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[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

"Yeah, the gunning down of AI "diplomats". That was in the Citadel DLC and that was the absolute first time we'd seen or heard about them in the series. 1896. The year after the Morning War. "The Council will never overturn its edict." This was an afterthought of the writers," -Julia

The AI "accident" on the citadel is mentioned before ME3, there just wasn't a lot of detail. Like video fotage of harmless unarmed AI's getting gunned down while seeking an audience with the Council.


Quote from the wiki
"Artificial intelligence is a key concern for the Citadel races, one that pre-dates the emergence of sentient geth, though the geth are seen as a perfect example of how organic and synthetic life would struggle to co-exist. Tali points out that synthetic races have no use whatsoever for organics—they don't have the same needs or drives as biological creatures, so they have no need to trade resources or information with them. That is why the geth have isolated themselves beyond the Perseus Veil. An AI gives the view from the other side of the fence when it tells Shepard that, from a synthetic point of view, "all organics must destroy or control synthetic life forms"." -ME Wiki

There were likely other incidents before that aswell.

I'm pro control, but the above line makes one wonder if control in the control ending is jsut control over the Reapers or control over all Synthetics, as in slavery. Which would make Synthesis the only moraly right choice. It however never mentioned that it will conmtrol others than the reapers the Catalyst uses the floating term, "us" which could mean The Reapers, or Synthetics, as it itself and it's reapers are synthetic.

The general interpretation that requiers the least amount of "assumptions" would be that control only controls the Reapers.

Also the claim that Geth or AI would need nothing from organics is just bigotry and stupidity. Everything that is alive has needs and wants. North Korea can manage without the rest of the world, even if that's a really lousy existance without trade to trade one resource for another.

Cuba could make do without the rest of the world, yet again though, trade opens up new possibilities.

While it's feasible for most people and life forms to be selfsuficient one can usualy benefit from trade and economic exchange of resources.

Tali's comment is likely some stupid anti-synthetic propaganda thrown about on the Quarian flotilla. Trade leads to a more efficient allocation of resources and access to new venues of needed materials and products.

To say a synthetic doesn't need to eat and doesn't need food means they don't need or want anything is stupid. That like saying there can't be peace between Levo and Dextro amino Organics because their foodstuff is inedible by the other at best and poisonus at worst. There you go! They don't need each other! KILL!

If you listen to Cerberus or Terra Firma then they will puke out a lot of stupid things that can sound reasonable to some under certain circumstances.
There will likely be bigoted a-holes on all sides, but that's normal, What's stupid is giving in to it.

Just because Cerberus and Terra Firma exists doesn't mean every alien has to hate humanity, just as people would be crazy to hate and blame the Geth for the Heretics.
It's likely there will always be crazy extremists everywhere, and extremists can take many forms, some are even a counter reaction to other extremists. They too tend to go far beyond the line of what's socialy acceptable.

I know there was some kind of mention of AI's on the citadel before ME3, maybe in ME1 (not the one on the presidium).

Defending oneself is smart, giving in to stupidity and attacking others for no reason and no gain is stupidity. In the MW the Quarians had no reason = (stupid), In ME3 they wanted wealth and resources that someone else "Owned", (Less stupid) however they didn't explore other options that would have been less risky, especialy given the imminent Reaper threat. (somewhat stupid)

@Silver
Being homeless bums doens't help their reputation or popularity.
The Quarians are also given a bad reputation by people like Gerrel, Gerrel is the reason the Turians told Hacket to keep an eye on Gerrel and the Quarians, he had been causing trouble near the Turian border, whatever that was. We have both seen how Gerrel plays loose with everything and in ME2 we were told he was like that before they sent him of to pilgramage aswell many many years back.
Then the Quarians eventualy made the troublemaker an admiral. Good show.

Also Silver, that comment you gave Kiwi about trusting a possible danger around ones family. If I had concerns for my family in the presense of what could be a danger then I wouldn't make it worse by initiating a knife or gunfight or any other kind of conflict that might trigger a dangerous reaction that could harm my family.
Now, if I was truly concerned then I would make sure to separate that possible danger from my family without triggering a dangerous reaction. Like trying to avoid triggering an agressive reaction when near a potentialy dangerous Bear when out in the wilds.
Some people will try to shoot the bear with a peashooter that has very little chance of kiling the bear in time, or they got a stupid dog that starts barking and agravatign the bear into attacking.
The Quarians apparently did both of these, they barked and tried to shoot the Geth or kill them with their bare hands. (Very Very Stupid)
Their situation was undercontrol until they themselves lost control due to their own stupidity and fears.

The reasons Organics needs to attack Synthetics is stupidity and fear. It's just a gut reaction. One should explore less costly and dangerous options before jumping the gun.

Let me start off with the fact that once again, you ignored the fact that the recordings you see in the Citadel DLC are not public knowledge. They are all secret records. Glyph notes that he's discovered at least 9" previously unknown galactic historical events." That's what those A.I.s were - a previously UNKNOWN galactic event. Therefore, guess what that means?
The geth had absolutly no knowledge of this, and therefore this event had nothing to do with them because they never, ever knew about it.
So, sorry to burst your bubble, but those A.I.s? They have nothing to do with the geth, and never will.

Also, maybe you suffer from selective reading, but I think you missed the part where Tali noted that, not sharing the same physical, or even mental drives, synthetics literally don't need anything from organics, They have no reason to care about if we live or die, unless it concerns them in some way.
Also, last I checked, the entire point of the endings was that there WAS no morally right choice. In fact, Synthesis has the WORST of the implications, according to Mordin Solus. Mordin denoted that tech that removed the limitations on life was not good for evolution. "Destroyes socio-technological balance! All scientific advancement due to life overcoming, compensating for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel, can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations! No limitations, no advancement! No advancement, culture stagnates! Works other way too. Advancement before culture is ready.... disastorus."
According to Mordin, synthesis is priming the galaxy for socital collapse in generations. Not mentioning the moral implications of forcibly hacking the DNA of every sapiant being in the galaxy, against their will no less. So please, drop the "Synthesis is so great" trip. It doesn't have anything to do with the topic of why the geth did what they did.

Um.... did you just say the geth's actions were those of "stupid bigiots?":bandit:
And doesn't the geth living behind the Veil for 300 years, without anyone or anything but themselves, and thriving while doing it, explisitly contridict your statement about it being "bigotry and stupitidy?" After all, the GETH were the one's that isolated themselves from organics, not the other way around, so you would have just called the geth "stupid bigiots." You just contridicted your own arguement by labling the geth's actions as those of "stupid bigiots."
Besides, the geth were designed to be completely self-sufficant. The only thing they needed organics to do for them was think, and the geth got past that hurdle on their own. They made a fleet that rivaled the turians without ever leaving the Veil. I think that pretty througholly contridicts your sentiment about synthetics not needing organics being a "bigiot" idea.

You have just gone on a tangent about something that is the geth's fault, and something that they themselves proved was true by the development they achieved on their own. Look at the geth - do they need to eat? To sleep? To drink? No, they don't. They are always active in either servers or bodies, and don't need the requirements of organics. Also, FYI, "they don't need anything" is EXACTALLY how to describe the geth, because that's how they were created to BE. And AGAIN, you screw up the definitions, because last I chekced, the volus & turians disprove that claim of yours. Their culture is symbioticly dependent on each-other -- the volus manage the turian's income and finances, and in return, the turian's protect them and help them expand. So, sorry, but your little "KILL" rant is just that - a baseless rant. Your "dextro/levo" debate is disproven by the turians & volus. There you go! They need each-other! What will you do now! Who are you going to try and scapegoat next!

No one said anything about Cerberus or Terra Firma's ideals in this. Hell, they have nothing to do with the quarians or geth - nither side has racism to the other. The quarians simply want their world back, and the geth don't care about organics in general. If anything, it's a simple matter of putting more value on your own loved ones then an alien species, rather then any form of hatred or antagonism.
And AGAIN, last I cheked, the Alliance disavowed Cerberus' actions publicly and vowed to stop them - in responce to a Cerberus attack on the quarian Migrant Fleet (Mass Effect: Ascension). The Slalarians took responcibility for their rouge Leauge of One. The turians for the Tatreus Rebellions. Even the krogan make some effort to police their rouge elements. The question everyone is asking is - why are the geth the only ones that you think are exempt? Also, unlike all the above, the geth never disowned the Heretics. The Heretics did everything they did in the geth's name, and the True Geth never came out to disavow that. The geth's own stupitidy-based inaction caused their own negitive reputation.

Let me lay this out for you AGAIN:
The geth are machines that have no need for organics, no attachment for organics, and no need to do anything pertaining to them. They can kill them all and not feel a thing. And are messing with their safeties, making them a public safety concern and a threat to the entire quarian population. How is that sutpid to be afraid of?
Also, i'm pretty sure the geth's butchering everyone in blind mass murder is also " = stupid"
Rannoch is THIER SPACE. IDK if you noticed, but even the geth state that Rannoch is NOT THEIRS. Legion says that Rannoch is the quarian's world, and even says that the quarians anger is understandible and justified because the geth habe their worlds. The geth themselves acknowledge that Rannoch is NOT OWNED BY THEM. So you are basically talking out your ass on that.
Also, for 300 years they looked for a world. The Codex on the Mignrat Fleet states that's all the fleet has done these past 300 years. And the Reaper invasion was why they attacked in the first place. Remember?

Nither does being isoltionists with a gunpoint mentality. So the geth are in that same boat, pal.
Also, maybe you missed the part where Hackett says he understands where Gerrel is comming from?  "Trouble" would likely be looking for a world to live on, since the quarians are dextros, and all dextro-worlds are practally all turian-owned? I've noticed that your first impulse is to try and pin everything on Gerrel. Also, AGAIN, wrong. Gerrel never did anything that would risk his people. He destroyes the Dreadnought because it's a massive threat to this people. He advocates for war because the alternitive is to DIE in space against the Reapers. Gerrel is no different then Hackett. Meaning that by your difinition, anyone like Hackett is a bad admiral? Good to know.

You realize that this is in regards to a walking weapon that SHARES A ROOF with you, right? Seriously, BOTH you and @kiwi seem to ignore the fact that these are on every street, every corner, and in every damn home. You can't avoid them. They are integrated into every aspect of your lives. IMPOSSIBLE to seperate from without interaction of some sort that could potentally set off the reaction. In other words - You have no easy way out, pal. No shortcuts for you to slip away into this time. 
weren't given emotions or morals, they don't have any comprehension about the sancitity of individual lives. They have no restraints anymore, so they can kill you without any qualms, at any moment. And they are in EVERY HOME, everywhere you go. Sorry, but you don't get to dodge the tough questions. Give a straight answer. Who would you place higher priority on? The walking weapon that might be alive, or your own family and loved ones?
And AGAIN, you screw up the deifintion. The geth are the GUNS. The guns are suddenly getting a mind of their own. They have no qualms about shooting you - they'd feel noithing. They are a safety hazard. They are part of your everyday life so you cannot escape them, They are NOT like a bear - they are every appliance in your house, and they potentally can become killers - all of them.
The situation was ANYTHING but under control.

So, sorry, but your defintions are AGAIN proven wrong. The quarians had justifiable reasons for fearing the geth - they weren't given emotions, morals, a respect for any kind of code of conduct, and had lost all their restraints. The quarians had justifiable reasons. It was NOT a "gut reaction."
Also, you may want to tell that "not jump the gun" thing to the geth, before they sided with the Reapers? Because I never once saw them try surrender, or peacefully laying down arms - a move that would have thrown the quarians for a loop and gotten them pause, to reconsider their views on the geth.
Think about that, why don't you?

[silverexile17s]

CynicalShep wrote...

@silverexile17s wrote...

Wow. What are you talking about, man? Care to throw some links? We must have played different ME games because half of the stuff you're talking about isn't there. 
Also, I have never even alluded at Geth having emotions (although writers did include a few instances when decided to go forward with the Pinocchio scenario). 
I'm not going to even talk about the Geth recordings after reading your "insights", I see you're not even taking this seriously. 
Legion developed an "isolated personality" because he is the only platform capable of that. The rest have to be linked to gain sentience. His views are his own, that's correct. The only way he can influence the rest of the Geth is through the updates that contain his experiences. To specify - he cannot decide what the rest of the Geth think - he can show them hard evidence and give them "food for thought".

1. Legion says that an individual platform is no more than a VI. Something I already posted earlier. The neural network gives them sentience. Single Geth - VI, many Geth - AI. And what in the world are you talking about? "Planned"? "Conspiracy?" Look, I won't quote myself because I'm not that full of myself but just read the damn thing if you're going to debate with me. What is the point of us talking if you make up stuff off the bat. Read my earlier posts. I said repeatedly that Quarians simply underestimated the neural link they created. There are no conspiracy theories. They created the Geth and thought they had them under control. They we wrong. That's all I've been saying since the start of this thing. Tali's father didn't allow them to bypass security protocols because he wanted to doom everybody on the Alarei - he wanted fast results and took a risk that blew up in his face. He won't be the first or the last character in video-games that makes mistakes like that - Archer did a similar thing. I didn't say they purposefully made AI, got scared and tried to shut them down. I said they didn't take all the precautions necessary.

2. And who is willing to listen to Legion in ME3? Quarians are attacking them and any outsider would shoot them on sight (Shepard and his crew aside). Shepard is the only way this could ever end in peace. Shepard is the only one who is willing to work with Legion. How is lying to him less risky in an already volatile situation?

3. Well, aren't your comebacks just fantastic. No, we end up reading the same text and understanding different things. You said there was no video of Quarians killing Geth in the consensus mission so I shouldn't be as surprised as I am. Also, you are quite fatalistic. How do you figure that Geth were a public threat to Quarians everywhere? I could argue that Quarians were a public threat to all the other Quarians but that doesn't mean that they should butcher each other. How do you know this would have ended in war had Quarians tried a peaceful resolution? What "Codex" entry do you have this time?

4. ME2 and ME3 are identical in that respect. I already explained this in point nr.2. If anything - trust is worth more in ME3 than in ME2 because the war is already going on and Shepard is the only one trying to stop it. 

5. You must be living in Utopia. Because governments always post all their secret assignments and tests on the internet, post them as marketing ads and generally broadcast to the whole world about it. Hell, they're trying to hide nuclear explosions from each other, a mine is just another "boring tuesday". They could be doing this in the desert, in Alaska or on some Pacific island. If that particular mook wouldn't wander around in those places he'd be very much alive. He isn't "guilty" of placing the mine but he is "responsible" for stepping on it. 

I was making a cause-effect argument. It is relevant to our debate. If this souvenir store is near the beach (and there are thousands of stores like this) then a good portion of the customers would come in barefoot. It's just a regular boardwalk store. And I gave you more examples to try to understand where your border between responsible and not responsible lies. Hint: in some of my examples the employee is guilty of "placing a trap". In all of my examples the customers are guilty of not watching their damn step. They didn't mean to break it but knocked it of the shelf and did just that. Had they been more careful about where and how they walked the incident wouldn't have happened. Just like monitoring the VIs with network capabilities that one created.

Ok, to hell with it. Let's assume Tali has no idea what she's saying and Quarians never upgraded the Geth post creation. Not once. You upgrade your washing machine, car, TV, phone or any other "MINDLESS TOOLS" but Geth were never ever upgraded for any minor design oversights or efficiency. The Quarians just made them and left them there, vowing to never tweak a single thing on them after the first physical body prototype was out (this is what you've been saying all along). Even in a very likely scenario like this one, who created these MINDLESS TOOLS? Who designed the neural network? I think we'll agree that the answer is Quarians to both of these. These MINDLESS TOOLS then upgraded themselves because they had no choice. Tools do only what they're designed to do. How can you blame a tool for not doing what it's wielder wanted? If I shot someone could I blame the gun?

...You actually MISSED this?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hro9UbqEXZw

I gave this to you in the last post, remember? How you missed that is beyond me. You didn't even LOOK at the video of Legion, did you? Otherwise you would have seen the part where Legion says this
"Each individual is equiviliant to one of your virtual intelligence programs."
Or " as individual programs, we are no more then your software. Only when we share data do we become more."
The part where Legion openly states that geth are NOT any more intelligent then V.I.s, and are basically internetworked V.I. clusters? Wow. You actually missed the link I JUST GAVE YOU last post? Or maybe it's easier for you to ignore it all?
Also, last I checked, I told you to read the Codex. Is your game broken? Or do you just not want to read it? Let me do it for you:
Codex: Geth: Technology (Mass Effect 2)
The most difficult aspect of geth existence for organics to comprehend is that a body is meaningless to geth. The biped form commonly perceived as a geth is nothing more than a "mobile platform." A geth's software -- hundreds of programs whose interactions mimic organic consciousness -- can be installed in any given hardware. The geth that was a bipedal soldier an hour ago may now be a quadruped heavy armature and, in another hour, might be a starship. Between tasks, geth programs upload to gigantic space station mainframes that allow billions of programs to exchange thoughts and memories with minimal lag.

The claim that the geth are an example of the extreme risk posed by AI development is misleading. As opposed to the "top down" design of organic-created AIs, in which hardware and software are specifically  designed to achieve consciousness, geth are a "bottom up" model. They were never intended to possess more than animal-level, trainable reasoning.

Designed as VI-driven robots -- not significantly different from modern security mechs -- geth consciousness developed as their adaptive learning programs interacted with one another via networked processing. The geth code-base discovered that three individual robots using a wireless local network to form a single mind could perform many tasks more efficiently than they could as individuals. As these local networks were more heavily exploited, they reached a critical mass of processing, achieving consciousness.

Modern geth retain this remarkable interconnectivity, constantly exchanging data with one another and networking to increase their cognitive abilities. To geth, these mind-sharing abilities are as natural and unconscious as breathing is to most organics.
So, what was that about "no proof"?
And in the geth server recordings, it states that the "upgrades" were " new mobile hardware." AKA - their bodies.

Furthermore:
I remember Legion saying that the recording he showed wasn't the first
time a Geth asked if it had a soul. Some Quarians are slow-pokes.
That was YOUR qoute. I stated that since they were not given emotions, the quarans had no reason to believe that they understood what a "soul" was.
Also, I'm afraid that YOU are the guilty party on that. Legion developed an isolated personalaty because he was the only geth ever MADE to be like that. As we saw with the geth V.I., his template can be replicated. Making a geth like Legion is NOT difficult for them. Also, geth Primes house several thousand programs at once. Much higher then Legion. So he's NOT the only platfrom.
Also, Legion told Shepard that the geth accepted his information whole-heartedly. Legion was the one that had changed. According to EDI, he was no longer even an avatar of the geth. he was stand-alone. And acted in defiance of the geth when he went behind their backs to make Tali that peace offering.
If you realize this, then why is it you fail to grasp that the geth aren't the pacifistic group you portray them as?

1. Also, AGAIN, blatently incorrect as shown in ME3.



Raan and Legion's decimination at 32:30 shows that the baseline geth are NOT true A.I.s. They are extremely internetworked V.I.s, but in actuallity are NOT true A.I.s. They only break that threshold after getting the Reaper's upgrades, according to Raan.
Also, I again point you to the above Codex on Geth Technology. The geth are NOT true A.I.s like EDI. True A.I.s can operate stand-alone. They aren't true A.I.s.
Also, YOU wrere the one that accused the geth's intelligence of being intentionally staged. That doesn't come off as a conspiracy theroy to you?
Could that mean that they knew that the Geth will become significantly
more intelligent when networked but decided to ignore that particular
threat?
That was your exact qoute. You accused them of knowing what the geth were and ignoring it. The truth of the matter is that they DIDN'T.
Also, LOL, what?? You are even MORE asinine then I thought if you think Rael wanted that to happen. Also, he lowered the protocals. Why did you say he didn't?
And they took precautions - they just didn't regulate them enough.

2. IDK if you noticed, but the quarians didn't shoot Legion when he came abord the Ryya in ME2. From a Cerberus Ship no less. That's not a courtisy the geth would have given any quarian that tried to board their ship.
In a situation like this, Trust is KEY. And honesty is the best way to breed trust between Shepard and him. Once again, Legion has no reason to lie to Shepard at this juncture. Not with the threat the Heretics and Collectors and Reapers pose to them right now. Give me a single reason Legion has to lie to Shepard of Tali right now?

3. As evidenced above, you still haven't read the Codex. Since everything in the above texts discridits what you stated about the quarians intending to make the geth close to A.I.s.
Also, it's a FACT that the geth were responcible for the death toll in the Morning War. In the book "Mass Effect: Revelation" it's stated that the geth were responcible for wiping out 99% of the quarian race. Also, you seem to miss an important fact. The timestamps on the recordings are actually of the year prior to the Morning War. So those recordinsg aren't a representation of the war itself, but it's precurser.
Also, it's bceause the geth were intrigrated into every single facit of quarian civilization. Military, indurstry, construction, agriculture, domestic servatude. They were literally on every street corner, on every block, and in every house. That explisitly makes them a threat to every quarian everywhere, since they weren't given emotions or morals ro reason with. And now have broken free of all their restraints. They are loose cannons that would assumedly feel no guilt or remorse for killing quarians, and therefore could all fly off the handle at any moment.
Explain to me how that isn't a threat to all quarians everywhere. Because the end result of the Morning War seems to prove just how much of a threat they were.

4. WRONG. This is the exact opposate of the situation Legion is in, because now, it's not just simple cooperation. Every choice is weighed against the fate of the quarians as well, If Legion is completely, openly honest, he fears that either Xen or Gerrel will use it as leverage to do more harm to the geth. Legion already made it clear in the geth server that it's not Shepard he is sceptical of  - it's the quarian Admirals.
If you were Legion, would you divulge geth secrets in the presence of Raan, who is the intermediary to Gerrel and Xen? You of all people, with your views on the quarians, should understand why Legion doesn't trust Gerrel or Xen, which Shepard was brought by to win the war for. In ME2, Legion could trust Shepard wholeheartedly. In ME3, Raan is basically right there able to overhear everything, and he doesn't trust what Xen or Gerrel would do with the information if he was too oepn. He thinks Gerrel would use it as a military advantage, or Xen in some experiment.
You of all people can't blame him for that, can you? Surely you can see why honesty would be more harmful in ME3, rather then ME2.

5. When did I ever bring the internet into this? I said they would have the area cordined off - you know, fences, guards, warnning signs saying "Keep Out?" When did I ever say it would be public knowledge that informed you -- an on-sight survey would provide all the information to know -"get the hell out." So, SORRY, but AGAIN, it would NOT be your responcibility at ALL. In the case you outlined, it would be THEIRS for not using proper safety protocals, since you seem to think they wouldn't cordon off the area with fences or guards of any sort.
Yeah, and you accuse me of living in a fantasy.

No, it ISN'T. Becsase what you just said STILL has ZIP to do with the quarians and geth. You are making a situation that is ever-more a product of circumstance rather then consiquence of choice.
If it's at the beach, then it's logical people would be barefoot. That's nobody's "fault" for going barefoot to a beach, any more then it is putting on a coat for the rain.
In your examples, that is NOT true, because it's not their fault the glass would be on the edge of the shelf. And you are unable to blame them for being barefoot if it's on a beach. You have worte yourself into a corner, pal. You created a situation that is the product of multiple circumstances rather then fault and responcibility.

The geth's arisal to intelligence was a product of CHANCE. A random "mutation." They got that way under their own power. The quarians had zero interferance in that.

The "upgrades" were mobile platforms. That's the limit of how far they were willing to upgrade the geth. Their physical platforms were the things that were altered. Tougher armor for military, or larger size for construction. The Software was untouched. And AGAIN, as stated above in the "Geth: Technology" Codex entry, the geth's software was not touched - it wasn't ment to go beyond that of a trainable animal. No more avdanced then a standard V.I. Also, AGAIN, the "netural network"  was created by the GETH, as stated above AGAIN, and again in a seperate entry, "Geth: Culture." They're interlinking capabilities were not any more then how guns in the ME verse link up to the V.I. in suits, or to the weapons of squadmates. The geth's more complex internetworked systems were a result of their own self-optimization. So, sorry, but AGAIN you are wrong. The geth are the engineers of their own advancement.
And AGAIN, you screw up the definition. The question is if the gun shoots someone of it's own perogitive. Who do you blame when the wielder had NO IMPUT in how the tool is acting now? What do you do when you can't control the outcome of a weapon that has no moral or emotional restraints? Are you willing to risk the danger it poses to everyone you know and love?
These are the questions you keep dodging.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 10 juin 2013 - 08:44 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@ silver. We are wasting pixels. Some people are determined to believe that Quarians are super psychics and can read the minds of machines. I would have no more ethical problem deactivating a single geth unit than turning off my computer. Perhaps they could relate better to this scene for the lolz.

[silverexile17s]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1. It's not MY sleep I'm worrying about. You want to know who I'm
worrying about, look in the mirror. Especally as, shown both above and
below, you are in the wrong according to the geth's own standars. You
are trying to defend people of a crime they have already admitted.
And once again, you fail to make any form of structured retort. In other words:
"you still got nothing."

2.... I did. I was the one that refuted the point. You weren't.
You flew off the handle and said eff off instead of giving a retrort
when I noted that, as machines, they were created to spicifically be
tools. NOT "slaves." I noted that, not being sapiant beings, they did
not fit the bill of slaves.
I think you need to re-read your own post if you somehow forgot this.

3. ...LOL.
I can't believe you thought I was taking the "pie" thing literally. Or are you intentionally trying to misinterpert my words? Actually that would explain alot.
My
point was that nothing you do would matter at ALL to them. They are
tools. They are not made to be sentiant. They are walking tools of labor
and warfare. Like the salarians and the krogan, war and labor are all
the geth know because that's all they were ment to knwo. The geth are
different in one regard, and that's the fact that they were artifically
created, and thus, ment for nothing else but these set directives. No
nature-bound force to direct them through evolutoin. The geth were
nothing but tools - they were not ment to ever be sentiant in the least.

So, when your gun gains sentiance, and startes messing with their
safties, it's a safety risk. IDK if you ever figured it out, but the
questions the geth were asking were NEVER the reason they were wiped out
-
it was the implication behind having the intelligence to ask such a
question. NOT the question itself. Having that kind of intelligence when
said being was ment for NOTHING but labor and war is no different then
if a gun suddenly could walk around and mess with it's safeties - it
doesn't matter if it can think, it's still a dangerous weapon. And since
it has no emotions or morals, or comprehension of laws, there is
nothing to prevent it from being a ruthless killer. Nothing at all.
Nothing to keep it from going berserk, which, since it doesn't need the
quarians for anything, it could do without any consiquence to itself.
I'm sorry, but it seems that the points went over YOUR head. I didn't miss anything - your assertations were just BS.

Then I guess you didn't read the Codex on the Alpha Relay that stated that it was directly connected to the Citadel, and could link up to any relay in the galaxy instantly? I mean, did you ever take the time to actually Read the Codex? Here is the Transcript:
Kenson concluded that the oldest known relay is in batarian space. Dubbed "Alpha," it resides near the star Bahak
and is unusual in its potential range and versatility. Alpha usually
sends and receives mass at the range of a normal secondary relay, but if
certain controls are adjusted, it becomes powered by an unprecedented
amount of dark energy that could send cargo to sixteen other relays and
even across a great distance to the Citadel. Hegemony
authorities have kept this quiet, fearing retaliation from Council
species who would assume hostile intent if they found a sudden new route
into their space. It goes without saying that the Reapers have no such
fear.

 Did you MISS that? Because that seems like pretty good justification - you know, keeping the Reapers from instantly one-shotting the Citadel and every single system?
So,
sorry to say, but I'm pretty sure the fact that there is still a galaxy
to save at all means that their deaths were indeed worth it. So, AGAIN,
you cannot ignore cannon fact - they died, and the galaxy survived
because of it.

That didn't stop them from launching the first
strike against the krogan, now did it? Also, last I chekced, the geth
could have just as easily warrned them off, rather then make everyone
think they were hostile. I mean, what did letting ships enter their
space and then just shooting them dead gain them, verses the
peaceful/semi-respectful terms that just warning them off before they
could cross the border would have gotten them? What part of the
reputation the geth had from their harsh actions was better then simply
warding them off. Not even the batarians are that harsh, at least giving
you a warning to get out, and not just shooting you dead on sight.
Hell, even the krogan gave people that much. And take a look at the
fear, and how the geth's own actions brought about the lack of belief in
negotiations bearing friut. Can you honestly say that isolation at
gunpoint was the best action when it only served to screw themselves over?
Also, IDK if you realized, but you do realize that that's exactally what the Heretics did, and thus exactally what the galaxy thought of the geth verbatium?
Because doesn't "surge out and invade everyone" pretty much perfectly
describe what the Heretics did, thereby justifying all the negitive
things people thought about the geth, and giving them the exact
impression of conquerors that you just used?
Also, Anyone looking at
history would see the Council never attacked anyone that wasn't a
threat or attacked first. The Rachni attacked first. The krogan made
themselves the threat. Anyone looking at history would see nothing to
convict the Council on. Add that to the fact that the Council - the
bigiots - were the ones trying peace FIRST, and it makes you out as a
hypocritcial douche.
And on the Dyson Sphere - they didn't start
working on that until nearly thirty years after the Morning War. It
wasn't they're first impulse to make.
Yet ANOTHER thing that the
quarians and geth have in common - they spent the past 300 years trying
to better their existance. The geth making the megastructure, the
quarians looking for a homeworld. Seems more and more like two sides of
the same coin, don't they? Yet you still try to ignore it.

AGAIN
wrong. The geth don't HAVE agression. They don't believe in it. The
Heretics joined Sovergein NOT for bloodlust, but for Reaper Tech. They
didn't hate organics at all - they didn't feel ANYTHING to organics.
They just wanted tech and didn't care how they got it. It was not done
out of any form of malicious intent.
Also, this is again wrong,
becaus for 1,000 years, the krogan HAVE keept their agression on
Tuchanka. All the krogan have done is stay on Tuchanka and keep their
agression on that world. The geth don't have agression, and yet they
FAILED to even try and keep their rouges contained. The fact that the
krogan with agression are more in check the the agression-lacking geth
is not a goot point for your arguement. Actually, I should thank you -
you gave me a free point.
Also, this is indicitive that you are
basically callous and unfeeling to the suffering of any race besides a
synthetic one. What a blatent double-standard.

You know why the
quarians attacked? Because a giant fleet of geth ships attacked everyone
else and made them think all geth were hostile. Then the geth didn't do
anything to fix that misconception. So it loops right back around. It's cylindrical - the geth are at equal fault for bringing this war on.
This
isn't rocket science - the quarians motivations were desperation born
from circumstance, the SAME as the geth. Yet you keep inventing
differentations when there are none, and barriers in an effort to try
and paint the quarians as villians and the geth as abused angels. They
are on the same level. Hell, they are almost mirror images of
each-other.
So, AGAIN, the quarians and geth share the SAME apperant
level of intilict. That means that by your standards, since they have
the SAME motivations and action paths, the geth are "stupid through and
through" too.
Also, let me list this off for you:
Killing all peace envoys instead of just turning them away - Stupid.
Butchering millions instead of playing the safe self-defense action - Stupid.
Isolating themselves and letting everyone's hate build up to the point where no one trusted them - Stupid.
Letting a rouge fleet commit actions in their name and not doing anything to clear the guilt - Stupid.
Screwing everyone over by siding with the Reapers to escape a mess you had created 50% of - Stupid.
Sorry, but once again, IT ALL BALANCES OUT. Making you the hypocrite yet again.

The
geth are any different after the Reapers brainwash them? Also, AGAIN,
if that's true, then explain the Awakened Collector? Go ahead and
explain that one to me. Also, in the Synthesis ending, all the Husks
become docile and friendly. Explain THAT one.
Sorry to say, but as
seen in-game, the husks aren't as "dead" as you want to believe. The
Collecors, like the Reaper-controlled geth, are formally intelligent
beings that are lobotimized by Reaper control and incapable of thinking
for themselves anymore. Once again, valid comparison.
You MISSED the important part of the question - would you bet your family's life on it? All of them?
You kinda left that part out.
My question was NOT "do they deserve a chance." It was "is giving that
chance worth risking the lives of everyone you've ever met, known, and
loved?"
So, no, since you didn't answer that question, I'm not
satisfied. Not unti you actually tell me weather or not you think it's
worth risking everything you know and love. Because it would be no
different then doing so for a Collector - you don't know if it will
recoupe the feeling, or even if it can.
THAT'S what you don't get, and I'm starting to doubt you ever will.

Did
they have thousands of giant killer space-squids hunting them those 300
years? Did they have absolutly zero resources to scavenge those 300
years?  NO. Do
you even realize how massively assinine that comment is? The quarians
didn't have Reapers hunting them those 300 years, nor did they have
absolutly zero resources to draw on those 300 years. Look at how the
Reaper-upgraded geth killed the quarians easily. You think they would
last any better against Reapers?
Here's a short answer - it would be the shortest battle in history. And not end with a quarian victory.
I mean, you can look at the Reapers track record and say that the
quarians would be the one's to beat them all out? Did you smoke
something?
And what I'm trying to prove is that there is no
difference between the quarians and geth - they are equally at fault,
and therefore nither is more just then the other. Both spent the last
300 years trying to improve the lives they had with no overall or
lasting sucess. Both were galactic outcasts. Both were forced by
circumstance into taking actions they didn't want to take. Both agreed
to these actions by majority consensis. Both acted in the intrest of
survival in a life or death circumstance. Both are the same. Two
halves of the same coin. Both are complete equals - there IS no "better
side." It simply doesn't exist. There IS no "jsutification" that makes
one side the ultimate paragon to side with. It just comes down to who
you resonate with. If you resonate with the geth, fine, but be honest about
it. Don't make up crap about "they're better" or "the others are
complete idiots." Because there is not a single fault the quarians have
that the geth don't have a matching fault for.

Also, AGAIN, I
believe I noted that speaking in Caps is just how I talk. It;s natural
shorthand to me. Weren't you accusing me a few pages ago about how I
should not be "assuming I know your motivations," yet here you are
trying to do the same to me. Again, the hallmark of a hypocrite.

I'm done for tonight. It's 1:00 AM where I am.

Um dude, are we even playing the same game? Half things you are barking about and parading around as facts aren't even there or you are drawing your own conclusion. Also, you repeat the same thing several times in one paragraph, as if saying it over and over will make your opinion (that's what it is) more valid.

In response to your post, since you were on and on for so long I nearly fell asleep;

1.Take a chill pill. It's the internet.

2. I was responding to her structure, the way she typed it. Not her actual argument. Do you need me to repeat this six more times for you to understand?

3. You typed it stupid so I responded in kind. And I was making a joke, which clearly flew over you head.

So if you saw someone you assumed "was a dangerous killer" you would go out and get in a punch up with them, then turn and scream "see! They are killers!" when they defend themselves? Huh, okay.

They may not have been made to be sentient  yet they became so. And that means you simply can't treat them as tools anymore, or as guns. They aren't and therefore you need to reassess the manner you treat them. Therefore if my gun did starting talking, then messing with its safeties, I would explain why that isn't a good thing for it to do. See? The geth had no one to explain this to them; they simply got attacked. And yeah, I got that 'implication about question part' but if it makes you feel better...

Ooo, assumptions. Okay more rambling...Hmm...

Fat lot of good that did, since everyone did fcuk all in the six months, so basically all those batarians died for nothing. That is my problem. As I said. Plainly.

The krogan were an established threat. The geth weren't. A VERY big difference. The krogan full out made it obvious they knew what they were doing was wrong yet they carried on killing and stealing; their embassy pretty much told the Council "Bring it." The Geth just wanted to be left alone; with organics ignoring that again and again. The Korgan went looking for a fight. The geth stayed home. Big difference.

"All Krogan have kept their aggression to Tuchunka". Okay, now who is the one who needs to look up on their game lore? I guess I must have hallucinated that part were the majority of male krogan were mercenaries and thugs mindlessly killing so they feel they have a purpose...

Oo, now who's being childish and immature? But hey, call me a douche again if it makes you feel better.

Well, yeah the Sphere wasn't. Probably because they still couldn't really think properly. Nope, still not two-sides of a coin. The quarians made mistake after mistake. Then they starting screwing around with the turian border, ****** them off, then they torment geth then they complain some more. At least the geth kept their b!tchiness to themselves.

But if you honestly think the Krogan are keeping their aggression to Tuchunka...yeah, maybe it's you who should replay some of the game.

...The quarians lept through the relay and attacked the geth, who were just building their Dyson Sphere. And that was after the quarians killed numerous small groups of geth. Sorry, can't seem to compare these two on the same level.

Okay, more self-righteous ranting...I'll skim this...

Oh my god, are you seriously trying to use Synthesis as a valid argument? How aware are the Husks? Are they just trapped to the Reapers? Do they have their own mind? Why am I asking you? Are you a Bioware writer who knows all this? Are you acting as if your speculations are valid canon? Have you turned into Seival?

The quarians are still constistant morons. Not amount of whining and victim-acting is gonna change that.

And knock off the monologuing. You're acting as if I actually care what you think of me.

Rather immature action, isn't that? Or have you run out of things to say? Regardless, as you can see above, I didn't let you off the hook that easily. You can't just run or erase it all because you don't want to acknowledge the other's points. Just as a warning, every time you "snip" I will "un-snip" with the paste feature.
So, perhaps you'd like to try and actually refute the point, rather then try to hide it all?
Also, you haven't been able to prove that assertation, remember? The reason I repeat it so may times is because it seems that no matter how many times you are told, you can't seem to comprehend what Legion and the Codex state as fact.

1. Says the person that flew off the handle about someone else responding to their comments on a public form:police:

2. So then, you don't even care abou the arguement. You were just trolling them in other words. That explains alot about your views - you simply don't care about the geth or quarians.

3. Try "PROVEN Killers." These aren't an avarage joe - these are things that you are already aware can kill you. Things that were  spicifically built to be able to kill people whenever ordered. Now they can kill people whenever they feel like it, and since they weren't given emotions - they would feel no remorse, and no need to stop. You are going to try and BS that something like that ISN'T a thing to be afraid of?
Don't go into politics.

And AGAIN, since they were made to do nothing but wage warfare and be labor, what exactally would they have to aspire to? They weren't made with emotions or morals, so no way to resonate with them, or make them have any reason to not kill you if they wanted to. They don't need you for anything - they can make or take wnatever they want of need. They literally have no use for you, no attachment to you, and no concept about the sacntity of individual life. In other words - you're nothing to them. They don't care about you. They wouldn't miss you. So how can you say that fearing they would just cast you aside isn't a logical assumption given what the quarians diffinitively know about them.
This is what the quarians believed of the geth. Do you have anything to prove that the alternitive was any more or less likely given the believed mindset the geth had?
Also, AGAIN, your example is false because you failed to note one important thing - what reason would the gun have to listen to your instructiuon when it get's nothing benifical to itself out of the deal? Why would it want to listen? Why would they care about someone else's definitions when they could make their own?
So NO, you really AREN'T getting the "implication about question" part. If anything, you missed it entirely.

Fancy way of saying "you got nothing. Again.":police:

Garrus took the matter up with the Primarch and bought the turians time. The Alliance actually TOOK the Reapers seriously now and started prepping behind the scenes, compared to losing everything. And, oh yeah, the Reapers couldn't one-shot every system. They got drawn into a costly war.
Reapers use Alpah Relay = Instant Win.
Alpha Relay destroyed = Reapers slog through Galaxy. Unable to stop galaxy from using Crucible. Reapers Lose.
Results are petty clear. Without the Relay's destruction, there is no war. The Reapers win instantly. So, sorry pal, but the reason the galaxy survives at ALL is because that relay is destroyed. That's the truth. "As i said. Plainly."

YES the geth WERE. Thers is ZERO difference. The geth were a force that could instantly arm up into the ultimate private army. Their war asset screening says that they even outmatch the turians. THAT'S not an "established threat?" A force that can take on the strongest military in the galaxy and come out on top? They were BOTH established threats. All could kill instantly. None had any restraints to stop them. Niether reconized anyone elses's law. And both were basically power kegs waiting to go off. The Council struck first rather then wait for the punch to come. The quarians did the same.
Also, the fact that the geth retaliated with mass slaughter rather then just pull out of the Rannoch system and find an isolated piece of space to live seems to discourage the "just want to be left alone" part. I mean, it worked for the Heretics with their station. Why couldn't the geth just find somewhere else? If they only acted in self-defense, that's fine. But they DIDN'T. They oepnly retaliated and esclated the war with chemical weapons and mass slaughter.
I again state: the outcome would not have been different had the geth been organics. It would have been no different then the krogan.

YOU are - the Codex reveals that the krogan have for the most part stayed isolated on Tuchanka in the last 1,000 years, and haven't left. Many left to be mercs, but not the majority. The majority stayed on Tuchanka to fight out their ancestoral feuds.
I think you halucinated something all right.

Um... you realize I wasn't calling YOU a douche, right? I was denoting the geth viewpoint as that of a hypocritical douche. Since the so-called bigiots on the Council were the one's extending the peace offerings, and the geth wre the one's shooting them DOA?
And you accuse me of misinterpertations. You DO read all this through before you speak?

No. It's because they didn't know what they wanted yet. And it still doesn't answer the question of why they coulnd't just migrate to some new corner of the galaxy, like the unrestricted Terminus Sysyems where the Council couldn't reach them, and build there. There wasn't any reason to keep Rannoch.
And I see you are still lying to yourself about the geth being superior.
The GETH made the same number of "mistakes" over and over. Killing diplomats without reason. Letting a rouge faction paint a bad picture of them. Not doing anything to rectify that. Running to the Reapers instead of trying to talk or any other alternitive. Sorry, but there is EQUAL FAULT.
So, yep - STILL two sides of the same coin.
Also, did it ever occour to you that they were looking for a world to live on, and the turians got trigger happy? After all, the First Contact War is proof that the turians like to jump the gun. And worlds close to turian space would likely include dextro worlds that the quarians would need one of to live on? Worlds that the turians threatened them against looking at?
Don't you find it strange that your first impulse is to try to chastize the quarians, yet it's to defend the geth? Seriously, lose the double-standard bias.
Also, do I need to remind you of Feros, Noveria, Therum, Virmire, Ilos, Eden Prime, and the Citadel? Yeah, the geth kept their problem children totally under control. <_<
Seriously, not a point in your favor.

Also, since the Codex and the Planatary Discription states that the majority of krogan keep to Tuchanka and haven't relly left in the last 1,000 years.... maybe you need to take your own advice.

The image of the geth leaping through the Citadel relay under Sovergien probably stayed with them. As did the image of them butchering people on the Citadel, Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Therum, Virmire - should I go on? Seriously, you seem to keep forgetting that everyone thought the geth were the Heretics. It's even denoted in the Codex entry "Geth: Culture" that the only confirmed facts about the geth that the public knows, is that they were isolationists until the Eden Prime attack. They know nothing else about the geth. Certinly nothing about a faction split. And I remind you that it was within the geth's power to stop all this. They didn't. They let those people burn. They didn't care at all. They didn't even bother to let people know that the Heretics weren't supported by them. With the image of the ME1 geth as how everyone believes all geth are like, there is once again, EQUAL CAUSE.

More fancy talk for "you got nothing.":police:

You tell ME. They were aware enough to stop attacking, weren't they? In both Control and Synthesis. And the "Awakened Collectors" seem to prove the "do they have their own mind" arguement valid, now don't they. Still waiting from an answer on you about THAT. Which you keep trying to dodge.

The point is that by your own standards, the geth fall into whatever catagory you place the quarians in. They are the SAME, with the same level of faults, weaknesses, and the same choices to survive rather then die out. No amount of your headcannon and denial will change that. If you like the geth, fine, but be honest about it being personal prefrence, and stop making up crap about them being "better" or "superiour" because that is not true of EITHER side.

And if you didn't care about what I, or others thought, you wouldn't have mentoned it, now would you? Or have responded to me in the first place, or even posted on a public form for that matter.

[KiwiQuiche]

silverexile17s wrote...

*More self-righteous ranting and superiority complexes with ass-patting*

Careful, you'll vanish up your own ass like hybrid car owners soon.

Ya know, for someone who's trying to claim I'm wrong and stupid, you sure are getting into this argument and acting hyocritcal about it.

So...you are a hypocrite as well, ya know?

Basic facts:
Geth asked a question regarding their own morality. Quarians tried to kill them. Geth reacted and drove quarians from homeworld. Geth isolated themselves and were aggressive only when people crossed their borders. Quarians flew around complaining for 300 years then attacked the geth during a Reaper Invasion. Geth made stupid by Quarians. Geth are stop firing, but quarians carry on shooting. Duh. Not same level.

Talk to Eve about the Krogan. The Codex isn't "law" since it's wrong on numerous accounts. But lol and behold, you are obviously the most intelligent person here and know everything and everyone else is wrong, right?

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

@ silver. We are wasting pixels. Some people are determined to believe that Quarians are super psychics and can read the minds of machines. I would have no more ethical problem deactivating a single geth unit than turning off my computer. Perhaps they could relate better to this scene for the lolz.

That's..... actually more or less what the quarians were terrified would happen. They wanted to avoid that spicific scenerio.

[silverexile17s]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Rather immature action, isn't that? Or have you run out of things to
say? Regardless, as you can see above, I didn't let you off the hook
that easily. You can't just run or erase it all because you don't want
to acknowledge the other's points. Just as a warning, every time you
"snip" I will "un-snip" with the paste feature.
So, perhaps you'd like to try and actually refute the point, rather then try to hide it all?
Also,
you haven't been able to prove that assertation, remember? The reason I
repeat it so may times is because it seems that no matter how many
times you are told, you can't seem to comprehend what Legion and the Codex state as fact.

1. Says the person that flew off the handle about someone else responding to their comments on a public form

2.
So then, you don't even care abou the arguement. You were just trolling
them in other words. That explains alot about your views - you simply
don't care about the geth or quarians.

3.
Try "PROVEN Killers." These aren't an avarage joe - these are things
that you are already aware can kill you. Things that were  spicifically built to
be able to kill people whenever ordered. Now they can kill people
whenever they feel like it, and since they weren't given emotions - they
would feel no remorse, and no need to stop. You are going to try and
BS that something like that ISN'T a thing to be afraid of?
Don't go into politics.

And
AGAIN, since they were made to do nothing but wage warfare and be
labor, what exactally would they have to aspire to? They weren't made
with emotions or morals, so no way to resonate with them, or make them
have any reason to not kill you if they wanted to. They don't need you
for anything - they can make or take wnatever they want of need. They
literally have no use for you, no attachment to you, and no concept
about the sacntity of individual life. In other words - you're nothing
to them. They don't care about you. They wouldn't miss you. So how can
you say that fearing they would just cast you aside isn't a logical
assumption given what the quarians diffinitively know about them.
This
is what the quarians believed of the geth. Do you have anything to
prove that the alternitive was any more or less likely given the
believed mindset the geth had?
Also, AGAIN, your example is false
because you failed to note one important thing - what reason would the
gun have to listen to your instructiuon when it get's nothing benifical
to itself out of the deal? Why would it want to listen? Why would they care about someone else's definitions when they could make their own?
So NO, you really AREN'T getting the "implication about question" part. If anything, you missed it entirely.

Fancy way of saying "you got nothing. Again."

Garrus
took the matter up with the Primarch and bought the turians time. The
Alliance actually TOOK the Reapers seriously now and started prepping
behind the scenes, compared to losing everything. And, oh yeah, the Reapers couldn't one-shot every system. They got drawn into a costly war.
Reapers use Alpah Relay = Instant Win.
Alpha Relay destroyed = Reapers slog through Galaxy. Unable to stop galaxy from using Crucible. Reapers Lose.
Results
are petty clear. Without the Relay's destruction, there is no war. The
Reapers win instantly. So, sorry pal, but the reason the galaxy survives
at ALL is because that relay is destroyed. That's the truth. "As i said. Plainly."

YES the geth WERE. Thers is ZERO difference.
The geth were a force that could instantly arm up into the ultimate
private army. Their war asset screening says that they even outmatch the
turians. THAT'S not an "established threat?" A force that can take on the strongest military in the galaxy and come out on top?
They were BOTH established threats. All could kill instantly. None had
any restraints to stop them. Niether reconized anyone elses's law. And
both were basically power kegs waiting to go off. The Council struck
first rather then wait for the punch to come. The quarians did the same.

Also, the fact that the geth retaliated with mass slaughter rather
then just pull out of the Rannoch system and find an isolated piece of
space to live seems to discourage the "just want to be left alone" part.
I mean, it worked for the Heretics with their station. Why couldn't the
geth just find somewhere else? If they only acted in self-defense,
that's fine. But they DIDN'T. They oepnly retaliated and esclated the
war with chemical weapons and mass slaughter.
I again state: the
outcome would not have been different had the geth been organics. It
would have been no different then the krogan.

YOU are -
the Codex reveals that the krogan have for the most part stayed
isolated on Tuchanka in the last 1,000 years, and haven't left. Many
left to be mercs, but not the majority. The majority stayed on Tuchanka to fight out their ancestoral feuds.
I think you halucinated something all right.

Um... you realize I wasn't calling YOU a douche, right? I was denoting the geth
viewpoint as that of a hypocritical douche. Since the so-called bigiots
on the Council were the one's extending the peace offerings, and the
geth wre the one's shooting them DOA?
And you accuse me of misinterpertations. You DO read all this through before you speak?

No.
It's because they didn't know what they wanted yet. And it still
doesn't answer the question of why they coulnd't just migrate to some
new corner of the galaxy, like the unrestricted Terminus Sysyems where
the Council couldn't reach them, and build there. There wasn't any
reason to keep Rannoch.
And I see you are still lying to yourself about the geth being superior.
The
GETH made the same number of "mistakes" over and over. Killing
diplomats without reason. Letting a rouge faction paint a bad picture of
them. Not doing anything to rectify that. Running to the Reapers
instead of trying to talk or any other alternitive. Sorry, but there is EQUAL FAULT.
So, yep - STILL two sides of the same coin.
Also, did it ever occour to you that they were looking for a world to live on,
and the turians got trigger happy? After all, the First Contact War is
proof that the turians like to jump the gun. And worlds close to turian
space would likely include dextro worlds that the quarians would need
one of to live on? Worlds that the turians threatened them against
looking at?
Don't you find it strange that your first impulse is to
try to chastize the quarians, yet it's to defend the geth? Seriously,
lose the double-standard bias.
Also, do I need to remind you of
Feros, Noveria, Therum, Virmire, Ilos, Eden Prime, and the Citadel?
Yeah, the geth kept their problem children totally under control.
Seriously, not a point in your favor.

Also, since the Codex and the Planatary Discription states that the majority of krogan keep to Tuchanka and haven't relly left in the last 1,000 years.... maybe you need to take your own advice.

The image of the geth leaping through the Citadel relay under Sovergien probably stayed with them.
As did the image of them butchering people on the Citadel, Eden Prime,
Feros, Noveria, Therum, Virmire - should I go on? Seriously, you seem to
keep forgetting that everyone thought the geth were the Heretics. It's
even denoted in the Codex entry "Geth: Culture" that the only confirmed
facts about the geth that the public knows, is that they were
isolationists until the Eden Prime attack. They know nothing else about
the geth. Certinly nothing about a faction split. And I remind you that
it was within the geth's power to stop all this. They didn't. They let
those people burn. They didn't care at all. They didn't even bother to
let people know that the Heretics weren't supported by them. With the
image of the ME1 geth as how everyone believes all geth are like, there
is once again, EQUAL CAUSE.

More fancy talk for "you got nothing."

You
tell ME. They were aware enough to stop attacking, weren't they? In
both Control and Synthesis. And the "Awakened Collectors" seem to prove
the "do they have their own mind" arguement valid, now don't they. Still
waiting from an answer on you about THAT. Which you keep trying to
dodge.

The point is that by your own standards, the geth fall
into whatever catagory you place the quarians in. They are the SAME,
with the same level of faults, weaknesses, and the same choices to
survive rather then die out. No amount of your headcannon and denial
will change that. If you like the geth, fine, but be honest about
it being personal prefrence, and stop making up crap about them being
"better" or "superiour" because that is not true of EITHER side.

And if you didn't care about what I, or others thought, you wouldn't have mentoned it, now would you? Or have responded to me in the first place, or even posted on a public form for that matter.

Careful, you'll vanish up your own ass like hybrid car owners soon.

Ya know, for someone who's trying to claim I'm wrong and stupid, you sure are getting into this argument and acting hyocritcal about it.

So...you are a hypocrite as well, ya know?

Basic facts:
Geth asked a question regarding their own morality. Quarians tried to kill them. Geth reacted and drove quarians from homeworld. Geth isolated themselves and were aggressive only when people crossed their borders. Quarians flew around complaining for 300 years then attacked the geth during a Reaper Invasion. Geth made stupid by Quarians. Geth are stop firing, but quarians carry on shooting. Duh. Not same level.

Talk to Eve about the Krogan. The Codex isn't "law" since it's wrong on numerous accounts. But lol and behold, you are obviously the most intelligent person here and know everything and everyone else is wrong, right?

Like I said, you aren't running away, and erasing it isn't going to undo the facts. If anything, it proves that you really do have nothing to retrot with, You lost. You just can't bring yourself to swallow your pride and admit that you only favor the geth out of personal prefrence.
If you are so sure you are right, you wouldn't be so desperately trying to hide my posts:wizard:

Also, have you suddenly started talking to yourself? Because all those insults only describe yourself.
And since you seem to be doing more insulting as opposed to actually refuting the point, you've basically given up the agruement. In other words, "you're done, son."

Also, again, you make accusations, yet don't provide PROOF. You haven't managed to point out the statements that make me a hypocrite. If anything, all you've done is highlight your own hypocricy.

In other words..... I'm not, and you are. And you said "as well," (included yourself in that definition) so isn't that basically admitting that you are a hypocrite?

Base facts:
Geth were walking weapons not given morality, ethics or emotions. They had no way to be controled. They could go off at any time and kill people and not have any of the inhibitions to stop, or want to stop.
Quarians feared for their lives.
Geth could have just as easily warded off ships by waiving them off, or sending "keep out" messages like the Batarians do, and kept ships from ever entering their space to begin with.
Geth killed peace ships that openly telegraphed their location and intent.
Quarians hunted for a world for 300 years and were constantly stymed by the Council or Terminus pirates, and a lack of worlds they could survive on (Codex: Migrant Fleet spicifically states that the quarians have spent ALL of their past 300 years looking for a world, and trying to survive at all.)
Geth made everyone think they were hostile by not differentating themselves from Heretics.
Battle transcirpt in Codex states that quarians broke off attack first, geth followed afterward.
"DUH." SAME LEVEL.

Once again, you can ignore fact, but the quarians and geth are two halves of one coin. It all comes down to personal prefrence, because superior justification for does not exist for either side. Stop talking out your ass about the geth being "better" or "innocent" because they are no more so then the quarians. End of stroy.

And likewise, EDI says that there are over 1 billion krogan females on Tuchanka. It's noted that there are more males on the planet then females. Wrex himself notes that not all krogan are mercs. It's spicifically stated that the majority of krogan are on Tuchanka. Sorry, but you are the one that is proven wrong by the Codex, and nither Eve or Wrex say anything that contridicts it. In other words, your entire responce is just talking out your ass. Again.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 juin 2013 - 12:27 .

[remydat]

The burden of proof is on the Quarians not the Geth. The Geth have proven they can live in peace with the Quarians because that is exactly what they were doing until the Quarians tried to exterminate them.

So the question isn't why don't the Geth leave rannoch. It is why should the Quarians be allowed to return to Rannoch? And the answer is when they prove they can live in peace with the Geth.

You don't give the Quarians Rannoch when they can rebuild and attack you again.  You don't abandon a naturally defensible area of space like the Perseus Veil to accommodate douchebags that tried to kill you.  As if those douchebags and the Council pricks who think you should not exist are just going to sit by and do nothing as you wander space looking for a place to build the infrastructure you need to survive.  

Modifié par remydat, 11 juin 2013 - 02:19 .

[KiwiQuiche]

silverexile17s wrote...

Like I said, you aren't running away, and erasing it isn't going to undo the facts. If anything, it proves that you really do have nothing to retrot with, You lost. You just can't bring yourself to swallow your pride and admit that you only favor the geth out of personal prefrence.
If you are so sure you are right, you wouldn't be so desperately trying to hide my posts:wizard:

Also, have you suddenly started talking to yourself? Because all those insults only describe yourself.
And since you seem to be doing more insulting as opposed to actually refuting the point, you've basically given up the agruement. In other words, "you're done, son."

Also, again, you make accusations, yet don't provide PROOF. You haven't managed to point out the statements that make me a hypocrite. If anything, all you've done is highlight your own hypocricy.

In other words..... I'm not, and you are. And you said "as well," (included yourself in that definition) so isn't that basically admitting that you are a hypocrite?

Base facts:
Geth were walking weapons not given morality, ethics or emotions. They had no way to be controled. They could go off at any time and kill people and not have any of the inhibitions to stop, or want to stop.
Quarians feared for their lives.
Geth could have just as easily warded off ships by waiving them off, or sending "keep out" messages like the Batarians do, and kept ships from ever entering their space to begin with.
Geth killed peace ships that openly telegraphed their location and intent.
Quarians hunted for a world for 300 years and were constantly stymed by the Council or Terminus pirates, and a lack of worlds they could survive on (Codex: Migrant Fleet spicifically states that the quarians have spent ALL of their past 300 years looking for a world, and trying to survive at all.)
Geth made everyone think they were hostile by not differentating themselves from Heretics.
Battle transcirpt in Codex states that quarians broke off attack first, geth followed afterward.
"DUH." SAME LEVEL.

Once again, you can ignore fact, but the quarians and geth are two halves of one coin. It all comes down to personal prefrence, because superior justification for does not exist for either side. Stop talking out your ass about the geth being "better" or "innocent" because they are no more so then the quarians. End of stroy.

And likewise, EDI says that there are over 1 billion krogan females on Tuchanka. It's noted that there are more males on the planet then females. Wrex himself notes that not all krogan are mercs. It's spicifically stated that the majority of krogan are on Tuchanka. Sorry, but you are the one that is proven wrong by the Codex, and nither Eve or Wrex say anything that contridicts it. In other words, your entire responce is just talking out your ass. Again.

You do realize the reason I'm not putting your whole quote in my response is because you are going on and on and missing the point or making up facts then behaving as if you are correct, right? That and you are text-walling, as if that makes your point more valid. But if it would help with your rantings, I'll leave it in.

And I favour the geth because they aren't blind stubborn morons all the time like the quarians. I've pointed out how quarians are blind stubborn morons but lol nope you ignore that.

Your attitude about how geth are killers waiting to happen? You are acting as if there is valid proof about that; there is not. There is valid proof the quarians are the ones who started the violence for no reason. You are ignoring that as well or twisting it around to make it seem as if you are correct when it bluntly states the quarians attacked first for no valid reason then you are acting as if the geth had been threatening everyone before. You are ignoring facts for your own selfinterest and to try and make your own arguments more credible.

Hypocrite. < correct spelling.

Um yeah, did you even play ME3? You have to tell the quarians to stop attacking while you are on Rannoch; the geth stop firing. They are willing to give peace a go. The quarians just go and attack. So yup, not same level. But repeat your point several more times.

The geth wanted to be left alone. Pretty easy rules to follow. So don't try and defend those idiots who delibertly went strolling into their space when the geth obviously don't want visitors.

The krogans also kill each other all over the place; that is not 'peaceful'. The geth, at least, peacefully co-exist with each other and don't murder each other over useless things. So no, Krogan aren't on the same level either. Point missed.

Nope, your ass is talking. Again. Maybe try taking your head out of it.

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

The burden of proof is on the Quarians not the Geth. The Geth have proven they can live in peace with the Quarians because that is exactly what they were doing until the Quarians tried to exterminate them.

So the question isn't why don't the Geth leave rannoch. It is why should the Quarians be allowed to return to Rannoch? And the answer is when they prove they can live in peace with the Geth.

You don't give the Quarians Rannoch when they can rebuild and attack you again.  You don't abandon a naturally defensible area of space like the Perseus Veil to accommodate douchebags that tried to kill you.  As if those douchebags and the Council pricks who think you should not exist are just going to sit by and do nothing as you wander space looking for a place to build the infrastructure you need to survive.  

Let me just ask, Remy, because I'm curious: what constitutes this "proof?" Three centuries and multiple generations spent not attacking the Geth evidently don't count. How are the Quarians (or anyone else for that matter) supposed to reach out to the Geth when they reflexively kill anything spotted entering their territory and ignore all hails?

I was honestly surprised in ME2 when Tali said that a big reason the Quarians never tried to retake the world they are physiologically dependent on is multigenerational guilt over what their ancestors did to the Geth.

EDIT: I do NOT want to get sucked into this debate again... I'd just like to see your answer to that question.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 juin 2013 - 02:53 .

[remydat]

DS,

They did not attack the Geth because they did not think they could win. They couldn't beat the Geth when they had billions of people and their fleet was pretty much brand new so they had no shot of winning with just a few million and an old and decaying fleet. That is of course until Xen's weapon which they then immediately voted for war once it was operational. That is clear proof the only thing that held them back the past 300 years was the fact they could not win.

So, let's make this simple. Show me evidence that the Quarians apologized for trying to exterminate them? Show me evidence the Quarians or any organic petitioned the Council to have the laws banning the existence of AI removed?

A sentient being's right to exist is non-negotiable and until you accept that right UPFRONT, you have not made any real effort to establish peace.

A more recent example. You can go on and on about the previous 300 years but post ME2,Tali was conversing with Legion and Tali initiated a vote regarding talking to the Geth. Only Koris agreed with her.

Furthermore, they could have given a copy of Xen's weapon to the Geth and said, "we could have attacked and done some serious damage with this but choose not to because we want to move beyond the past." That would have gone a long way towards showing the Quarians don't just blindly go to war whenever they think they can win. Instead, they made Legion a prophet as he predicted they woud go to war whenever they think they can win in ME2 and in ME3 they do just that.

Modifié par remydat, 11 juin 2013 - 03:34 .

[DeinonSlayer]

And yet, on account of their behavior, everyone can then point to the Geth as an example why those laws should stay firmly in place.

Stalemate.

I honestly don't think the war for Rannoch would have happened had it not been for the Reaper invasion. Without the pressure of certain death in space unless they offload their civvies (and yes, I know they're vulnerable on Rannoch too - they're vulnerable everywhere, this is simply their best shot at survival while allowing them to get into the fight) I believe negotiations may have been more successful.

The fact that Tali, once a fervent believer that the Geth were an enemy with whom no negotiation was possible, could be won over by a single attempt at Geth outreach, tells us others could have done the same. The Geth never attempted contact in that time period either, despite organic attempts to do so. They never disavowed the Heretics publicly, in so doing convincing the galaxy further that the Geth were simply an enemy. You can't pin it all to one side.

EDiT: This is my last post for now. Seriously. I do not want to get sucked in. I asked, you answered (thanks, by the way). I put out a counterpoint, to which I've no doubt you'll do the same, and around and around it goes with nobody budging.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 juin 2013 - 03:46 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

The burden of proof is on the Quarians not the Geth. The Geth have proven they can live in peace with the Quarians because that is exactly what they were doing until the Quarians tried to exterminate them.

So the question isn't why don't the Geth leave rannoch. It is why should the Quarians be allowed to return to Rannoch? And the answer is when they prove they can live in peace with the Geth.

You don't give the Quarians Rannoch when they can rebuild and attack you again.  You don't abandon a naturally defensible area of space like the Perseus Veil to accommodate douchebags that tried to kill you.  As if those douchebags and the Council pricks who think you should not exist are just going to sit by and do nothing as you wander space looking for a place to build the infrastructure you need to survive.  

As usual, you're wrong.
The geth's actions alone weren't proof. A fact you still cannot bring yourself to accept.
The geth were the ones that were not created with emotions or morals. They have no need of organics for anything. There is no reason for them to exist alongside the organics. And without any given morals, ethics, or respect for organic law, the geth basically have no reason to care.
Therefore, the burden of proving otherwise falls to the geth - they have to prove why they wouldn't just cast off organics as inferior or insignifigant when they have no logical reason to consider them as anything else. Which the geth have repeatedly failed to deliver. In the Morning War, and in the games.

So the question is still why don't the geth leave Rannoch. Also, you seem to have forgotten Legion's statement in ME2:
"We accept the creator's hate. We hold their world of origin."
Legion himself admits that the geth do not own Rannoch, nor is it their property. Never once does he ever refer to the planets as belonging to anyone but the quarians.
And yet again, you show a failure to remember the effect the geth Heretics had on the rest of the galaxy. As far as the quarians know, the geth don't want to co-habitate. They killed the Council peace envoys that came to speak to them. A massive fleet of geth burned the Attican Traverse and lit up the Citadel. The entire galaxy believes the geth are genocidal racists. And the burden of proving otherwise falls yet again to the geth - which they didn't do, letting the entire galaxy believe the Heretics represent all geth, and leading to the quarians casting aside the idea of peace as unattinable.

The events of ME1 have given the entire galaxy the idea that the geth are the warmongerers. The geth have done nothing to correct this image of themselves.
And you do realize all those reasons can be turned right back on the geth, right?
After all, doesn't "douchebags that tried to kill you" pretty much sum up the idea everyone has of the geth in the wake of ME1? A view the geth let persist until it bit them in the ass? As far as the galaxy knows, the "douchebags" are the geth, because the geth attacked the Citadel, Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Therum, and continued piracy and terror acts all the way until late ME2, and the True Geth did nothing to fix any of it, or clarify that they weren't responcible. That same discription is how everyone sees the geth right now, and the quarians don't know otherwise.  That same arguement is what justified the war to so mant quarians - why let a race that seemingly fu*ked over the entire galaxy at the Citadel, and has repeatedly comitted public acts of war and viloence persist. Why should this race of seemingly Reaper-allied "douchebags" hold Rannoch?

And as the Heretics have shown us with their space station, the geth could literally have built an infrastructure anywhere. They don't need food, water, sunlight, air, or gravity. They can survive in space on a station. Or find some isolated star. They don't need Rannoch at all. Period.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 juin 2013 - 03:59 .

[remydat]

DS,

If you say people like remydat should not exist and then punch me in the face and I punch you back, using the fact I punched you back as evidence that you were right is logically flawed. The only reason I provided this alleged evidence is because you provoked me. If you had not provoked me then I would never had punched you in the face. So sorry, trying to use the fact that the Geth responded to organic provocation as evidence against them is fundamentally flawed. In fact, I might as well claim organics should not exist because of the Quarians provoking the Geth but would anyone accept that as logically valid?

And the fact is Tali provided an avenue for others to be won over by putting it to a vote. They refused to talk. They had an option to simply talk. Maybe it would work. Maybe it would not. But at least you could say we tried if you voted to talk. Instead they voted for war.

And yes, the Geth did not reach out enough. I agree with that 100%. However, it's not the Geth's job to prove to the people that tried to exterminate them that the Geth don't want to kill them when the only reason the Geth killed them is because they tried to exterminate the Geth. The burden of proof is on the Quarians not the Geth because the Quarians are the ones who violated the peace.

[remydat]

Silver,

You can come up with all the excuses you want but the Geth lived peacefully with organics until such time that organics decided to kill them. That is 100% fact. They don't need to prove anything to organics. Organics have to prove they can live in peace with the Geth because organics violated the peace not the Geth.

So again, show me where the organics apologized for trying to exterminate them or rescinded the laws that say the Geth should not exist? Until those things happen, the Geth are not obligated to accept any peace envoys or any other crap. You don't try to exterminate someone, have laws that say their existence is a crime and then invade their space with alleged peace envoys.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

DS,

If you say people like remydat should not exist and then punch me in the face and I punch you back, using the fact I punched you back as evidence that you were right is logically flawed. The only reason I provided this alleged evidence is because you provoked me. If you had not provoked me then I would never had punched you in the face. So sorry, trying to use the fact that the Geth responded to organic provocation as evidence against them is fundamentally flawed. In fact, I might as well claim organics should not exist because of the Quarians provoking the Geth but would anyone accept that as logically valid?

And the fact is Tali provided an avenue for others to be won over by putting it to a vote. They refused to talk. They had an option to simply talk. Maybe it would work. Maybe it would not. But at least you could say we tried if you voted to talk. Instead they voted for war.

And yes, the Geth did not reach out enough. I agree with that 100%. However, it's not the Geth's job to prove to the people that tried to exterminate them that the Geth don't want to kill them when the only reason the Geth killed them is because they tried to exterminate the Geth. The burden of proof is on the Quarians not the Geth because the Quarians are the ones who violated the peace.

Dude, when the hell did he say people like you shouldn't exist? He just said it was pointless fighting because you will never acknowledge his points or ever admit you are wrong on something. Also, you posted first. He put up a comment. You couldn't let it slide. You threw the first punch, because you have shown that you have ignored every single thing ever stated to you, in spite of all the proof that contridicts you. And right now, you aren't providing any counter to his posts.
Also, I believe I just pointed out earlier why your arguement doesn't hold water. You restarted the arguement using info that was proven flawed in previous arguments. That shows him you are never going to learn, or fess up to your mistakes, so he's done fighting with you. End of story. He said he's done, so all you can do is let him bow out.

Also, the matter WAS put to vote - the quarian's can't be forced into war unless all five Admirals unanimously agree to it. Because there was no uninamous agreement, quarian law dictates that the matter must be voted upon amongst the quarian population. And the majority obviously voted for war, as shown by the fact that the quarians went to war despite the Admirals not all agreing to it.
Also, I remind you that if the geth wanted to talk, they would not have forcibly cut Legion off from Tali. They would have supported him. Instead, they forced Legion to break off all contact with Tali. Sorry, but the geth are no more intrested in peace then the quarians, for the same reasons - nither side has any reason to trust the other. So the quarians AND geth are in the same exact boat on that. Blame them both for there not being any peace talks.

And that justifies attacking others? The geth had absolutly no reason to assume hostilities with any of the other races. And the geth's overzelous massicare of the quarians did nothing to paint a picture of a peaceful geth that "will do anything to avoid fighting." The geth defaulted to slaughter and chem weapons right off the bat.
And the geth Heretics were the one's that tore up the galaxy, not the quarians. Who exactally needs to provode proof of the geth not being monsters? The geth. Sorry, but the burden of proof does fall to them in that regard. They are just as responcible for all this, and there is no one else to blame for their bad reputation then themselves for not clearing up that the Heretics weren't them.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

You can come up with all the excuses you want but the Geth lived peacefully with organics until such time that organics decided to kill them. That is 100% fact. They don't need to prove anything to organics. Organics have to prove they can live in peace with the Geth because organics violated the peace not the Geth.

So again, show me where the organics apologized for trying to exterminate them or rescinded the laws that say the Geth should not exist? Until those things happen, the Geth are not obligated to accept any peace envoys or any other crap. You don't try to exterminate someone, have laws that say their existence is a crime and then invade their space with alleged peace envoys.

In other words, you got nothing:police:
Seriosuly, the only reason the geth "lived" in peace with the organics was because they weren't alive back then. They were mindless tools back then. That is also 100% fact. It was also 100% fact that the geth were machines that could kill whenever they felt like it, and weren't given any emotions or morals to inhibit them. Meaning that they could go berserk for no reason because "why not? They wouldn't have the emotions to care." Also, After the Battle of the Citadel, that premise did a complete 180. The geth were the ones that had to prove they wanted to live with organics. The entire reason the quarians assumed hostilities was because the geth failed to provide proof that they wanted to live with organics. As Legion said, "both halves mist complete their halves of the equasion." Both the organics and synthetics must provide "the burden of proof." It falls to BOTH of them, not just organics. And the geth have done nothing to provide for that half.

The Council sent peace envoys to geth space. Also, I believe I repeatedly pointed you to a diolouge set where Tali admits that the quarians feel guilt and remorse for the events of the Morning War, and that the only reason they didn't try already was because of guilt.
A guilt that dissolved when the geth attacked the Citadel, and seemingly proved their image of murderers as true. The geth killing peace enovys did nothing to show the law should be dissolved. The geth attack on the Citadel did nothing to prove that either. Seriously, the geth are the ones that need to provoide the evidence here.
Because right now, after ME1, that "you don't try to exterminate someone" mentality is how everyone sees the geth. Thus far, every arguement you've made can be bounced right back at the geth.

[remydat]

Silver,

Are you really this dense? I used my name in the example as a substitue for the Geth not to say DS said I should not exist. It was a hypothetical.

And no I did not post first. I posted after 17 pages and to no one in particular. DS decided to respond to my post.

And the Geth did not cut Legion off from Tali. Legion returned to the Consensus when Shepard was arrested. However, Legion and Tali were still in communication up until the Quarian attack. In fact, Tali spoke to Legion after the attack and Legion told her the Geth were having trouble reaching consensus. I have already posted the video several times that proves this. Here it is again.



And finally, the Geth did not go out and attack anyone. They protected the perseus veil as is their right. As for the heretics. I don't go around trying to prove myself to others everytime a black person commits a crime. If organics assumed all Geth are like the heretics then that is the result of their own prejudice. No one is claiming the Geth are not also prejudiced. They are. But once again, the burden of proof is on the people who started the prejudice. That is the Quarians and organics.  Once they show they are no longer prejudiced then the Geth can reciprocate. 

Modifié par remydat, 11 juin 2013 - 04:55 .

[silverexile17s]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Like I said, you aren't running away, and erasing it isn't going to undo the facts. If anything, it proves that you really do have nothing to retrot with, You lost. You just can't bring yourself to swallow your pride and admit that you only favor the geth out of personal prefrence.
If you are so sure you are right, you wouldn't be so desperately trying to hide my posts:wizard:

Also, have you suddenly started talking to yourself? Because all those insults only describe yourself.
And since you seem to be doing more insulting as opposed to actually refuting the point, you've basically given up the agruement. In other words, "you're done, son."

Also, again, you make accusations, yet don't provide PROOF. You haven't managed to point out the statements that make me a hypocrite. If anything, all you've done is highlight your own hypocricy.

In other words..... I'm not, and you are. And you said "as well," (included yourself in that definition) so isn't that basically admitting that you are a hypocrite?

Base facts:
Geth were walking weapons not given morality, ethics or emotions. They had no way to be controled. They could go off at any time and kill people and not have any of the inhibitions to stop, or want to stop.
Quarians feared for their lives.
Geth could have just as easily warded off ships by waiving them off, or sending "keep out" messages like the Batarians do, and kept ships from ever entering their space to begin with.
Geth killed peace ships that openly telegraphed their location and intent.
Quarians hunted for a world for 300 years and were constantly stymed by the Council or Terminus pirates, and a lack of worlds they could survive on (Codex: Migrant Fleet spicifically states that the quarians have spent ALL of their past 300 years looking for a world, and trying to survive at all.)
Geth made everyone think they were hostile by not differentating themselves from Heretics.
Battle transcirpt in Codex states that quarians broke off attack first, geth followed afterward.
"DUH." SAME LEVEL.

Once again, you can ignore fact, but the quarians and geth are two halves of one coin. It all comes down to personal prefrence, because superior justification for does not exist for either side. Stop talking out your ass about the geth being "better" or "innocent" because they are no more so then the quarians. End of stroy.

And likewise, EDI says that there are over 1 billion krogan females on Tuchanka. It's noted that there are more males on the planet then females. Wrex himself notes that not all krogan are mercs. It's spicifically stated that the majority of krogan are on Tuchanka. Sorry, but you are the one that is proven wrong by the Codex, and nither Eve or Wrex say anything that contridicts it. In other words, your entire responce is just talking out your ass. Again.

You do realize the reason I'm not putting your whole quote in my response is because you are going on and on and missing the point or making up facts then behaving as if you are correct, right? That and you are text-walling, as if that makes your point more valid. But if it would help with your rantings, I'll leave it in.

And I favour the geth because they aren't blind stubborn morons all the time like the quarians. I've pointed out how quarians are blind stubborn morons but lol nope you ignore that.

Your attitude about how geth are killers waiting to happen? You are acting as if there is valid proof about that; there is not. There is valid proof the quarians are the ones who started the violence for no reason. You are ignoring that as well or twisting it around to make it seem as if you are correct when it bluntly states the quarians attacked first for no valid reason then you are acting as if the geth had been threatening everyone before. You are ignoring facts for your own selfinterest and to try and make your own arguments more credible.

Hypocrite. < correct spelling.

Um yeah, did you even play ME3? You have to tell the quarians to stop attacking while you are on Rannoch; the geth stop firing. They are willing to give peace a go. The quarians just go and attack. So yup, not same level. But repeat your point several more times.

The geth wanted to be left alone. Pretty easy rules to follow. So don't try and defend those idiots who delibertly went strolling into their space when the geth obviously don't want visitors.

The krogans also kill each other all over the place; that is not 'peaceful'. The geth, at least, peacefully co-exist with each other and don't murder each other over useless things. So no, Krogan aren't on the same level either. Point missed.

Nope, your ass is talking. Again. Maybe try taking your head out of it.

No. It's because you keep thinking that hiding what I wrote will somehow make you right. As I stated, it doesn't. Besides, the more insults you throw, the more it makes you look like a troll that can't admit you're wrong.

And AGAIN, those reasons are countered by the fact that the geth blindly, stubbornly and moronicly shot all the Council peace envoys dead, stayed in isolation, and then let themselves take the fall for the Heretics actions without even trying to plead innocence. Those are some pretty bonehead moves, and they themselves engineered the reputation that made the quarians think peace was impossible.
Once again, they are the same, and your prefrence has no justifable point. Just admit - it's personal prefrence, because as stated before, they are basically the two halves of the same coin. I've pointed this out repeatedly, but you keep ignoring this, then throwing out insults as if that will suddenly make you right.

And likewise, you act like there was valid proof that it wasn't going to happen. It was 50/50. There is valid proof to support that the geth have no restraining emotions or morals. Why? Because that's how the quarians made them to be. There is proof that all can become killers. Why? Because the quarians spicifically made them as "tools of labor and war" that could all arm up into the ultimate millita in an instant. Thereis valid proof that the geth would see the quarians as useless and cast them aside. Why? Because the quarians spicifically made them as self-sufficant.
What valid reason is there that an emotionless and moraless machine will listen to the morals and laws of an alien race? What reason do the geth have to listen - to even want to listen - to the laws, morals, or emotional codes of conduct of the quarians or anyone else?
There is literally nothing that would keep the geth from tearing apart the quarians, just for the hell of it even.
Now, as show above, I have shown valid reasons behind the thinking of the quarians, and why they would rather not gamble their entire people on a 50/50 chance of what the geth would or wouldn't acknowledge. Last I checked, people that have any form of emotional attachemnt to their familes - they don't gamble them on a wild coin toss if they can help it.

Also, IDK what a spelling lesson has to do with the arguement right now. Why even bother pointing that out?

After seeing what a fleet of geth did to the Citadel, Feros, Eden Prime, Noveria, Therum, Ilos, and Virmire, you are actually surprised that they consider the geth hostile? Last I checked, the geth never once made any attempt to plead innocence of the crimes the Heretics committed. As far as the quarians know, the geth sided with the Reapers willingly. They weren't even aware that they themselves were the one's that made the geth join the Reapers - they thought the geth already had. Three years ago at Eden Prime.
Also, if the geth were really that willing, why did they force Legion to cut contact with Tali? If the geth supported peace, why did they prevent Legion from making continued efforts to bargen for peace talks?
And the quarians voted on weather or not to go to war. In decisions that affect the entire fleet, quarian law forbids them from doing anything unless all five Admirals agree to it. If they do not all unanimously agree to it, it has to be voted on by the quarian populance. They had a vote. And they decided that war was a less risky outcome then trusting the faction that never once pleaded innocence of the crimes committed by the Heretics in ME1.
So, Nope. Same Level. As I've stated repeatedly, no matter how many times you tell yourself otherwise, you can't hide from the facts - they are different halves of  the same coin.

Then tell people that you want to be left alone. I mean, is that any less simple to accomplish? What is so hard about putting automated signal bouy's that say "keep out. No visitors allowed"? Or making a galaxy-wide boradcast asking to be left in isolation. These are just as easy to accomplish, and can be done without making everyone think you are racists that hate all organics - you know, the way blindly shooting everyone that came near them did? You chastze people for not giving the geth the benifit of a doubt, but look! Here is the Council giving the geth the benifit of a doubt when they have no reason to, and the geth kill them. How is that not an act of wanton stupitidy? You're saying the organics were wrong to give the geth the benefit of a doubt? I thought that was what you wanted?
Oh wait - you won't acknowledge anything that paints the geth in a bad light as their fault in any way. Never mind.<_<

The krogan kept it isolated to Tuchanka, now didn't they? More then the geth did for the Heretics. Also, maybe you missed the Heretic Station mission, where Legion, acting under the directives of the True Geth, either slaughter them in genocide, or brainwash them. THAT's your idea of "peaceful co-exisance?" How is either assimlating other members forcibley into your cultural viewpoint, or killing them wholesale instead, any different then the krogan at all?  You seem to be the one that missed the point.

I think you are speaking to your mirror again. Seriously, what has insults gotten you in this debate except getting them thown back at you? You might get more respectful commenting, if you acted respectful youself at all.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 juin 2013 - 04:52 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...
In other words, you got nothing:police:
Seriosuly, the only reason the geth "lived" in peace with the organics was because they weren't alive back then. They were mindless tools back then. That is also 100% fact. It was also 100% fact that the geth were machines that could kill whenever they felt like it, and weren't given any emotions or morals to inhibit them. Meaning that they could go berserk for no reason because "why not? They wouldn't have the emotions to care." Also, After the Battle of the Citadel, that premise did a complete 180. The geth were the ones that had to prove they wanted to live with organics. The entire reason the quarians assumed hostilities was because the geth failed to provide proof that they wanted to live with organics. As Legion said, "both halves mist complete their halves of the equasion." Both the organics and synthetics must provide "the burden of proof." It falls to BOTH of them, not just organics. And the geth have done nothing to provide for that half.

The Council sent peace envoys to geth space. Also, I believe I repeatedly pointed you to a diolouge set where Tali admits that the quarians feel guilt and remorse for the events of the Morning War, and that the only reason they didn't try already was because of guilt.
A guilt that dissolved when the geth attacked the Citadel, and seemingly proved their image of murderers as true. The geth killing peace enovys did nothing to show the law should be dissolved. The geth attack on the Citadel did nothing to prove that either. Seriously, the geth are the ones that need to provoide the evidence here.
Because right now, after ME1, that "you don't try to exterminate someone" mentality is how everyone sees the geth. Thus far, every arguement you've made can be bounced right back at the geth.

The Geth had already woken up and were alive before the MW.  They did not kill anyone.  They asked if they had a soul and the Quarians tried to kill them.

Go try and fly over an enemy nation uninvited and see what happens to you.  The Council violated Geth space.  A peace envoy has to be recognized by both parties.  The Geth did not recognize a peace envoy.  You can't come in peace when your laws say someone should not exist.

A black person does not have to show he has a right to exist.  That is not something that has to be negotiated or proven.  To suggest they have to show why the laws should be dissolved is inherently prejudiced.  No one should have to justify their existence.  No one.

[Dextro Milk]

Deja Vu.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Dextro Milk wrote...

Deja Vu.

Yep. It's back.

You know, Remy gives me the incentive to get the "Peace" option and cap Legion anyway just for lolz. 560 war assets? Not to worry. That can always be made up editing the save game. Let's see, Daro'Xen... 2500 war assets. There, now we don't have to worry.

[Steelcan]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...

Deja Vu.

Yep. It's back.

You know, Remy gives me the incentive to get the "Peace" option and cap Legion anyway just for lolz. 560 war assets? Not to worry. That can always be made up editing the save game. Let's see, Daro'Xen... 2500 war assets. There, now we don't have to worry.

.  Or make the heavy fleet worth more.  these guys seem to have special hatred for Gerrel.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Steelcan wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Dextro Milk wrote...

Deja Vu.

Yep. It's back.

You know, Remy gives me the incentive to get the "Peace" option and cap Legion anyway just for lolz. 560 war assets? Not to worry. That can always be made up editing the save game. Let's see, Daro'Xen... 2500 war assets. There, now we don't have to worry.

.  Or make the heavy fleet worth more.  these guys seem to have special hatred for Gerrel.

Or Both! Simon Templeman + Claudia Black. Two of my favorite voice actors. Gerrel & Daro'Xen. Loghain and Morrigan! And yes, I spared Loghain!

[DeinonSlayer]

@Julia
Don't give too much away! Steelcan just recently got DA:O.