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[KaiserShep]

But it has everything to do with engineering. They engineered an automated system that has no actual failsafe against malfunction, and apparently allows for open wireless access everywhere all the time, and apparently there's no readily accessible power supplies that can simply be disconnected to reduce the spread. So they made it completely self sufficient, and designed it in such a way that basic, hard controls simply do not exist. 

If an AI tried to spread through our network and act maliciously, it would likely die somewhere along the line as hard lines are disconnected, and it finds that it's run out of tech that supports it.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 11 juin 2013 - 10:19 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wrong. The station discription states it was stripped completely bare when the quarians abandoned it. A dead framework. With nothing on it.
They weren't just renovating it - they were completely restructuring it from the ground up. A much more complicated task. There was literally nothing remaining. The geth rebuilt it and increased the original size exponentally.
So, sorry, but yet again, your example falls flat - the geth made that station in ten years. And 7% of all geth moved into it in months after seperating from the True Geth.

And AGAIN, the geth made the galaxy see themselves as douchebags. And the quarians didn't react out of prejudce at all. They reacted out of fear of a being that had no morals or restrictions. A loaded gun with no safeties. It's not prejudice to save your family over a stranger, especally one that has no (known) empathy to you.

Sorry you said renovate not me.  I simply used your words.  And you said it took 10 years to build a single station.  A framework is still a start.  You seem to be changing your tune.  They built something based on something that was already there using resources from mines and the like that were already there.  That is a lot easier than wandering space and building something without even a framework and when you have to find planets with mineable resources and build mines and the like.

And you made the claim that renovate was all they did. It was explisitly not. They rebuilt it from the ground up. You simply twisted my words as usual.
And it took ten years to built, yet took mere months to upload 7% of all geth everywhere to it - which I doubt the original intent was for it. You are the one that is changing you're tune. They built something out of nothing - the quarians completely striped it bare. Nothing but wireframe was left. And the mines were not there - the quarians didn't inhabit the Hadex Nexus. The Hadex Nexus is not geth space, because it wasn't even quarian space. The Hades Nexus is home to human and elcor colonies. So no, the geth did not have a pre-established infrastriucture there - it used to come from the Veil. It does not anymore. They built this in ten years - a station nearly six times larger then a Reaper. And did so outside the Perseus Veil. This indicates that the geth literally could have set up shop anywhere they wanted. And do so without ever drawing attention to themselves. Think about it - for ten years this went on and no one noticed. And look at the True Geth in the Armstrong Cluster. Would the Alliance have found that had they not been on active alert thanks to the Heretics?
That all explisitly states that the geth could have moved out of the Veil to whatever location they wanted and no one would ever have been the wiser. Hell, the Codex entry "Perseus Veil" says that because the Veil obscures sattilite imagry, no one even presently knows if the geth do still live in the Veil - there were even rumors pre-ME1 that the geth might have died out or migrated from the Veil without anyone knowing about it. The galaxy literally had no clue what the state of the geth were, and still don't. But no one wanted to risk finding out, ever since the peace envoys were shot dead.
In short - there was no reason to stay in the Perseus Veil, since they literally could have left any damn time without anyone knowing it, since that's what they were already doing for years before ME1.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

You do realize that the Council gave them the benifit of a doubt and tried to talk to them first to get their side of things, right?
They were made to not care about anything. They weren't given emotions or morals. No way of considering anyone wroth anything besides logic. And the geth were completely self-sufficant. They didn't need organics for anything, or felt anything to their death or to killing them. They were the epitimy of a loose cannon - an armed gun that could go off. You can't blame someone for not wanting to rsik their family on a coin toss.
Also, organics were not supposed to teact them, because they were not supposed to be intelligent in the first place. The Codex entry "Geth: Technology" states that the geth were spicifically designed to be nothing more then commerical V.I.s with a trainable, animal intelliigence. Thus, they would have no need for morals or ethics becasue they aren't built to think. And that is explisitly untrue, because EDI is a shcakled A.I. who's processing systems are locked by Cerberus restraints. She is locked, and her morals were pre-set, because she only gained the abilaty to self-modify after Joker undid the Shackling.

Also, this is in the damn game. The discription of the Heretic station spicifically lists the location of the station as unknwon because the Nebula obscures it. Anyone that played the game would have read this, so I find it hard to believe you missed it.

And here's a counter-fact. You are a dangerous machine that doesn't have any comprehension of morals or ethics. You don't need them. You don't care about them. And on top of it all, someone gave you the chance to make it right by giving you the benifet of a doubt and state your peace, and you and you alone [/b]killed them, proving your attackers right in the eyes of everyone else. You've made everyone else think YOU are an enemy, and believe your enemy, and it's nobody's fault but yours. You made them see you as douchebags. YOU. Their actions didn't make the galaxy see you as douchebages. Your own actions did that. The Council gave you a chance, and you killed it dead. 
You just made your own hell.

The council did not give them the benefit of the doubt.  They were just not stupid enough to go attack the Geth who just slaughtered billions of people in less than a year without getting more information on them.

Whether organics were suppose to teach them or not is irrelevant.  That is not their fault.  That was the Quarians choice not the Geth.  The Quarians like Shep and his crew could have taught them morals.  They specifically chose not to.  Why should I hold it against the Geth that their creators were stupid?

Um, you would have a point if the Council decided to rescind their law.  They didn't.  They responded by exterminating harmless AI on the Citadel.  So give me a break.  The only reason the Geth were not killed like those Citadel AI is because they proved they could defend themselves.

Unarmed peace envoys sent to make contact with them, despite the quarians in front of the Citadel protesting that they march into the Veil and get Rannoch back? That's not what you consider the benifet of a doubt?
Also, you do know that the only reason the ships actually went into the Veil is because the geth didn't respond to any form of hail or communication, right? The geth could have just responded to the communications and refused - the ships would never have entered the Veil at all if they had. Saying "we don't want people in here" yet not answering them and basically forcing them to enter the Veil to talk to you is asinine. If you don't want people to talk to you, you tell them so. The batarians don't shoot without a warrning. Not even the krogan shoot without a warring (well, at least most krogan don't). The geth - nope, you have to come into our borders to know that we don't want you in our borders, and then die for crossing into the border to find this out.
That's absolutly redundant and asinine, and it only worsens the already pesisting problem by making you look like unreasonable douchebages to the entire galaxy. It solves nothing, and only makes the current problems worse, and you don't have anyone to blame for it but yourselves.
Also, if that was the case, the Council would have attacked the geth anyway. They could have used the fact that Rannoch was still legally quarian space as a perfect excuse to invade and kill the geth. Instead, they gave the geth a benifet of a doubt. They got it thrown in their face, and seemingly validated all their anti-synthetic laws.

Yes it is relivent. Completely and utterly. If they aren't alive then what are you supposed to teach? You are ment to program orders into automated tools. You aren't trying to create a living beings, you never were, so there is no reason to teach them about things they were not made to need, or even comprehend, because you din't give them the things to understand this, because it was never your intention in the first place.
It wasn't the quarians or the geth's "choice" to evolve. It simply happened. Nither side intended it. It just.... happened over time. Intent does play a role in this, because if the quarians never intended to create living beings, then it likewise was not their responcibility to teach them, because you can't teach if you didn't indend to be a teacher in the first place. They were not trying to make living beings, so there was no reason to teach something that you never intended to be alive in the first place.
And this all assumes that the geth want to learn and follow everything the quarians told them. What you are advocating is slavery. You are saying that the geth should have submitted to the quarians rather then be indipendent? Because you are basically advocating that it would have been better had the geth been living slaves rather then mindless tools.
How does that work?
What makes you think the geth would have respected laws and morals of others, rather then creating their own? After all, what would make the geth want to learn and comply with the laws of other, when as living beings, they could just invent theor own, as is their right as a living race?
That;s why the quarians DIDN'T want living beings - because no living being would be satisfied following someone else's moral codes as opposed to discovering and creating their own.

This was the year after the Morning War.  As in, after the geth killed the peace envoys and made the Council clamp down on anti-synthetic laws? The geth's actions caused the Concuil to more tightly enforce the laws, since the geth killing the envoys seemed to prove that synthetics weren't intrested in organics in the end, and would sooner kill them rather then co-exist. You [b]did listen to the timestamp on that recording, right? Those A.I.s were killed because of the negitive reputation the geth's own actions gave other synthetics.

[remydat]

KaiserShep wrote...

But it has everything to do with engineering. They engineered an automated system that has no actual failsafe against malfunction, and apparently allows for open wireless access everywhere all the time, and apparently there's no readily accessible power supplies that can simply be disconnected to reduce the spread. So they made it completely self sufficient, and designed it in such a way that basic, hard controls simply do not exist. 

If an AI tried to spread through our network and act maliciously, it would likely die somewhere along the line as hard lines are disconnected, and it finds that it's run out of tech that supports it.

But the point is they are software.  They can be downloaded anywhere provided you have an application that runs the software.  It's pretty hard to restrict software from being downloaded when all it needs is a data storage device.

In any event I was referring to the decision once you are aware of the problem.  You cant go back and create failsafes so the only thing you need to ask yourself is can you stop the software from downloaded itself.  If the answer is no provoking it is stupid.

[remydat]

Silver,

I did not read about this so I was going by the words you said and you said renovate not rebuild. Next time use words you actually mean as I am not psychic. In any event please provide a link as you word cannot be trusted since apparently you dont know the difference between renovate and rebuild and then want to blame me for taking you at your word.

No claim is ever made that these spies were unarmed. Again provide a link and stop making stuff up. And if I knock on the door and no one answers I walk away. I dont invite myself in especially when it is the home of my enemy.

Finally, killing the Citadel AI that have no connection to the Geth because they are synthetic is the definition of racism. You killed them not because of what they did but because of what other synthetics did.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The only thing you can do is fry the hardware. How do you fry the hardware? Well they tried the shoot the robots and that didn't work, and they didn't want to try the surefire method because it would pretty much disrupt their civilization totally... that method? That would be high altitude nuclear electromagnetic pulses. They didn't do that. It's not mentioned in the codex. It's not mentioned in the wiki. I looked.

They only tried the ground method. There were too many. NEMPs would have fried their own stuff as well, but would have saved a lot of lives. It would have set them back about 150 years technologically and there would have been a lot of rebuilding of their power grid and stuff like that on Rannoch, but they would have killed a hell of a lot of Geth with them.

150 years of tech is a small price to pay for saving your race once the war started.

[silverexile17s]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Well, I was trying to be blunt about it, not vague which irritates some people.

I like my sling. I shall use it to knock down Goliath.

But the geth were in the care of the quarians, the geth were willing to surrender themselves to other quarians to save Creators. They didn't understand what was happening; the quarians were fully aware they were trying to kill  the geth, which is the difference.

The Council already had their stance clear by they time they tried 'peace' tactics; A.I was illegal. Why would you want to talk to someone when your very existance violates their laws? Why would you invite someone into your home, pass your front door when you know your existance is against their law? You wouldn't. The geth erred on the side of caution as the Quarians had already massively proved that organics didn't like geth.

Quarians attacked first. That's what started it all. Therefore, I don't place them on the same level. Also they had circumstances that differ from each other which caused them to react in different manners. That's why I don't place them on the same coin.

I don't give any credence to the "Quarians need Rannoch to survive" argument, so lets leave that be.

The trust issue; Quarians fault. They attacked first with no valid proof but assumptions and paranoia. Geth finally retaliated. Even 300 years later, Quarians still plot on killing/enslaving the geth. The geth at least don't actively plan the quarians murders.

Legion says in ME3 the geth believed him when he shared his memories; they also stop firing while Shepard is on Rannoch after killing the Reaper- The Quarians must be talked down. Not the geth, who stop at Legion. Even Tali on her own cannot talk down the other Admirals. The geth trust Legion. Tali must have Shepard's and Koris's backing for the other Admirals to even care what she says.

By not attacking them? It's fairly simple. Don't provoke the lethal person down the road. It would be better to at least prove you aren't a threat, that you will not harm them or try to hurt them simply for being what they are. So how about we just agree- we both have polar opinions in this regard and we aren't going to change our minds soon.

Geth couldn't tell the difference between man, women or alien species. To them, organics proved themselves hostile since their minds were so immature and young. And, ultimately, they let the quarians leave. Yes I know it was because they couldn't understand the consequences of killing a whole species, yet they let the quarians leave. The quarians would not have been so merciful.

As I said above, the Council had A.I as illegal- the geth obviously didn't think the Council wanted to talk with them in good faith. So they barred their doors. Understandable.

Yes I would be scared- but I wouldn't hurl it in a fire. I would explain why messing around with that was a bad idea. That's the difference between you and I; I would take a chance with them, you wouldn't. As you said, 50/50. We are just on a different 50 than the other.

Shockingly enough, yes I can. Though synthetics just take longer for it as they aren't prones to fits of passion as organics are.

A little tact never hurt anyone, right? You can say that you don't want to sift through a wall of text in ways that aren't going to ****** the other person off, because then it just becomes a grudge match. Trust me - I've been there (although you probably figured that much out already).

I'm not against a sling. I'd just rather not have it be mud-slinging.

But they weren't intended to be living beings in the first place. How would you feel if you're tools, appliances (whatever you equate the geth to) were watching your actions without you knowing it? If you do something bad and don't know they are watching, are you responcible for teaching them that, or is it an accident because you didn't know you were being watched.
There's a difference between something mimicing you, and consencely teaching them. The latter is from an intent to make the person share your belifes and way of life. That explisitly was not what the quarians wanted. They wanted simple tools that wouldn't have the same weaknesses that organics would. A cheep labor force that could work 24/7 and be self-sufficant on it's own, so no riots and no rebellons. It's basically how modern labor here on Earth is being replace by automated machines that do all the menial, laborus, and dangerous work instead of risking humans. The geth weren't ment to be people - they were ment to be automated/remote-controled soldiers, workers, construction units, seed-planters, crop-harvesters, hazmat units, automated surgions, and crash-test units. All the things that living beings would never subject themselves to. And at a simple call, they could all become the best fighting millita in existance. Just mindless stand-in's. That's all the geth were created to be. They weren't in the "care" of the quarians they way offspring would be. It was more like a craftsmen and his tools
So naturally, it was a shock when they started asking questions.
The quarians made the geth to be completely self-sufficant. They didn't need the quarians for anything, but the quarians needed them for everything. Using what were, basically, crash-test dummys for everything dangerous is fine. But the idea that they might be forcing living beings into doing this..... well, if that was true, then the geth would not be satisfied with being a labor force. And there was nothing the geth needed from the quarians that they couldn't make or take themselves. In fact, without the geth, the quarians were the ones that were screwed, because they had become reliant on the geth for nearly everything. Yet the geth had no such reliance on the quarians. This became a fear that, having not been given emotions, morals, or ethics (what would automated "stand-ins" need with those?), the geth would see no reason to keep the quarians around, and take their resources for themselves. The quarians would be cast aside, if not killed outright.
Now, granted, they didn't know that this was the enivitable outcome, but they decided they would rather not bet their entire race on the answer. Was it jumping the gun? Hell yes. Was the fear that caused it unreasonable or unsjutified? No.

Actually, this isn't ture. According to the Codex, the anti-synthetic laws were not as strict as they are now until after the Morning War. If anything, it seems that the geth killing the peace envoys was the spark that triggered a more through systemic repressal of A.I.s then before. And likewise, why would the organics even try to talk then? Yet they did. They tried to talk with the geth. It's stated that the reason the A.I, laws are so harsh are because no one wants a repeat of the geth. The geth are the example brought up every time this rule is disscussed. While the rule did exist back then, it was not enforced so harshly until after the geth's arisal to sentiance.
Also, legally, Rannoch is not their home - it's technically stolen property. By law, as members of the Citadel Races, the Council would have had full legal athourity to march into the Veil and kill the geth. They didn't. Instead they sent peace envoys and tried to make contact with them. But the geth never responded to hails, and when ships decided to go in and talk face to face, they were shot dead. In fact, the only reason the ships went into the Veil was because the geth didn't answer hails. Had the geth answered hails, the ships wouldn't even have gone into the Veil to begin with.
Was answering hails with a simple "no, thank you" and turn down the organics on at least semi-amicable terms really that hard or horrible to do? Or sending a wide-band signal over the extranet asking for solitude so that teh ships would know to not come past the border in the frist place? Especally when the only reason they entered your space is because you weren't answering said hails? After all, the Council respects the batarian's wishes and don't cross into their space when warned off. I don't see why the geth couldn't have done the same.

But can you look at the unessessary slaughter the geth caused in the Morning War, and honestly say that the geth weren't guilty of overreacting too? They were pretty damn overzelous in their retaliation - they could have psuhed the quarians back without needing to be so ruthless and drive them completely out of the Veil. Prove they could fight back and make the quarians leave them alone - that's one thing. Driving them to near-extinction is another.
So I'm sorry, but the geth are just as guilty of a gross overreaction as the quarians were. Look at the track record of both.
Both were mostly isolationsist.
Both governened by group consensis.
Both have overreacted in life or death situations.
Both developed an insular sociaty.
Both were considered outcasts by the galaxy, and largely due to their own actions.
Both felt heavy remorse for what they did to the other.
Both did not trust the other because of each-other's past actions.
Both did not trust their "black sheep" (Legion & Tali) enough to bank their races on their peace ideal
Both were forced into circumstances in which they had to choose either survival, or death.
Both chose survival, and did not do so out of any form of racisim or bigotry.

And look at their chart of actions in their lifetimes.
Quarians make assumptions on geth nature. Geth go over the top in fighting back.
Quarians spend 300 years running from the problem. Geth spend 300 years ignoring the problem.
Geth kill anyone that tries to talk with them. Quarians live on scraps of everyone else.
Rouge quarian admiral experiments with geth test subjects. Rouge geth faction attacks the galaxy with Reaper.
Quarians panic from Reaper invasion, try to get Rannoch. Geth panic from quarian invasion, side with Reapers.
How are they different? The only thing different about them is their race. The've both taken similar actions, and have a similar cultural structure. And when quarians jumped to conclusions, the geth evened out the scale by acting overzelous. The actions they took were equally fultable. The quarians started the war. The geth were responcible for the death tool. One side made a conclusion. The other was unessessarily harsh. It all evens out.

Codex Entry: ME3: Planets and Locations: Rannoch.
The planet Rannoch, an arid planet orbiting an older star in the Tikkun system, is the former quarian homeworld. Almost three hundred years ago, the quarians were driven from Rannoch by the geth,
synthetic servants who gained sapience and rebelled against their
creators. Although Rannoch is now largely uninhabited, the geth have
acted as caretakers, working to repair the planet's ecology, restore
ancient structures, and cultivate some farmland.
Rannoch has no insect life. As a result, its pollinating plants
evolved to rely on animals for propagation. This symbiosis between flora
and fauna is responsible for the quarians' weakened immune systems,
which made colonization of other planets extremely difficult after their
exile from Rannoch. For many quarians, reclaiming their homeworld from
the geth is a matter of both cultural and physiological necessity.
The second paragraph, underlined and bolded, are the improtant parts in this. "Quarians need Rannoch to survive" is completely cannon - as cannon as the Morning War itself. Add to this that the Council didn't let them have any other worlds, not even ones they themselves found, and it makes it pretty clear that the quarians are a doomed race without Rannoch. hell, this is the only reason why they attack the geth at all - because they are a doomed race without a world. And only one world can still sustain them - their homeworld, with it's resoruces untouched by the geth, and the geth's defenses becoming the perfect fortress for their people. Literally their last hope.

But can you say that the Heretic's actions gave anyone in the galaxy any reason to trust the geth? And you yourself said that the geth "following base nature" was inevitable, and the quarians believed that too - it's the reason why they attacked in the Morning War. Because they thought the geth wouldn't move past their emotonal limitations, and would just cast them aside and take their resources.
And again, that is explisitly not what the quarians are planning. They just want Rannoch back period. They don't want to fight anyone - the geth are just in the way. And remember, at this point, the quarians think the geth are allies of the Reapers. They think the geth already tried to commit genocide against the entire galaxy at the Battle of the Citadel.  How is anyone supposed to even consider the geth innocent when they say nothing and let themselves take the fall for all the Heretics did? Wouldn't Koris, Tali and Legion's peace arguement been more valid, had the quarians seen that more then just one geth was behind the proposal? That the geth that attacked the Citadel aren't the same ones behind the Veil, and that they don't want to fight either? How can you make any move to assume innocence when the other never even makes the plea for innocence in the first place? What Shepard knows is not known to the rest of the galaxy. Hell, it isn't until the end of the Rannoch War that the rest of the galaxy learns that there was such a thing as a Heretic Split.
As I said before - the failure to create peace falls on both their shoulders. The geth weren't any more supportive of the idea then the quarians were. Nither side did anything to promote it. Otherwise, Legion wouldn't have been withdrawn by the geth and never allowed to resiablish contact with Tali.

After watching the geth attack the Citadel, Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, and Therum, there isn't a soul out there that wouldn't need to be talked down from killing a geth. Hell, the quarians weren't even aware that they were the reason the geth sided with the Reapers. As far as the quarians knew, the geth were Reaper allies for three years. The only thing that states otherwise is one single geth unit. You keep ignoring the fact that no one knew there was such a thing as "geth Heretics." No one at all knew this.
Also, if someone out of the blue said "break off your attack" against the Reapers, and didn't give a reason why, would you follow that order? Would't the Reapers actions speak all the evidence you need to consider sparing them insanity? As far as the quarians know, the geth share the Reapers goals. The reason they need to be talked to is because you need to tell them these things, because they aren't aware of them. Also, according to the battle transcript in the Codex (The Battle for Rannoch), the quarians are the ones that break off first according to the transcript. It states the geth broke off after the quarians did. After all, name a singe action the geth did to show the galaxy they wanted to sit down and talk peacefully. Because thus far, all the galaxy has seen are Heretics, and the Ture geth never once made any effort to let people know the Heretics were seperet entities from them.

But again, you ignore the fact that these people are everywhere. In your house, on every street, in every shop, in every building. There is nowhere you can go where they are not. You have no escape from them - they are everywere. And they have assumedly no qualms about attacking you. They weren't given your morals or ethics - you're laws don't apply to them. They don't have to respect or acknowledge you if they don't want to. And they have no reason to want to. They have no reason to care about you at all, and may just as easily cast you aside for the simple reason that they can - you don't have or need to be a threat to them. They could just decide to cast you away for "just because." They could decide they don't need you, since they don't - they are self-sufficant. They don't require you, and can get farther without you.
The point is that - do you feel safe risking your loved ones on a gamble like that? Just answer that much. In an unavoidable situation like this, who are you going to default to?

And likewise, if that's how you see the geth, then how do you say that the quarians didn't have anything to be worried about? Also, you do realize that you can't say that for sure - remember, the quarians first impulse was not to kill the geth. Instead, they ignored the problem hoping it was a glicth. Then they tied reprogramming - explisitly so they would not have to destroy them. So yes, they would have spared them in that sense, since they didn't want the geth destroyed until they became a potental safety hazard to every single quarian in existance. That was when the quarians decided that protecting the people and families was more importnat then preserving their tools.
And as shown in the end of the Rannoch War, the quarians are much more accepting.
In fact, go the ME Wiki if you want. It states that the quarians are actually the race most accepting of A.I.s then any others, given how quickly they accept the geth at the end of the Rannoch War.

But those laws were not that strict until after the geth's actions. The geth's own "barring of doors" is what led to the Council increasing policies, not the other way around. You've got it reversed.
The geth's own gunpoint-held policy is what made the Council tighten it's grip on anti-synthetic laws. So, how is that understandible, when simply responding to hails and saying "no thanks, we don't want any visitors" of putting out a public boradcast saying "we just want to be left alone. No visitors please" would have worked just as well and bettered public opinion of synthetics by showing that they could be talked to and had simple wants and desires like any other race did? How did alienating them all with wonton death to the envoys work better then trying to show them that they were reasonable and docile?

But surely you could at least understand why others would?  Even Legion himself says that he understands and accepts the quarians actions as "a reflex of the flesh. A natural responce."
I'm asking who you would save - a being that might be sentiant, but has no reason to respect your morals or ethics? Or your family?  Is it really that easy to chance all your loved ones on a coin toss that can go either way? And surely you can at least understand why the quarians wouldn't want to risk all they know and love on a fleeting maybe.

Maybe, but they are still a young race finding their way - the korgan have the mindset of a starting culture too. It it that surprising that a starting-out culture wouldn't approch things any different then a primitive one? They still are quite similar to organics in the regard that they deal with things in harsh manners when they are just starting out. They aren't any more innocent of crime or mistake or overzelousness then the quarians, or anyone else is for that matter. Everyone screws up. None of them are worth less for it. The geth aren't worth more then the quarians or any other race - same as how no individual race is worth more then them. If you like a spicific race, it's personal prefrence - because none of these races is "superior" to the other.

[remydat]

Which goes back to they were stupid. Although not sure an EMP fries software. Even if it did all the Geth would have to do is upload their programs to the extranet. An EMP has a short range. The extranet is spread across the whole galaxy. Just like I can access my save games for Mass Effect via the cloud anywhere in the world.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

I did not read about this so I was going by the words you said and you said renovate not rebuild. Next time use words you actually mean as I am not psychic. In any event please provide a link as you word cannot be trusted since apparently you dont know the difference between renovate and rebuild and then want to blame me for taking you at your word.

No claim is ever made that these spies were unarmed. Again provide a link and stop making stuff up. And if I knock on the door and no one answers I walk away. I dont invite myself in especially when it is the home of my enemy.

Finally, killing the Citadel AI that have no connection to the Geth because they are synthetic is the definition of racism. You killed them not because of what they did but because of what other synthetics did.

I don't see how you couldn't - it's the first thing you see when you select the Heretic Station on the ME2 Galaxy Map.
And now you know how the rest of the galaxy felt with the geth! Want someone to judge you accurately, give all the information. You just acted exactaly how the rest of the galaxy did with the geth.
See how easy it is to cause a fight because one side (geth) didn't share all the info? Remember this, because every time you chastize the organics, remember that you acted to me the same way they aced to them:innocent:

Back to the topic, in Mass Effect: Revelation, it is stated that the Council tried to hail the geth and get into contact with them. Only when the geth failed to respond did the Council send in peace envoys to sepak with them. If the geth had responded to the many, many hails with a "no, thank you," then ships would never have been sent into the Veil in the frist place. The book esplisitly states that these were diplomats, not spies. And they delegations that went to meet the yagh weren't armed. If they didn't take weapons with them to speak to the yagh, why would they do so for the geth? Besides, the geth have master scanning and radar. There is no way they could not have knwon that the ships were not spies. Whcih accroding to the Citadel databanks in ME: Revelations shows, they were not spies. The Council sent them out as diplomats. Their own records say so.
Also, you do realize that "knock on the door" was all they did, right? First they tried calling them. Then they knocked on the door. They never had the chance to go in, becasue that's where they were shot dead. You're example is once again proven false.

Also, no. That event was timestamped the year after the war. After the geth's actions made them clamp down on synthetics harder then ever. They killed them because the geth seemingly proved the quarians assertations about "dangerous synthetics" as completely valid. It was not racisim or prejudice, when they seemingly cast the first stone. Which, again, the geth didn't bother fixing.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Which goes back to they were stupid. Although not sure an EMP fries software. Even if it did all the Geth would have to do is upload their programs to the extranet. An EMP has a short range. The extranet is spread across the whole galaxy. Just like I can access my save games for Mass Effect via the cloud anywhere in the world.

Wrong. It goes back to them both havong flaws.
And via that same system, couldn't the geth have just released a publc message saying "let us be in peace" instead of shooting up anyone that knocked at the door. Also, the salarians opened the Korgan Rebellions by flooding their systems with viruses over the extranet, cauing several of theri anti-matter refireries to self-detonate. And as Xen's virus showed, if you clog their bandwith with junk data, their programs transfer slowly, meaning you can destroy them before they can even blink becasue thier reaction speed is down, and their extranet pathways are completely blocked. They die. No escape. Game over. Just like hitting the system router for a town can corrupt your cloud files before they even transfer off-site.

[silverexile17s]

Solmanian wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

Look silver, I'm about to go to bed, so I don't have time to respond to every point in your wall of text. I'll just say that I have read it all, and atleast 50% is your personel "headcannon" and not actual cannon. The quarian attack was in response for the geth attack on the citadel? False. The quarians been planning that war for 300 years. They erased the part of their history that protrayed the founders of the flotilla (the top political and military echelon during the so called "morning war") as mass murderers who performed genocide and murdered their own people, and whose actions doomed their species. Talli is a nice charecter with an interesting personality; but every time you talk to her about the conflict with the geth, you can plainly hear the indoctrination of the flotila, that she simply parroting the same senseless statement that were drilled into her head at childhood.

No, it isn't. You have misunderstood half of it.

First point - Wrong. 
According to the Codex, and the in-game information, the quarians have been aimlessly drifting for 300 years, spending all that time looking for another world. Ekuna is one example - the quarians discovered it, and the Council forced them off the planet. Why bother looking for a new world at all if "you're planning to take the old one back the entire time?" Hell, in ME2, Gerrel says that the quarians only just now started debating on war.  Gerrel himself says this, as does the Codex which states that the entirety of the past 300 years have been spent on finding a new world.

Second point - Wrong.
The quarians kept historical records of the war. It's even stated in the Codex Entry "Quarians: Religion" that the quarians blaime their own carelesness for the War, in that they let the geth develop to far and didn't notice. The quarians accept their mistakes and aren't afraid to admit they made them. Contrary to what you might have been spoon-fed, they are not spiteful or crafty. They are just vagabonds who are tormented by self-regret. They wouldn't be afraid to admit they were wrong - as shown when they stand down at the end of the Rannoch War. Remember?

And last I checked, the geth taking the Council's "benifet of a doubt" peace envoys and killing them made the quarians look pretty damn accurate in their beliefs. After all, if you watched people give someone the benifit of a doubt, only to see them shot dead on arrival without even a warnning, what are you going to think. It wasn't any "indoctrination" - It was the geth killing the Council's envoys, and later on watching them burn half the galaxy, that made Tali think that way. Can you say anyone that was involved in Eden Prime (Ashley Williams) , Feros, or the Battle of the Citadel isn't justified in hating geth?

I think you are the one that missunderstood my post.

To your first point: In ME2 you encounter the flotila and talk with it's people. They tell you that the quarians are split between two main factions:

1. The ones that believe the quarians should start colonising new worlds, because the flotila heavily restricts the development of their species (birth control, constant scarcity of resources). In a nutshell: they think the quarians should move on.

2. The ones that believe the quarians should retake the homeworld (or die trying), and that establishing colonies is admitting surrender (in a war they lost three centuries ago).

We're told that the colony was a way to appease the first factioni, but from talking with the admirals we see the "hawkes" are dominant. There's no argument on wether the geth should be destroyed, only wether the quarians are capable of accomplishing that goal.
Drifting aimlessly for 300 years? You know how much you can accomplish in three centures? In less than a century we turned into a space faring species with thousands of satelites in orbit. The quarians could've easily colonised numerous planet and rebuild their civilization; heck they could terraform planets in that time span. Why didn't they? Because the quarian laedership Modus operandi was working under the assumption the the destruction of the geth and reclaimation of the homeworld are just around the corner, and they should be in a "holding pattern" until that happens.
"Gerrel himself says this, as does the Codex which states that the entirety of the past 300 years have been spent on finding a new world."
Space is big, with a virtually infinite number of planets. The asari, batarians, humans, turians, salarians, elcor, hanar and volus have established thousands of colonies. The quarians had three centuries and tens of thousands of ship. They didn't find a single world that both fits and isn't in citadel space? I say they just weren't really looking. Can't remember where (probably in the books) but the "actively seeking out a new world" notion, is a fairly recent thing. I assume the only "searching" they did until then was wating for "a world that is just perfect" to just fall into their lasp.

To your second point:
That is exactly what I'm saying: the quarians are unrepentent. They think their only mistake was a lack of hindsight; that their mistake was allowing the geth to evolve, and afer that in failing to destroy them in a timely fashion. I don't think we encounter a single quarian in the MEverse, that admits that trying to commit a genocide against the geth was wrong, that there it is morally reprehensible to wipe out a sentient species. That is the main isssue that I (and the majority of species in the MEverse) have with the quarians. They are the direct descendant of genocidal ****s, and don't deserve credit for being unsuccessful genocidal ****s. When superman stops lex lothur from taking over the world, does Lex lothur gets moral credit for failing?

Again, dead wrong.

1. This diffinitively proves that the quarians would be doomed if the fleet engaged the Reapers as is, now doesn't it?

2. What proof is there that the True Geth are any more firendly? Because if the do exist., that would basically mean they let the Heretics reap bloddy murder and death and didn't think twice about it. Does someone with that ammount of indifference to your life sound like a group you want to enturst your entire race to? Sorry, but given that circumstance, you can't say Gerrel is unjustifiued in being sceptical about Shepard's claims of the True Geth. Not one bit.


But once again, according to quarian law, the "hawkes" get their wings clipped unless they have majority backing. Didn't you remember Gerrel saying that "we almost had the votes. We just neet to give people hope" - now tell me, if you were right, why was Gerrel having a vote among the entire quarian population? Sorry, you're proven wrong. The quarians just wan't Rannoch back. The geth are basically an afterthought compared to that.

Same amount the geth did? Whcih was nothing? Also, why don't you look at Ekuna? The quarians found that world, and the Council forced them off at gunpoint. And again, you miss the fact that Rannoch's insect-free ecology is vital to the quarians. They can't adapt, or even survive outside their suits without it. Read the Codex yourself - the quarians searched for 300 years to find a world. They found nothing they could keep. Ekuna was wrenched from them by the Council, and Gei Hennom was too close to geth space - they shot down the scout ship. The Council stymed them at every turn, and terminus pirates made the Terminus Systems to dangerous to colonize because unlike the geth, the quarian's ramshackle ships were vunerable. When you spend every day wrooing about weather of not your home is going to cave in on you, chances are you are not going to make any major advancement anytime soon.
I mean, what the hell are you doing comparing humans to the quarians, when humans have a larger population, steady resoruces, and stable & secure homeworlds? Have all that, and you have a civilization. Lack all that, and you're lucky to live day to day as traveling pesents, let alone advance. The quarians have a small 17 million - meaning only enough for one planet. They're weak immune systems mean that if they find a world, they would, accroding to Tali, need at least 600 years of genetic adaptation to be able to survive on said world. That is supposed to be easy, when you can't even survive without a mask? They need a single, safe world to gradually acclimitoze to over centuries, and when no one lets you stay in a system more then a month at a time, that becomes hard. In the Terminius with all it's pirates, that's impossible, and in Council space, they aren't allowed. Rannoch's air is breathable to them. It would still take at least 60 years to readapt to Rannoch completely, but that's better then 600 years and the many, many deaths of those that couldn't survibve the process. Everyone wouod at least be able to survive reaclimitizing to Rannoch. Not everyone would to an alien world.
How on Earth did you even make that comparison between the two races?

Also, maybe you missed the part where it says that only 1% of the galaxy is exlpored, and that ever since the Rachni incident, exploring more of it is explisitly forbiddion without Council suppoort. Which, you know, the quarians are forbiddion form getting? So how the hell are they supposed to chart new worlds when the Council has explisitly forbode them that right? Sorry, but again, it';s the Council's fault the quarians never got a new world, not the quarians. They lived day to day - whatever time wasn't spent looking for a world was spent trying to survive.


To the second point:
No. No they aren't. The complete opposate. They feel that they got what they deserved.
On the Alerei, dirung your second conversation with Tali in front of the wall console, select the options "That's a bad idea" then "Then take it back." Shepard will ask Tali why the quarians haven't tired to retake Rannoch already. She will say that it's because the quarians feel they don't deserve it anymore. That they jumped the gun in assuming the geth would be hostile. They are completely repentant. They are anything But the way you accused them of being.
And again, they didn't have anything to do with that - the geth's evolution was a result of chance. A random occourance.
And what? Hello? Zal'Koris? Tali'Zorah? Tali's admission that the entire quarian race feels they made a mistake?
And I remind you that no one in the galaxy ever meet a single geth that expressed regret or repentance for the Battle of the Citadel Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Ilos, Virmire, or Therum? Legion was the sole exception to that. So it all balances out, remember?
As far as the entire galaxy knows, the race guilty of this is the geth. And the quarians reaced that way against beings that weren't given the emotions or morals to have respect for organics at all. They made an assumption on the geth's nature based on the limitations the geth were hardwired with. Is that really so unnatural a thing? Making a conclusion based on the hardwired limitations you gave something?
And the geth likewise derserve credit for being sucessful genocidal ****s? They are just as at fault. You say the quarians overreaced on an assumpotion. The geth overeacted in fighting. The geth's faluty action is equal to the quarians. They are on the same level. End of stroy.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 juin 2013 - 04:11 .

[xeNNN]

the only things for me to say is either.


"home is where you make it"

or

they can do what the hell they want.

[remydat]

Silver,

I dont read every entry when I have played the game for 500 hours. The last time I clicked on the heretic station and actually read what it said was my first or second playthrough years ago. And you and I are not killing each other so there is no comparison. When I try to kill you then you can compare.

And once again, if I knock on a door and no one answers I dont go in uninvited. Its called breaking and entering if I do. If the Geth did not answer then the solution is to leave PERIOD. The book states what the organics claimed ie they are diplomats. Organics lie all the time. Show me a link where a Geth admits they were diplomats. Just one.

It is called racism silver. If a black man does something to you and you decide to kill all black men because they are also black, thats racism. Perhaps you should consult a dictionary for a definition.  Those citadel AI were victims of racism.

And yes the Geth could have released a message. However they are not obligated to be nice to racists. I dont go around trying to appease racists. You seem to ignore the point. The geth have done stupid and bad things. The quarians and organics started it. I repeat the organics started it. When they admit they were wrong and that the Geth have a right to exist then come talk to me.

Modifié par remydat, 12 juin 2013 - 01:41 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

I dont read every entry when I have played the game for 500 hours. The last time I clicked on the heretic station and actually read what it said was my first or second playthrough years ago. And you and I are not killing each other so there is no comparison. When I try to kill you then you can compare.

And once again, if I knock on a door and no one answers I dont go in uninvited. Its called breaking and entering if I do. If the Geth did not answer then the solution is to leave PERIOD. The book states what the organics claimed ie they are diplomats. Organics lie all the time. Show me a link where a Geth admits they were diplomats. Just one.

It is called racism silver. If a black man does something to you and you decide to kill all black men because they are also black, thats racism. Perhaps you should consult a dictionary for a definition.  Those citadel AI were victims of racism.

And yes the Geth could have released a message. However they are not obligated to be nice to racists. I dont go around trying to appease racists. You seem to ignore the point. The geth have done stupid and bad things. The quarians and organics started it. I repeat the organics started it. When they admit they were wrong and that the Geth have a right to exist then come talk to me.

Well, then google it if you don't have the time to replay the game. I'm sure the ME wiki has a copy of the transcript. Point is, you see that there is information you've missed, or don't have. Indicitive of the fact that alot of what you accused of being "headcannon" might not have been so after all.
And yes I can compare it. I didn't provide all the information, so you made an incorrect assumption. Same as the geth not providing information to the galaxy. And FYI, the Council didn't get involved in the feud with the quarians and geth. The geth started a completely seperate feud with the Council by killing their envoys.
So, sorry, but again, you've used an incorrect interpertation.

And once again, the envoys didn't enter the door. They never got past knocking. So stop saying they "entered uninvited" because they never even got that far to begin with. They did not enter the Tikkun system. They neared the geth systems. They would have actually had to have used the Relay to Haestrom to have been "entering." They never got that far.
Plus, the only reason they knocked on the door at all is because the geth didn't answer the phone. Had the geth answered the phone and said "no, thank you," the ships would never have come in the first place. Once again, it falls to a failure of communication caused by lack of effort on the geth's part. And again, the Council wanted to see if the geth were as hostile as the quarians said they were. The geth seemingly proved them right by killing the envoys. You keep failing to provide one single reason why answering the communications - before any ships were ever sent - would have been bad. A simple "please leave us be" was so hard? It would have at least left things semi-amicable. Also, this is in the Council's own diplimatic records. That's about as accurate as you can get.

Here is the transcript from the book "Mass Effect: Revelations", Page 116 - 118 (so you can pick up the book yourself and see it's not a fabrication)
In the aftermath of the war, the geth became a completely isolationist society. Cutting off all contact with the organic species of the galaxy, they expanded their territory into the unexplored reaches behind a vast nebulae cloud known as the Perseus Veil. Every attempt to open diplomatic channels with them failed: emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were attacked and destroyed the moment they entered geth space.

Fleets from every species in Citadel space massed on the borders of the Veil as the Council prepared for a massive geth invasion. But the expected attack never came. Gradually the fleets were scaled back, until now, several centuries after the quarians were driven out, only a few patrols remained to monitor the region for signs of geth aggression.

However, the lesson of the quarians had not been forgotten. They had lost everything to the synthetic creatures they created... and on top of this, the geth were still less advanced than a true AI.

Note the bolded and underlined. This is taken directly from the Embasy databases of the Citadel. You know,  the people that sent the ships out in the first place? The private records that can only be accessed via the embasys? Doesn't get more accurate then that.
And they massed fleets on the borders of geth space in responce to having their emissary vessels destroyed. And only sent these vessels out after the geth refused to acknowledge hails.
Also, note the term "unexplored reaches." Meaning they did not just stay behind the Veil. They expanded. They apperantly found new systems. So why couldn't they have just pulled back into those instead of basing everything from Rannoch?

So, NO, it is not racisim remy. Racisim had absolutly nothing to do with the galaxy's perception of the geth. The geth's actions are what garnered their negitive reputation, not their standing as synthetics. You [/b]are the only one bringing racisim into this when no one else has. You are seeing shadows were none exist. And you keep bringing African-Americans into this? Why? What does that have to do in a debate about a race's actions? This isn't, nor was it ever a debate of racisim, because it's not the cause of the conflict. It's the actions the races took, not their racial standing. That had nothing to do with it. Period.
Also, the timestamp states that the A.I. died in the year after the Morning War. Meaning it was the geth's own harsh actions that tightened the anti-synthetic policy, not the other way around. You've got it backwards again. The A.I.s were the victum of a fear that their own counterparts created with their brash actions.

But the Council was the one that gave them the benifit of a doubt, even when the quarians were demanding otherwise. They were given the benifet of a doubt from a group that wasn't involved in the Morning War. And prejudice was never part of any of it. The Council extended an offer of open peace. The reason anti-synthetic laws tightened so harshly afterward was a result of the geth's own actions.
All you are doing is advocating the spread of racisim. You are breeding it with your words, by stating that you should just let hate dictate all your actions. Isn't that a racist belief you are spreading yourself with those words? 
The geth had no grugde against a race that was oepning it's hand in peace to them. They had no reason to distrust them. And if they didn't like the offer, they could turn it away, and part on ammicable terms - the Council already respects the geth borders in the current timeline. An ammible exchange of words would have bread an understanding and perhaps started to restore relations.
That's what you keep ignoring. You act like people should just hate forever. In fact, you basically are saying the geth should never forgive anyone and hate all organics, thus breading more racisim. It's adding to the problem. The geth added to the problem with their harsh actions against a group that hadn't done anything to them yet. The geth basically did to the Council what the quarians did to them - jumped to conclusions. They are guilty of the same fault their creators were. The geth are no different then the quarians in that regard.
They both started it. The quarians jumped to conclusions. The geth overzelously killed everything. They both had equal fault and equal part in this, with equally damnible actions. I [/i]repeate - they both started this domino effect.

Also, It looks like you continue to ignore what DenionSlayer and I said about Tali admitting that the quarians have pathological guilt over how their ancestors jumped to conclusions about the geth - something you keep glancing over. They already have said that the geth deserve to exist - they even said they feel the geth deserve Rannoch more then they do. The only reason they needed it back was because they would die otherwise.
They already have admitted this same thing - you just refuse to listen.
When you accept that both were equally faultible for this mess, [b]then [i]come and talk to me. As is, you refuse to acknowledge any other law but what you tell yourself.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 juin 2013 - 04:51 .

[Fayfel]

If you don't understand why geth are violent isolationists, you simply do not understand the geth.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

silverexile17s wrote...

Also, It looks like you continue to ignore what DenionSlayer and I said about Tali admitting that the quarians have pathological guilt over how their ancestors jumped to conclusions about the geth - something you keep glancing over. They already have said that the geth deserve to exist - they even said they feel the geth deserve Rannoch more then they do. The only reason they needed it back was because they would die otherwise.
They already have admitted this same thing - you just refuse to listen.
When you accept that both were equally faultible for this mess, then come and talk to me. As is, you refuse to acknowledge any other law but what you tell yourself.

The bold is why I've said it isn't about right or wrong. It is about survival. We fight or we die.  The Geth cut off negotiations because they did not reach consensus -- which doesn't simply mean we can't come to an agreement in geth talk on a yes or no issue, it means NO.

The Quarians developed a weapon that can take out the Geth. They decided to go all in. They were doing fine until the reaper landed and offered the Geth upgrades which the Geth took even though the Geth knew the reapers were going to kill them anyway.

So the choices for the Geth were:

* surrender to the Quarians, be enslaved by them, and fight against the reapers.
* side with the reapers, kill the Quarians and other organics, then die by the reapers.
* fight alone against the Quarians and die.

They chose to join the reapers, kill the Quarians, and die by the reapers. Then Shepard showed up. And unluckily for the Geth, when Svetlana showed up, they got turned into scrap metal.

[BioWareMod02]

Good constructive conversation is appreciated, lets make sure to keep it respectful. Thanks guys

[Dunabar]

remydat wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

So don't trust the Geth even if you have peaceful intent, thanks Rem. You make my hate for the Geth feel even more justified. Again the Quarians may not be perfect, but they don't just hammer someone off the bat. They only fire on ships if they cannot I.D the reason for the approaching ship coming at the Migrant fleet, or a Quarian on pilgrimage informs the fleet that the ship they are on is not friendly. Now as for what I have bolded, the Geth have shown no evidence that they wouldn't fire on just anyone who entered Geth space either.

As for your question - The Morning War is in the past, that cannot be changed now. Those Quarians are long dead by now, only the Geth servers that house the original data that is dated during that time are still around. The Quarians of the past made a mistake, paid for it in blood, and had to live with the choices they made. The Quarians of today though are being punished for actions that they were not even alive to commit. Again though the Quarian people are not perfect, but even a Quarian that is the offspring of a exile can go home to their people.

Short answer: That depends on when the Geth will finally stop shooting diplomats.

They tried to kill the Geth off the bat.  Did you miss in the morning war where the Geth were being gunned down because they asked questions?  The Quarians don't fire on other organics just like I don't see the Geth firing on other synthetics.  Find me evidence of a Geth ship approaching and a Quarian not firing on it?  You can't.  What the Quarians do with other organics proves nothing.  

Plenty of people currently living today had ancestors kicked off land that those ancestors possessed 300 years ago.  None of them except a small few sit there and cry about it and act like they have more entitlement to the land than the people currently living there.  This is non-sense.  They have not been living on the land for 300 years.  They have no more right to Rannoch than I have to some place in Africa that my ancestors lived on 300 years ago.

And pretty sure the Geth did not shoot a single diplomat until the Council that sent that diplomat had a law that said they should not exist and the Quarians decided to enforce that law by trying to exterminate them.  That diplomat aka Council spy was killed because the Quarians decided to kill.  So we still arrive back at the same question.  How many have to die before you consider talking first before resorting to killing?  You keep trying to talk about the aftermath of the decision to kill the Geth.  I am asking you about the decision before a single organic was killed by the Geth.

Ah the questions I would love to ask, but I rather not lower myelf to a particular Geth supporter who will not be named. (And no it's not you, Rem. Relax a sec before jumping)

Did I miss the morning war? Is that a serious question? I also believe you're mixing the Quarians of today with those of the past. Same race of people, but not the exact same people from 299-300 years ago. Neither the Quarians of the past or the Quarians of the present had/have a reason to trust the Geth.

Now if the Quarians of the past HAD actually intended to make a AI, I wouldn't have been as sympathetic to them (other than the children, civilians, and such.)  But they made a mistake, they paid the price, and now the present day Quarians continue to pay the price for something they didn't even do, hell were not even alive to commit. Should they have made peace talks? sure, but much like I said prior, they had no reason to trust the Geth.

The Quarians of the past did try kill the Geth right off the bat, yes. The modern day Quarians don't just kill anyone that comes in range of the migrant fleet, they actually try to establish communication with the ship before just shooting it. The only Geth they could have ran into prior to ME3 would have been heretic geth outside Geth space. If the Quarians blowing up Heretic Geth ships bothers you than lol, I have zero care to give you. Even then however, the Geth were considered a enemy to the galaxy and Legion's Geth did nothing to prove otherwise, so the Geth may not like it, but they got what was coming to them. Maybe if they didn't blow up every diplomat ship that came into Geth space, maybe they could have shown the council the error in their law against A,I. It may have even been a good chance to start peace talks with the Quarians.

But the Geth were fine with letting everyone hate them, so why should I even care if the Geth get bent out of shape about anything?

[shodiswe]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Also, It looks like you continue to ignore what DenionSlayer and I said about Tali admitting that the quarians have pathological guilt over how their ancestors jumped to conclusions about the geth - something you keep glancing over. They already have said that the geth deserve to exist - they even said they feel the geth deserve Rannoch more then they do. The only reason they needed it back was because they would die otherwise.
They already have admitted this same thing - you just refuse to listen.
When you accept that both were equally faultible for this mess, then come and talk to me. As is, you refuse to acknowledge any other law but what you tell yourself.

The bold is why I've said it isn't about right or wrong. It is about survival. We fight or we die.  The Geth cut off negotiations because they did not reach consensus -- which doesn't simply mean we can't come to an agreement in geth talk on a yes or no issue, it means NO.

The Quarians developed a weapon that can take out the Geth. They decided to go all in. They were doing fine until the reaper landed and offered the Geth upgrades which the Geth took even though the Geth knew the reapers were going to kill them anyway.

So the choices for the Geth were:

* surrender to the Quarians, be enslaved by them, and fight against the reapers.
* side with the reapers, kill the Quarians and other organics, then die by the reapers.
* fight alone against the Quarians and die.

They chose to join the reapers, kill the Quarians, and die by the reapers. Then Shepard showed up. And unluckily for the Geth, when Svetlana showed up, they got turned into scrap metal.

Reaching a consensus wasn't about making a peace with the Quarians because the Quarians had already rejected the peacenegotiations to tali before attacking.
The part about Legion telling Tali the Geth were having trouble reachign a consensus was after the Quarians attacked, maybe even weeks after when they eventualy reached a consensus to say "YES" to the Reapers after the Quarians had killed billions of Geth living on the Dyson bubble.

Also, not reaching a consensus isn't "NO" it means they are undecided and either needs more time to think or it's something they won't be able to agree upon in the window of opportunity for any given decision.

I mean, why would the Geth be voting on Tali's and Legion's Peacenegotiations when the Quarian admiralty had already voted "NO" to it and then attacked the Geth? Until the Quarians show an interest in peace or talking there isn't much to talk or vote on.

This shows a huge gap in your reasoning Julia. Also this has been up on the table as a known fact for months even if some people do seem slow to the fact that Shepard is asking about their communications after the attack and Tali tells us about them. It's an ingame fact, if you would have had any credibility then it would be sinking like a rock right about now.

http://www.youtube.c...JWTBbJJE#t=570s 

Notice the "AND SINCE THE ATTACK?" in the conversation wheel?

Modifié par shodiswe, 12 juin 2013 - 06:39 .

[Erez Kristal]

Dunabar wrote...

The Quarians of the past did try kill the Geth right off the bat, yes.

They attempted to shut down their computers...
How can you kill something which isnt alive?


I find some geth sympathizers highly patronizing of the geth.

Do you all really believe the geth arent capable of lying or other forms of manipulation because they are only machines?
Do you really think all they tell you and show is the truth? that they arent caable of working behind your back. spy on you... and destroy human colonies or quarrian without warnings.

How naive and patronizing can you be.

Dont let Edi preferences confuse you. edi was programmed to work with human and respect them. 
The geth were programmed to be as efficent as they can be.

which is why the geth have no problem in wiping out all organic life. right after they will finish dealing with the reapers...

[shodiswe]

erezike wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

The Quarians of the past did try kill the Geth right off the bat, yes.

They attempted to shut down their computers...
How can you kill something which isnt alive?


I find some geth sympathizers highly patronizing of the geth.

Do you all really believe the geth arent capable of lying or other forms of manipulation because they are only machines?
Do you really think all they tell you and show is the truth? that they arent caable of working behind your back. spy on you... and destroy human colonies or quarrian without warnings.

How naive and patronizing can you be.

Dont let Edi preferences confuse you. edi was programmed to work with human and respect them. 
The geth were programmed to be as efficent as they can be.

which is why the geth have no problem in wiping out all organic life. right after they will finish dealing with the reapers...

Any of the aliens could do that, the Turians even tried it at the first contact war, then the rest of the council halted them.
Quarians are found on a collector raided human colony where the defence droids had been inactive durign the raid but came online when investigators arrived, One of their admirals "Xen" is introdusing new Quarian weapons based on Collector design, the Arc Pistol, the Reegar Carbine, Adas Anti-synthetic rifle. all of it based on Collector technology.
The collectors sells technology to those that provides them the services they requier.
Governments and mercenary bands around the galaxy have been known to make deals for technological trinkets. The greater the service the greater the pay.
The Quarians also gained Stealth technology that's a knockoff of the Normandys (Tali?) The Salarians got the same, (Solus?) Solus first words regarded "Advanced Technology" it immediately caught his attention and interest.
The Salarains are planning to sectrely/covertly uplift the Yagh to do their bidding and attack other races so that the Salarians can deny any involvement and use the situation to serve their agendas.
The Krogans wants a Genophage Cure and more planets.
The Asari want's their dirty secrets keept secret.
The Batarians are quite open about their terrorism and criminal activites and legalized slavery.(almost makes them more trustworthy than the people who hides their sceaming)
The Volus are selling out Turian colonies and other species to Cerberus for "profit/thinking they are doing the right thing somehow, not sure how."
Humanity has Cerberus, (enough said)
Maybe Cerberus isn't rogue humans at all, maybe they are government funded after all, their resources and pockets are just incredly deep, so much so that ti's hard to explain it. Indoctrinated farmers servign as Soldiers can be explained but all the expensive Hardware is kind of hard. I guess they could indoctrinate entrepreneurs and corporate leaders to supply them what they need.

The problem is, it can't be proven which makes it a crazy conspiracy theory just like your posts about the Geth and just about everything else I've seen you write. So, yes, tere is story potential for conspracies but Bioware never did anything with it. Therefor unless Biware makes a story about it there won't be a story or any evidence.

But yeah, it's kind of weird that the Quarians advacnements all seem to be based on Collector tech that the normandy crew and Cerberus wern't able to unlock on their own. But the Quarians had several versions and exaples of Collector technology aswell as hacking technology unknown to Tali.

So, yes, there is a lot of potential for a story here, but Bioware didn't run with it so it's not there. Maybe in ME4?

Mass Effect: the secrets of the milkyway!

Also, I don't agree on the not alive part, it's a secondary point of contention in this thread. According to Bioware they are sentient and alive(Geth), dating back to the codex in ME1.

Modifié par shodiswe, 12 juin 2013 - 08:33 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

shodiswe wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Also, It looks like you continue to ignore what DenionSlayer and I said about Tali admitting that the quarians have pathological guilt over how their ancestors jumped to conclusions about the geth - something you keep glancing over. They already have said that the geth deserve to exist - they even said they feel the geth deserve Rannoch more then they do. The only reason they needed it back was because they would die otherwise.
They already have admitted this same thing - you just refuse to listen.
When you accept that both were equally faultible for this mess, then come and talk to me. As is, you refuse to acknowledge any other law but what you tell yourself.

The bold is why I've said it isn't about right or wrong. It is about survival. We fight or we die.  The Geth cut off negotiations because they did not reach consensus -- which doesn't simply mean we can't come to an agreement in geth talk on a yes or no issue, it means NO.

The Quarians developed a weapon that can take out the Geth. They decided to go all in. They were doing fine until the reaper landed and offered the Geth upgrades which the Geth took even though the Geth knew the reapers were going to kill them anyway.

So the choices for the Geth were:

* surrender to the Quarians, be enslaved by them, and fight against the reapers.
* side with the reapers, kill the Quarians and other organics, then die by the reapers.
* fight alone against the Quarians and die.

They chose to join the reapers, kill the Quarians, and die by the reapers. Then Shepard showed up. And unluckily for the Geth, when Svetlana showed up, they got turned into scrap metal.

Reaching a consensus wasn't about making a peace with the Quarians because the Quarians had already rejected the peacenegotiations to tali before attacking.
The part about Legion telling Tali the Geth were having trouble reachign a consensus was after the Quarians attacked, maybe even weeks after when they eventualy reached a consensus to say "YES" to the Reapers after the Quarians had killed billions of Geth living on the Dyson bubble.

Also, not reaching a consensus isn't "NO" it means they are undecided and either needs more time to think or it's something they won't be able to agree upon in the window of opportunity for any given decision.

I mean, why would the Geth be voting on Tali's and Legion's Peacenegotiations when the Quarian admiralty had already voted "NO" to it and then attacked the Geth? Until the Quarians show an interest in peace or talking there isn't much to talk or vote on.

This shows a huge gap in your reasoning Julia. Also this has been up on the table as a known fact for months even if some people do seem slow to the fact that Shepard is asking about their communications after the attack and Tali tells us about them. It's an ingame fact, if you would have had any credibility then it would be sinking like a rock right about now.

http://www.youtube.c...JWTBbJJE#t=570s 

Notice the "AND SINCE THE ATTACK?" in the conversation wheel?

It's been since the EC came out since I played the ME3 campaign. However, Legion's existence in the Rannoch campaign is not canon. Nor is Tali's. There is no canon there. Not to belabor a point, but Mac Walters did point out the "what the hell were we thinking" about the suicide mission where you could have what should have been essential characters die and import that Shepard into ME3. So there were a lot of compromises made in the storyline. This is just one of the results.

So we really can't even go by that "since the attack" part. That is not canon. That is a possibility. There may or may not have been communication between the Quarians and the Geth. I have one game where there wasn't any communication at all. Legion was already dead. He got it in the flashlight during the Suicide Mission because he had emotional issues which was illogical. He did say there was going to be a reckoning after the mission, but he was the best qualified for the tech work. I made a logical decision. The Quarians surprise attacked.

So Walters had the Admirals vote "No" as a default because of the variables. He also had the Geth, not reach consensus, which is their equivalent of "No." It does not mean "we're undecided." Their consensus must be unanimous. Unfortunately, this can mean that a small minority can prevent consensus on an issue. Legion could prevent consensus. However, they could also decide to exclude Legion. It gets complicated.

So something like this can make a decision take forever. The lack of consensus could have been billions No, and Legion and a small faction Yes. We don't know. It wasn't in the game, but for all intents and purposes considering the past 300 years, we can assume that the lack of consensus = "No" just to keep things on equal footing since apparently the Admiralty, which again isn't 100% canon that Tali is an Admiral or even exists, since she could be exiled or dead, might not be 100% in agreement either if Tali is around. Fair enough? I think so. It keeps things fair. It keeps the ass hattedness even, and quite honestly the Geth have done their fair share of it. -- "Hey galaxy, we had a faction break off and join Saren and this Reaper. It's not us, really. And sorry about blowing all your diplomatic ships to hell all those years. We really didn't mean it. Honest. Let bygones be bygones and all that rot?"

When Tali and Legion both continue in talks after this fact, after the attacks they are doing so independently of their Admiralty board and the Consensus.

So it seems like your credibility is sinking like a rock about now since you are looking at the Geth through rose colored glasses, and Legion colored glasses. So perhaps it was only Tali and Koris and Legion and a few other Geth who were interested in peace?

Perhaps the rest hated each other and mistrusted each other. We know Geth VI does. Geth VI is only biding his time until after the Reaper War. "We knew not to trust organics." Peace is impossible with Geth VI, so he gets a knife in the back and three slugs.

[Erez Kristal]

The matter other the geth being alive is a matter of philosophical debate as was seen between chief engineer adams and the cute french doctor.
Some people in bioware may claim they are alive. but this go much further than their opinions on the matter. bioware also think the ending was good...

Role playing games demands that you fill in the blanks many times. so sure there are no clear evidence of conspiracy. no one in the game tells you this happen that way. and even if they did, should you take their word for it? you can only judge what you see, you can only measure the facts that do you do know.

All that you claimed above are facts that you know, cerberus, salarian, asari, quarrian and krogan. you know whats going on. but our shepard is busy dealing with the reapers he has no time to educate others about what is right or wrong. who is he to do so anyway?

the facts as we know them are. the geth are attacking the quarrian at every chance they get, the geth attacked the citadel and many other human colonies. the geth attack everyone who enters the quarrian former space. the geth spy and gather information on the council species. the geth builds their militaray forces to their maximum abilities. the geth allied themselves with the reapers two times. the geth are efficent in their killing. they kill babies, children, civilians. they only capture people in order to turn them into husks.

The geth have no morals of good and evil. they do what they deem as most efficent. and that is why they are so dangerous.

[KiwiQuiche]

silverexile17s wrote...

A little tact never hurt anyone, right? You can say that you don't want to sift through a wall of text in ways that aren't going to ****** the other person off, because then it just becomes a grudge match. Trust me - I've been there (although you probably figured that much out already).

I'm not against a sling. I'd just rather not have it be mud-slinging.

But they weren't intended to be living beings in the first place. How would you feel if you're tools, appliances (whatever you equate the geth to) were watching your actions without you knowing it? If you do something bad and don't know they are watching, are you responcible for teaching them that, or is it an accident because you didn't know you were being watched.
There's a difference between something mimicing you, and consencely teaching them. The latter is from an intent to make the person share your belifes and way of life. That explisitly was not what the quarians wanted. They wanted simple tools that wouldn't have the same weaknesses that organics would. A cheep labor force that could work 24/7 and be self-sufficant on it's own, so no riots and no rebellons. It's basically how modern labor here on Earth is being replace by automated machines that do all the menial, laborus, and dangerous work instead of risking humans. The geth weren't ment to be people - they were ment to be automated/remote-controled soldiers, workers, construction units, seed-planters, crop-harvesters, hazmat units, automated surgions, and crash-test units. All the things that living beings would never subject themselves to. And at a simple call, they could all become the best fighting millita in existance. Just mindless stand-in's. That's all the geth were created to be. They weren't in the "care" of the quarians they way offspring would be. It was more like a craftsmen and his tools
So naturally, it was a shock when they started asking questions.
The quarians made the geth to be completely self-sufficant. They didn't need the quarians for anything, but the quarians needed them for everything. Using what were, basically, crash-test dummys for everything dangerous is fine. But the idea that they might be forcing living beings into doing this..... well, if that was true, then the geth would not be satisfied with being a labor force. And there was nothing the geth needed from the quarians that they couldn't make or take themselves. In fact, without the geth, the quarians were the ones that were screwed, because they had become reliant on the geth for nearly everything. Yet the geth had no such reliance on the quarians. This became a fear that, having not been given emotions, morals, or ethics (what would automated "stand-ins" need with those?), the geth would see no reason to keep the quarians around, and take their resources for themselves. The quarians would be cast aside, if not killed outright.
Now, granted, they didn't know that this was the enivitable outcome, but they decided they would rather not bet their entire race on the answer. Was it jumping the gun? Hell yes. Was the fear that caused it unreasonable or unsjutified? No.

Actually, this isn't ture. According to the Codex, the anti-synthetic laws were not as strict as they are now until after the Morning War. If anything, it seems that the geth killing the peace envoys was the spark that triggered a more through systemic repressal of A.I.s then before. And likewise, why would the organics even try to talk then? Yet they did. They tried to talk with the geth. It's stated that the reason the A.I, laws are so harsh are because no one wants a repeat of the geth. The geth are the example brought up every time this rule is disscussed. While the rule did exist back then, it was not enforced so harshly until after the geth's arisal to sentiance.
Also, legally, Rannoch is not their home - it's technically stolen property. By law, as members of the Citadel Races, the Council would have had full legal athourity to march into the Veil and kill the geth. They didn't. Instead they sent peace envoys and tried to make contact with them. But the geth never responded to hails, and when ships decided to go in and talk face to face, they were shot dead. In fact, the only reason the ships went into the Veil was because the geth didn't answer hails. Had the geth answered hails, the ships wouldn't even have gone into the Veil to begin with.
Was answering hails with a simple "no, thank you" and turn down the organics on at least semi-amicable terms really that hard or horrible to do? Or sending a wide-band signal over the extranet asking for solitude so that teh ships would know to not come past the border in the frist place? Especally when the only reason they entered your space is because you weren't answering said hails? After all, the Council respects the batarian's wishes and don't cross into their space when warned off. I don't see why the geth couldn't have done the same.

But can you look at the unessessary slaughter the geth caused in the Morning War, and honestly say that the geth weren't guilty of overreacting too? They were pretty damn overzelous in their retaliation - they could have psuhed the quarians back without needing to be so ruthless and drive them completely out of the Veil. Prove they could fight back and make the quarians leave them alone - that's one thing. Driving them to near-extinction is another.
So I'm sorry, but the geth are just as guilty of a gross overreaction as the quarians were. Look at the track record of both.
Both were mostly isolationsist.
Both governened by group consensis.
Both have overreacted in life or death situations.
Both developed an insular sociaty.
Both were considered outcasts by the galaxy, and largely due to their own actions.
Both felt heavy remorse for what they did to the other.
Both did not trust the other because of each-other's past actions.
Both did not trust their "black sheep" (Legion & Tali) enough to bank their races on their peace ideal
Both were forced into circumstances in which they had to choose either survival, or death.
Both chose survival, and did not do so out of any form of racisim or bigotry.

And look at their chart of actions in their lifetimes.
Quarians make assumptions on geth nature. Geth go over the top in fighting back.
Quarians spend 300 years running from the problem. Geth spend 300 years ignoring the problem.
Geth kill anyone that tries to talk with them. Quarians live on scraps of everyone else.
Rouge quarian admiral experiments with geth test subjects. Rouge geth faction attacks the galaxy with Reaper.
Quarians panic from Reaper invasion, try to get Rannoch. Geth panic from quarian invasion, side with Reapers.
How are they different? The only thing different about them is their race. The've both taken similar actions, and have a similar cultural structure. And when quarians jumped to conclusions, the geth evened out the scale by acting overzelous. The actions they took were equally fultable. The quarians started the war. The geth were responcible for the death tool. One side made a conclusion. The other was unessessarily harsh. It all evens out.

Codex Entry: ME3: Planets and Locations: Rannoch.
The planet Rannoch, an arid planet orbiting an older star in the Tikkun system, is the former quarian homeworld. Almost three hundred years ago, the quarians were driven from Rannoch by the geth,
synthetic servants who gained sapience and rebelled against their
creators. Although Rannoch is now largely uninhabited, the geth have
acted as caretakers, working to repair the planet's ecology, restore
ancient structures, and cultivate some farmland.
Rannoch has no insect life. As a result, its pollinating plants
evolved to rely on animals for propagation. This symbiosis between flora
and fauna is responsible for the quarians' weakened immune systems,
which made colonization of other planets extremely difficult after their
exile from Rannoch. For many quarians, reclaiming their homeworld from
the geth is a matter of both cultural and physiological necessity.[/i]
The second paragraph, underlined and bolded, are the improtant parts in this. "Quarians need Rannoch to survive" is completely cannon - as cannon as the Morning War itself. Add to this that the Council didn't let them have any other worlds, not even ones they themselves found, and it makes it pretty clear that the quarians are a doomed race without Rannoch. hell, this is the only reason why they attack the geth at all - because they are a doomed race without a world. And only one world can still sustain them - their homeworld, with it's resoruces untouched by the geth, and the geth's defenses becoming the perfect fortress for their people. Literally their last hope.

But can you say that the Heretic's actions gave anyone in the galaxy any reason to trust the geth? And you yourself said that the geth "following base nature" was inevitable, and the quarians believed that too - it's the reason why they attacked in the Morning War. Because they thought the geth wouldn't move past their emotonal limitations, and would just cast them aside and take their resources.
And again, that is explisitly not what the quarians are planning. They just want Rannoch back period. They don't want to fight anyone - the geth are just in the way. And remember, at this point, the quarians think the geth are allies of the Reapers. They think the geth already tried to commit genocide against the entire galaxy at the Battle of the Citadel.  How is anyone supposed to even consider the geth innocent when they say nothing and let themselves take the fall for all the Heretics did? Wouldn't Koris, Tali and Legion's peace arguement been more valid, had the quarians seen that more then just one geth was behind the proposal? That the geth that attacked the Citadel aren't the same ones behind the Veil, and that they don't want to fight either? How can you make any move to assume innocence when the other never even makes the plea for innocence in the first place? What Shepard knows is not known to the rest of the galaxy. Hell, it isn't until the end of the Rannoch War that the rest of the galaxy learns that there was such a thing as a Heretic Split.
As I said before - the failure to create peace falls on both their shoulders. The geth weren't any more supportive of the idea then the quarians were. Nither side did anything to promote it. Otherwise, Legion wouldn't have been withdrawn by the geth and never allowed to resiablish contact with Tali.

After watching the geth attack the Citadel, Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, and Therum, there isn't a soul out there that wouldn't need to be talked down from killing a geth. Hell, the quarians weren't even aware that they were the reason the geth sided with the Reapers. As far as the quarians knew, the geth were Reaper allies for three years. The only thing that states otherwise is one single geth unit. You keep ignoring the fact that no one knew there was such a thing as "geth Heretics." No one at all knew this.
Also, if someone out of the blue said "break off your attack" against the Reapers, and didn't give a reason why, would you follow that order? Would't the Reapers actions speak all the evidence you need to consider sparing them insanity? As far as the quarians know, the geth share the Reapers goals. The reason they need to be talked to is because you need to tell them these things, because they aren't aware of them. [/u]Also, according to the battle transcript in the Codex (The Battle for Rannoch), the quarians are the ones that break off first according to the transcript. It states the geth broke off after the quarians did. After all, name a singe action the geth did to show the galaxy they wanted to sit down and talk peacefully. Because thus far, all the galaxy has seen are Heretics, and the Ture geth never once made any effort to let people know the Heretics were seperet entities from them.

But again, you ignore the fact that these people are everywhere. In your house, on every street, in every shop, in every building. There is nowhere you can go where they are not. You have no escape from them - they are everywere. And they have assumedly no qualms about attacking you. They weren't given your morals or ethics - you're laws don't apply to them. They don't have to respect or acknowledge you if they don't want to. And they have no reason to want to. They have no reason to care about you at all, and may just as easily cast you aside for the simple reason that they can - you don't have or need to be a threat to them. They could just decide to cast you away for "just because." They could decide they don't need you, since they don't - they are self-sufficant. They don't require you, and can get farther without you.
The point is that - do you feel safe risking your loved ones on a gamble like that? Just answer that much. In an unavoidable situation like this, who are you going to default to?

And likewise, if that's how you see the geth, then how do you say that the quarians didn't have anything to be worried about? Also, you do realize that you can't say that for sure - remember, the quarians first impulse was not to kill the geth. Instead, they ignored the problem hoping it was a glicth. Then they tied reprogramming - explisitly so they would not have to destroy them. So yes, they would have spared them in that sense, since they didn't want the geth destroyed until they became a potental safety hazard to every single quarian in existance. That was when the quarians decided that protecting the people and families was more importnat then preserving their tools.
And as shown in the end of the Rannoch War, the quarians are much more accepting.
In fact, go the ME Wiki if you want. It states that the quarians are actually the race most accepting of A.I.s then any others, given how quickly they accept the geth at the end of the Rannoch War.

But those laws were not that strict until after the geth's actions. The geth's own "barring of doors" is what led to the Council increasing policies, not the other way around. You've got it reversed.
The geth's own gunpoint-held policy is what made the Council tighten it's grip on anti-synthetic laws. So, how is that understandible, when simply responding to hails and saying "no thanks, we don't want any visitors" of putting out a public boradcast saying "we just want to be left alone. No visitors please" would have worked just as well and [u]bettered public opinion of synthetics by showing that they could be talked to and had simple wants and desires like any other race did? How did alienating them all with wonton death to the envoys work better then trying to show them that they were reasonable and docile?

But surely you could at least understand why others would?  Even Legion himself says that he understands and accepts the quarians actions as "a reflex of the flesh. A natural responce."
I'm asking who you would save - a being that might be sentiant, but has no reason to respect your morals or ethics? Or your family?  Is it really that easy to chance all your loved ones on a coin toss that can go either way? And surely you can at least understand why the quarians wouldn't want to risk all they know and love on a fleeting maybe.

Maybe, but they are still a young race finding their way - the korgan have the mindset of a starting culture too. It it that surprising that a starting-out culture wouldn't approch things any different then a primitive one? They still are quite similar to organics in the regard that they deal with things in harsh manners when they are just starting out. They aren't any more innocent of crime or mistake or overzelousness then the quarians, or anyone else is for that matter. Everyone screws up. None of them are worth less for it. The geth aren't worth more then the quarians or any other race - same as how no individual race is worth more then them. If you like a spicific race, it's personal prefrence - because none of these races is "superior" to the other.

Eh, I've been on BSN for quite a while and it tends to make you kinda sour and...hostile in many cases

They may have been intended as to be living- in terms of organs and whatnot, but they certainly begin to develop sentience. Well, being watched out be creepy...but the major difference is how humanoid the geth are (or quarianiod, whatever). If my gun did start chatting to be it would be weird, but geth are bipedial. They walk and can interact with the world. Therefore it is far easily to speak with them- geth could easilly talk before the War, the quarians just didn't anticpate the level of their thoughts.

The quarians may not have wanted it, but it is what happened. Quarians may have wanted tools, but their tools grew smart and grew their own minds. Therefore the quarians cannot just treat them as mechanical servants, because the geth grew into a sapient race. Yes, it may be understandable. But I do not approve and feel it was the wrong decision for the quarians to behave so violently to a new-born race of sapient beings.

The geth didn't understand what they were doing; their minds were still pretty much children when the Morning War began. So yes, they went overboard but they had a valid reason for it while the quarians didn't. And ultimately, the geth let the quarians leave. The quarians wouldn't have returned the gesture. That's the biggest difference.

In terms of their society; the geth have completely different minds and communication from current organics; the only who can really compare are Rachni. That is why the geth are so different witb their society. Quarians are still organics, they still think and behave like them and still communicate in the same manner.

Chances; geth would be willing to try peace, as Legion bluntly states in ME2. However Quarians have always been aggressive towards them. When quarians ever think they have an advantage, they attack 100% of the time. The geth leave quarians alone and don't pick fights with them. The quarians do so the geth have utterly no reason to take a chance with quarians who have proved themselves time and again as hostile.

The geth did trust Legion; when he returned and spoke to the Consensus they believed him. Tali was only really made an Admiral for show and it's pretty obvious none of the Admirals really care for her opinion; Gerrel even tries to kill her without hesistation. At least the geth stop acting like morons when Legion is freed.

The quarians attacked the geth before the Reapers even invaded. So they did not panic and attack the geth due to the Reapers appearing.

Rannoch; Oh what the hell would the quarians done with it even if they had gotten it back? Sit and farm for a week before being devoured by Reapers? Defenses mean squat when you die from one bullet wound and the Reapers would most likely just bomb the whole planet since quarians are fairly useless fighters. They lasted three centuries without Rannoch; I'm pretty sure  they can last a few more weeks without causing more unnessecry deaths over their planet obsession.

The geth didn't steal Rannoch; they were born on it, they have as much right to it as the quarians. If the geth invaded from space and took it- that would be stealing. What the geth did wasn't stealing.

The geth were under no obligation to explain themselves since they did nothing; even when Legion is bought to the Council/Admiralty board, everyone basically ignores what he says. So obviously even if the geth went and said "hey our cult-bros did this" organics wouldn't believe them.

What? The only reason the quarians attacked the geth was because of Xen's weapon; which basically caused the geth to have numerous seizures when it was used on them.
The geth just wanted to build their sphere; the quarians jumped in and attacked- they did it a few days before the Reapers showed up, so they didn't know the geth were Reaper allies so they can't fob that off. They were just starting stupid sh!t due to their pipe-dream despite all the warnings. At least the geth didn't go out and get in a punch up while an immient Reaper horde lurked in Dark Space.

Legion got captured and sealed up; he can't really go and ping Tali while like that. At least the geth were open to peace talks; but Quarians attacked 100% of the time, so why show them any faith when they never do?

That 'someone' is the gorram Shepard. You damn well listen to the woman who saved the fleet, gave you a new Admiral and warned your stupid people to not go to war due to a imminent Reaper Invasion-adivice they blithely ignored and went to war regardless. Someone who save another one of your Admirals, saved the Citadel, killed the Collectors, cured the genophage and forged a Turian/Krogan alliance. Shepard isn't some random vagrant, she has proven herself time and again that she is someone who knows her sh!t. Too bad the quarians seem to stupid to realize it. They even attempted to explode a damn ship with her and one of their Admirals on it and they don't have the brainwashed defense; the Admirals knew full well what was going on and had complete control over themselves.

The quarians broke off when the geth networked with the Reaper, which caused the geth to kick the sh!t out of the quarians. Otherwise the quarians would haved kill them all. In the Rannoch arc once you kill the Reaper, the geth stop attacking. Gerrel states it plainly. Then he goes all stupid and tries to rark up more crap due to his blood-hungry ways, it's only when Shepard, Koris and Tali tell him to fcuk up does he do so. Other wise he literally lets all his people die if you tell him to sod off. If the quarians had retreated, the geth would have let them be at this point.

If said could-be-killer was that widespread, wouldn't you try harder at [i]not provoking them? Or befriend them? Seems foolish to deliberately anger and attack someone who is current neutral towards you, someone who is strong, more intelligent and lethal than you are and is all over the place. As you pointed out, there was nowhere you could go that they weren't there. So wouldn't it be better to leave them docile or at least try and communicate with them when you realize just how intelligent and self-aware they are, rather than attack them?

The quarians would have re-programmed the geth; they basically wanted to lobotmozie them and re-enslave the geth to do their jobs. I'm not going to endorse that and in many cases people would prefer death over being enslaved. In case of point with the end of Rannoch; I frankly regard Rannoch as an utter narrative mess, but I doubt most quarians leave by-gones as by-gones. Tali plainly states she would have killed all the geth if she was in Shepard's place, a cut quest had Xen trying to enslave the geth, Rann says how she's keeping the quarians and geth fleets apart due to the fact she knows full-well they aren't fully accepting of each other.  And just because you accept doesn't mean you like. Also the quarians are vastly out-gunned on the ground and Xen's weapon doesn't work on them anymore. Better to be nice to the heavily-armed synthetics who are letting you live on their world.

The Council still killed any A.I- as seen on Citadel, so obviously they were 'open arms for hugs' in regards to synthetics. The geth didn't want contact, they were still struggling with how to think and behave after kicking out the quarians. To their knowledge, trying to talk to people is the same as shooting them- as they spoke to the quarians who attacked. I'm not saying what they did was smart, I'm saying it's understandable due to their current exposure to organics. If the geth invited in the organics then shot them down, yeah I would say they were hostile, The geth didn't invite them though-the Council were intruding in the geths territory so the geth reacted with force. Considering that's all they have know, they have no obligation to open their doors to the Council.

The Council breeched their space; basically breaking and entering. If you were the geth, who at that point had had organics trying to kill you left right and centre, you would make them go away which the geth did.  The geth didn't understand diplomacy or tact; words only made their situation worse and bullets made the situation leave.The geth also kept their aggressive inside the Veil- this is very important, as they wouldn't harrass anyone who didn't sneak over their territory.

Just because you understand and accept something doesn't mean you approve or endorse it. That is my stance on the quarians actions; I understand it, yet I do not approve of it and wouldn't have done the same thing in their situation.

I've never claimed geth are superior- they just behave less stupid than the quarians.

[shodiswe]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Also, It looks like you continue to ignore what DenionSlayer and I said about Tali admitting that the quarians have pathological guilt over how their ancestors jumped to conclusions about the geth - something you keep glancing over. They already have said that the geth deserve to exist - they even said they feel the geth deserve Rannoch more then they do. The only reason they needed it back was because they would die otherwise.
They already have admitted this same thing - you just refuse to listen.
When you accept that both were equally faultible for this mess, then come and talk to me. As is, you refuse to acknowledge any other law but what you tell yourself.

The bold is why I've said it isn't about right or wrong. It is about survival. We fight or we die.  The Geth cut off negotiations because they did not reach consensus -- which doesn't simply mean we can't come to an agreement in geth talk on a yes or no issue, it means NO.

The Quarians developed a weapon that can take out the Geth. They decided to go all in. They were doing fine until the reaper landed and offered the Geth upgrades which the Geth took even though the Geth knew the reapers were going to kill them anyway.

So the choices for the Geth were:

* surrender to the Quarians, be enslaved by them, and fight against the reapers.
* side with the reapers, kill the Quarians and other organics, then die by the reapers.
* fight alone against the Quarians and die.

They chose to join the reapers, kill the Quarians, and die by the reapers. Then Shepard showed up. And unluckily for the Geth, when Svetlana showed up, they got turned into scrap metal.

Reaching a consensus wasn't about making a peace with the Quarians because the Quarians had already rejected the peacenegotiations to tali before attacking.
The part about Legion telling Tali the Geth were having trouble reachign a consensus was after the Quarians attacked, maybe even weeks after when they eventualy reached a consensus to say "YES" to the Reapers after the Quarians had killed billions of Geth living on the Dyson bubble.

Also, not reaching a consensus isn't "NO" it means they are undecided and either needs more time to think or it's something they won't be able to agree upon in the window of opportunity for any given decision.

I mean, why would the Geth be voting on Tali's and Legion's Peacenegotiations when the Quarian admiralty had already voted "NO" to it and then attacked the Geth? Until the Quarians show an interest in peace or talking there isn't much to talk or vote on.

This shows a huge gap in your reasoning Julia. Also this has been up on the table as a known fact for months even if some people do seem slow to the fact that Shepard is asking about their communications after the attack and Tali tells us about them. It's an ingame fact, if you would have had any credibility then it would be sinking like a rock right about now.

http://www.youtube.c...JWTBbJJE#t=570s 

Notice the "AND SINCE THE ATTACK?" in the conversation wheel?

It's been since the EC came out since I played the ME3 campaign. However, Legion's existence in the Rannoch campaign is not canon. Nor is Tali's. There is no canon there. Not to belabor a point, but Mac Walters did point out the "what the hell were we thinking" about the suicide mission where you could have what should have been essential characters die and import that Shepard into ME3. So there were a lot of compromises made in the storyline. This is just one of the results.

So we really can't even go by that "since the attack" part. That is not canon. That is a possibility. There may or may not have been communication between the Quarians and the Geth. I have one game where there wasn't any communication at all. Legion was already dead. He got it in the flashlight during the Suicide Mission because he had emotional issues which was illogical. He did say there was going to be a reckoning after the mission, but he was the best qualified for the tech work. I made a logical decision. The Quarians surprise attacked.

So Walters had the Admirals vote "No" as a default because of the variables. He also had the Geth, not reach consensus, which is their equivalent of "No." It does not mean "we're undecided." Their consensus must be unanimous. Unfortunately, this can mean that a small minority can prevent consensus on an issue. Legion could prevent consensus. However, they could also decide to exclude Legion. It gets complicated.

So something like this can make a decision take forever. The lack of consensus could have been billions No, and Legion and a small faction Yes. We don't know. It wasn't in the game, but for all intents and purposes considering the past 300 years, we can assume that the lack of consensus = "No" just to keep things on equal footing since apparently the Admiralty, which again isn't 100% canon that Tali is an Admiral or even exists, since she could be exiled or dead, might not be 100% in agreement either if Tali is around. Fair enough? I think so. It keeps things fair. It keeps the ass hattedness even, and quite honestly the Geth have done their fair share of it. -- "Hey galaxy, we had a faction break off and join Saren and this Reaper. It's not us, really. And sorry about blowing all your diplomatic ships to hell all those years. We really didn't mean it. Honest. Let bygones be bygones and all that rot?"

When Tali and Legion both continue in talks after this fact, after the attacks they are doing so independently of their Admiralty board and the Consensus.

So it seems like your credibility is sinking like a rock about now since you are looking at the Geth through rose colored glasses, and Legion colored glasses. So perhaps it was only Tali and Koris and Legion and a few other Geth who were interested in peace?

Perhaps the rest hated each other and mistrusted each other. We know Geth VI does. Geth VI is only biding his time until after the Reaper War. "We knew not to trust organics." Peace is impossible with Geth VI, so he gets a knife in the back and three slugs.

The "looser" Shepard provided to people who didn't play ME1 and 2 isn't canon. I'm pretty sure they added that character jsut to encourage peopel to play the previous game/games, or buy genesis/2.
Buy, or get the least sucessful shepard who just barely managed to survive the suicide mission.

Tbh, I support this idea, if you want results they you have to work for it or it makes the efforts of everyone else seem cheap. And the import feature pointless.

Modifié par shodiswe, 12 juin 2013 - 10:46 .