1071 réponses à ce sujet

[Erez Kristal]

remydat wrote...

Admiral Gherel - You did it Shepard. The Geth fleet has stopped firing. They are completely vulnerable.

Shepard: "tali see if you can make them break off the attack"

Taili:" this is admiral talizorah break off the attack.

Gerrel" Negative, now is the time to strike."

Shepard" sorry tali"

Sorry you missed the part where the Admiral says the Geth have stopped firing and are completely vulnerable. If the Admiral still wants to kill them and gets killed instead then thats called self defense. The Geth are under no obligation to not kill people who continue to fire at them.

Further, Legion specifically comes outside and talks to Shep and asks him to upload the code. Shep can refuse in which case the Geth die. If this were a trap, Legion could have stayed in the vehicle and uploaded the code. There was no reason for him to exit the vehicle or tell Shep about his desire to upload the code. He could have easily uploaded it in secret.  He does not because he wants Shep's approval which he would not care about if this was a trap.

The first signal was a trap.
This time the geth vi or legion realized that the reapers would destroy them completely(since they seen what the reapers are like with the reapers code) and due to that they needed allies. they needed shepard to trust them,  admiral gerrel was fighting the geth and losing many men. he wasnt going to take the risk of the geth turning them self back on and firing killing all of the remaining quarrian.

Oh wait.

Modifié par erezike, 12 juin 2013 - 06:10 .

[KaiserShep]

Technically, if you can't get the fleets to rally together, the Quarians continue to try to destroy the geth if you permit them to get the upgrades. Presumably, the geth would not have destroyed the Quarians if they ceased aggression once the reaper destroyer was neutralized.

Think of it this way, you have an actual admiral on the ground telling you to stop. That's reason enough to hold fire.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

KaiserShep wrote...

remydat wrote...
Further, Legion specifically comes outside and talks to Shep and asks him to upload the code. Shep can refuse in which case the Geth die. If this were a trap, Legion could have stayed in the vehicle and uploaded the code. There was no reason for him to exit the vehicle or tell Shep about his desire to upload the code. He could have easily uploaded it in secret.  He does not because he wants Shep's approval which he would not care about if this was a trap.

Actually, this is a good point. At this point, with the reaper dead, Legion technically had the upper hand and could have one it with none the wiser. 

Actually this was part of the "Walters Box" scenario. Walters wanted you to make the choice so that you would have "feels" at the end and have "ethical problems" with Destroy. Maybe there was a "range" for the code. It should have required a hard wired upload. The Wi-Fi from the Reaper was down. Shepard didn't have to paint the target on foot either. That was asinine. I find it amazing that the thanix misses Shepard by a few feet and hits the rocks around her yet she suffers no ill effects from it, then. Yet Harbinger's thanix at the end blows away Shepard's armor. Amazing! It would have been far more effective to have a more than one team paint the target. But such is a boss fight, ridiculous as it was.

[Erez Kristal]

KaiserShep wrote...

Technically, if you can't get the fleets to rally together, the Quarians continue to try to destroy the geth if you permit them to get the upgrades. Presumably, the geth would not have destroyed the Quarians if they ceased aggression once the reaper destroyer was neutralized.

Think of it this way, you have an actual admiral on the ground telling you to stop. That's reason enough to hold fire.

tali was never really regarded as admiral...
she wasnt even given a ship...

She was a fancy place holder nothing more.

And the veteran gerrel had no way of knowning that the geth will turn on and shoot as fast as they did.
he thought he would have time to destroy them before they turned back on.


 A bad way to go.

[KaiserShep]

Well I agree that the Rannoch arc was not very well written. The entire sequence should have simply been trying to escape the reaper while the Normandy/fleets target it. Heck, I would've accepted the laser bit more if it was being done from the hovercraft.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

KaiserShep wrote...

Technically, if you can't get the fleets to rally together, the Quarians continue to try to destroy the geth if you permit them to get the upgrades. Presumably, the geth would not have destroyed the Quarians if they ceased aggression once the reaper destroyer was neutralized.

Think of it this way, you have an actual admiral on the ground telling you to stop. That's reason enough to hold fire.

But Tali is not an Admiral in all games. In some games she is an exile. And she's the lowest ranked Admiral. Gerrel is probably the highest ranked Admiral. Gerrel outranks Raan as well. This is heart of the issue. You have a one star general being over ruled by a four star general.

And rallying the fleet only works if you have Legion and Tali, and have met certain other conditions (if Tali is not exiled, or if she is you destroyed the Heretics). If you have Geth VI or Raan are present, you can't rally the fleet no matter what, and since most players blindly played "paragon" this skewed the results in favor of the geth just like with curing the genophage with Wreav.

Then again you don't really need the Geth to get the same crappy ending anyway, unless the Geth give you feels.

[Kel Riever]

KaiserShep wrote...

Well I agree that the Rannoch arc was not very well written. The entire sequence should have simply been trying to escape the reaper while the Normandy/fleets target it. Heck, I would've accepted the laser bit more if it was being done from the hovercraft.

As much as I like Rannoch, you are correct.  Personally I blame forcing the Quarian war regardless of what you did in ME2.  It just comes off as nonsense if they were going to launch the whole war anyway.  As the OP is pointing out, the whole war is really forced on the game.  Then, as much as Legion is a cool character, the splitting of the Geth into two factions doesn't really make an incredible amount of sense.  The Geth/Quarian arc just becomes befuddled in ME2 and worse in ME3 until (well if you play your cards correctly) BOOM!  Legion 'ascends' and there is peace between the two.   Hammy.

It didn't bother me though, because, well, it wasn't as if a Glowjob showed up and forced me to accept its logic for the entire end of the series.....  We do, after all, always need to reference it to Starbrat for comparisson to REALLY bad.

[remydat]

erezike wrote...

The first signal was a trap.
This time the geth vi or legion realized that the reapers would destroy them completely(since they seen what the reapers are like with the reapers code) and due to that they needed allies. they needed shepard to trust them,  admiral gerrel was fighting the geth and losing many men. he wasnt going to take the risk of the geth turning them self back on and firing killing all of the remaining quarrian.

Oh wait.

Except once again, if it was a trap, Legion has no reason to come outside and tell Shep he wants to upload the code.



In the above video Shep tells him to stand down.  Tali and Admiral Koris say Shepard speaks with their authority.  Gherel doesn't give a f**k.  He says we can win this war now.  The decision for Gherel was always about him thinking they can wipe out the Geth.  It is only when Shep tells Gherel the Geth are about to come online and wipe them out ie they have Reaper Code that Gherel stops.  

This whole time when he thought he could win, he refused peace, he refused discussion, he refuses to listen to Shep and 2 Admirals.  The only thing that changed is he now knows he has no way of winning because the Geth with RC can destroy them.  So he gives up.  He gives up not because the Geth have promised him anything.  Not because he thinks the Geth suddenly want peace.  He gives up because HE KNOWS HE CAN"T WIN SO WHAT ELSE CAN HE DO?

So sorry, in the videos where the Geth or Quarians die, it is because Gherel thinks he can win and so he refuses to stop firing.  In that scenario, the Geth die if they don't have the code and the Quarians die if they have the code because Gherel doesn't know they have the code.  The only time peace is possible is when Gherel learns he has no chance of winning and so decides he will finally listen to other people because he has no other choice except to die if he refuses.

[KaiserShep]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Technically, if you can't get the fleets to rally together, the Quarians continue to try to destroy the geth if you permit them to get the upgrades. Presumably, the geth would not have destroyed the Quarians if they ceased aggression once the reaper destroyer was neutralized.

Think of it this way, you have an actual admiral on the ground telling you to stop. That's reason enough to hold fire.

But Tali is not an Admiral in all games. In some games she is an exile. And she's the lowest ranked Admiral. Gerrel is probably the highest ranked Admiral. Gerrel outranks Raan as well. This is heart of the issue. You have a one star general being over ruled by a four star general.

And rallying the fleet only works if you have Legion and Tali, and have met certain other conditions (if Tali is not exiled, or if she is you destroyed the Heretics). If you have Geth VI or Raan are present, you can't rally the fleet no matter what, and since most players blindly played "paragon" this skewed the results in favor of the geth just like with curing the genophage with Wreav.

Then again you don't really need the Geth to get the same crappy ending anyway, unless the Geth give you feels.

I forgot about a lot of this. I haven't had Geth VI since the first time I went through a non-import play of ME3, and the more I think about it, the less I like they way this is executed. If Legion is dead or given to Cerberus, there should be no Geth VI at all. It should just be you disabling the ship and getting the hell out of there and I guess requiring shuttle evac or something. On Rannoch, once the reaper is destroyed, the geth should be automatically destroyed when they stop firing. You got Legion killed anyway, so what difference does it make at this point? And really, it doesn't seem to make sense that Shepard would just let any other geth that isn't Legion on the Normandy. 

I guess this also applies to the Rachni queen. If she's dead, and you destroyed the brood nest in ME1, simply have no rachni mission at all. I don't think the ravagers add so much to it that their absence would matter. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 12 juin 2013 - 06:41 .

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

But Tali is not an Admiral in all games. In some games she is an exile. And she's the lowest ranked Admiral. Gerrel is probably the highest ranked Admiral. Gerrel outranks Raan as well. This is heart of the issue. You have a one star general being over ruled by a four star general.

And rallying the fleet only works if you have Legion and Tali, and have met certain other conditions (if Tali is not exiled, or if she is you destroyed the Heretics). If you have Geth VI or Raan are present, you can't rally the fleet no matter what, and since most players blindly played "paragon" this skewed the results in favor of the geth just like with curing the genophage with Wreav.

Then again you don't really need the Geth to get the same crappy ending anyway, unless the Geth give you feels.

Whether Tali is an Admiral or not is irrelevant.  Gherel refuses to listen not because he outranks Tali.  He refuses to listen because he thinks he can win.  It would not matter who told him to stand down.  In the vid I just posted, Admiral Koris flat out says Shepard speaks with his authority and Gherel still refuses to listen.  The only thing that stops him is he learns of the reaper code and so he knows fighting is pointless because they can't win.

Gherel does not want peace.  He wants to exterminate the Geth once and for all.  Whatever god or higher power he believes in could have told him the Geth don't want to kill him and as long as he thinks he can win, he would have still tried to exterminate them.  His decision is based solely on whether he learns of the reaper code or not.

[remydat]

KaiserShep wrote...

I forgot about a lot of this. I haven't had Geth VI since the first time I went through a non-import play of ME3, and the more I think about it, the less I like they way this is executed. If Legion is dead or given to Cerberus, there should be no Geth VI at all. It should just be you disabling the ship and getting the hell out of there and I guess requiring shuttle evac or something. On Rannoch, once the reaper is destroyed, the geth should be automatically destroyed when they stop firing. You got Legion killed anyway, so what difference does it make at this point? And really, it doesn't seem to make sense that Shepard would just let any other geth that isn't Legion on the Normandy. 

I guess this also applies to the Rachni queen. If she's dead, and you destroyed the brood nest in ME1, simply have no rachni mission at all. I don't think the ravagers add so much to it that their absence would matter. 

You can't save the Quarians without the Geth VI as the story is set up.  When the long range signal is disabled on the Geth Dreadnought, the only way you learn that the short range signal exists is because Legion or Geth VI has to tell you.  Once he does tell you Raan freaks out and tells Xen to go warn Gherel immediately as the Quarians were preparing to take Rannoch under the incorrect assumption that the Reaper signal was disabled permanently.  They would have been slaughtered.

[remydat]

I will also point out that if this was some big trap then there is no reason for the Geth to not kill the Quarians after they decide to stop. There is nothing anyone can do to prevent the Geth from wiping the Quarians from the face of the galaxy once they get reaper code.

That is ultimately the difference between the two. When the Quarians think they can win, they always try and kill the Geth 100% of the time in the game. When the Geth know they can win because they have Reaper Code, they choose not to kill the Quarians once certain conditions are met namely the a**holes stop trying to kill them. Gherel refuses to listen to a living Tali and Koris. The Geth respect and honor the wishes of a dead Legion.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

But Tali is not an Admiral in all games. In some games she is an exile. And she's the lowest ranked Admiral. Gerrel is probably the highest ranked Admiral. Gerrel outranks Raan as well. This is heart of the issue. You have a one star general being over ruled by a four star general.

And rallying the fleet only works if you have Legion and Tali, and have met certain other conditions (if Tali is not exiled, or if she is you destroyed the Heretics). If you have Geth VI or Raan are present, you can't rally the fleet no matter what, and since most players blindly played "paragon" this skewed the results in favor of the geth just like with curing the genophage with Wreav.

Then again you don't really need the Geth to get the same crappy ending anyway, unless the Geth give you feels.

Whether Tali is an Admiral or not is irrelevant.  Gherel refuses to listen not because he outranks Tali.  He refuses to listen because he thinks he can win.  It would not matter who told him to stand down.  In the vid I just posted, Admiral Koris flat out says Shepard speaks with his authority and Gherel still refuses to listen.  The only thing that stops him is he learns of the reaper code and so he knows fighting is pointless because they can't win.

Gherel does not want peace.  He wants to exterminate the Geth once and for all.  Whatever god or higher power he believes in could have told him the Geth don't want to kill him and as long as he thinks he can win, he would have still tried to exterminate them.  His decision is based solely on whether he learns of the reaper code or not.

Where Tali makes her mistake is that she does not tell Gerrel the complete details about why he should break off the attack.

Tali: "This is Admiral Tali'Zorah. All units break off your attack."
Gerrel: "Belay that order. Continue the attack."

Tali gives up and walks back to Shepard. Some Admiral. Why the hell didn't she say: "Admiral, the Geth are uploading the Reaper Code and within seconds they will be smarter than they were when the reaper was controlling them. They will tear the fleet to shreds! They are open for peace if you break off the attack now!" (we know why: because a derp factor was needed)

You remember yourself. Even Geth VI mentioned that to her. "We are open for peace if the creators would stop firing." This is a brilliant Admiral Tali'Zorah. She walks back and dumps the entire thing in Shepard's lap. As does Admiral Raan.

Gerrel does not have the complete story. Let's really be fair about this. When Gerrel gets the whole story, he breaks off the attack. Any competent general would do that. Tali and Raan are totally incompetent, and even if Shepard manages to settle it Shepard should mention it to Gerrel afterward so they get demoted.

Instead you are so focused on painting Gerrel as an ass and an idiot when he is only pressing his advantage. Of course he wants the Geth gone for good. He wants his home world back for his people. Why aren't his people willing to give him the information necessary? Why? It's the same old Bioware quality writing derp we saw in the Introduction. There is simply no excuse for this. It is simply very very bad writing.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 12 juin 2013 - 07:13 .

[Dextro Milk]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Tali and Raan are totally incompetent.

Let's be really fair here. 

That is only because the writers always have Shepard decide every outcome. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Dextro Milk wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Tali and Raan are totally incompetent.

Let's be really fair here. 

That is only because the writers always have Shepard decide every outcome. 

True. And that's what makes Shepard a Mary Sue. Strategy? This isn't about strategy. It's about survival. We fight or we die.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 12 juin 2013 - 07:20 .

[remydat]

Shotgun,

In real life, if the Admiral who just saved your entire species from extinction told you to stand down, you would not just refuse her. If you are unsure why she gave the order, the sensible thing to do would be to ask. So Gherel is no less idiotic than Tali. Tali should have told him and Gherel should have asked for details. PERIOD.

The obvious reason Gherel was not told is because the writers wanted to reinforece the idea that the Quarians always try and kill the Geth if they think they can win. In ME2, we are told clearly by Legion the Quarians always attack when they think they can win. In ME3, the way the story is set up, the only way it makes sense for Gherel to refuse to stand down is if he thinks he can win. So in the non peace options, he can't be told about the Reaper Code otherwise it would be completely idiotic for him to continue to fire and for the rest of the Quarians to comply with his order.

So you are not being fair here.  The Geth have stopped firing.  The Quarians are told by the person that saved them all to stand down.  They refuse.   If the Geth with Reaper Code had decided to exterminate the Quarians even after they stopped firing, you would be going ape sh*t about how evil they are. 

Why didn't the Geth press their advantage and wipe out the Quarians when they had a chance?  Because they are not as fanatical as Gherel.  He is an extremist.  He refuses to listen even when the enemy has stopped firing and he is told by two Admirals to stop.  So unless you are going to argue the Geth should not have stood down when they knew they could win and should have killed the Quarians to press their advantage then you are employing a double standard. 

Modifié par remydat, 12 juin 2013 - 07:38 .

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Also, It looks like you continue to ignore what DenionSlayer and I said about Tali admitting that the quarians have pathological guilt over how their ancestors jumped to conclusions about the geth - something you keep glancing over. They already have said that the geth deserve to exist - they even said they feel the geth deserve Rannoch more then they do. The only reason they needed it back was because they would die otherwise.
They already have admitted this same thing - you just refuse to listen.
When you accept that both were equally faultible for this mess, then come and talk to me. As is, you refuse to acknowledge any other law but what you tell yourself.

The bold is why I've said it isn't about right or wrong. It is about survival. We fight or we die.  The Geth cut off negotiations because they did not reach consensus -- which doesn't simply mean we can't come to an agreement in geth talk on a yes or no issue, it means NO.

The Quarians developed a weapon that can take out the Geth. They decided to go all in. They were doing fine until the reaper landed and offered the Geth upgrades which the Geth took even though the Geth knew the reapers were going to kill them anyway.

So the choices for the Geth were:

* surrender to the Quarians, be enslaved by them, and fight against the reapers.
* side with the reapers, kill the Quarians and other organics, then die by the reapers.
* fight alone against the Quarians and die.

They chose to join the reapers, kill the Quarians, and die by the reapers. Then Shepard showed up. And unluckily for the Geth, when Svetlana showed up, they got turned into scrap metal.

Reaching a consensus wasn't about making a peace with the Quarians because the Quarians had already rejected the peacenegotiations to tali before attacking.
The part about Legion telling Tali the Geth were having trouble reachign a consensus was after the Quarians attacked, maybe even weeks after when they eventualy reached a consensus to say "YES" to the Reapers after the Quarians had killed billions of Geth living on the Dyson bubble.

Also, not reaching a consensus isn't "NO" it means they are undecided and either needs more time to think or it's something they won't be able to agree upon in the window of opportunity for any given decision.

I mean, why would the Geth be voting on Tali's and Legion's Peacenegotiations when the Quarian admiralty had already voted "NO" to it and then attacked the Geth? Until the Quarians show an interest in peace or talking there isn't much to talk or vote on.

This shows a huge gap in your reasoning Julia. Also this has been up on the table as a known fact for months even if some people do seem slow to the fact that Shepard is asking about their communications after the attack and Tali tells us about them. It's an ingame fact, if you would have had any credibility then it would be sinking like a rock right about now.

http://www.youtube.c...JWTBbJJE#t=570s 

Notice the "AND SINCE THE ATTACK?" in the conversation wheel?

So did the geth. If the geth were willing to negotiate, they would have let Legion maintain communications with Tali. They did not. Explain that.
The geth were not any more willing then the quarians to try for peace. That's the simple truth.

Also, According to Tali, Legion cut contatc before the invasion. She spicifically notes that their last transmission was before the quarians martched to war. Explain that.

And notice that "Since the attack" means has she been in contact with Legion since the quarians invaded? No. She has not been in contatc since before the quarians attacked. Explain that.


Sorry, but the gaps are in your logic.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...

Shotgun,

In real life, if the Admiral who just saved your entire species from extinction told you to stand down, you would not just refuse her. If you are unsure why she gave the order, the sensible thing to do would be to ask. So Gherel is no less idiotic than Tali. Tali should have told him and Gherel should have asked for details. PERIOD.

The obvious reason Gherel was not told is because the writers wanted to reinforece the idea that the Quarians always try and kill the Geth if they think they can win. In ME2, we are told clearly by Legion the Quarians always attack when they think they can win. In ME3, the way the story is set up, the only way it makes sense for Gherel to refuse to stand down is if he thinks he can win. So in the non peace options, he can't be told about the Reaper Code otherwise it would be completely idiotic for him to continue to fire and for the rest of the Quarians to comply with his order.

So you are not being fair here.  The Geth have stopped firing.  The Quarians are told by the person that saved them all to stand down.  They refuse.   If the Geth with Reaper Code had decided to exterminate the Quarians even after they stopped firing, you would be going ape sh*t about how evil they are. 

Why didn't the Geth press their advantage and wipe out the Quarians when they had a chance?  Because they are not as fanatical as Gherel.  He is an extremist.  He refuses to listen even when the enemy has stopped firing and he is told by two Admirals to stop.  So unless you are going to argue the Geth should not have stood down when they knew they could win and should have killed the Quarians to press their advantage then you are employing a double standard. 

I didn't hear Koris say that "Tali speaks with my authority." and then Gerrel refuse and I just watched the Youtube. So Gerrel overruling Tali, she should have filled him in, but it is a plot device to throw it back onto the player to make the decision. It is nothing more than that. Stop foaming at the mouth.

She did save your life sure, but it doesn't mean she knows the lay of the "battlefield" in space. She is on the ground. It is still her duty to pass along vital intel to you. I am being very fair. She is being neglectful in her duty. So if she passes along the intel Gerrel would stand down. When Shepard passes along the intel Gerrel stands down. Funny about that.

The Geth said they would make peace if the Quarians stopped firing. So if the Quarians stopped firing, and the Geth finished uploading the code. Then if the Geth turned around and opened up on the Quarians it would be called a double cross. It is a different situation.

The prior situation where the geth stopped firing occurred because of the loss of the reaper signal, not voluntarily, and they could come back online anytime, but Gerrel was not aware they were getting an upload. The second one where the Quarians stand down would have occurred voluntarily due to an agreement. Do you see the difference?

[remydat]

Legion did not stop communicating with Tali until after the attack. The vid proved this. People seem to confuse his returning to Geth space after Shep was arrested with him stopping communications. This is false. He likely returned to Geth space because council space wad not safe with Shep gone but he still talked to Tali via comms. Tali flat out says she talked to Legion after he returned to the consensus.

[remydat]

Shotgun,

Koris says Shep speaks with his authority in the peace option. Gherel still refuses to stand down. This is in the vid I posted. After Koris says this he says negative we can win this war. He only stops because after he ignores Koria, Shep then tells him about the reaper code.

The Geth stopped firing and Tali said stand down. What logical reason would she do this? Only an idiot refuses to fnd out. The only logical reason for Talis actions is that some sort of agreement was reached.

Post a vid where the Geth agreed to peace. They never say this. Shep and Tali assume they would. Again post a vid.  They simply assume the geth are not pricks like Gherel.  The geth never actually agree not to attack. That is why Gherel is a loon. Organics have to convince him not to kill people not shooting back while those same organics just assume the Geth will not without having to be told not to.  Basically they trust the Geth have more honor than Gherel and are proven right when they dont attack even when they can win.

Modifié par remydat, 12 juin 2013 - 08:42 .

[CynicalShep]

favoritehookeronthecitadel wrote...

We should all play a drinking game. Every time someone writes a post in this thread that's longer than 20 paragraphs, we take a shot.

You wouldn't take a single shot. Formatting is downright appaling at times.

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Also, It looks like you continue to ignore what DenionSlayer and I said about Tali admitting that the quarians have pathological guilt over how their ancestors jumped to conclusions about the geth - something you keep glancing over. They already have said that the geth deserve to exist - they even said they feel the geth deserve Rannoch more then they do. The only reason they needed it back was because they would die otherwise.
They already have admitted this same thing - you just refuse to listen.
When you accept that both were equally faultible for this mess, then come and talk to me. As is, you refuse to acknowledge any other law but what you tell yourself.

The bold is why I've said it isn't about right or wrong. It is about survival. We fight or we die.  The Geth cut off negotiations because they did not reach consensus -- which doesn't simply mean we can't come to an agreement in geth talk on a yes or no issue, it means NO.

The Quarians developed a weapon that can take out the Geth. They decided to go all in. They were doing fine until the reaper landed and offered the Geth upgrades which the Geth took even though the Geth knew the reapers were going to kill them anyway.

So the choices for the Geth were:

* surrender to the Quarians, be enslaved by them, and fight against the reapers.
* side with the reapers, kill the Quarians and other organics, then die by the reapers.
* fight alone against the Quarians and die.

They chose to join the reapers, kill the Quarians, and die by the reapers. Then Shepard showed up. And unluckily for the Geth, when Svetlana showed up, they got turned into scrap metal.

Reaching a consensus wasn't about making a peace with the Quarians because the Quarians had already rejected the peacenegotiations to tali before attacking.
The part about Legion telling Tali the Geth were having trouble reachign a consensus was after the Quarians attacked, maybe even weeks after when they eventualy reached a consensus to say "YES" to the Reapers after the Quarians had killed billions of Geth living on the Dyson bubble.

Also, not reaching a consensus isn't "NO" it means they are undecided and either needs more time to think or it's something they won't be able to agree upon in the window of opportunity for any given decision.

I mean, why would the Geth be voting on Tali's and Legion's Peacenegotiations when the Quarian admiralty had already voted "NO" to it and then attacked the Geth? Until the Quarians show an interest in peace or talking there isn't much to talk or vote on.

This shows a huge gap in your reasoning Julia. Also this has been up on the table as a known fact for months even if some people do seem slow to the fact that Shepard is asking about their communications after the attack and Tali tells us about them. It's an ingame fact, if you would have had any credibility then it would be sinking like a rock right about now.

http://www.youtube.c...JWTBbJJE#t=570s 

Notice the "AND SINCE THE ATTACK?" in the conversation wheel?

So did the geth. If the geth were willing to negotiate, they would have let Legion maintain communications with Tali. They did not. Explain that.
The geth were not any more willing then the quarians to try for peace. That's the simple truth.

Also, According to Tali, Legion cut contatc before the invasion. She spicifically notes that their last transmission was before the quarians martched to war. Explain that.

And notice that "Since the attack" means has she been in contact with Legion since the quarians invaded? No. She has not been in contatc since before the quarians attacked. Explain that.


Sorry, but the gaps are in your logic.

Legion maintaiend it until the Reapers had him arested and chained to that dreadnaughts antennaarray. Signal wen't up, Quarians started dying, Quarians asked for Shepards help.
17 days. Nothing in those conversations tells us otherwise, they keept commucating after the attack, then eventualy it stoped. Maybe jsut a few moments before the signal went live.

The Reapers have no interest in talking however.

There is no point where She says Legion cut communications before the attack.

Maybe it's different if you got a playthrough where Tali and Legion became rivals.

If you kill them off then they never talked.

What she says is that she doesn't know where Legions is right now. Which seems reasonable enough.
Bioware really should have put more effort in clarity on these things, perhaps in a codex or log book for people to read about if it gets to complicated and tedious for Voiceovers.

Modifié par shodiswe, 12 juin 2013 - 08:56 .

[silverexile17s]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Eh, I've been on BSN for quite a while and it tends to make you kinda sour and...hostile in many cases

They may have been intended as to be living- in terms of organs and whatnot, but they certainly begin to develop sentience. Well, being watched out be creepy...but the major difference is how humanoid the geth are (or quarianiod, whatever). If my gun did start chatting to be it would be weird, but geth are bipedial. They walk and can interact with the world. Therefore it is far easily to speak with them- geth could easilly talk before the War, the quarians just didn't anticpate the level of their thoughts.

The quarians may not have wanted it, but it is what happened. Quarians may have wanted tools, but their tools grew smart and grew their own minds. Therefore the quarians cannot just treat them as mechanical servants, because the geth grew into a sapient race. Yes, it may be understandable. But I do not approve and feel it was the wrong decision for the quarians to behave so violently to a new-born race of sapient beings.

The geth didn't understand what they were doing; their minds were still pretty much children when the Morning War began. So yes, they went overboard but they had a valid reason for it while the quarians didn't. And ultimately, the geth let the quarians leave. The quarians wouldn't have returned the gesture. That's the biggest difference.

In terms of their society; the geth have completely different minds and communication from current organics; the only who can really compare are Rachni. That is why the geth are so different witb their society. Quarians are still organics, they still think and behave like them and still communicate in the same manner.

Chances; geth would be willing to try peace, as Legion bluntly states in ME2. However Quarians have always been aggressive towards them. When quarians ever think they have an advantage, they attack 100% of the time. The geth leave quarians alone and don't pick fights with them. The quarians do so the geth have utterly no reason to take a chance with quarians who have proved themselves time and again as hostile.

The geth did trust Legion; when he returned and spoke to the Consensus they believed him. Tali was only really made an Admiral for show and it's pretty obvious none of the Admirals really care for her opinion; Gerrel even tries to kill her without hesistation. At least the geth stop acting like morons when Legion is freed.

The quarians attacked the geth before the Reapers even invaded. So they did not panic and attack the geth due to the Reapers appearing.

Rannoch; Oh what the hell would the quarians done with it even if they had gotten it back? Sit and farm for a week before being devoured by Reapers? Defenses mean squat when you die from one bullet wound and the Reapers would most likely just bomb the whole planet since quarians are fairly useless fighters. They lasted three centuries without Rannoch; I'm pretty sure  they can last a few more weeks without causing more unnessecry deaths over their planet obsession.

The geth didn't steal Rannoch; they were born on it, they have as much right to it as the quarians. If the geth invaded from space and took it- that would be stealing. What the geth did wasn't stealing.

The geth were under no obligation to explain themselves since they did nothing; even when Legion is bought to the Council/Admiralty board, everyone basically ignores what he says. So obviously even if the geth went and said "hey our cult-bros did this" organics wouldn't believe them.

What? The only reason the quarians attacked the geth was because of Xen's weapon; which basically caused the geth to have numerous seizures when it was used on them.
The geth just wanted to build their sphere; the quarians jumped in and attacked- they did it a few days before the Reapers showed up, so they didn't know the geth were Reaper allies so they can't fob that off. They were just starting stupid sh!t due to their pipe-dream despite all the warnings. At least the geth didn't go out and get in a punch up while an immient Reaper horde lurked in Dark Space.

Legion got captured and sealed up; he can't really go and ping Tali while like that. At least the geth were open to peace talks; but Quarians attacked 100% of the time, so why show them any faith when they never do?

That 'someone' is the gorram Shepard. You damn well listen to the woman who saved the fleet, gave you a new Admiral and warned your stupid people to not go to war due to a imminent Reaper Invasion-adivice they blithely ignored and went to war regardless. Someone who save another one of your Admirals, saved the Citadel, killed the Collectors, cured the genophage and forged a Turian/Krogan alliance. Shepard isn't some random vagrant, she has proven herself time and again that she is someone who knows her sh!t. Too bad the quarians seem to stupid to realize it. They even attempted to explode a damn ship with her and one of their Admirals on it and they don't have the brainwashed defense; the Admirals knew full well what was going on and had complete control over themselves.

The quarians broke off when the geth networked with the Reaper, which caused the geth to kick the sh!t out of the quarians. Otherwise the quarians would haved kill them all. In the Rannoch arc once you kill the Reaper, the geth stop attacking. Gerrel states it plainly. Then he goes all stupid and tries to rark up more crap due to his blood-hungry ways, it's only when Shepard, Koris and Tali tell him to fcuk up does he do so. Other wise he literally lets all his people die if you tell him to sod off. If the quarians had retreated, the geth would have let them be at this point.

If said could-be-killer was that widespread, wouldn't you try harder at not provoking them? Or befriend them? Seems foolish to deliberately anger and attack someone who is current neutral towards you, someone who is strong, more intelligent and lethal than you are and is all over the place. As you pointed out, there was nowhere you could go that they weren't there. So wouldn't it be better to leave them docile or at least try and communicate with them when you realize just how intelligent and self-aware they are, rather than attack them?

The quarians would have re-programmed the geth; they basically wanted to lobotmozie them and re-enslave the geth to do their jobs. I'm not going to endorse that and in many cases people would prefer death over being enslaved. In case of point with the end of Rannoch; I frankly regard Rannoch as an utter narrative mess, but I doubt most quarians leave by-gones as by-gones. Tali plainly states she would have killed all the geth if she was in Shepard's place, a cut quest had Xen trying to enslave the geth, Rann says how she's keeping the quarians and geth fleets apart due to the fact she knows full-well they aren't fully accepting of each other.  And just because you accept doesn't mean you like. Also the quarians are vastly out-gunned on the ground and Xen's weapon doesn't work on them anymore. Better to be nice to the heavily-armed synthetics who are letting you live on their world.

The Council still killed any A.I- as seen on Citadel, so obviously they were 'open arms for hugs' in regards to synthetics. The geth didn't want contact, they were still struggling with how to think and behave after kicking out the quarians. To their knowledge, trying to talk to people is the same as shooting them- as they spoke to the quarians who attacked. I'm not saying what they did was smart, I'm saying it's understandable due to their current exposure to organics. If the geth invited in the organics then shot them down, yeah I would say they were hostile, The geth didn't invite them though-the Council were intruding in the geths territory so the geth reacted with force. Considering that's all they have know, they have no obligation to open their doors to the Council.

The Council breeched their space; basically breaking and entering. If you were the geth, who at that point had had organics trying to kill you left right and centre, you would make them go away which the geth did.  The geth didn't understand diplomacy or tact; words only made their situation worse and bullets made the situation leave.The geth also kept their aggressive inside the Veil- this is very important, as they wouldn't harrass anyone who didn't sneak over their territory.

Just because you understand and accept something doesn't mean you approve or endorse it. That is my stance on the quarians actions; I understand it, yet I do not approve of it and wouldn't have done the same thing in their situation.

I've never claimed geth are superior- they just behave less stupid than the quarians.

Isn't that the truth.

Still, you have to understand that this is a race more advanced then us - to the quarians, a bipedal geth unit wasn't any different then an automated tool. Just a mobile one. Being "huminoid" wasn't even a blip on the quarian's radar. It's like how the androids in the "Aliens" movies are all made to look human - a comfort factor to avoid feeling "weirded out," but none of the attachment or association you would place on a living being. Esecntally, a crash-test dummy that could do anything you want, and be easily replaced.  At least, that was the intent when the geth were created.

Yes, it was jumping to conclusions to assume what the geth's choices or motivations were. They had justifiable concerns, but..... well, to me it's like Marvel's "X-Men." You can be rightly afraid of someone having superpowers being a danger, but there is a limit between being concerned, and overreacting. Then the other side overreacts out of fear that you will overreact, and it goes on and on. You're heart can be in the right place, yet you still can end up doing the worst thing possible if you let fear rule you.
That seems to be what happened with both the quarians and geth. The quarians had justifiable concerns on the geth, but they let that turn into fear & terror, which ran rampant. I think the geth picked this trait up too - they let fear of "what might be" rule them too, and wiped out most of the quarians as a result.
It seems to me that the cycle of organic/synthetic conflict is based more on mutual fear and distrust running away with people, instead of racial hatred.

But the very fact that the geth wounldn't understand the ramafacations of actions like killing, and therefore never stop, was what made the quarians fear them in the first place. So they at least had an actual reason for reacting, even though the reaction was too far.
think they both had justifiable concerns. But both let that become blind terror. The quarians had concerns based on the limitations they gave the geth, but as you said before, no concrete evidence that the geth would follow this prediction. Just that they might. Lacking any way to prove one way or another, and afraid that any interaction would provoke them, they just deicded to not risk it at all. I understand why they acted the way they did. However, the method they used could have been less.... harsh.
Then again, the same can be said of the geth killing everything in sight, so I think it all balances out. Also, I'm not sure that the quarians would or wouldn't have let them leave. After all, they're first responce to the geth was reprogram them rather then kill them. I don't really know how the quarians would have reacted had the geth simply pulled back from quarian space, or refused to kill civilians.

But the geth don't govern any different then the quarians do on a daily basis. The geth form consensis by polling responces from everyone. They don't act unless a majority agree to it.
If there was any difference, it would be that geth's consensis doesn't stem from a set of democracy-based laws. And even thougg the rachni share the geth's mental-interlinking and memory-sharing traits, they aren't comparible. Because the rachni are a hive-mind - A group lead by a single individual. The geth's group collective is many minds working together in teamwork, all sharing the responcibilities. Unlike a hive mind, there is no "leader" among the geth's group mind. All decide by group thinking, not by a rule of one. The quarians are mostly the same - they govern by polling responces from everyone. The only difference is that they take much, much longer then geth do to reach a consensis.

But the quarians think the same thing of the geth - after a fleet of them attacked the Citadel. They figure that if the geth were intrested in negotiating, they wouldn't have attacked the Citadel or seemingly sided with the Reapers three years ago. If the True Geth had at least even tried to plead for innocence, instead of just letting themselves get saddled with the Heretics crimes, it would have made a more convincing case to the quarians. As such, they haven't seen the geth do anything to endeer trust in negotiation either. Both sides failed to do what was neccessary to make peace a possibility.

But yet, they seemingly didn't put trust in his peace proposal. Otherwise, Legion wouldn't have been the only geth in contact with Tali - there surely would have been others. The bottom line was that neither side had taken any action to get the other to trust them, and nither side hadany faith in the other to make it work. Mutual trust is needed for this to work, and there wasn't any on either side, for either side.
Also, why did the geth on the Dreadnought still shoot at Shepard an co after Legion was released? Wouldn't they have been temporaraly freed when the signal was disrupted?

Also, this is actually incorrect. The first time you vist the Spectre Requsitions Office on the Citadel following the Mars mission, you get a newsletter from Spectre Intel, saying the quarians have statred purchasing bulk weapons and equipment. This is only just now happening when the Reapers hit Earth and Palaven. Meaning that they hadn't even started to retrofit their fleet for invasion when the Reapers attacked Earth and Palaven. And right before the Citadel Coup, Hackett says that the Alliance is only just now getting reports of something happening on the border of the Perseus Veil.  Meaning that the quarans attacked around the time of Priority: Tuchanka, at least 4-6 weeks after the Reapers invaded the galaxy.
So, basically - yes. The Reaper invasion was what spurned the quarians to re-take Rannoch.

Well, look at Rannoch. The name itself is ancent quarian for "walled garden." The rocky messas and plateus make a perfect natural defence - they can hide in the canyons and carve bunkers into the rockface. Not to mention that the geth have place emplacements all across Rannoch - jamming towers, anti-air cannons, bunkers, defensive emplacements, baes, even a planatary defence cannon. Rannoch is basically a fortress. Also, like i said before, Rannoch is the one world in the galaxy where the quarians won't die from one bullet - the entire reason they wanted Rannoch was because it was the one world where a suit rupture would not be a death sentance, as shown when Tali removes her mask on Rannoch's surface.
Also, the Reapers goal is to harvest, remember? We've already seen from the "choose the geth" ending if the Rannoch War that it was within the geth's capabilities to wipe out the quarians any time they wanted. Why did the Reapers not capatilize on this? They wouldn't care about geth casualties - they're proxies to them. The Reapers had ample means and oppertunity to kill the quarians off the moment they got control of the geth. Why didn't they?
They want to havrest every race. It's revelaed that all the races not harvested for the Sovergien-Class Reaper are made into Destroyers. It seems only one race per cycle gets the "honor" of being a Sovergien-Class Reaper. All others become Destroyers.
Now, it takes several million to create a Sovergin-Class Reaper. Destroyers are much smaller, so they would need considerably less. Mayby one or two million at most. The only race this would be impossible for is the drell, which only number at about 400,000 galaxy wide. After all, the Reapers have shown that they can glass planets over in seconds from orbit. So why haven't they done this to Irune (volus homeworld)? Or Thessia? Or Tuchanka? Or Heshtok (vorcha homeworld), or Dekunna (elcor homeworld), or Kajhe (hanar homworld)? They want them alive to be harvested, so they engage in costly ground wars. In space, it would be easy to pick the quarians off, because they can't even stand up to the Reaper-upgraded geth in their ramshackle ships, let alone the Reapers themselves. Having a world is key to your survuval. And the quarians don't have one -and they need one to have any hope.

They were not living beings. They were not made as anything but tools. They were given no more right to Rannoch, then any of the tools you may have do to your house. If the geth had been intentionally created sentiant, then yes they would have an equal right. But they were not. They took Rannoch in the aftermath of a bloody genocidal war between two forces. Even Legion himself says that Rannoch belongs to the quarians.

"We accept the creators hate. We hold their world of origin, yet we are only caretakers for it." - Legion, ME2.

Legion says the geth are only cartakers for the quarian worlds. The geth themselves make no claim of right to Rannoch or any of the quarians worlds, saying they only watch over them. They fully admit that Rannoch is not their property, nor ever was if Legion is to be believed.

Then how else are the quarians supposed to react to what the Heretics did, if they are never made aware of the fact that it was two seperate factions? You can't claim for peace when one side has the reputaion of genocial maniacs serving under the Reapers, for going on three years. If the geth wanted peace, then they were under as much an obligation to explain themselves as the quarains were to explain Rael'Zorah's actions. If the quarians are obligated to repent for and explain the actions Rael'Zorah and likely Daro'Xen took against live geth, the geth are obligated to repent for and explain the actions of the Heretics. If either side wants to try for peace, they both are obligated to give justifiable reasons for the other to want to trust them. Both sides must be obligated to give grounds for trust if the other is to take it seriously. Nither side did, so nither side made any headway in the "negotiation" department.

As I stated before, Spectre Intel says the quarians had only just started to purhcase the materials to retrofit their fleet when the Reapers attacked Earth and Palaven. And Admiral Hackett says that the Alliance only just started getting reports of trouble on the geth border when Shepard finished Priority: Tuchanka, meaning it happened at least a few days prior to that - when Shepard was on Tuchanka curing the genophage. In other words - the quarians indaved 4-6 weeks after the Reapers invaded the galaxy.
And everyone, quarians included, think the geth already have gotten in a punch-up with someone -- the Council and Alliance, ever since three years ago. They think the geth have been Reaper allies all along.

If the geth were open to peace talks, Legion wouldn't have been locked up in the first place - he would have been supported by other geth. It can't be concidence that Legion was the only geth that ever got in contact with Tali - if others wanted it, they would have tried it. Instead, they severed all communciation. Nither side had any intent of doing what was needed to make this work.

But it was becuse of that advice that they invaded to begin with. Remember what Gerrel said:
Tali- "We might need that fleet to fight the Reapers, Admiral."
Gerrel - "Then we need a world to shelter our noncombatants on while we do it!"
That was the mentality of the war - that without a world, they will all die. Also, the quarians are pretty insular - unless it pertains to the geth, they don't give a damn about who cured what, or who aligened with who. As far as the quarians are concerned, Shepard is a consultant on how to fight the geth and Reapers. Nothing else. It isn't until after the rescue mission for Koris, and saving the liveships by disabling the geth fighter's Server, that Shepard gains trust among the quarians.
And again, this entire time, the quarians have thought the geth were the evil genocidal monsters that everyone saw attack the Citadel. Being told out of the blue that this is incorrect with no proof of it yet is going to me met wiyth secptisim.  After all, trust and faith are in short demand nowadays. You have to prove yourself in the here and now to get any kind of respect. I mean, Wrex holds the war effort hostage for a genophage cure, despite all the trust you and he have. The Council even now need you to save them again before they commit to your war effort. The hanar need you to save their wold before they commit to you. Your reputation means sh*t to the turians, krogan, asari, salarians, volus, hanar, elcor, and vorcha. You have to run yourself ramapnt to get the trust of even your friends, like Ashley/Kaiden. Hell, even Legion doesn't give you full trust anymore because of you're "employment" with the quarians. Why would the quarians be any different then the rest of the galaxy when it comes to trusting you?
And how was attacking the Dreadnought any different then when Hackett attacked Sovergien when it was right on top of you outside the Citadel Tower. Hackett almost killed you too in that fight. No different then Gerrel, and for the same reasons - one person isn't worth millions. Gerrel decided not to gamble his race on one person.
And, I don't know if you realize, but the quarians have a bit of a problem putting trust in others if they don't think it's a sure thing.

Well, they think the geth would have killed the sh*t out of the entire galaxy at the Battle of the Citadel. They think the geth are monsters. And the geth pause in their attack because of the downgrade in processing power. They do recover. Even the Codex states that if you don't give the geth the code, that they "put up a tireless defense" and that the final fight is "nowhere near one-sided" indicating that even without the code, the geth don't just role over and die.
Also, this is because he thinks the geth are monsters - he has Tali's accounts of the geth on the Citadel under Sovergien to give him that idea. He hasn't seen any geth but the Heretics. It's like how Garrus only saw krogan like Wreve all his life, then his opinion changed when he met Wrex. Gerrel has only seen the Heretics and the Reaper-geth. He hasn't seen any true geth to show him that the geth aren't monsters.
Also, if that was true, why did the geth obliterate the liveships? They could manuver their fighters to block incoming fire, but can't disable ships or shoot the combat-spicific ones? And if you give the geth the code and don't have the quarians stand down, thy "methodically wipe out the quarians," and do so "ruthlessly."
So again, they balance out pretty even.

Well, when they are everywhere, how can you not? And for all you know, it mght not even be anything you do. Someone else might do or say something. Or the geth might go off themselves. The quarians weren't willing to bet their entire race on a gambit. They were afraid that if left be, they would eventually react. Can't risk talking to them, can't risk letting them be.
The quarians don't make bets on something unless it's a sure thing. Especally when it comes to their entire race. You can't fault them for wanting to keep their families safe - even if they went about it the wrong way. Which they did.

Well, yes, in terms of narrative, Rannoch is a mess. That's an understatement. But the reason Tali would have just killed the geth is because they sided with the Reapers - she would have written them off as untrustworthy for that. Also, did Xen ever strike you as someone that ever gave a damn about synthetic rights anyway? To Xen, synthetics are just tools - nothing more or less. And after all that they have done to each-other, can you really blame Raan for wanting to keep the quarians and geth seperated? And the only reason the quaians were hostile was because of the image the Battle of the Citadel painted of the geth. Now that they know that the majority of geth weren't the ones responcible for that mess, they are more willing to find a common ground.

But this was after the geth killed their envoys. When the geth killed the envoys, the Council tightened down all decks - they blockaded the Perseus Veil in responce to the geth's actions, and any synthetic was now regarded as a potental threat, instead of just suspission. The geth's rejecting of their open hand was what made them tighten down on other synthetics. What the geth did is what caused those laws to become so strict - the geth themselves caused the increase in harshness of the laws, which brought about the deaths of those A.I.s. The geth's actions increased fear of synthetics.
Also, the geth had a chance to stop it by responding to hails. The only reason the Council sent ships in is because the geth didn't answer comms. And again, if you don't want to open your doors to someone, tell them so that they don't keep trying.

And the Council never actually breached geth space. They never even got close to the Perseus Veil. They olny ever got as close as the Far Rim, which is actually beyond the edge of the Veil. It's the geth's doorway, and you have to go there to reach the Veil. The geth built up around the Far Rim and expanded their space to inlcude the Rim. According to the relay map, it seems the only way into the Perseus Veil for organics is to pass through the Far Rim, so the geth built up forces at Haestrom accordingly. No other relay seesms to conncet to the Veil - at least, none accessible from organic space. So, the Council never actually did breach geth space - they got as far as the doorstep before being killed.
Also, they didn't keep agression in the Veil - the Heretics attacked the rest of the galaxy. Doesn't matter how long you keep a lid on it - if it get's out. it get's out. And look how the Heretics behaived.
Also, as stated by Legion, the geth actually do not have any form of agression - the Heretics attacked because they wanted Reaper Tech from Sovergein. Organics were just the tool to get what they wanted - they apperantly didn't feel agression at all. They didn't feel any form of emotional connection to organics.

In other words, you do accept and understand what the quarians did? But simply don't approve or endorse it?
That's how I feel about the geth. And at the very least, you can understand why the quarians did these things, even if you wouldn't have taken that path yourself, right? Same for me, regarding both races - I understand what they did, I accept what they did, but I don't approve of the things either one did to each-other.

I just think that nither one is more or less stupid then the other - they seem pretty dead even to me in that regard.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 juin 2013 - 10:24 .

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Also, It looks like you continue to ignore what DenionSlayer and I said about Tali admitting that the quarians have pathological guilt over how their ancestors jumped to conclusions about the geth - something you keep glancing over. They already have said that the geth deserve to exist - they even said they feel the geth deserve Rannoch more then they do. The only reason they needed it back was because they would die otherwise.
They already have admitted this same thing - you just refuse to listen.
When you accept that both were equally faultible for this mess, then come and talk to me. As is, you refuse to acknowledge any other law but what you tell yourself.

The bold is why I've said it isn't about right or wrong. It is about survival. We fight or we die.  The Geth cut off negotiations because they did not reach consensus -- which doesn't simply mean we can't come to an agreement in geth talk on a yes or no issue, it means NO.

The Quarians developed a weapon that can take out the Geth. They decided to go all in. They were doing fine until the reaper landed and offered the Geth upgrades which the Geth took even though the Geth knew the reapers were going to kill them anyway.

So the choices for the Geth were:

* surrender to the Quarians, be enslaved by them, and fight against the reapers.
* side with the reapers, kill the Quarians and other organics, then die by the reapers.
* fight alone against the Quarians and die.

They chose to join the reapers, kill the Quarians, and die by the reapers. Then Shepard showed up. And unluckily for the Geth, when Svetlana showed up, they got turned into scrap metal.

Reaching a consensus wasn't about making a peace with the Quarians because the Quarians had already rejected the peacenegotiations to tali before attacking.
The part about Legion telling Tali the Geth were having trouble reachign a consensus was after the Quarians attacked, maybe even weeks after when they eventualy reached a consensus to say "YES" to the Reapers after the Quarians had killed billions of Geth living on the Dyson bubble.

Also, not reaching a consensus isn't "NO" it means they are undecided and either needs more time to think or it's something they won't be able to agree upon in the window of opportunity for any given decision.

I mean, why would the Geth be voting on Tali's and Legion's Peacenegotiations when the Quarian admiralty had already voted "NO" to it and then attacked the Geth? Until the Quarians show an interest in peace or talking there isn't much to talk or vote on.

This shows a huge gap in your reasoning Julia. Also this has been up on the table as a known fact for months even if some people do seem slow to the fact that Shepard is asking about their communications after the attack and Tali tells us about them. It's an ingame fact, if you would have had any credibility then it would be sinking like a rock right about now.

http://www.youtube.c...JWTBbJJE#t=570s 

Notice the "AND SINCE THE ATTACK?" in the conversation wheel?

So did the geth. If the geth were willing to negotiate, they would have let Legion maintain communications with Tali. They did not. Explain that.
The geth were not any more willing then the quarians to try for peace. That's the simple truth.

Also, According to Tali, Legion cut contatc before the invasion. She spicifically notes that their last transmission was before the quarians martched to war. Explain that.

And notice that "Since the attack" means has she been in contact with Legion since the quarians invaded? No. She has not been in contatc since before the quarians attacked. Explain that.


Sorry, but the gaps are in your logic.

Legion maintaiend it until the Reapers had him arested and chained to that dreadnaughts antennaarray. Signal wen't up, Quarians started dying, Quarians asked for Shepards help.
17 days. Nothing in those conversations tells us otherwise, they keept commucating after the attack, then eventualy it stoped. Maybe jsut a few moments before the signal went live.

The Reapers have no interest in talking however.

There is no point where She says Legion cut communications before the attack.

Maybe it's different if you got a playthrough where Tali and Legion became rivals.

If you kill them off then they never talked.

What she says is that she doesn't know where Legions is right now. Which seems reasonable enough.
Bioware really should have put more effort in clarity on these things, perhaps in a codex or log book for people to read about if it gets to complicated and tedious for Voiceovers.

No, he didn't. Tali says she has not spoken to Legion since before the quarians even decided to invade the Veil. The geth didn't side with the reapers until after the seventeen day mark. Why would Legion have been chained up prior to that if the geth weren't in contact with the reapers? Are you saying that the Reapers and geth were together before the attack? Because that's the only way your scenerio makes sense.

Also, Tali says that talkiing was done in the first month following Shepard's arrest. And "just a few" mesages were sent between the two. And Legion broke conatct shortly after they tried advocating for peace, which was one of the first things Tali did after becoming an Admiral - which was right after she returned to the Migrnat Fleet. After all, her name had already been up for consideration since before the Suicide Mission. The timeframe indicates this was all within the first month or so following Shepard's arrest.

Nope. The invasion was seventeen days before the Reapers were involved. Unless you are suggesting the Reapers were involved prior to the Rannoch War?

Re-listen to the Conversation. She says that Legion broke contact after their last message, and that she tried re-contacting him, but to no avail. She tried to re-connect with Legion.

Nope. Have done full Paragon, Renagade, and mixed walkthroughs. The sceneario I listed came from the full Paragon verson. So, again wrong.

And I didn't kill them - where are you pulling this from?

And not knowing where Legion is is a direct result of not being able to contact him. Remember?

[remydat]

Honestly, how many times are Quarian supporters going to repeat the same false statements.  The video below makes it clear Tali talked to Legion after he returned to Geth space. 

http://www.youtube.c...JWTBbJJE#t=570s

9:30 of the vid - Tali says Legion returned to Geth space after Shep turned himself into the alliance. Most likely he did so because Council Space was not safe now that the only organic to ever really trust the Geth was put behind bars.

9:40 of the vid - Tali says clearly that her and Legion sent a few messages after he returned to Geth space. They were still communicating. So much so that after Legion returned to Geth space Tali still put forth a proposal for the Quarians to enter peace talks. Why? BECAUSE TALI AND LEGION WERE STILL COMMUNICATING.

9:49 - The dialogue wheel says AND SINCE THE ATTACK. AND SINCE THE ATTACK. Tali answers that SINCE THE ATTACK, she does not know where Legion is. She says that his last message which was SINCE THE ATTACK he said the Geth could not reach consensus. This message was SINCE THE ATTACK because the dialogue wheel says AND SINCE THE ATTACK.

Tali then speculates that Legion stopped communicating because he was fighting the Reaper takover or because he didn't want to give intell to an enemy. This has to be SINCE THE ATTACK because Tali thinks the Reaper takover was SINCE THE ATTACK not before. And Legion would only think Tali is an enemy SINCE THE ATTACK not before. So her conversation with Legion about the consensus has to be SINCE THE ATTACK as the dialogue wheel says it was and her speculation only makes sense if the conversation with Legion occurred SINCE THE ATTACK.

Legion's last message was SINCE THE ATTACK but before the Dyson bubble was destroyed. Thus, what Legion is referring to is that the Geth could not reach consensus on whether to ally with the Reapers. He does not tell Tali this because she is an ENEMY because her people have attacked the Geth just like Tali speculated. They have attacked the Geth using the same technlogy she begged Legion not to alert the Geth about. The reason this is his last message is because shortly after this conversation the Dyson bubble is destroyed and the Geth accept Reaper aid.  They were unable to reach consensus before but now that they are dumber, they accept the deal. At this point, Legion can't talk to Tali anymore because he is locked up being used to boost the Reaper signal.

At 10:05 of the vid, Tali admits she could have warned Legion about the attack.  How the hell could she warn him if they had stopped talking and Tali was unable to reach him?  Tali admitting she could have warned him is further proof they were communicating.

How anyone can listen to the above and claim Legion stopped talking to Tali before the invasion when Tali flat out says they talked after he returned to Geth space and SINCE THE ATACK  is beyond me.

Modifié par remydat, 12 juin 2013 - 11:20 .