1071 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

klarabella wrote...

remydat wrote...
You don't understand.  The Geth don't need stuff like fuel for their ships.  Just like manna fell from heaven to feed the Israelites, fuel will fall from heaven to keep their ships running.

Actually, they don't need fuel, at least not that much. Unlike organics who age and need food and such stuff the geth have all the time in the world. Moving through truly empty space doesn't take a lot of fuel if you're ready for it to take a very long time.

All they need is a push in the right direction. That's how empty space works.

Ships don't need fuel in the MEU?  So they should just float about slowly and hope no organic wants to attack them?  Just so the bigots can have their planet back?

Now you are just ranting.
Seriously, the geth in the Heretic Station got power from energy converters that absorbed cosmic radiation. That's how they produced the energy they needed. They DON'T have the same limitations organics do, because unlike us, they can safely work with cosmic radiation. They get their energy directly from space radiation. Can't get a better power sorurce then that. Unless you make a Dyson Sphere.

[silverexile17s]

favoritehookeronthecitadel wrote...

We should all play a drinking game. Every time someone writes a post in this thread that's longer than 20 paragraphs, we take a shot.

Good luck with your hangover then. I like to exposit.

[nos_astra]

remydat wrote...
Ships don't need fuel in the MEU?  So they should just float about slowly and hope no organic wants to attack them?  Just so the bigots can have their planet back?

Without any external force to slow them down all they need is one push. The movement and speed will be the same unless an external force will slow them down. All they have to do is speed up ... and then monitor the speed and not slow the ship down. The space between the galaxies is empty IIRC so one push is all they need. Literally.

You have never really thought about how ship drives work, right?

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

This was never about racism. Never. Not once. It's about these races respecive actions, not their race. The only one bringing up racisim in this debate it you and you alone.
The galaxy is distructful of the geth because the geth killed those unarmed peace envoys. In spite of the quarian's protests, the galaxy gave the geth a benifet of a doubt, and had it tossed right back at them, seemingly proving the quarians right about the geth.

Also, the Heretics did it, didn't they? And did so in, what, months? You expect me to believe that if 7% of the geth could relocate in a few months to a station inbewteen stars, but that the rest of the geth couldn't migrate to an unknown system in 300 years?

And YES - this arguement is being made for organics as well - the krogan. The debate would be no different if the geth were organics! Because it's NOT race that they are being judged on - it's their actions.
And if the geth didn't want people to distrust them, why didn't the just say "leave us alone" instead of waiting for people to come and talk to them, and then shoot them dead when they tired?? The only one ranting about bigotry is you. You are jumping at shadows, dude. The only one fabricating things is you.

If you discriminate against a group because of who they are, it is prejudiced or racist.  The Council discriminated against all synthetics because they outlawed their existence.  The Quarians tried to exterminate them in part because of this law and the fear they would attack them even though the Geth had done nothing to them.  It doesn't get more prejudiced and racist than that.

The heretics did what exactly?  I am pretty sure it is easier to relocate 7% of a population than it is to relocate 93% of a population.  Do you think relocating 70 million chinese people is the same as relocating 930 million chinese people?  The resources required is vastly different.  And the heretics were still operating in known areas of space with known resources.

[silverexile17s]

klarabella wrote...

remydat wrote...
Ships don't need fuel in the MEU?  So they should just float about slowly and hope no organic wants to attack them?  Just so the bigots can have their planet back?

Without any external force to slow them down all they need is one push. The movement and speed will be the same unless an external force will slow them down. All they have to do is speed up ... and then monitor the speed and not slow the ship down. The space between the galaxies is empty IIRC so one push is all they need. Literally.

You have never really thought about how ship drives work, right?

And mass effect is just basically capitolizing on this concept - big enough push sends you light-years away.
It's centrifugal force.

[S.A.K]

Must... stay...out...of....debate...

[shodiswe]

klarabella wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
A fleet containing Billions of Geth would be a lot easier to track than a lonely ship flying off into deepspace like in Ascention.

Honey, I don't know why the lore is so hard for you to grasp: There is no way of tracking down a ship when they go FTL. There would be no traces of them. They would just disappear. 

The only risk is that someone at some point will accidentally stumble upon them while trying to further explore the galaxy.

That depends how recent it was, Ships traveling at FTL emits radiation. Millions of ships would emit quite a lot of radiation. Eventualy someone would likely pickup on the trail of a continuous radiation source from millions of ship traveling in FTL together.

I also belive it would be hard for the Geth to move their entire population far enough. I don't think they got enough ships to do it in just one run.


From the Wiki: http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/FTL


To an outside observer, a ship within a mass effect drive envelope appears to have blue-shifted. If within a field that allows travel at twice the speed of light, any radiation it emits has twice the energy as normal. If the ship is in a field of about 200 times lightspeed, it radiates visible light as x-rays and gamma rays, and the infrared heat from the hull is blue-shifted up into the visible spectrum or higher.
Ships moving at FTL are visible at great distances, though their signature will only propagate at the speed of light. According to Engineer Adams, the SSV Normandy's stealth system does not work at FTL speeds because that blue-shifts the ship's emissions into frequencies too high to capture in the hull sinks.


Granted identifying what ship/s it is might be hard but a million Geth ships travelign and emittign massive amounts of radiation and energy would be noticable eventualy and if the Quarians move to the Rannoch then they will be able to see that radiation for a very logn time.
If the Geth travel 1000 lightyears then the radiation will continuously be noticable from Rannoch for a thousand years.

one or two ships might not be that noticable froma distance and the further away they get the weaker the radiation will get, but it will be detectable for quite some time.
Also the amount of energy invovled in moving millions of ships requiered for moving those billions of Geth woudl be massive, the Geth had built that sphere for centuries and it still wasn't able to contain all their people. the fleet needed would be epic. The energy output would be unimaginable.

Wouldn't the Quarians wonder where the Geth went if they suddenly discovered that Rannoch was abandoned?

Modifié par shodiswe, 11 juin 2013 - 08:10 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Now you are just ranting.
Seriously, the geth in the Heretic Station got power from energy converters that absorbed cosmic radiation. That's how they produced the energy they needed. They DON'T have the same limitations organics do, because unlike us, they can safely work with cosmic radiation. They get their energy directly from space radiation. Can't get a better power sorurce then that. Unless you make a Dyson Sphere.

Where did they get the parts to build this single station?  Where did they get the parts to build the energy converters?  What hapens when parts break down?  Where will they get the materials to fix them?

And did they use cosmic radiation to power the space station, ships or both?  If they used them to power their ships then please provide a link and I will read it.  There is a difference between electricity for example powering a station and fuel powering a car.

And once again, why should the Geth move so the people that tried to kill them can have a planet?  If the Quarians want a planet then go talk to the Council ie their allies not the enemy they tried to exterminate.

Modifié par remydat, 11 juin 2013 - 08:13 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

This was never about racism. Never. Not once. It's about these races respecive actions, not their race. The only one bringing up racisim in this debate it you and you alone.
The galaxy is distructful of the geth because the geth killed those unarmed peace envoys. In spite of the quarian's protests, the galaxy gave the geth a benifet of a doubt, and had it tossed right back at them, seemingly proving the quarians right about the geth.

Also, the Heretics did it, didn't they? And did so in, what, months? You expect me to believe that if 7% of the geth could relocate in a few months to a station inbewteen stars, but that the rest of the geth couldn't migrate to an unknown system in 300 years?

And YES - this arguement is being made for organics as well - the krogan. The debate would be no different if the geth were organics! Because it's NOT race that they are being judged on - it's their actions.
And if the geth didn't want people to distrust them, why didn't the just say "leave us alone" instead of waiting for people to come and talk to them, and then shoot them dead when they tired?? The only one ranting about bigotry is you. You are jumping at shadows, dude. The only one fabricating things is you.

If you discriminate against a group because of who they are, it is prejudiced or racist.  The Council discriminated against all synthetics because they outlawed their existence.  The Quarians tried to exterminate them in part because of this law and the fear they would attack them even though the Geth had done nothing to them.  It doesn't get more prejudiced and racist than that.

The heretics did what exactly?  I am pretty sure it is easier to relocate 7% of a population than it is to relocate 93% of a population.  Do you think relocating 70 million chinese people is the same as relocating 930 million chinese people?  The resources required is vastly different.  And the heretics were still operating in known areas of space with known resources.

But nobody is doing that but YOU. You are the only one using that concept. People are judging the geth on their actions, not their racial standing.  The Council discriminated against synthetics because, lacking morals or emotions, there is no logical reason why synthetics would ever ackowledge organic law or rights. Or even treat them as equals. It's fear of how they will react to organics. Same as the fear of how the krogan were going rampant cause the Council to throw the first punch in the Krogan Rebellions. Was it wrong to outlaw them? - Hell yes, and I agree to that -  but the fear wasn't unjustified. And it was based on future actions, not race.
The quarians reacted to the geth because the geth weren't given moral or ethical boundries - nothing to make the geth want to acknowledge organics as useful. And self-sufficant, so they didn't need organics at all.
The quarians didn't do this out of a racial prejudice. That's the complete opposate of what happened. They did it out of simple fear.
Is it racist to pick saving your family over the life of a total stranger? No. It's natural. Is it racist to place more value on your family then a being that might go berserk on you any moment? NO.

The Heretics relocated nearly a tenth of the population in months. One tenth, say, every six months. That would be the entire geth population in five years. Vs the 300 years that they did nothing.
Also, do you think moving tightly compactible geth bodies, that can be dissassembled or tightly packed together, are like moving organics at all? Again, no comparison. Also, here's a fact for you - the Sea of Storms is an unknwon location. It's only known by the geth since most star maps are lost, and even then, it's a nebula, meaning you can't find anything unless you know exactally wehre the look. After all, the Alliance and Council never found it in the two years between games. And the geth got their power by using energy that siphoned residual cosmic radiation eminating from the surrounding stars and the nebula itself. They were set for life.

[nos_astra]

shodiswe wrote...
That depends how recent it was, Ships traveling at FTL emits radiation. Millions of ships would emit quite a lot of radiation. Eventualy someone would likely pickup on the trail of a continuous radiation source from millions of ship traveling in FTL together.

I also belive it would be hard for the Geth to move their entire population far enough. I don't think they got enough ships to do it in just one run.

From the Wiki: http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/FTL

To an outside observer, a ship within a mass effect drive envelope appears to have blue-shifted. If within a field that allows travel at twice the speed of light, any radiation it emits has twice the energy as normal. If the ship is in a field of about 200 times lightspeed, it radiates visible light as x-rays and gamma rays, and the infrared heat from the hull is blue-shifted up into the visible spectrum or higher.
Ships moving at FTL are visible at great distances, though their signature will only propagate at the speed of light. According to Engineer Adams, the SSV Normandy's stealth system does not work at FTL speeds because that blue-shifts the ship's emissions into frequencies too high to capture in the hull sinks.

All right, so it's possible to trace them. 

It doesn't change that the decision to occupy Rannoch to the bitter end instead of leaving is really unreasonable if they wanted to live in peace. 

The quarians might try to follow them if they leave and they lose mines (although the Normandy can probe planets and deplete them without any sort of infrastructure). They still have the advantage of disengaging every battle. You can't force battle in space. 

However, the quarians will find them if they stay on Rannoch. And they will attack, trying to get their homeworld back.

[remydat]

klarabella wrote...

remydat wrote...
Ships don't need fuel in the MEU?  So they should just float about slowly and hope no organic wants to attack them?  Just so the bigots can have their planet back?

Without any external force to slow them down all they need is one push. The movement and speed will be the same unless an external force will slow them down. All they have to do is speed up ... and then monitor the speed and not slow the ship down. The space between the galaxies is empty IIRC so one push is all they need. Literally.

You have never really thought about how ship drives work, right?

No I haven't in any detail.  If you have links that say little energy is required and that the Geth magically have the resources to move millions or billions of Geth en masse to unknown parts of space then let me know.  Let me know too where they will find enough minerals, metals, and the like to maintain this massive fleet.  Does this all run on space magic?

Finally, why should they move for people that have never set foot on Rannoch?  Why can't those a**holes simple learn to live peacefully with the Geth like their ancestors were doing before they decided to exterminate them?  Why must the Geth segregate themselves just to make the Quarians happy?

[KiwiQuiche]

silverexile17s wrote...


No. It's because you keep thinking that hiding what I wrote will somehow make you right. As I stated, it doesn't. Besides, the more insults you throw, the more it makes you look like a troll that can't admit you're wrong.

And AGAIN, those reasons are countered by the fact that the geth blindly, stubbornly and moronicly shot all the Council peace envoys dead, stayed in isolation, and then let themselves take the fall for the Heretics actions without even trying to plead innocence. Those are some pretty bonehead moves, and they themselves engineered the reputation that made the quarians think peace was impossible.
Once again, they are the same, and your prefrence has no justifable point. Just admit - it's personal prefrence, because as stated before, they are basically the two halves of the same coin. I've pointed this out repeatedly, but you keep ignoring this, then throwing out insults as if that will suddenly make you right.

And likewise, you act like there was valid proof that it wasn't going to happen. It was 50/50. There is valid proof to support that the geth have no restraining emotions or morals. Why? Because that's how the quarians made them to be. There is proof that all can become killers. Why? Because the quarians spicifically made them as "tools of labor and war" that could all arm up into the ultimate millita in an instant. Thereis valid proof that the geth would see the quarians as useless and cast them aside. Why? Because the quarians spicifically made them as self-sufficant.
What valid reason is there that an emotionless and moraless machine will listen to the morals and laws of an alien race? What reason do the geth have to listen - to even want to listen - to the laws, morals, or emotional codes of conduct of the quarians or anyone else?
There is literally nothing that would keep the geth from tearing apart the quarians, just for the hell of it even.
Now, as show above, I have shown valid reasons behind the thinking of the quarians, and why they would rather not gamble their entire people on a 50/50 chance of what the geth would or wouldn't acknowledge. Last I checked, people that have any form of emotional attachemnt to their familes - they don't gamble them on a wild coin toss if they can help it.

Also, IDK what a spelling lesson has to do with the arguement right now. Why even bother pointing that out?

After seeing what a fleet of geth did to the Citadel, Feros, Eden Prime, Noveria, Therum, Ilos, and Virmire, you are actually surprised that they consider the geth hostile? Last I checked, the geth never once made any attempt to plead innocence of the crimes the Heretics committed. As far as the quarians know, the geth sided with the Reapers willingly. They weren't even aware that they themselves were the one's that made the geth join the Reapers - they thought the geth already had. Three years ago at Eden Prime.
Also, if the geth were really that willing, why did they force Legion to cut contact with Tali? If the geth supported peace, why did they prevent Legion from making continued efforts to bargen for peace talks?
And the quarians voted on weather or not to go to war. In decisions that affect the entire fleet, quarian law forbids them from doing anything unless all five Admirals agree to it. If they do not all unanimously agree to it, it has to be voted on by the quarian populance. They had a vote. And they decided that war was a less risky outcome then trusting the faction that never once pleaded innocence of the crimes committed by the Heretics in ME1.
So, Nope. Same Level. As I've stated repeatedly, no matter how many times you tell yourself otherwise, you can't hide from the facts - they are different halves of  the same coin.

Then tell people that you want to be left alone. I mean, is that any less simple to accomplish? What is so hard about putting automated signal bouy's that say "keep out. No visitors allowed"? Or making a galaxy-wide boradcast asking to be left in isolation. These are just as easy to accomplish, and can be done without making everyone think you are racists that hate all organics - you know, the way blindly shooting everyone that came near them did? You chastze people for not giving the geth the benifit of a doubt, but look! Here is the Council giving the geth the benifit of a doubt when they have no reason to, and the geth kill them. How is that not an act of wanton stupitidy? You're saying the organics were wrong to give the geth the benefit of a doubt? I thought that was what you wanted?
Oh wait - you won't acknowledge anything that paints the geth in a bad light as their fault in any way. Never mind.<_<

The krogan kept it isolated to Tuchanka, now didn't they? More then the geth did for the Heretics. Also, maybe you missed the Heretic Station mission, where Legion, acting under the directives of the True Geth, either slaughter them in genocide, or brainwash them. THAT's your idea of "peaceful co-exisance?" How is either assimlating other members forcibley into your cultural viewpoint, or killing them wholesale instead, any different then the krogan at all?  You seem to be the one that missed the point.

I think you are speaking to your mirror again. Seriously, what has insults gotten you in this debate except getting them thown back at you? You might get more respectful commenting, if you acted respectful youself at all.

So you know what I'm thinking better than myself? That explains a lot. But no, that was my actual reason. That and your massive text-walls were eating the page and making it load strangely. But I'm glad you know my thought process better than myself.

You started the mud slinging, dude, so don't try and act the innocent debator here. You are also throwing insults at me. So yup, you are using that word of yours again.

Why the hell would the geth even want to communicate with organics? In most cases of 'envoys' and the like you are contacting the other person because you want something; information, weapons, resources. The geth didn't need that. They didn't want it and made it very clear they didn't want 'friendship' with organics. If they are left alone, the geth are fine with organics running around.

The quarians and geth are not two sides of the same coin! That is what I'm arguing. They behaved differently, maybe even similar, but on the whole, different circumstances, so they cannot be held on the same level with their actions. Morning War, Rannoch Arc; Geth and Quarians reacted differently, therefore they cannot be judged the same.

If someone has the high potential to become a cold, efficent killer, you do not provoke them. You don't goad them into attacking you, which is pretty much what the quarians did. The geth could barely think as it is, but as you saw in the Consenous they didn't wish harm on their Creators at the start. Some wanted to 'fix themselves' or surrender to protect their Masters during the quarian/quarian conflicts during the Morning War. Cold killing machines do not do that. The quarians panicked, made a rash decision and they got punished for it.

It was annoying me.

Because the organics wouldn't listen, so why waste time on the issue? Organics don't even listen to each other (case in fact Council/Reapers) The geth had their own problems and were being selfish at the time. I certainly wouldn't hurry to go help people who have always shot at me when I went outside when they got attacked by a member of my family. I would basically think "deal with it." That may seem cold, but that's just the way it is. I wouldn't bother helping someone who was always lethally hostile to me in the past and constantly breeched my house border without permission all the time, which is what the geth are obviously doing.

The geth at the time didn't think that way. They tried using words during the Morning War; which resulted in the Quarians trying to kill them all. Why would they think organics would listen this time? Bullets worked with the quarians; it made them leave them alone. Therefore they most likely thought it would cause other organics to leave them alone if they did it enough. And it did. I'm not saying it was a great plan, but it was the only one they really knew. So yup, can acknowledge bad things about the geth.

The geth didn't butcher each other- it was only when the Heretics planned to brainwash all the geth into following the Reapers did they intervene. As long as the geth factions leave each other alone, they are fine with different views. Krogan killed each other for different views, women and for blood lust. Geth also lasted 300 years without a civil war or unrest. Organics...yeah no. So you missed what I was trying to say.

Hey, I can't help it if I'm that pretty. It may seem childish, but maybe toning down the aggro and snark and I wouldn't be so rude.

@ Thread at large, aren't we all having fun?

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

But nobody is doing that but YOU. You are the only one using that concept. People are judging the geth on their actions, not their racial standing.  The Council discriminated against synthetics because, lacking morals or emotions, there is no logical reason why synthetics would ever ackowledge organic law or rights. Or even treat them as equals. It's fear of how they will react to organics. Same as the fear of how the krogan were going rampant cause the Council to throw the first punch in the Krogan Rebellions. Was it wrong to outlaw them? - Hell yes, and I agree to that -  but the fear wasn't unjustified. And it was based on future actions, not race.
The quarians reacted to the geth because the geth weren't given moral or ethical boundries - nothing to make the geth want to acknowledge organics as useful. And self-sufficant, so they didn't need organics at all.
The quarians didn't do this out of a racial prejudice. That's the complete opposate of what happened. They did it out of simple fear.
Is it racist to pick saving your family over the life of a total stranger? No. It's natural. Is it racist to place more value on your family then a being that might go berserk on you any moment? NO.

The Heretics relocated nearly a tenth of the population in months. One tenth, say, every six months. That would be the entire geth population in five years. Vs the 300 years that they did nothing.
Also, do you think moving tightly compactible geth bodies, that can be dissassembled or tightly packed together, are like moving organics at all? Again, no comparison. Also, here's a fact for you - the Sea of Storms is an unknwon location. It's only known by the geth since most star maps are lost, and even then, it's a nebula, meaning you can't find anything unless you know exactally wehre the look. After all, the Alliance and Council never found it in the two years between games. And the geth got their power by using energy that siphoned residual cosmic radiation eminating from the surrounding stars and the nebula itself. They were set for life.

The Council and Quarians did not judge the Geth on their actions.  Their actions were non-violent pre MW.  The Quarians decided to kill them anyways.  Furthermore, if synthetics lack morals it is only because organics refused to teach them.  EDI has morals because Shep and his crew are not a**holes who responded to EDI's questions by trying to kill her like the Quarians did to the Geth.

And you have a tendency to overstate things so like I said, provide links and I will consider it. 

And here is a fact for you.  A**holes who try to kill me are not going to get a planet I kicked them off of because they tried to kill me.  They are the enemy that tried to destroy me so f**k them until they stop being douchebags. 

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Now you are just ranting.
Seriously, the geth in the Heretic Station got power from energy converters that absorbed cosmic radiation. That's how they produced the energy they needed. They DON'T have the same limitations organics do, because unlike us, they can safely work with cosmic radiation. They get their energy directly from space radiation. Can't get a better power sorurce then that. Unless you make a Dyson Sphere.

Where did they get the parts to build this single station?  Where did they get the parts to build the energy converters?  What hapens when parts break down?  Where will they get the materials to fix them?

And did they use cosmic radiation to power the space station, ships or both?  If they used them to power their ships then please provide a link and I will read it.  There is a difference between electricity for example powering a station and fuel powering a car.

And once again, why should the Geth move so the people that tried to kill them can have a planet?  If the Quarians want a planet then go talk to the Council ie their allies not the enemy they tried to exterminate.

This is all in the discription of the station in the game. If you played ME2, you should already know all this.
To start, it was a stripped-down superstructure of the quarians. Completely stripped down and abandoned.
The geth then moved in and renovated the station, turining the empty frame into a massive 11.3 kilometer juggernaught. EDI estimates that it must have taken at least 10 years for the geth to renovate it. It is completely self-sufficant, as according to squad-mate interpertation, the station is completely self-sufficant. It was built to last, and apperantly pre-dates the Heretic Schism. It was seemingly gifted to them as a base of operations after the True Geth severed from them.
And most of the qeustions you are asking are acedemic, given that you aren't bothering to question how the hell the geth expected to maintain a Dyson Bubble without touching any of the quarians old resources. If they can do that, you don't think they can manage the same for this station?
Mordin notes that they are arrays that get power directly from residual radiation in the Sea of Storms nebula, and cosmic radiation in the surroinding area.

The radiation fuels the power plants, which in turn provides fuel for ships. Fuel is created by using energy to create antimater fuel. The geth found a more efficant way to do this using cosmic radiation and residual radiation in the nebula.

And once again, everyone already thinks the same thing of the geth, becasue of how they spat in the Council's face after the Council gave them the benifit of a doubt. Thanks to that, everyone thinks the quarians were right about the geth being hostile. Cause and effect. And the quarians did look for a planet - for 300 years. They found nothing, and anything close, the Council wouldn't let them have.

[nos_astra]

remydat wrote...
No I haven't in any detail.  If you have links that say little energy is required and that the Geth magically have the resources to move millions or billions of Geth en masse to unknown parts of space then let me know.  Let me know too where they will find enough minerals, metals, and the like to maintain this massive fleet.  Does this all run on space magic?

The point is. Geth are synthetics. There are much much less ressources needed to move the geth than to move organics. The quarians have been on the move for 300 years and that's a lot more problematic for them than it would ever be for the geth. That's around 17 million individuals. And they're not exactly welcome in the galaxy.

The point is also not that NO or very little energy is required, I wouldn't know that. It's that it's not as much as you may think. The geth can hibernate, they don't need food, the ship can fly on auto-pilot, there is apparently tech around that allows them to gain energy from cosmic radiation and propulsion in space works as one push and without external influence the geth ship will move forward at the same speed like ... forever. It's not like an airplane.

All we say is ... if the geth are concerned about their survival there would have been options for them to avoid conflict that seem reasonable. Maybe not leaving the galaxy (that hase some long-term benefits, too)... but leaving Rannoch and its surrounding system would have been an option.

If they really wanted to be left alone, they shoul have left. The best chance at being left alone if to go where organics have trouble following.

Finally, why should they move for people that have never set foot on Rannoch?  Why can't those a**holes simple learn to live peacefully with the Geth like their ancestors were doing before they decided to exterminate them?  Why must the Geth segregate themselves just to make the Quarians happy?

While I think of it as a lame contrivances, too, the Rannoch arc is written under the premises that the quarians need Rannoch in order to survive (becaus the Council for some odd reason, maybe speciesism, denied them the few dextro worlds that are available).

It's the same level of cringe-worthy writing that compelled the geth to develop an emotional attachment to their "homeworld".

And those a**holes (who are a people consisting several million of individuals) still suffer for what their ancestors did.
Their ancestors had no reason not to live in peace. The geth were not sentient back then, merely VIs who did their job, were not perceived as a threat and didn't force an entire people to live on ships and (I'm fairly sure that's how it was initially supposed to be before being retconned to explain the one-time-fits-all faceless quarian model) cause them to live in enviro-suits.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 juin 2013 - 08:38 .

[remydat]

Silver,

you missed the point. I asked where they got it from because I know they got it from EXISTING infrastructure. The stuff you can get when you take over Quarian systems. The stuff that does not exist if you go wandering in space where no one has gone previously. The point being it took them 10 years to merely RENOVATE something that was already there and you basically want them to go wander into space and build enough of this stuff from stratch to house 93% of their people. Just so the douchebags that tried to exterminate them can have their home back so they can try and exterminate them again.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But nobody is doing that but YOU. You are the only one using that concept. People are judging the geth on their actions, not their racial standing.  The Council discriminated against synthetics because, lacking morals or emotions, there is no logical reason why synthetics would ever ackowledge organic law or rights. Or even treat them as equals. It's fear of how they will react to organics. Same as the fear of how the krogan were going rampant cause the Council to throw the first punch in the Krogan Rebellions. Was it wrong to outlaw them? - Hell yes, and I agree to that -  but the fear wasn't unjustified. And it was based on future actions, not race.
The quarians reacted to the geth because the geth weren't given moral or ethical boundries - nothing to make the geth want to acknowledge organics as useful. And self-sufficant, so they didn't need organics at all.
The quarians didn't do this out of a racial prejudice. That's the complete opposate of what happened. They did it out of simple fear.
Is it racist to pick saving your family over the life of a total stranger? No. It's natural. Is it racist to place more value on your family then a being that might go berserk on you any moment? NO.

The Heretics relocated nearly a tenth of the population in months. One tenth, say, every six months. That would be the entire geth population in five years. Vs the 300 years that they did nothing.
Also, do you think moving tightly compactible geth bodies, that can be dissassembled or tightly packed together, are like moving organics at all? Again, no comparison. Also, here's a fact for you - the Sea of Storms is an unknwon location. [/b]It's only known by the geth since most star maps are lost, and even then, it's a nebula, meaning you can't find anything unless you know exactally wehre the look. After all, the Alliance and Council never found it in the two years between games. And the geth got their power by using energy that siphoned residual cosmic radiation eminating from the surrounding stars and the nebula itself. They were set for life.

The Council and Quarians did not judge the Geth on their actions.  Their actions were non-violent pre MW.  The Quarians decided to kill them anyways.  Furthermore, if synthetics lack morals it is only because organics refused to teach them.  EDI has morals because Shep and his crew are not a**holes who responded to EDI's questions by trying to kill her like the Quarians did to the Geth.

And you have a tendency to overstate things so like I said, provide links and I will consider it. 

And here is a fact for you.  A**holes who try to kill me are not going to get a planet I kicked them off of because they tried to kill me.  They are the enemy that tried to destroy me so f**k them until they stop being douchebags. 

You do realize that the Council gave them the benifit of a doubt and tried to talk to them first to get their side of things, right?
They were made to not care about anything. They weren't given emotions or morals. No way of considering anyone wroth anything besides logic. And the geth were completely self-sufficant. They didn't need organics for anything, or felt anything to their death or to killing them. They were the epitimy of a loose cannon - an armed gun that could go off. You can't blame someone for not wanting to rsik their family on a coin toss.
Also, organics were not supposed to teact them, because they were not supposed to be intelligent in the first place. The Codex entry "Geth: Technology" states that the geth were spicifically designed to be nothing more then commerical V.I.s with a trainable, animal intelliigence. Thus, they would have no need for morals or ethics becasue they aren't built to think. And that is explisitly untrue, because EDI is a shcakled A.I. who's processing systems are locked by Cerberus restraints. She is locked, and her morals were pre-set, because she only gained the abilaty to self-modify after Joker undid the Shackling.

Also, this is in the damn game. The discription of the Heretic station spicifically lists the location of the station as unknwon because the Nebula obscures it. Anyone that played the game would have read this, so I find it hard to believe you missed it.

And here's a counter-fact. You are a dangerous machine that doesn't have any comprehension of morals or ethics. You don't need them. You don't care about them. And on top of it all, someone gave you the chance to make it right by giving you the benifet of a doubt and state your peace, and you and you alone killed them, proving your attackers right in the eyes of everyone else. You've made everyone else think YOU are an enemy, and believe your enemy, and it's nobody's fault but yours. You made them see you as douchebags. YOU. Their actions didn't make the galaxy see you as douchebages. Your own actions did that. The Council gave you a chance, and you killed it dead. 
You just made your [b]own hell.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

you missed the point. I asked where they got it from because I know they got it from EXISTING infrastructure. The stuff you can get when you take over Quarian systems. The stuff that does not exist if you go wandering in space where no one has gone previously. The point being it took them 10 years to merely RENOVATE something that was already there and you basically want them to go wander into space and build enough of this stuff from stratch to house 93% of their people. Just so the douchebags that tried to exterminate them can have their home back so they can try and exterminate them again.

Wrong. The station discription states it was stripped completely bare when the quarians abandoned it. A dead framework. With nothing on it.
They weren't just renovating it - they were completely restructuring it from the ground up. A much more complicated task. There was literally nothing remaining. The geth rebuilt it and increased the original size exponentally.
So, sorry, but yet again, your example falls flat - the geth made that station in ten years. And 7% of all geth moved into it in months after seperating from the True Geth.

And AGAIN, the geth made the galaxy see themselves as douchebags. And the quarians didn't react out of prejudce at all. They reacted out of fear of a being that had no morals or restrictions. A loaded gun with no safeties. It's not prejudice to save your family over a stranger, especally one that has no (known) empathy to you.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 juin 2013 - 08:44 .

[remydat]

klarabella wrote...

The point is. Geth are synthetics. There are much much less ressources needed to move the geth than to move organics. The quarians have been on the move for 300 years and that's a lot more problematic for them than it would ever be for the geth. That's around 17 million individuals. And they're not exactly welcome in the galaxy.

The point is also not that NO or very little energy is required, I wouldn't know that. It's that it's not as much as you may think. The geth can hibernate, they don't need food, the ship can fly on auto-pilot, there is apparently tech around that allows them to gain energy from cosmic radiation and propulsion in space works as one push and without external influence the geth ship will move forward at the same speed like ... forever. It's not like an airplane.

All we say is ... if the geth are concerned about their survival there would have been options for them to avoid conflict that seem reasonable. Maybe not leaving the galaxy (that hase some long-term benefits, too)... but leaving Rannoch and its surrounding system would have been an option.

If they really wanted to be left alone, they shoul have left. The best chance at being left alone if to go where organics have trouble following.

While I think of it as a lame contrivances, too, the Rannoch arc is written under the premises that the quarians need Rannoch in order to survive (becaus the Council for some odd reason, maybe speciesism, denied them the few dextro worlds that are available).

It's the same level of cringe-worthy writing that compelled the geth to develop an emotional attachment to their "homeworld".

And those a**holes (who are a people consisting several million of individuals) still suffer for what their ancestors did.
Their ancestors had no reason not to live in peace. The geth were not sentient back then, merely VIs who did their job, were not perceived as a threat and didn't force an entire people to live on ships and (I'm fairly sure that's how it was initially supposed to be before being retconned to explain the one-time-fits-all faceless quarian model) cause them to live in enviro-suits.

The point is they still need resources even if it is less than organics.  Silver just pointed out it took then 10 years to RENOVATE a single space station so to pretend they can just wander space and find enough materials to build infrastructure from stratch all while evading the organics that want them dead is wishful thinking.  Why would anyone take the risk to help people that tried to exterminate them.

The best chance of being left alone is by taking over an area of space that already has much of the infrastructure and materials to support them.  The Geth just wiped out billions of Quarians, they have no reason to fear 17 million Quarians in ships.  If we are playing the contrivance game then it is pretty contrived that Xen magically created a weapon that allowed 17 million Quarians to do in broken down ships what billions of Quarians coudln't do in new ships.

And the fact the Council denied the Quarians a new homeworld is not the Geth's problem.  The Council are suppose to be allies.  The Geth are enemies.  If your allies screw you over, the solution is not to expect your enemies to abandon is perfectly defensible part of space just to help you out.

This makes no sense.  The Perseus Veil is perfect for the Geth to defend.  It is relatively isolated, naturally disrupts communications and the ability of organics to see what is behind the Veil and has thousands of years of infrastructure already built that the Geth are familiar with.  It makes no sense to give that all up for people who want them dead and who currently are less than 1% the size they were when you nearly exterminated them. 

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Wrong. The station discription states it was stripped completely bare when the quarians abandoned it. A dead framework. With nothing on it.
They weren't just renovating it - they were completely restructuring it from the ground up. A much more complicated task. There was literally nothing remaining. The geth rebuilt it and increased the original size exponentally.
So, sorry, but yet again, your example falls flat - the geth made that station in ten years. And 7% of all geth moved into it in months after seperating from the True Geth.

And AGAIN, the geth made the galaxy see themselves as douchebags. And the quarians didn't react out of prejudce at all. They reacted out of fear of a being that had no morals or restrictions. A loaded gun with no safeties. It's not prejudice to save your family over a stranger, especally one that has no (known) empathy to you.

Sorry you said renovate not me.  I simply used your words.  And you said it took 10 years to build a single station.  A framework is still a start.  You seem to be changing your tune.  They built something based on something that was already there using resources from mines and the like that were already there.  That is a lot easier than wandering space and building something without even a framework and when you have to find planets with mineable resources and build mines and the like.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

You do realize that the Council gave them the benifit of a doubt and tried to talk to them first to get their side of things, right?
They were made to not care about anything. They weren't given emotions or morals. No way of considering anyone wroth anything besides logic. And the geth were completely self-sufficant. They didn't need organics for anything, or felt anything to their death or to killing them. They were the epitimy of a loose cannon - an armed gun that could go off. You can't blame someone for not wanting to rsik their family on a coin toss.
Also, organics were not supposed to teact them, because they were not supposed to be intelligent in the first place. The Codex entry "Geth: Technology" states that the geth were spicifically designed to be nothing more then commerical V.I.s with a trainable, animal intelliigence. Thus, they would have no need for morals or ethics becasue they aren't built to think. And that is explisitly untrue, because EDI is a shcakled A.I. who's processing systems are locked by Cerberus restraints. She is locked, and her morals were pre-set, because she only gained the abilaty to self-modify after Joker undid the Shackling.

Also, this is in the damn game. The discription of the Heretic station spicifically lists the location of the station as unknwon because the Nebula obscures it. Anyone that played the game would have read this, so I find it hard to believe you missed it.

And here's a counter-fact. You are a dangerous machine that doesn't have any comprehension of morals or ethics. You don't need them. You don't care about them. And on top of it all, someone gave you the chance to make it right by giving you the benifet of a doubt and state your peace, and you and you alone killed them, proving your attackers right in the eyes of everyone else. You've made everyone else think YOU are an enemy, and believe your enemy, and it's nobody's fault but yours. You made them see you as douchebags. YOU. Their actions didn't make the galaxy see you as douchebages. Your own actions did that. The Council gave you a chance, and you killed it dead. 
You just made your own hell.

The council did not give them the benefit of the doubt.  They were just not stupid enough to go attack the Geth who just slaughtered billions of people in less than a year without getting more information on them.

Whether organics were suppose to teach them or not is irrelevant.  That is not their fault.  That was the Quarians choice not the Geth.  The Quarians like Shep and his crew could have taught them morals.  They specifically chose not to.  Why should I hold it against the Geth that their creators were stupid?

Um, you would have a point if the Council decided to rescind their law.  They didn't.  They responded by exterminating harmless AI on the Citadel.  So give me a break.  The only reason the Geth were not killed like those Citadel AI is because they proved they could defend themselves.

[nos_astra]

remydat wrote...
The point is they still need resources even if it is less than organics.  Silver just pointed out it took then 10 years to RENOVATE a single space station so to pretend they can just wander space and find enough materials to build infrastructure from stratch all while evading the organics that want them dead is wishful thinking.  Why would anyone take the risk to help people that tried to exterminate them.

I don't think it's wishful thinking.

As I pointed out what was left oft the quarian civilization piled into spaceships and left ... probably in much less than 10 years. You ignore that.

In ME3 huge fleets just up and move to Earth. You ignore that, too.

And why would the geth take the risk to help the people that tried (and failed) to exterminate them? Maybe because they want peace so bad. Talking to them at any point ... offering them to leave Rannoch in exchange for being left alone. Oh, they couldn, the things the quarians might do.

The best chance of being left alone is by taking over an area of space that already has much of the infrastructure and materials to support them.  The Geth just wiped out billions of Quarians, they have no reason to fear 17 million Quarians in ships.  If we are playing the contrivance game then it is pretty contrived that Xen magically created a weapon that allowed 17 million Quarians to do in broken down ships what billions of Quarians coudln't do in new ships.

So the geth had no reason to fear the quarians.
But they do have now that the ships fall apart and they had 300 years to evolve a lot faster.

Well, done writers.

And the fact the Council denied the Quarians a new homeworld is not the Geth's problem.  The Council are suppose to be allies.  The Geth are enemies.  If your allies screw you over, the solution is not to expect your enemies to abandon is perfectly defensible part of space just to help you out.

In firmly believe that you are not geth. So while the geth couldn't care less, you should care. You should understand that the situation for the quarians is dire. 

This makes no sense.  The Perseus Veil is perfect for the Geth to defend.  It is relatively isolated, naturally disrupts communications and the ability of organics to see what is behind the Veil and has thousands of years of infrastructure already built that the Geth are familiar with.  It makes no sense to give that all up for people who want them dead and who currently are less than 1% the size they were when you nearly exterminated them. 

But the geth wanted to be left alone and live in peace. To stay in the place everyone know where to look for and fight back attacks doesn't strike me as peaceful. It's an occupation.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 juin 2013 - 09:07 .

[silverexile17s]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


No. It's because you keep thinking that hiding what I wrote will somehow make you right. As I stated, it doesn't. Besides, the more insults you throw, the more it makes you look like a troll that can't admit you're wrong.

And AGAIN, those reasons are countered by the fact that the geth blindly, stubbornly and moronicly shot all the Council peace envoys dead, stayed in isolation, and then let themselves take the fall for the Heretics actions without even trying to plead innocence. Those are some pretty bonehead moves, and they themselves engineered the reputation that made the quarians think peace was impossible.
Once again, they are the same, and your prefrence has no justifable point. Just admit - it's personal prefrence, because as stated before, they are basically the two halves of the same coin. I've pointed this out repeatedly, but you keep ignoring this, then throwing out insults as if that will suddenly make you right.

And likewise, you act like there was valid proof that it wasn't going to happen. It was 50/50. There is valid proof to support that the geth have no restraining emotions or morals. Why? Because that's how the quarians made them to be. There is proof that all can become killers. Why? Because the quarians spicifically made them as "tools of labor and war" that could all arm up into the ultimate millita in an instant. Thereis valid proof that the geth would see the quarians as useless and cast them aside. Why? Because the quarians spicifically made them as self-sufficant.
What valid reason is there that an emotionless and moraless machine will listen to the morals and laws of an alien race? What reason do the geth have to listen - to even want to listen - to the laws, morals, or emotional codes of conduct of the quarians or anyone else?
There is literally nothing that would keep the geth from tearing apart the quarians, just for the hell of it even.
Now, as show above, I have shown valid reasons behind the thinking of the quarians, and why they would rather not gamble their entire people on a 50/50 chance of what the geth would or wouldn't acknowledge. Last I checked, people that have any form of emotional attachemnt to their familes - they don't gamble them on a wild coin toss if they can help it.

Also, IDK what a spelling lesson has to do with the arguement right now. Why even bother pointing that out?

After seeing what a fleet of geth did to the Citadel, Feros, Eden Prime, Noveria, Therum, Ilos, and Virmire, you are actually surprised that they consider the geth hostile? Last I checked, the geth never once made any attempt to plead innocence of the crimes the Heretics committed. As far as the quarians know, the geth sided with the Reapers willingly. They weren't even aware that they themselves were the one's that made the geth join the Reapers - they thought the geth already had. Three years ago at Eden Prime.
Also, if the geth were really that willing, why did they force Legion to cut contact with Tali? If the geth supported peace, why did they prevent Legion from making continued efforts to bargen for peace talks?
And the quarians voted on weather or not to go to war. In decisions that affect the entire fleet, quarian law forbids them from doing anything unless all five Admirals agree to it. If they do not all unanimously agree to it, it has to be voted on by the quarian populance. They had a vote. And they decided that war was a less risky outcome then trusting the faction that never once pleaded innocence of the crimes committed by the Heretics in ME1.
So, Nope. Same Level. As I've stated repeatedly, no matter how many times you tell yourself otherwise, you can't hide from the facts - they are different halves of  the same coin.

Then tell people that you want to be left alone. I mean, is that any less simple to accomplish? What is so hard about putting automated signal bouy's that say "keep out. No visitors allowed"? Or making a galaxy-wide boradcast asking to be left in isolation. These are just as easy to accomplish, and can be done without making everyone think you are racists that hate all organics - you know, the way blindly shooting everyone that came near them did? You chastze people for not giving the geth the benifit of a doubt, but look! Here is the Council giving the geth the benifit of a doubt when they have no reason to, and the geth kill them. How is that not an act of wanton stupitidy? You're saying the organics were wrong to give the geth the benefit of a doubt? I thought that was what you wanted?
Oh wait - you won't acknowledge anything that paints the geth in a bad light as their fault in any way. Never mind.<_<

The krogan kept it isolated to Tuchanka, now didn't they? More then the geth did for the Heretics. Also, maybe you missed the Heretic Station mission, where Legion, acting under the directives of the True Geth, either slaughter them in genocide, or brainwash them. THAT's your idea of "peaceful co-exisance?" How is either assimlating other members forcibley into your cultural viewpoint, or killing them wholesale instead, any different then the krogan at all?  You seem to be the one that missed the point.

I think you are speaking to your mirror again. Seriously, what has insults gotten you in this debate except getting them thown back at you? You might get more respectful commenting, if you acted respectful youself at all.

So you know what I'm thinking better than myself? That explains a lot. But no, that was my actual reason. That and your massive text-walls were eating the page and making it load strangely. But I'm glad you know my thought process better than myself.

You started the mud slinging, dude, so don't try and act the innocent debator here. You are also throwing insults at me. So yup, you are using that word of yours again.

Why the hell would the geth even want to communicate with organics? In most cases of 'envoys' and the like you are contacting the other person because you want something; information, weapons, resources. The geth didn't need that. They didn't want it and made it very clear they didn't want 'friendship' with organics. If they are left alone, the geth are fine with organics running around.

The quarians and geth are not two sides of the same coin! That is what I'm arguing. They behaved differently, maybe even similar, but on the whole, different circumstances, so they cannot be held on the same level with their actions. Morning War, Rannoch Arc; Geth and Quarians reacted differently, therefore they cannot be judged the same.

If someone has the high potential to become a cold, efficent killer, you do not provoke them. You don't goad them into attacking you, which is pretty much what the quarians did. The geth could barely think as it is, but as you saw in the Consenous they didn't wish harm on their Creators at the start. Some wanted to 'fix themselves' or surrender to protect their Masters during the quarian/quarian conflicts during the Morning War. Cold killing machines do not do that. The quarians panicked, made a rash decision and they got punished for it.

It was annoying me.

Because the organics wouldn't listen, so why waste time on the issue? Organics don't even listen to each other (case in fact Council/Reapers) The geth had their own problems and were being selfish at the time. I certainly wouldn't hurry to go help people who have always shot at me when I went outside when they got attacked by a member of my family. I would basically think "deal with it." That may seem cold, but that's just the way it is. I wouldn't bother helping someone who was always lethally hostile to me in the past and constantly breeched my house border without permission all the time, which is what the geth are obviously doing.

The geth at the time didn't think that way. They tried using words during the Morning War; which resulted in the Quarians trying to kill them all. Why would they think organics would listen this time? Bullets worked with the quarians; it made them leave them alone. Therefore they most likely thought it would cause other organics to leave them alone if they did it enough. And it did. I'm not saying it was a great plan, but it was the only one they really knew. So yup, can acknowledge bad things about the geth.

The geth didn't butcher each other- it was only when the Heretics planned to brainwash all the geth into following the Reapers did they intervene. As long as the geth factions leave each other alone, they are fine with different views. Krogan killed each other for different views, women and for blood lust. Geth also lasted 300 years without a civil war or unrest. Organics...yeah no. So you missed what I was trying to say.

Hey, I can't help it if I'm that pretty. It may seem childish, but maybe toning down the aggro and snark and I wouldn't be so rude.

@ Thread at large, aren't we all having fun?

Now when did I ever say that?  You said it, I didn't.
But seriously, there are better ways to say "too much work to quote" or "don't feel like it."

Also, no,  I wasn't the one that started that. You did with the"snippets" and snarking off with the attidute. Don't blame me for throwing the mud back at you. Stop slinging it in the first place, and we'll both be happier for it.

That's exactally what the quarians were thinking when they attacked the geth - why would they want anything to do with us, when they can just as easily kill us and take our resources for themselves? They don't gain anything by working with us comparied to just taking it themselves - and we didn't give them any morals or ethics to restrain them from such actions, because they weren't even supposed to be alive to begin with.
See? It all loops back around.
Also, no. If that;s what the Council wanted, they wouldn't have bothered with negotaiting. They would have just invaded the Veil, or supported the quarians in making a legal effort to drive them out. Instead, they gave the geth the benifit of a doubt. And got spit in the face for it. I noitice that you are sceptical of every single organic, yet take the geth at face value for everything.
Last I checked, the geth didn't need to go out of their way to make everyone see them as douchebages when they had a chance to prove they were just misunderstood. How was making themselves look like douchebags better then the alternitive? And would it have been any harder to just put up comm bouys that said "keep out. we wish to be left in peace." Or send a message over the extranet saying they just want solitude? What was so hard about any of that?
Can you at least answer that?

Yes they are! They are two halves of the exact same coin. They did not behaive differently.
Both were mostly isolationsist.
Both governened by group consensis.
Both developed an insular sociaty.
Both were considered outcasts by the galaxy, and largely due to their own actions.
Both felt heavy remorse for what they did to the other.
Both did not trust the other because of each-other's past actions.
Both did not trust their "black sheep" (Legion & Tali) enough to bank their races on their peace ideal
Both were forced into circumstances in which they had to choose either survival, or death.
Both chose survival, and did not do so out of any form of racisim or bigotry.
Both are two sides of the same coin. You can compare them - nither side is more "just" then the other. It all falls to personal prefrence. That's all.

If someone with the high potental to become a cold, efficant killer exists on every single street, block, and house in your civilization, how do you not provoke them? Especally when there is a high chance they will go off themselves anyway? Why not? They became sentiant on their own. They could decide they don't need you anyway.
That was the problem here - the quarians were basically boxed in. They didn't want to flip a coin and bet their entire race on the 50/50 chance that the emotionless, moraless, ethic-lacking geth wouldn't go balistic for one reason or another. It was a 50/50 chance. How safe would you feel betting your families lives on weather a complete stranger, with no set morals or ethics, will see you as worth a damn?
Also, those events are before the Morning War. The timestamp given by the Geth V.I. lables them as one year prior to the Morning War. And in the Morning War, they uncremiously slaughtered billions. Even aliens that had nothing to do with the conflict, like the asari wife of Erinya (an asari you meet on Ilium who hates the geth for killing her bondmate, who was on Rannoch studying quarian music).

Look, let me tell you something.  If you want to say they overreaced, fine. I conceed to that - hell, I admit that even the quarians [/i]admited that they feel they percicuted the geth unfarely, and judged them too quickly based on a "maybe."  Tali even tells you once that the reason the quarians didn't fight the Council to kill the geth, is because they felt so guilty that they felt they no longer deserved Rannoch.   But you still can't say that their fear was wholely unreasonable. And the geth fleets attacking the galaxy made them thing that the geth had fallen past the point of no return - that they couldn't be reasoned with. If the True geth had done something to fix that, it might not have come to war.
You can say they jumped the gun, but at least acknowledge that the quarians did have justifuable reasons for being afraid in the first place.
So, fine, I'll admit it - the quarians jumped the gun with the geth. They had justifiable reasons for being afraid, but they did overreact based on the fear of what might be. I admit that. But I at least want you to understand where the quarians were coming from, and that it wasn't an unreasonable fear.

And again, the Council sending peace envoys seems to indicate the opposate. In fact, the Council only closed their ears after the geth killed those envoys. And how does killing people ruthlessly, rather then just waving them off, solve anything or is productive in any logical way? The geth's actions don't have any logic to them in this regard. It's one thing to turn someone away if they knock on your door, but shooting them dead for it? That's better then just turning them away and politely saying "no thank you"? It doesn't solve anything, and just worsens the problem you already had, and makes you even more widely hated, increasing the probibility that someone is going to retaliate and kill you. What does it solve?

How would you feel if your tools started talking? Or messing with their safety restrictions? You'd be scared because you don't know what the hell they'd want or do. What their motivations are? You think something that is alive is going to want to stay someone's tool for all eternity? No. They'd want more. The geth are self-suffiant. They gain nothing by aiding the quarians. And the mentality of "speak with guns" was what the quarians feared in the fist place, so can you really say they didn't have reason to be afraid of the geth? Following the only thing they knew - warefare and labor - was what the quarians feared would happen, explisitly. The geth didn't know anything else but base responces, so the quarians made assumptions. You can say it was jumping the gun, but you can't say there wasn't justifiable reason to be scared.

But that's my point - synthetics aren't immune to divison and brutal methods against each-other. No more then organics are. Also, the geth are a young race - the krogan weren't like that in their first 300 years of civilization either. Then came the nuclear war.
When the geth come into conflct, they aren't above using the same methods the krogan do - either forcibly destroy the other's ideology and absorb them back into yours, or kill them outright. That's no different then how the modern krogan deal with their problems. The krogan have just had more practice. This is the geth's first experence with division - and they don't act any better or different. The geth are a starting-out culture. They aren't any more or less infalible then the rest of the galaxy.

Why don't you and I [i]both agree to that? Agreed?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 juin 2013 - 09:35 .

[silverexile17s]

Too tired to deal with you, Remy. Come back tomorrow.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

klarabella wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
The Quarians are poor loosers. They should be grateful they still exist as a species after what they did. They have lsot their claim to Rannoch long ago. If the Geth welcome them back then it's another matter entierly.

What they did? They did NOTHING!

They attempted to do.

Unlike the geth WHO DID!

Honestly, your remarks get scarier by the minute. Reminds me strongly of THE WAVE.

Uh, klarabella, you are debating Seival II.