1071 réponses à ce sujet

[shodiswe]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Also, It looks like you continue to ignore what DenionSlayer and I said about Tali admitting that the quarians have pathological guilt over how their ancestors jumped to conclusions about the geth - something you keep glancing over. They already have said that the geth deserve to exist - they even said they feel the geth deserve Rannoch more then they do. The only reason they needed it back was because they would die otherwise.
They already have admitted this same thing - you just refuse to listen.
When you accept that both were equally faultible for this mess, then come and talk to me. As is, you refuse to acknowledge any other law but what you tell yourself.

The bold is why I've said it isn't about right or wrong. It is about survival. We fight or we die.  The Geth cut off negotiations because they did not reach consensus -- which doesn't simply mean we can't come to an agreement in geth talk on a yes or no issue, it means NO.

The Quarians developed a weapon that can take out the Geth. They decided to go all in. They were doing fine until the reaper landed and offered the Geth upgrades which the Geth took even though the Geth knew the reapers were going to kill them anyway.

So the choices for the Geth were:

* surrender to the Quarians, be enslaved by them, and fight against the reapers.
* side with the reapers, kill the Quarians and other organics, then die by the reapers.
* fight alone against the Quarians and die.

They chose to join the reapers, kill the Quarians, and die by the reapers. Then Shepard showed up. And unluckily for the Geth, when Svetlana showed up, they got turned into scrap metal.

Reaching a consensus wasn't about making a peace with the Quarians because the Quarians had already rejected the peacenegotiations to tali before attacking.
The part about Legion telling Tali the Geth were having trouble reachign a consensus was after the Quarians attacked, maybe even weeks after when they eventualy reached a consensus to say "YES" to the Reapers after the Quarians had killed billions of Geth living on the Dyson bubble.

Also, not reaching a consensus isn't "NO" it means they are undecided and either needs more time to think or it's something they won't be able to agree upon in the window of opportunity for any given decision.

I mean, why would the Geth be voting on Tali's and Legion's Peacenegotiations when the Quarian admiralty had already voted "NO" to it and then attacked the Geth? Until the Quarians show an interest in peace or talking there isn't much to talk or vote on.

This shows a huge gap in your reasoning Julia. Also this has been up on the table as a known fact for months even if some people do seem slow to the fact that Shepard is asking about their communications after the attack and Tali tells us about them. It's an ingame fact, if you would have had any credibility then it would be sinking like a rock right about now.

http://www.youtube.c...JWTBbJJE#t=570s 

Notice the "AND SINCE THE ATTACK?" in the conversation wheel?

It's been since the EC came out since I played the ME3 campaign. However, Legion's existence in the Rannoch campaign is not canon. Nor is Tali's. There is no canon there. Not to belabor a point, but Mac Walters did point out the "what the hell were we thinking" about the suicide mission where you could have what should have been essential characters die and import that Shepard into ME3. So there were a lot of compromises made in the storyline. This is just one of the results.

So we really can't even go by that "since the attack" part. That is not canon. That is a possibility. There may or may not have been communication between the Quarians and the Geth. I have one game where there wasn't any communication at all. Legion was already dead. He got it in the flashlight during the Suicide Mission because he had emotional issues which was illogical. He did say there was going to be a reckoning after the mission, but he was the best qualified for the tech work. I made a logical decision. The Quarians surprise attacked.

So Walters had the Admirals vote "No" as a default because of the variables. He also had the Geth, not reach consensus, which is their equivalent of "No." It does not mean "we're undecided." Their consensus must be unanimous. Unfortunately, this can mean that a small minority can prevent consensus on an issue. Legion could prevent consensus. However, they could also decide to exclude Legion. It gets complicated.

So something like this can make a decision take forever. The lack of consensus could have been billions No, and Legion and a small faction Yes. We don't know. It wasn't in the game, but for all intents and purposes considering the past 300 years, we can assume that the lack of consensus = "No" just to keep things on equal footing since apparently the Admiralty, which again isn't 100% canon that Tali is an Admiral or even exists, since she could be exiled or dead, might not be 100% in agreement either if Tali is around. Fair enough? I think so. It keeps things fair. It keeps the ass hattedness even, and quite honestly the Geth have done their fair share of it. -- "Hey galaxy, we had a faction break off and join Saren and this Reaper. It's not us, really. And sorry about blowing all your diplomatic ships to hell all those years. We really didn't mean it. Honest. Let bygones be bygones and all that rot?"

When Tali and Legion both continue in talks after this fact, after the attacks they are doing so independently of their Admiralty board and the Consensus.

So it seems like your credibility is sinking like a rock about now since you are looking at the Geth through rose colored glasses, and Legion colored glasses. So perhaps it was only Tali and Koris and Legion and a few other Geth who were interested in peace?

Perhaps the rest hated each other and mistrusted each other. We know Geth VI does. Geth VI is only biding his time until after the Reaper War. "We knew not to trust organics." Peace is impossible with Geth VI, so he gets a knife in the back and three slugs.

Since there was nothign for the Geth to vote on after the Quarian Admiralty sacked the peacetalks the Geth "Vote" wasn't about peace, but wether or not to accept Reaper aid.

When get are trying ot a reach a consensus on a Yes or No question/issue then the consensus can be Yes or No, both would be a consensus.
Failing to reach a consensus means they can't agree.
I do agree however that Legion and possibly any of his "friends/supporters" might have been excluded at the end.
It's also possible the Geth Legion wanted to "Liberate" from the Reapers might have been his "friends".

To make it short, it makes no sense for the Geth to vote on peace after they got attacked by the Quarians when the Quarians had already voted agaisnt it before the attack. Once it's been rejected by the other party it's pointless to be divided or even argue the points when there is no case.

Modifié par shodiswe, 12 juin 2013 - 10:43 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

KiwiQuiche wrote...


The quarians may not have wanted it, but it is what happened. Quarians may have wanted tools, but their tools grew smart and grew their own minds. Therefore the quarians cannot just treat them as mechanical servants, because the geth grew into a sapient race. Yes, it may be understandable. But I do not approve and feel it was the wrong decision for the quarians to behave so violently to a new-born race of sapient beings.

The problem is when you don't know your appliance has become sapient or is malfunctioning. Not all Quarians are technical experts. That one can guarantee. Just like not all Americans own cell phones. I can see someone needs to write a book "When An Appliance Awakens"

The geth didn't understand what they were doing; their minds were still pretty much children when the Morning War began. So yes, they went overboard but they had a valid reason for it while the quarians didn't. And ultimately, the geth let the quarians leave. The quarians wouldn't have returned the gesture. That's the biggest difference.

You don't know what the quarians would have done. You are making an assumption based upon speculation.

Chances; geth would be willing to try peace, as Legion bluntly states in ME2. However Quarians have always been aggressive towards them. When quarians ever think they have an advantage, they attack 100% of the time. The geth leave quarians alone and don't pick fights with them. The quarians do so the geth have utterly no reason to take a chance with quarians who have proved themselves time and again as hostile.

Yet when Tali lands a recon mission on Haestrom, like a small recon group to gather some intel is a real aggressive threat, they get hit with a nuclear response from the geth instead of being simply captured and interrogated. And those are not Heretics. The Quarians sure didn't have the advantage there.

It's the Middle East. We won't launch rockets if you stop encroaching. Okay we'll stop encroaching if you won't launch rockets. This is the way it's been going on for the past 60 years. The negotiations are stalled

The geth did trust Legion; when he returned and spoke to the Consensus they believed him. Tali was only really made an Admiral for show and it's pretty obvious none of the Admirals really care for her opinion; Gerrel even tries to kill her without hesistation.

Motive and evidence? This implies murder. There is no evidence of this. I never saw Gerrel try to kill Tali without hesitation. Yes she was made Admiral for show IN SOME GAMES, but in some games she is dead, and in others she is exiled. Her being admiral is not canon.

Legion's existence after the Suicide Mission or even during the Suicide Mission is not canon either.

The quarians attacked the geth before the Reapers even invaded. So they did not panic and attack the geth due to the Reapers appearing.

Right, because they could win and at the rate things were going it would have been game over.

Rannoch; Oh what the hell would the quarians done with it even if they had gotten it back? Sit and farm for a week before being devoured by Reapers? Defenses mean squat when you die from one bullet wound and the Reapers would most likely just bomb the whole planet since quarians are fairly useless fighters. They lasted three centuries without Rannoch; I'm pretty sure  they can last a few more weeks without causing more unnessecry deaths over their planet obsession.

No, there were only 17 million, and that is not a high priority target. That is about a metropolitan area. The reapers have larger planets to harvest. The would have gotten their live ships out of the fleet, and their heavy fleet main fleet would have been left. They finally had the advantage with Xen's weapon and used it. And yes that is the only reason they attacked. Otherwise an attack would have been hopeless. Payback is a b****.

I thing the Geth have behaved equally as ass hattedly as the Quarians. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I remember Eden Prime, Noveria, Feros, Therum, Virmire, Ilos, The Citadel, and several other worlds where I found humans that were left on dragon's teeth brought there by the Geth.

I encouraged the Quarians to take back their home world, so why would I be alarmed about them doing it? "Good luck in your war!" I blew up the Heretics. Legion was dead, and so there were no peace negotiations. I told Gerrel to counterattack, then told Gerrel to give me a heads up the next time. Geth VI took a knife in the back and three slugs. And the Quarian fleet turned the Geth into scrap metal. 

No one was sad about it among all the races you have on your ship. No one missed the Geth except for EDI. That is a pretty sad endorsement for the Geth.

[KiwiQuiche]

Okay, lets see if my formatting goes ballistic...


[quote]sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

[quote]KiwiQuiche wrote...


The quarians may not have wanted it, but it is what happened. Quarians may have wanted tools, but their tools grew smart and grew their own minds. Therefore the quarians cannot just treat them as mechanical servants, because the geth grew into a sapient race. Yes, it may be understandable. But I do not approve and feel it was the wrong decision for the quarians to behave so violently to a new-born race of sapient beings.[/quote]

The problem is when you don't know your appliance has become sapient or is malfunctioning. Not all Quarians are technical experts. That one can guarantee. Just like not all Americans own cell phones. I can see someone needs to write a book "When An Appliance Awakens"

[/quote]

When they start questioning their existance is a fairly good start.


[quote]

The geth didn't understand what they were doing; their minds were still pretty much children when the Morning War began. So yes, they went overboard but they had a valid reason for it while the quarians didn't. And ultimately, the geth let the quarians leave. The quarians wouldn't have returned the gesture. That's the biggest difference. [/quote]
[quote]
You don't know what the quarians would have done. You are making an assumption based upon speculation.
[/quote]
I'm making assumptions based on the quarians attitudes and the Rannoch arch.


[quote]

Chances; geth would be willing to try peace, as Legion bluntly states in ME2. However Quarians have always been aggressive towards them. When quarians ever think they have an advantage, they attack 100% of the time. The geth leave quarians alone and don't pick fights with them. The quarians do so the geth have utterly no reason to take a chance with quarians who have proved themselves time and again as hostile. [/quote]
[quote]
Yet when Tali lands a recon mission on Haestrom, like a small recon group to gather some intel is a real aggressive threat, they get hit with a nuclear response from the geth instead of being simply captured and interrogated. And those are not Heretics. The Quarians sure didn't have the advantage there.

It's the Middle East. We won't launch rockets if you stop encroaching. Okay we'll stop encroaching if you won't launch rockets. This is the way it's been going on for the past 60 years. The negotiations are stalled [/quote]

Quarians who have been stealing body parts of geth and shipping them off to loony Admirals and quarians who have attacked them every time. So now it's the geth fault for being preemptive against an established threat?

Don't use real-world examples. Unless the people in the Middle East turn out to be a race of sentient machines, that isn't valid.


[quote]

The geth did trust Legion; when he returned and spoke to the Consensus they believed him. Tali was only really made an Admiral for show and it's pretty obvious none of the Admirals really care for her opinion; Gerrel even tries to kill her without hesistation. [/quote]
[quote]
Motive and evidence? This implies murder. There is no evidence of this. I never saw Gerrel try to kill Tali without hesitation. Yes she was made Admiral for show IN SOME GAMES, but in some games she is dead, and in others she is exiled. Her being admiral is not canon.

Legion's existence after the Suicide Mission or even during the Suicide Mission is not canon either.

[quote]The quarians attacked the geth before the Reapers even invaded. So they did not panic and attack the geth due to the Reapers appearing.[/quote]

Right, because they could win and at the rate things were going it would have been game over.[/quote]


Um, firing on a non-hostile ship with her in it when she yells at them to stop and he completely ignores it?

Yet it wasn't and even numerous warnings about the Reaper they still went and stupidly picked a fight.


[quote]

Rannoch; Oh what the hell would the quarians done with it even if they had gotten it back? Sit and farm for a week before being devoured by Reapers? Defenses mean squat when you die from one bullet wound and the Reapers would most likely just bomb the whole planet since quarians are fairly useless fighters. They lasted three centuries without Rannoch; I'm pretty sure  they can last a few more weeks without causing more unnessecry deaths over their planet obsession.[/quote]
[quote]
No, there were only 17 million, and that is not a high priority target. That is about a metropolitan area. The reapers have larger planets to harvest. The would have gotten their live ships out of the fleet, and their heavy fleet main fleet would have been left. They finally had the advantage with Xen's weapon and used it. And yes that is the only reason they attacked. Otherwise an attack would have been hopeless. Payback is a b****.

I thing the Geth have behaved equally as ass hattedly as the Quarians. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I remember Eden Prime, Noveria, Feros, Therum, Virmire, Ilos, The Citadel, and several other worlds where I found humans that were left on dragon's teeth brought there by the Geth.

I encouraged the Quarians to take back their home world, so why would I be alarmed about them doing it? "Good luck in your war!" I blew up the Heretics. Legion was dead, and so there were no peace negotiations. I told Gerrel to counterattack, then told Gerrel to give me a heads up the next time. Geth VI took a knife in the back and three slugs. And the Quarian fleet turned the Geth into scrap metal. 

No one was sad about it among all the races you have on your ship. No one missed the Geth except for EDI. That is a pretty sad endorsement for the Geth.

[/quote]

Payback? For what, the geth kicking their asses in self-defense? Or Xen making a weapon which bascially makes them have seizures? That crap is illegal on Organics, but it's a-okay on synthetics simply because they think differently from us?

Heretics. Don't judge humanity on Cerberus deeds.

What, so your canon is now the only canon that matters and all others are irrelevant?

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 12 juin 2013 - 12:10 .

[Erez Kristal]

Kiwi you write a nice and long text wall about why the geth are such a peace faring race of death machines, that are simply misunderstood...

You are ignoring all the death the geth have brought upon the galaxy and focusing only on the tales they decided to tell you. i could have told you i am actually superman behind my pretty hanar suit but that wont make it true.

It will be foolish to trust what legion or any other geth tells you when so many human colonies graves are still fresh.

Working with the enemy against another enemy is a sound tactic. but it takes more than that to make this enemy your friend. stopping killing your organics is a good start.

[KiwiQuiche]

erezike wrote...

Kiwi you write a nice and long text wall about why the geth are such a peace faring race of death machines, that are simply misunderstood...

You are ignoring all the death the geth have brought upon the galaxy and focusing only on the tales they decided to tell you. i could have told you i am actually superman behind my pretty hanar suit but that wont make it true.

It will be foolish to trust what legion or any other geth tells you when so many human colonies graves are still fresh.

Working with the enemy against another enemy is a sound tactic. but it takes more than that to make this enemy your friend. stopping killing your organics is a good start.

I am not ignoring it; it's just the geth have valid reasons for it as well as their current hostile attitude.

But feel free to assume you know what I am thinking.

[nos_astra]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
I am not ignoring it; it's just the geth have valid reasons for it as well as their current hostile attitude.

So have the quarians. 

[shodiswe]

erezike wrote...

The matter other the geth being alive is a matter of philosophical debate as was seen between chief engineer adams and the cute french doctor.
Some people in bioware may claim they are alive. but this go much further than their opinions on the matter. bioware also think the ending was good...

Role playing games demands that you fill in the blanks many times. so sure there are no clear evidence of conspiracy. no one in the game tells you this happen that way. and even if they did, should you take their word for it? you can only judge what you see, you can only measure the facts that do you do know.

All that you claimed above are facts that you know, cerberus, salarian, asari, quarrian and krogan. you know whats going on. but our shepard is busy dealing with the reapers he has no time to educate others about what is right or wrong. who is he to do so anyway?

the facts as we know them are. the geth are attacking the quarrian at every chance they get, the geth attacked the citadel and many other human colonies. the geth attack everyone who enters the quarrian former space. the geth spy and gather information on the council species. the geth builds their militaray forces to their maximum abilities. the geth allied themselves with the reapers two times. the geth are efficent in their killing. they kill babies, children, civilians. they only capture people in order to turn them into husks.

The geth have no morals of good and evil. they do what they deem as most efficent. and that is why they are so dangerous.

And yet Legion appeals to what's moraly right?

[shodiswe]

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
I am not ignoring it; it's just the geth have valid reasons for it as well as their current hostile attitude.

So have the quarians. 

The Quarians and their attidudes are the root of all hostile attitudes, the root of all evil if you will. They started it and keept it going without looking back or reconsidering their stance even when they were loosing and their whole peopel was getting wiped out. 300 years later they are no better.

I can't say they have much going for them as a species considering all we know.

[Kel Riever]

shodiswe wrote...

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
I am not ignoring it; it's just the geth have valid reasons for it as well as their current hostile attitude.

So have the quarians. 

The Quarians and their attidudes are the root of all hostile attitudes, the root of all evil if you will. They started it and keept it going without looking back or reconsidering their stance even when they were loosing and their whole peopel was getting wiped out. 300 years later they are no better.

I can't say they have much going for them as a species considering all we know.

People make up the absolutely craziest things.  Did you play Mass Effect 2 or 3 or are you just making stuff up?
You'll recall, if you did, that 'they looked back' because there's a big debate as to whether they should go to war with the Geth or not.  And, hmmmn, Shepard can even decide which side he/she supports.

Hyperbole has its place.  But at a certain point, you're headcannon is just not factual.  Which is fine.  But call it what it is.

[remydat]

Silver

You made a claim. The burden is on you to prove it. When I say something from the game I provide links to the youtube. It is not my job to do the research for you. And there is no comparison. I am not teying to kill anyone. If I were going to viciously murder someone like say the Quarians like to viciously murder Geth I would get more info.

If you claim Tali said something then provide a link. Once again I provide links when I claim someone said something. I am not taking you or anyone elses word for it. Go on youtube and find the scene like I do. And guilt means nothing. They voted against peace talks 3-2. If they were so guilty they would have talked to the Geth when Tali made the proposal.

Those ships entered Geth space. They hailed the Geth outside of Geth space and then when the Geth did not answer instead of walking away they entered Geth space. That is an act of war. You cannot enter the space of an enemy nation without permission. You have no right to simply enter anyways just because the Geth refused to answer. Iran cant send planes into US airspace just because the US did not answer. If the US does not answer, the correct thing for Iran to do is turn the f around.

And that passage is written from the perspective of organics. It is telling thw organic side of the story. Orrganica are not going to admit they sent spies. So again so me proof that the Geth agreed these were diplomatic ships. THE GETH NOT ORGANIC PROPAGANDA.

The law said AI should not exist. The Quarians feared the Geth because they were different than them. Thats racism. Quote me the definition of the word and explain ti me how it is not racist to try and kill something because the law says it should not exist?

[KaiserShep]

remydat wrote...
The law said AI should not exist. The Quarians feared the Geth because they were different than them. Thats racism. Quote me the definition of the word and explain ti me how it is not racist to try and kill something because the law says it should not exist?

The Quarians did not fear any differences in the geth. The notion itself makes no sense, because the Quarians designed them. What the Quarians DID fear, according to the actual story, was an impending uprising of the countless geth that began to show signs of self-awareness, since they figured that being used as tools for mundane tasks would be insufficient for a sentient being. A revolution was seen as inevitable, and that's why they tried to kill them. "Differences" are irrelevant. The Quarians thought they could preemptively strike against a geth revolution and end the war before it began. This was the gist of what Tali tells us about her people's history with the geth in ME1. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 12 juin 2013 - 03:23 .

[remydat]

Dunabar

The Quarians blowing up Geth or Heretic ships does not bother me because they are enemies. Just like the Geth blowing up organic ships does not bother me because they are enemies. You guys are the ones crying about ships being blown up in Geth space. If organics didnt want to be blown up in geth space then they should not have tried to kill the geth and they should not have laws that say the Grth should not exist.

The Quarians of today are war mongera like theit parents. Tali gave them an opportunity to talk peace with the Geth and all but Koris refused. They refused to talk because they had a weapon they thought would allow then to exterminate the Geth. Legion in ME2 makes it clear the Quarians attack everytime they think they can win. Tali admits in ME3 that once the weapon was built the Quarians could not pass up the chance for war.

So I will ask you what makes them any different than their ancestors. Their ancestors refused to talk to the Geth and opted to kill them instead. They refuse Talis proposal to talk to geth and opt to kill them instead. History repeats itself.

[remydat]

Kaiser,

If the Geth were Quarian, would the Quarians have feared them? A white racist does not fear a white man with a gun because he thinks that white man is like him and shares his ideals. But he will fear a black man even if he is unarmed because he considers that black man as different than him and hence he cannot be trusted to not want to hurt him.

At its core that is what racism is about. The Geth were targeted for extinction because organics decided that synthetic life was a threat. It was a threat not because of what it actually did but what orgamics decided it would do strictly because it was synthetic and hence different. The Geth never made any violent move against the Quarians. The Quarians decided they eventually would because the Geth were different.  

You disagree?  Fine.  What actual crime did the Geth commit that required their death?  What reason did the Quarians have to conclude the Geth would rebel? If the Geth were organic would the Quarians have tried to talk to them first to determine what they wanted before ordering their mass extermination? Be real.  They reached the conclusions they did because the geth were synthetic ie because of who the geth were and not because of what the Geth actually did. 

Modifié par remydat, 12 juin 2013 - 03:48 .

[Erez Kristal]

KaiserShep wrote...
 What the Quarians DID fear, according to the actual story, was an impending uprising of the countless geth that began to show signs of self-awareness, since they figured that being used as tools for mundane tasks would be insufficient for a sentient being. A revolution was seen as inevitable, and that's why they tried to kill them 

Shut them off and make repairs.
You cant kill a machine.
Its not alive.

Legion is the only non-hostile geth you know, because all the rest of them been trying to kill you the rest of the time.
The only things you know of legion are.
he spies on the galaxy and on shepard.
He tries to interface with edi multiplie times.
He spies on the flootila and wants to send the information to the geth fleet.

Legion is a spy. you cant trust what a spy say.

You can only see that despite him claiming the geth are non hostile. that the geth still dont make any efforts to pacify the quarrians or anyone else in the galaxy.

You still have geth who are attacking a human colony. and you still have geth who are attacking the quarrian on halestorm.

Also the geth are holding on to rannoch which is the only key in preventing the quarian extinction.

I know its easy to hate the quarrians because they are liars and thieves and worked against cerberus prior to mass effect 2. but at least they have some morale background. the geth are just efficent machines of death. use them then dump them.

[shodiswe]

erezike wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...
 What the Quarians DID fear, according to the actual story, was an impending uprising of the countless geth that began to show signs of self-awareness, since they figured that being used as tools for mundane tasks would be insufficient for a sentient being. A revolution was seen as inevitable, and that's why they tried to kill them 

Shut them off and make repairs.
You cant kill a machine.
Its not alive.

Legion is the only non-hostile geth you know, because all the rest of them been trying to kill you the rest of the time.
The only things you know of legion are.
he spies on the galaxy and on shepard.
He tries to interface with edi multiplie times.
He spies on the flootila and wants to send the information to the geth fleet.

Legion is a spy. you cant trust what a spy say.

You can only see that despite him claiming the geth are non hostile. that the geth still dont make any efforts to pacify the quarrians or anyone else in the galaxy.

You still have geth who are attacking a human colony. and you still have geth who are attacking the quarrian on halestorm.

Also the geth are holding on to rannoch which is the only key in preventing the quarian extinction.

I know its easy to hate the quarrians because they are liars and thieves and worked against cerberus prior to mass effect 2. but at least they have some morale background. the geth are just efficent machines of death. use them then dump them.

Legion's friends don't seem that hostile tbh. A whole room of Geth orimes in close Quarters and they don't attack, instead they offer their services. 
Call them a minority or whatever you like, but it's not just Legion.

[Erez Kristal]

shodiswe wrote...

Legion's friends don't seem that hostile tbh. A whole room of Geth orimes in close Quarters and they don't attack, instead they offer their services. 
Call them a minority or whatever you like, but it's not just Legion.

Thats because they need you at that point to take down the reapers...
on the contrary to what people here think, i believe the geth to be vastly intelligent.
Those geth had free will and they wanted to survive. assisting shepard commander was in their best intrest.
At that moment...

[remydat]

Whats funny is Legion is possibly the reason the Quarians almost defeated the Geth. The intell he wanted to share with the consensus was the experiments on live Geth that Rael was working on. The experiments Xen eventually used to develop her weapon. If Legion had not been convinced to not share that info by Shep the Geth would have had 6 months or more to study Rael's experiments instead of having no knowledge prior to the Quarian attack.

So yeah some great spy Legion is when he withheld the one piece of info most directly responsible for their potential extinction all because he trusted organics. Lot of good that trust got he and his people.

Why do people think Tali expresses guilt about no warning Legion about the attack. She pointed a gun to Legions head and wanted to blast him for trying to warn his people of her daddys work and then when her daddys work is used to exterminate them she remains silent.  This after she tells Legion that revealing it will result in the Geth going to war.  Legion basically does Tali a favor and commits treason by not revealing it and having the Geth wipe out the Quarians before they can develop this weapon and Tali repays him by doing nothing when the Quarians use that weapon to exterminate the Geth.  She could have warned him but refused.

So yeah thats how the Quarians roll.  Beg for mercy and then use your act of mercy to exterminate your people.

Modifié par remydat, 12 juin 2013 - 04:48 .

[shodiswe]

remydat wrote...

Whats funny is Legion is possibly the reason the Quarians almost defeated the Geth. The intell he wanted to share with the consensus was the experiments on live Geth that Rael was working on. The experiments Xen eventually used to develop her weapon. If Legion had not been convinced to not share that info by Shep the Geth would have had 6 months or more to study Rael's experiments instead of having no knowledge prior to the Quarian attack.

So yeah some great spy Legion is when he withheld the one piece of info most directly responsible for their potential extinction all because he trusted organics. Lot of good that trust got he and his people.

Why do people think Tali expresses guilt about no warning Legion about the attack. She pointed a gun to Legions head and wanted to blast him for trying to warn his people of her daddys work and then when her daddys work is used to exterminate them she remains silent.  This after she tells Legion that revealing it will result in the Geth going to war.  Legion basically does Tali a favor and commits treason by not revealing it and having the Geth wipe out the Quarians before they can develop this weapon and Tali repays him by doing nothing when the Quarians use that weapon to exterminate the Geth.  She could have warned him but refused.

So yeah thats how the Quarians roll.  Beg for mercy and then use your act of mercy to exterminate your people.

You're probably right about the Consensus reaction to the Quarians developing a new superweapon of unknown origin for use against the Geth alogn with several new types of collector based technology weapons.

According to Tali in ME2 the Geth would likely come out of the Veil and hunt them down if they learned about this. Legion is far too trusting for it's own good or for his people.

The thing makign this work is that they need eachother to fight the Reapers. Legion belive they will need organics and if he eventualy told his friends they might have held back for the sake of cooperation and "hope". Thoguh I don't thinl Legion ever told anyone if you convinced him not to. Least not until the attack happend and then it was pretty pointless.

Modifié par shodiswe, 12 juin 2013 - 04:58 .

[remydat]

Yeah the annoying thing is they never follow up on it. Tali and Shep both claim the Geth would come looking for war if they find out about the data but then if you let Legion upload the data nothing happens. So you are left to believe that either organics once again are overly paranoid or the game developers just couldn't be bothered to follow up on thier own story.

The frustrating thing is it would have been easy to work this into ME3. In ME3, if Legion does not share the info, everything happens as it already does. However, if you let Legion share the info then you could have the Geth be the ones to attack the Quarians before they could develop the weapon or show the weapon being completely ineffectual because the Geth are prepared for it. In this scenario the Quarians end up accepting Reaper aid or the Reapers use the war as a distraction to launch an attack that threatens both the Geth and Quarians.

[Erez Kristal]

remydat wrote...

Yeah the annoying thing is they never follow up on it. Tali and Shep both claim the Geth would come looking for war if they find out about the data but then if you let Legion upload the data nothing happens. So you are left to believe that either organics once again are overly paranoid or the game developers just couldn't be bothered to follow up on thier own story.

The frustrating thing is it would have been easy to work this into ME3. In ME3, if Legion does not share the info, everything happens as it already does. However, if you let Legion share the info then you could have the Geth be the ones to attack the Quarians before they could develop the weapon or show the weapon being completely ineffectual because the Geth are prepared for it. In this scenario the Quarians end up accepting Reaper aid or the Reapers use the war as a distraction to launch an attack that threatens both the Geth and Quarians.

Or maybe the geth decided to lure the quarrians making them think there is an instant win button, and then when all of the quarrian finally get to rannoch they will realize they were actually duped and all of them would die.
Oh wait.

The trap- 

Death - 

You can see in the death film. that the quarrian are no longer firing but are being destroyed by the geth. no compromise. these are machines. not sentinel beings with morale grounds.

Modifié par erezike, 12 juin 2013 - 05:27 .

[remydat]

Erezike,

Clearly you forgot to watch the whole scene



What I see in the above video is the Geth have stopped firing. Admiral Gherel admits they have stopped firing. Shep tells Tali to tell the Quarians to stand down. Tali tells them to stand down. Our good Admiral who has a hard on for killing Geth refuse and the Geth kill them once the code is uploaded.

So you are confused. The compromise is that when the Geth are defenseless and the Quarians are ordered to stand down, when they do, everyone lives, when they don't someone has to die.  People die because the Quarians refuse to stop trying to kill the Geth even when they have stopped firing and an Admiral tells them to stop. 

Why would the Geth stop firing on them when they were given the opportunity to stop and refused?

Modifié par remydat, 12 juin 2013 - 05:36 .

[Erez Kristal]

remydat wrote...

Erezike,

Clearly you forgot to watch the whole scene



What I see in the above video is the Geth have stopped firing. Admiral Gherel admits they have stopped firing. Shep tells Tali to tell the Quarians to stand down. Tali tells them to stand down. Our good Admiral who has a hard on for killing Geth refuse and the Geth kill them once the code is uploaded.

So you are confused. The compromise is that when the Geth are defenseless and the Quarians are ordered to stand down, when they do, everyone lives, when they don't someone has to die.  People die because the Quarians refuse to stop trying to kill the Geth even when they have stopped firing and an Admiral tells them to stop. 

Why would the Geth stop firing on them when they were given the opportunity to stop and refused?

So lets see the events in this movie.
Shepard : "tali see if you can make them break off the attack"
tali" this is admiral talizorah break off the attack.
Gerrel" Negative, now is the time to strike."
Shepard" sorry tali"

Hmm... so is that how it happened for you. tali that admiral daughter who has only proven herself as a failed commander. failed to convince the quarrian war hero admiral. 
Hmm.
I failed to see a struggle of convincing by the geth. 
Lets go back and see what trully happened. The quarrian were lured, the quarrian were destroyed.

[remydat]

Admiral Gherel - You did it Shepard. The Geth fleet has stopped firing. They are completely vulnerable.

Shepard: "tali see if you can make them break off the attack"

Taili:" this is admiral talizorah break off the attack.

Gerrel" Negative, now is the time to strike."

Shepard" sorry tali"

Sorry you missed the part where the Admiral says the Geth have stopped firing and are completely vulnerable. If the Admiral still wants to kill them and gets killed instead then thats called self defense. The Geth are under no obligation to not kill people who continue to fire at them.

Further, Legion specifically comes outside and talks to Shep and asks him to upload the code. Shep can refuse in which case the Geth die. If this were a trap, Legion could have stayed in the vehicle and uploaded the code. There was no reason for him to exit the vehicle or tell Shep about his desire to upload the code. He could have easily uploaded it in secret.  He does not because he wants Shep's approval which he would not care about if this was a trap.

Modifié par remydat, 12 juin 2013 - 06:03 .

[KaiserShep]

remydat wrote...
Further, Legion specifically comes outside and talks to Shep and asks him to upload the code. Shep can refuse in which case the Geth die. If this were a trap, Legion could have stayed in the vehicle and uploaded the code. There was no reason for him to exit the vehicle or tell Shep about his desire to upload the code. He could have easily uploaded it in secret.  He does not because he wants Shep's approval which he would not care about if this was a trap.

Actually, this is a good point. At this point, with the reaper dead, Legion technically had the upper hand and could have one it with none the wiser. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I was going to quote, but I don't feel like making the effort.

@ Kiwi: you made me laugh this morning. Stealing bodyparts? Really. I would feel no more guilty about experimenting on those parts than experimenting on a childhood toy. Geth are software. Legion told you this in the AI Core of the Normandy, and again on the Heretic station. I'm beginning to wonder if we played the same game.

And Legion was upset about the Quarians performing experiments on those parts. It's amazing to me they were able to activate into live Geth. It must have been that Prime they were able to reconstruct. So I ordered him not to send the data. For unit cohesion he didn't send it but said there would be a reckoning after the mission. He couldn't be "talked down", and I wasn't going to betray Tali. He didn't survive his tech assignment.

Your canon seems to be the only canon for the game as well. Everyone else seems "not to have tried" which I also find hilarious. Not everyone played a "Spacer/War Hero" and mindlessly chose the upper right on every conversation choice. Some people played a non-idealistic pragmatic Shepard. I'm guessing you'd hate them.

So the Quarians got some collector based tech. It's not like Tali didn't pick up any Collector based tech on the Collector Base. Those suits have more pockets than you think. I call that using their brains. Also that stuff was all over the Terminus. The Vorcha were using it. We fought the Collectors on Horizon and picked up some stuff. There was stuff on the Collector ship to scavenge. So she dropped them off when we made port somewhere? You know, send them FedEx to another pick up point for the Migrant Fleet. Smart.

@ Others: the attack was going to happen anyway. [sarcasm]Your choices mattered.[/sarcasm] This is why there is no canon to the game, and why there is no canon to the ending, and why there is not going to be a game import to ME4. Everyone's story is different. Everyone's canon is different. My canon ending is the Geth are dead in every single one. It doesn't matter what I did on Rannoch. They're dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. So are the Reapers. Yet in some games the reapers are alive and well. That's their canon ending. Some canons say that genocide by slushie and turning people into husks isn't murder because it can be reversed if one is willing to make the right choice.... don't ask... it's complicated... I'll let Seival explain the controlled synthesis canon.