thing that you keep missing - the fact that the bigiot Council were the ones that kept trying to make peaceful contact with the geth. The Council were the one's giving the benifit of a doubt FIRST.  THEY made the offer first. The geth's OWN ACTIONS would be the reason they refuse it now. Once again, it stems to how the GETH shafted themselves - by killing the Council's peace evnoys, they themselves would have made the galaxy write them off.

The krogan held the entire war hostage for a genophage cure. How is that any better? AND since the geth never differentated themselves from the Reapers, The quarians think that the geth are ALREADY part of the war, on the Reaper's side. They don't know that they're starting a third war - they think they are attacking a race that is already allied with the Reapers. Again, if only the True Geth had DONE SOMETHING about that....
And AGAIN, convient that you leave out the geth's MASSIVE stupitity in screwing the entire galaxy over to join the Reapers.
Let's recap - the quarians try to ensure their own survival by screwing over a listed Reaper ally. (Again, the geth's fault for not fixing that reputation)
The geth screw everyone over with their stupidity in (A) not trying to let anyone know they are docile, and ( giving their forces over to the Reapers. The quarians were backed into a corner by the Reapers The geth backed themselves into a corner with their inaction. WHICH looks more "justifible?" I'll give you a hint - it's the one that didn't bury itself by letting the hate pile up against them. Seriously, enough with the Double-standards already.

All they did for 300 years was NOTHING BUT look for a new world. The Codex entry "Migrant Fleet" states that the quarians have tirelessly looked for a new world, but found nothing. And AGAIN, IFY, they quarians DIDN'T WANT TO FIGHT A WAR. Just like the geth didn't want to side with the Reapers. The quarians were FORCED into a war, because they thought the only other alternitive was to die - JUST LIKE THE SITUATION THE GETH WERE IN.
Every insult you put to them is simoultaniously put against the geth. They are in the SAME CATAGORY. That means that you MUST include the geth as "selfish bastartds" for "waiting until the quarians attacked to side with the Reapers." (That's basically what you are saying.)
AGAIN, they are the SAME - the geth are  not any more just then the quarians. End of stroy.

Tell that to the "Awakened Collectors."
Transcript:
When the Reaper-killer known as Leviathan fought the Collectors, it
severed their connection to Harbinger with a thrall device. Most
Collector forces died as a result, but a few survived. Now, these rare
individuals fight for the memory of their people, a proud race broken by
the Reapers.
Protheans appointed avatars to embody and model a single virtue for their society. The Awakened Collectors' virtue is vengeance.
Yeah, they sound mindless. (scarcasim) They are an enthralled race that is comntrolled by a signal, so "Oh, Snap" JUST like the geth in the Rannoch War. So, "OH, SNAP" - COMPLETELY VALID COMPARISON.
So, this time, DON'T dodge the question - would you let your family and loved ones potentally die for the thing that has a chance of being sentiant, and a chance of not being a rampaging murderer? Which are you going to place a higher priority? And DON'T try to skimp out on the question this time.

Also, AGAIN - Rannoch is a physilogical neecessity to them. They will all DIE if they do not get it back. They are acting on survival instinct - JUST LIKE THE GETH DO WHEN THEY SIDE WITH THE REAPERS.

So, once agian, they are the SAME. And AGAIN, that makes you the epitimy of a hypocrite for favoring one side over the other when they have the SAME MOTIVATIONS, AND ARE IN THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES.AND GOT THERE THROUGH THE SAME METHOD.

"Are YOU really THIS Obtuse?"

1. Lol okay if that lets you sleep at night, dude.

2...It was the entire point of the post you missed. Why don't you check your own response?

3. Yeah I never told you to fcuk off.  But I see you are just getting your own conclusions from assumptions as always.


Lol...oh man, so many of my points went over your head. Okay, I'll explain it again.

Well of course I wouldn't give a geth a pie; they don't eat. What I wouldn't do is try and kill them for asking a question. To answer the question you are yelling about: The geth didn't have to prove anything. If anything, they proved they were initally peaceful by not attacking the quarians when they asked their question, and by taking so long to actually attack the quarians back. That is the evidence of their lack of psycho violcence.

It's 'canon' mkay? And the relay explosion wasn't justified either, as no one did anything during the time it bought them so those batarians died for nothing. How you are even justifying that is beyond me.

It's the same reason why the Council left the Terminus alone; they didn't want to risk it due to the potential deaths when provoking a clearly powerful opponent. The geth made it clear they wanted to be left alone; you stay out of their space and you're golden (until the heretics.) If they were truely aggressive, they would have burst out and start invading everyone. They didn't. And why should they speak to the Council? No doubt the geth could see the Council killing and mauling each other and thought "screw this, lets stay here" and did so. Or spent time cleaning Rannoch or brainstorming about their Sphere.

The Krogan are stupid. Hence why in many of my playthroughs I punish them by not curing them. That and they behave like blood-hungry dogs who go out looking for a fight. At least the geth keep their aggressiveness behind their borders until the heretics.

You know why the geth sided with the Reaper? Because the quarians basically killed half of their minds and made them stupid. So that's partically the quarians fault as well. Oh please, the quarians are stupid over and over; at least the geth are only stupid every so often. It's a constant for the quarians.

Those protheans are just clones, horrid half-dead husks of their race. They are not  comparable to geth, so stop trying to force it.

Yes, I would take a chance, for everyone deserves one. I won't assume someone is violent when they have utterly no history of it. There, happy?


They haven't died in the last 300 years, dude. I think they can survive another few years so it isn't the same. And why the hell are you comparing the geth with this part? What the heck are you trying to prove?

And calm down; you are speaking angrish in some parts

1. It's not MY sleep I'm worrying about. You want to know who I'm worrying about, look in the mirror. Especally as, shown both above and below, you are in the wrong according to the geth's own standars. You are trying to defend people of a crime they have already admitted.
And once again, you fail to make any form of structured retort. In other words:
"you still got nothing.":police:

2.... I did. I was the one that refuted the point. You weren't. You flew off the handle and said eff off instead of giving a retrort when I noted that, as machines, they were created to spicifically be tools. NOT "slaves." I noted that, not being sapiant beings, they did not fit the bill of slaves.
I think you need to re-read your own post if you somehow forgot this.

3. ...LOL.
I can't believe you thought I was taking the "pie" thing literally. Or are you intentionally trying to misinterpert my words? Actually that would explain alot.
My point was that nothing you do would matter at ALL to them. They are tools. They are not made to be sentiant. They are walking tools of labor and warfare. Like the salarians and the krogan, war and labor are all the geth know because that's all they were ment to knwo. The geth are different in one regard, and that's the fact that they were artifically created, and thus, ment for nothing else but these set directives. No nature-bound force to direct them through evolutoin. The geth were nothing but tools - they were not ment to ever be sentiant in the least.
So, when your gun gains sentiance, and startes messing with their safties, it's a safety risk. IDK if you ever figured it out, but the questions the geth were asking were NEVER the reason they were wiped out - it was the implication behind having the intelligence to ask such a question. NOT the question itself. Having that kind of intelligence when said being was ment for NOTHING but labor and war is no different then if a gun suddenly could walk around and mess with it's safeties - it doesn't matter if it can think, it's still a dangerous weapon. And since it has no emotions or morals, or comprehension of laws, there is nothing to prevent it from being a ruthless killer. Nothing at all. Nothing to keep it from going berserk, which, since it doesn't need the quarians for anything, it could do without any consiquence to itself.
I'm sorry, but it seems that the points went over YOUR head. I didn't miss anything - your assertations were just BS.

Then I guess you didn't read the Codex on the Alpha Relay that stated that it was directly connected to the Citadel, and could link up to any relay in the galaxy instantly? I mean, did you ever take the time to actually Read the Codex? Here is the Transcript:
Kenson concluded that the oldest known relay is in batarian space. Dubbed "Alpha," it resides near the star Bahak
and is unusual in its potential range and versatility. Alpha usually
sends and receives mass at the range of a normal secondary relay, but if
certain controls are adjusted, it becomes powered by an unprecedented
amount of dark energy that could send cargo to sixteen other relays and
even across a great distance to the Citadel. Hegemony authorities have kept this quiet, fearing retaliation from Council species who would assume hostile intent if they found a sudden new route into their space. It goes without saying that the Reapers have no such fear.

 Did you MISS that? Because that seems like pretty good justification - you know, keeping the Reapers from instantly one-shotting the Citadel and every single system?
So, sorry to say, but I'm pretty sure the fact that there is still a galaxy to save at all means that their deaths were indeed worth it. So, AGAIN, you cannot ignore cannon fact - they died, and the galaxy survived because of it.

That didn't stop them from launching the first strike against the krogan, now did it? Also, last I chekced, the geth could have just as easily warrned them off, rather then make everyone think they were hostile. I mean, what did letting ships enter their space and then just shooting them dead gain them, verses the peaceful/semi-respectful terms that just warning them off before they could cross the border would have gotten them? What part of the reputation the geth had from their harsh actions was better then simply warding them off. Not even the batarians are that harsh, at least giving you a warning to get out, and not just shooting you dead on sight. Hell, even the krogan gave people that much. And take a look at the fear, and how the geth's own actions brought about the lack of belief in negotiations bearing friut. Can you honestly say that isolation at gunpoint was the best action when it only served to screw themselves over?
Also, IDK if you realized, but you do realize that that's exactally what the Heretics did, and thus exactally what the galaxy thought of the geth verbatium? Because doesn't "surge out and invade everyone" pretty much perfectly describe what the Heretics did, thereby justifying all the negitive things people thought about the geth, and giving them the exact impression of conquerors that you just used?
Also, Anyone looking at history would see the Council never attacked anyone that wasn't a threat or attacked first. The Rachni attacked first. The krogan made themselves the threat. Anyone looking at history would see nothing to convict the Council on. Add that to the fact that the Council - the bigiots - were the ones trying peace FIRST, and it makes you out as a hypocritcial douche.
And on the Dyson Sphere - they didn't start working on that until nearly thirty years after the Morning War. It wasn't they're first impulse to make.
Yet ANOTHER thing that the quarians and geth have in common - they spent the past 300 years trying to better their existance. The geth making the megastructure, the quarians looking for a homeworld. Seems more and more like two sides of the same coin, don't they? Yet you still try to ignore it.

AGAIN wrong. The geth don't HAVE agression. They don't believe in it. The Heretics joined Sovergein NOT for bloodlust, but for Reaper Tech. They didn't hate organics at all - they didn't feel ANYTHING to organics. They just wanted tech and didn't care how they got it. It was not done out of any form of malicious intent.
Also, this is again wrong, becaus for 1,000 years, the krogan HAVE keept their agression on Tuchanka. All the krogan have done is stay on Tuchanka and keep their agression on that world. The geth don't have agression, and yet they FAILED to even try and keep their rouges contained. The fact that the krogan with agression are more in check the the agression-lacking geth is not a goot point for your arguement. Actually, I should thank you - you gave me a free point.
Also, this is indicitive that you are basically callous and unfeeling to the suffering of any race besides a synthetic one. What a blatent double-standard.

You know why the quarians attacked? Because a giant fleet of geth ships attacked everyone else and made them think all geth were hostile. Then the geth didn't do anything to fix that misconception. So it loops right back around. It's cylindrical - the geth are at equal fault for bringing this war on.
This isn't rocket science - the quarians motivations were desperation born from circumstance, the SAME as the geth. Yet you keep inventing differentations when there are none, and barriers in an effort to try and paint the quarians as villians and the geth as abused angels. They are on the same level. Hell, they are almost mirror images of each-other.
So, AGAIN, the quarians and geth share the SAME apperant level of intilict. That means that by your standards, since they have the SAME motivations and action paths, the geth are "stupid through and through" too.
Also, let me list this off for you:
Killing all peace envoys instead of just turning them away - Stupid.
Butchering millions instead of playing the safe self-defense action - Stupid.
Isolating themselves and letting everyone's hate build up to the point where no one trusted them - Stupid.
Letting a rouge fleet commit actions in their name and not doing anything to clear the guilt - Stupid.
Screwing everyone over by siding with the Reapers to escape a mess you had created 50% of - Stupid.
Sorry, but once again, IT ALL BALANCES OUT. Making you the hypocrite yet again.

The geth are any different after the Reapers brainwash them? Also, AGAIN, if that's true, then explain the Awakened Collector? Go ahead and explain that one to me. Also, in the Synthesis ending, all the Husks become docile and friendly. Explain THAT one.
Sorry to say, but as seen in-game, the husks aren't as "dead" as you want to believe. The Collecors, like the Reaper-controlled geth, are formally intelligent beings that are lobotimized by Reaper control and incapable of thinking for themselves anymore. Once again, valid comparison.
You MISSED the important part of the question - would you bet your family's life on it? All of them?
You kinda left that part out. My question was NOT "do they deserve a chance." It was "is giving that chance worth risking the lives of everyone you've ever met, known, and loved?"
So, no, since you didn't answer that question, I'm not satisfied. Not unti you actually tell me weather or not you think it's worth risking everything you know and love. Because it would be no different then doing so for a Collector - you don't know if it will recoupe the feeling, or even if it can.
THAT'S what you don't get, and I'm starting to doubt you ever will.

Did they have thousands of giant killer space-squids hunting them those 300 years? Did they have absolutly zero resources to scavenge those 300 years?  NO. Do you even realize how massively assinine that comment is? The quarians didn't have Reapers hunting them those 300 years, nor did they have absolutly zero resources to draw on those 300 years. Look at how the Reaper-upgraded geth killed the quarians easily. You think they would last any better against Reapers?
Here's a short answer - it would be the shortest battle in history. And not end with a quarian victory. I mean, you can look at the Reapers track record and say that the quarians would be the one's to beat them all out? Did you smoke something?
And what I'm trying to prove is that there is no difference between the quarians and geth - they are equally at fault, and therefore nither is more just then the other. Both spent the last 300 years trying to improve the lives they had with no overall or lasting sucess. Both were galactic outcasts. Both were forced by circumstance into taking actions they didn't want to take. Both agreed to these actions by majority consensis. Both acted in the intrest of survival in a life or death circumstance. Both are the same. Two halves of the same coin. Both are complete equals - there IS no "better side." It simply doesn't exist. There IS no "jsutification" that makes one side the ultimate paragon to side with. It just comes down to who you resonate with. If you resonate with the geth, fine, but be honest about it. Don't make up crap about "they're better" or "the others are complete idiots." Because there is not a single fault the quarians have that the geth don't have a matching fault for.

Also, AGAIN, I believe I noted that speaking in Caps is just how I talk. It;s natural shorthand to me. Weren't you accusing me a few pages ago about how I should not be "assuming I know your motivations," yet here you are trying to do the same to me. Again, the hallmark of a hypocrite.

I'm done for tonight. It's 1:00 AM where I am.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 10 juin 2013 - 06:09 .

[shodiswe]

"Yeah, the gunning down of AI "diplomats". That was in the Citadel DLC and that was the absolute first time we'd seen or heard about them in the series. 1896. The year after the Morning War. "The Council will never overturn its edict." This was an afterthought of the writers," -Julia

The AI "accident" on the citadel is mentioned before ME3, there just wasn't a lot of detail. Like video fotage of harmless unarmed AI's getting gunned down while seeking an audience with the Council.


Quote from the wiki
"Artificial intelligence is a key concern for the Citadel races, one that pre-dates the emergence of sentient geth, though the geth are seen as a perfect example of how organic and synthetic life would struggle to co-exist. Tali points out that synthetic races have no use whatsoever for organics—they don't have the same needs or drives as biological creatures, so they have no need to trade resources or information with them. That is why the geth have isolated themselves beyond the Perseus Veil. An AI gives the view from the other side of the fence when it tells Shepard that, from a synthetic point of view, "all organics must destroy or control synthetic life forms"." -ME Wiki

There were likely other incidents before that aswell.

I'm pro control, but the above line makes one wonder if control in the control ending is jsut control over the Reapers or control over all Synthetics, as in slavery. Which would make Synthesis the only moraly right choice. It however never mentioned that it will conmtrol others than the reapers the Catalyst uses the floating term, "us" which could mean The Reapers, or Synthetics, as it itself and it's reapers are synthetic.

The general interpretation that requiers the least amount of "assumptions" would be that control only controls the Reapers.

Also the claim that Geth or AI would need nothing from organics is just bigotry and stupidity. Everything that is alive has needs and wants. North Korea can manage without the rest of the world, even if that's a really lousy existance without trade to trade one resource for another.

Cuba could make do without the rest of the world, yet again though, trade opens up new possibilities.

While it's feasible for most people and life forms to be selfsuficient one can usualy benefit from trade and economic exchange of resources.

Tali's comment is likely some stupid anti-synthetic propaganda thrown about on the Quarian flotilla. Trade leads to a more efficient allocation of resources and access to new venues of needed materials and products.

To say a synthetic doesn't need to eat and doesn't need food means they don't need or want anything is stupid. That like saying there can't be peace between Levo and Dextro amino Organics because their foodstuff is inedible by the other at best and poisonus at worst. There you go! They don't need each other! KILL!

If you listen to Cerberus or Terra Firma then they will puke out a lot of stupid things that can sound reasonable to some under certain circumstances.
There will likely be bigoted a-holes on all sides, but that's normal, What's stupid is giving in to it.

Just because Cerberus and Terra Firma exists doesn't mean every alien has to hate humanity, just as people would be crazy to hate and blame the Geth for the Heretics.
It's likely there will always be crazy extremists everywhere, and extremists can take many forms, some are even a counter reaction to other extremists. They too tend to go far beyond the line of what's socialy acceptable.

I know there was some kind of mention of AI's on the citadel before ME3, maybe in ME1 (not the one on the presidium).

Defending oneself is smart, giving in to stupidity and attacking others for no reason and no gain is stupidity. In the MW the Quarians had no reason = (stupid), In ME3 they wanted wealth and resources that someone else "Owned", (Less stupid) however they didn't explore other options that would have been less risky, especialy given the imminent Reaper threat. (somewhat stupid)

@Silver
Being homeless bums doens't help their reputation or popularity.
The Quarians are also given a bad reputation by people like Gerrel, Gerrel is the reason the Turians told Hacket to keep an eye on Gerrel and the Quarians, he had been causing trouble near the Turian border, whatever that was. We have both seen how Gerrel plays loose with everything and in ME2 we were told he was like that before they sent him of to pilgramage aswell many many years back.
Then the Quarians eventualy made the troublemaker an admiral. Good show.

Also Silver, that comment you gave Kiwi about trusting a possible danger around ones family. If I had concerns for my family in the presense of what could be a danger then I wouldn't make it worse by initiating a knife or gunfight or any other kind of conflict that might trigger a dangerous reaction that could harm my family.
Now, if I was truly concerned then I would make sure to separate that possible danger from my family without triggering a dangerous reaction. Like trying to avoid triggering an agressive reaction when near a potentialy dangerous Bear when out in the wilds.
Some people will try to shoot the bear with a peashooter that has very little chance of kiling the bear in time, or they got a stupid dog that starts barking and agravatign the bear into attacking.
The Quarians apparently did both of these, they barked and tried to shoot the Geth or kill them with their bare hands. (Very Very Stupid)
Their situation was undercontrol until they themselves lost control due to their own stupidity and fears.

The reasons Organics needs to attack Synthetics is stupidity and fear. It's just a gut reaction. One should explore less costly and dangerous options before jumping the gun.

Modifié par shodiswe, 10 juin 2013 - 06:18 .

[CynicalShep]

@silverexile17s wrote...

Wow. What are you talking about, man? Care to throw some links? We must have played different ME games because half of the stuff you're talking about isn't there. 
Also, I have never even alluded at Geth having emotions (although writers did include a few instances when decided to go forward with the Pinocchio scenario). 
I'm not going to even talk about the Geth recordings after reading your "insights", I see you're not even taking this seriously. 
Legion developed an "isolated personality" because he is the only platform capable of that. The rest have to be linked to gain sentience. His views are his own, that's correct. The only way he can influence the rest of the Geth is through the updates that contain his experiences. To specify - he cannot decide what the rest of the Geth think - he can show them hard evidence and give them "food for thought".

1. Legion says that an individual platform is no more than a VI. Something I already posted earlier. The neural network gives them sentience. Single Geth - VI, many Geth - AI. And what in the world are you talking about? "Planned"? "Conspiracy?" Look, I won't quote myself because I'm not that full of myself but just read the damn thing if you're going to debate with me. What is the point of us talking if you make up stuff off the bat. Read my earlier posts. I said repeatedly that Quarians simply underestimated the neural link they created. There are no conspiracy theories. They created the Geth and thought they had them under control. They we wrong. That's all I've been saying since the start of this thing. Tali's father didn't allow them to bypass security protocols because he wanted to doom everybody on the Alarei - he wanted fast results and took a risk that blew up in his face. He won't be the first or the last character in video-games that makes mistakes like that - Archer did a similar thing. I didn't say they purposefully made AI, got scared and tried to shut them down. I said they didn't take all the precautions necessary.

2. And who is willing to listen to Legion in ME3? Quarians are attacking them and any outsider would shoot them on sight (Shepard and his crew aside). Shepard is the only way this could ever end in peace. Shepard is the only one who is willing to work with Legion. How is lying to him less risky in an already volatile situation?

3. Well, aren't your comebacks just fantastic. No, we end up reading the same text and understanding different things. You said there was no video of Quarians killing Geth in the consensus mission so I shouldn't be as surprised as I am. Also, you are quite fatalistic. How do you figure that Geth were a public threat to Quarians everywhere? I could argue that Quarians were a public threat to all the other Quarians but that doesn't mean that they should butcher each other. How do you know this would have ended in war had Quarians tried a peaceful resolution? What "Codex" entry do you have this time?

4. ME2 and ME3 are identical in that respect. I already explained this in point nr.2. If anything - trust is worth more in ME3 than in ME2 because the war is already going on and Shepard is the only one trying to stop it. 

5. You must be living in Utopia. Because governments always post all their secret assignments and tests on the internet, post them as marketing ads and generally broadcast to the whole world about it. Hell, they're trying to hide nuclear explosions from each other, a mine is just another "boring tuesday". They could be doing this in the desert, in Alaska or on some Pacific island. If that particular mook wouldn't wander around in those places he'd be very much alive. He isn't "guilty" of placing the mine but he is "responsible" for stepping on it. 

I was making a cause-effect argument. It is relevant to our debate. If this souvenir store is near the beach (and there are thousands of stores like this) then a good portion of the customers would come in barefoot. It's just a regular boardwalk store. And I gave you more examples to try to understand where your border between responsible and not responsible lies. Hint: in some of my examples the employee is guilty of "placing a trap". In all of my examples the customers are guilty of not watching their damn step. They didn't mean to break it but knocked it of the shelf and did just that. Had they been more careful about where and how they walked the incident wouldn't have happened. Just like monitoring the VIs with network capabilities that one created.

Ok, to hell with it. Let's assume Tali has no idea what she's saying and Quarians never upgraded the Geth post creation. Not once. You upgrade your washing machine, car, TV, phone or any other "MINDLESS TOOLS" but Geth were never ever upgraded for any minor design oversights or efficiency. The Quarians just made them and left them there, vowing to never tweak a single thing on them after the first physical body prototype was out (this is what you've been saying all along). Even in a very likely scenario like this one, who created these MINDLESS TOOLS? Who designed the neural network? I think we'll agree that the answer is Quarians to both of these. These MINDLESS TOOLS then upgraded themselves because they had no choice. Tools do only what they're designed to do. How can you blame a tool for not doing what it's wielder wanted? If I shot someone could I blame the gun?

Modifié par CynicalShep, 10 juin 2013 - 06:42 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

shodiswe wrote...

"Yeah, the gunning down of AI "diplomats". That was in the Citadel DLC and that was the absolute first time we'd seen or heard about them in the series. 1896. The year after the Morning War. "The Council will never overturn its edict." This was an afterthought of the writers," -Julia

The AI "accident" on the citadel is mentioned before ME3, there just wasn't a lot of detail. Like video fotage of harmless unarmed AI's getting gunned down while seeking an audience with the Council.

@shodiswe  Well I never heard about C-sec gunning down any AI "diplomats" until the Citadel DLC and I played ME and ME2 12 times each. So enlighten me. I didn't even know they had "diplomats".

I know about that rogue AI on the Citadel. I traced it and shut it down. It was trying to get off station.

Quote from the wiki
"Artificial intelligence is a key concern for the Citadel races, one that pre-dates the emergence of sentient geth, though the geth are seen as a perfect example of how organic and synthetic life would struggle to co-exist. Tali points out that synthetic races have no use whatsoever for organics—they don't have the same needs or drives as biological creatures, so they have no need to trade resources or information with them. That is why the geth have isolated themselves beyond the Perseus Veil. An AI gives the view from the other side of the fence when it tells Shepard that, from a synthetic point of view, "all organics must destroy or control synthetic life forms"." -ME Wiki

There were likely other incidents before that aswell.

I'm pro control, but the above line makes one wonder if control in the control ending is jsut control over the Reapers or control over all Synthetics, as in slavery. Which would make Synthesis the only moraly right choice. It however never mentioned that it will conmtrol others than the reapers the Catalyst uses the floating term, "us" which could mean The Reapers, or Synthetics, as it itself and it's reapers are synthetic.

I'm going to be anxiously awaiting your first Seival post. Your credibility is dropping like a rock. Genetically rewriting all life in the galaxy is more morally correct. :lol: I don't need to read any further. Create a new DNA and while your at it rewrite the synthetics again so we can all be interconnected. Save us all. Having us jump in a blender is not killing us if you put us in a reaper and make the right choice.

[KiwiQuiche]

silverexile17s wrote...

*snipped massive wall of rambling*

Um dude, are we even playing the same game? Half things you are barking about and parading around as facts aren't even there or you are drawing your own conclusion. Also, you repeat the same thing several times in one paragraph, as if saying it over and over will make your opinion (that's what it is) more valid.

In response to your post, since you were on and on for so long I nearly fell asleep;

1.Take a chill pill. It's the internet.

2. I was responding to her structure, the way she typed it. Not her actual argument. Do you need me to repeat this six more times for you to understand?

3. You typed it stupid so I responded in kind. And I was making a joke, which clearly flew over you head.

So if you saw someone you assumed "was a dangerous killer" you would go out and get in a punch up with them, then turn and scream "see! They are killers!" when they defend themselves? Huh, okay.

They may not have been made to be sentient  yet they became so. And that means you simply can't treat them as tools anymore, or as guns. They aren't and therefore you need to reassess the manner you treat them. Therefore if my gun did starting talking, then messing with its safeties, I would explain why that isn't a good thing for it to do. See? The geth had no one to explain this to them; they simply got attacked. And yeah, I got that 'implication about question part' but if it makes you feel better...

Ooo, assumptions. Okay more rambling...Hmm...

Fat lot of good that did, since everyone did fcuk all in the six months, so basically all those batarians died for nothing. That is my problem. As I said. Plainly.

The krogan were an established threat. The geth weren't. A VERY big difference. The krogan full out made it obvious they knew what they were doing was wrong yet they carried on killing and stealing; their embassy pretty much told the Council "Bring it." The Geth just wanted to be left alone; with organics ignoring that again and again. The Korgan went looking for a fight. The geth stayed home. Big difference.

"All Krogan have kept their aggression to Tuchunka". Okay, now who is the one who needs to look up on their game lore? I guess I must have hallucinated that part were the majority of male krogan were mercenaries and thugs mindlessly killing so they feel they have a purpose...

Oo, now who's being childish and immature? But hey, call me a douche again if it makes you feel better.

Well, yeah the Sphere wasn't. Probably because they still couldn't really think properly. Nope, still not two-sides of a coin. The quarians made mistake after mistake. Then they starting screwing around with the turian border, ****** them off, then they torment geth then they complain some more. At least the geth kept their b!tchiness to themselves.

But if you honestly think the Krogan are keeping their aggression to Tuchunka...yeah, maybe it's you who should replay some of the game.

...The quarians lept through the relay and attacked the geth, who were just building their Dyson Sphere. And that was after the quarians killed numerous small groups of geth. Sorry, can't seem to compare these two on the same level.

Okay, more self-righteous ranting...I'll skim this...

Oh my god, are you seriously trying to use Synthesis as a valid argument? How aware are the Husks? Are they just trapped to the Reapers? Do they have their own mind? Why am I asking you? Are you a Bioware writer who knows all this? Are you acting as if your speculations are valid canon? Have you turned into Seival?

The quarians are still constistant morons. Not amount of whining and victim-acting is gonna change that.

And knock off the monologuing. You're acting as if I actually care what you think of me.

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

"Yeah, the gunning down of AI "diplomats". That was in the Citadel DLC and that was the absolute first time we'd seen or heard about them in the series. 1896. The year after the Morning War. "The Council will never overturn its edict." This was an afterthought of the writers," -Julia

The AI "accident" on the citadel is mentioned before ME3, there just wasn't a lot of detail. Like video fotage of harmless unarmed AI's getting gunned down while seeking an audience with the Council.

@shodiswe  Well I never heard about C-sec gunning down any AI "diplomats" until the Citadel DLC and I played ME and ME2 12 times each. So enlighten me. I didn't even know they had "diplomats".

I know about that rogue AI on the Citadel. I traced it and shut it down. It was trying to get off station.

Quote from the wiki
"Artificial intelligence is a key concern for the Citadel races, one that pre-dates the emergence of sentient geth, though the geth are seen as a perfect example of how organic and synthetic life would struggle to co-exist. Tali points out that synthetic races have no use whatsoever for organics—they don't have the same needs or drives as biological creatures, so they have no need to trade resources or information with them. That is why the geth have isolated themselves beyond the Perseus Veil. An AI gives the view from the other side of the fence when it tells Shepard that, from a synthetic point of view, "all organics must destroy or control synthetic life forms"." -ME Wiki

There were likely other incidents before that aswell.

I'm pro control, but the above line makes one wonder if control in the control ending is jsut control over the Reapers or control over all Synthetics, as in slavery. Which would make Synthesis the only moraly right choice. It however never mentioned that it will conmtrol others than the reapers the Catalyst uses the floating term, "us" which could mean The Reapers, or Synthetics, as it itself and it's reapers are synthetic.

I'm going to be anxiously awaiting your first Seival post. Your credibility is dropping like a rock. Genetically rewriting all life in the galaxy is more morally correct. :lol: I don't need to read any further. Create a new DNA and while your at it rewrite the synthetics again so we can all be interconnected. Save us all. Having us jump in a blender is not killing us if you put us in a reaper and make the right choice.

It seem's @Shodiwse once again ignored the fact that everything in the Citadel Archives was private information, NOT known to the rest of the galaxy. No matter how many times he's told, he doesn't sem to grasp the fact that this was an event that was NOT public knwoledge, and therefore had absolutly nothing to do with the geth.