1071 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver

You made a claim. The burden is on you to prove it. When I say something from the game I provide links to the youtube. It is not my job to do the research for you. And there is no comparison. I am not teying to kill anyone. If I were going to viciously murder someone like say the Quarians like to viciously murder Geth I would get more info.

If you claim Tali said something then provide a link. Once again I provide links when I claim someone said something. I am not taking you or anyone elses word for it. Go on youtube and find the scene like I do. And guilt means nothing. They voted against peace talks 3-2. If they were so guilty they would have talked to the Geth when Tali made the proposal.

Those ships entered Geth space. They hailed the Geth outside of Geth space and then when the Geth did not answer instead of walking away they entered Geth space. That is an act of war. You cannot enter the space of an enemy nation without permission. You have no right to simply enter anyways just because the Geth refused to answer. Iran cant send planes into US airspace just because the US did not answer. If the US does not answer, the correct thing for Iran to do is turn the f around.

And that passage is written from the perspective of organics. It is telling thw organic side of the story. Orrganica are not going to admit they sent spies. So again so me proof that the Geth agreed these were diplomatic ships. THE GETH NOT ORGANIC PROPAGANDA.

The law said AI should not exist. The Quarians feared the Geth because they were different than them. Thats racism. Quote me the definition of the word and explain ti me how it is not racist to try and kill something because the law says it should not exist?

Same as the geth, You are treating me the same way the organics treat the geth - demanding that I saddle the burden or proof of my claim. I'm the geth, you're the Council.:innocent:
Also, again, I stated that I didn't think that you could have missed the discription of the Heretic station. Not my fault  I wasn't aware you were so rusty at the second game.
And the geth likewise didn't need more info then "quarians = enemy" to ruthlessly butcher millions of unarmed civilians that weren't even participating in the war. So the geth are just as contrite as the quarians for the Morning War. Two to tango.

Also, you haven't provided links right now, have you? Follow your own dictation. And if the geth wanted anything to do with the peace proposal, they would have supported Legion. So once again, the geth are just as contrite. They were just as unwilling as the quarians to make peace. Both sides are obligated to show reasons to the other why they should be trusted.

Again, wrong. Geth space is the Perseus Veil. The Far Rim is the only entrance to the Veil from organic space.. The Far Rim is the doorstep of geth space - and the ships didn't even get that far. They knocked on the door - they did not get into geth terratory. Also, the geth are already guilty of an act of war by committing mass genocide of the quarian race - doesn't matter who started it. The millions of dead are a war crime on the geth's hands. And Rannoch is legally quarian territory, meaning that the Council has full legal right to invade the Veil and kill the geth. Instead, they tried diplomicy. The geth didn't even respond to hails. So the ships went to the border - the entrance to geth space  - the Far Rim.
Also, again, you use a completely false comparison. Iran didn't steal it's land from the U.S.
If a faction took land form the U.S, refused all communication, and killed anyone that neared the border, what do you think the U.S will do? Go in gun's blazing and assume hostility. Doesn't matter who started what conflcit - if you show hostile intent to others that have shown none to you, you are starting a completely new conflict. End of story.
The Council didn't do that - they tried diplomicy. Instead, the geth killed them. So the Council now does have the right to be sceptical of the geth's actions.

And AGAIN, that's the POINT - The organics that sent the envoys doccumented the intent of the envoys. Their own record of the intent of their own people, proving that they were sent out for peace and nothing else. Now you are trying to say that it's wrong to trust group's records of their own archived actions?  That's like saying you shouldn't trust a spanish dictionary that was made in spain to be in spanish!
And likewise, find me proof that says the geth didn't know. The ships didn't disguse their presance at all, and the geth (who have hyper-sensitive scanning tech, best in the entire galaxy) would never been able to not be aware of them being peace ships.

NO. Completely wrong. The Law says that A.I. must be regulated and monitored. There is nothing saying that A.I.s should not exist. There is a law banning their unlicenced creation, NOT their existance. Where the hell did you pull that from? If no A.I.s can ever exist, why does the Alliance have an A.I. at Gagarin Station? Why are there four companies licenced by the Citadel Council for monitored development of A.I.s? Like Synthetic Insights?
The law only became more harshly enfoced when the geth reactec harshly to diplomatic attempts. And the geth's own actions created that fear. You've got the chain of events backwards. It's no different then immagration laws other countries have on forginers - it's to monitor the inflow of "aliens" as they say (not sure if that term is derogatory or not, so somebody correct me if it is). They aren't illegal, and their aren't any laws saying they should all die or not exist. The laws say that they can't be rouge states or stand-alone unmonitored groups, and the geth are cited as the reason for this thinking, indicating that the law used to be strcitly observatory until the Morning War.
In other words, first rendidtion - observation and careful management. After the Morning War - systemic repressal and regulation. But nothing prohibiting their existance. Just their creation without permession. A law that became a harshly-regulated mandate after the Morning War. There was never any law saying synthetics "should not exist."
Where the hell did you even pull that from?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 juin 2013 - 11:13 .

[silverexile17s]

KaiserShep wrote...

Technically, if you can't get the fleets to rally together, the Quarians continue to try to destroy the geth if you permit them to get the upgrades. Presumably, the geth would not have destroyed the Quarians if they ceased aggression once the reaper destroyer was neutralized.

Think of it this way, you have an actual admiral on the ground telling you to stop. That's reason enough to hold fire.

"Actions speak louder then words" is the mentality behind Gerrel's choice. And thus far, the only actions the quarians witnessed the geth take were in brutal massicars on Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Therum, Virmire, and the Citadel.
Name one action the quarians, or anyone outside the Normandy Crew, witnessed the geth take that wasn't done under a Reaper.
That's why Gerrel doesn't stop for Tali - because to him, the geth's actions make them look like genocial monsters, and stopping is tantamount to insanity. It's like how Garrus always met korgan like Wreve, but changed his opinions once he met Wrex.  Gerrel has never met any geth that wasn't a Heretic or Reaper-controled, and doesn't even know that a split exists. Therefore, how the hell is he supposed to think standing down is a good idea, especally when Tali never gives any reason besides "break off the attack" with no reason given?

[remydat]

Silver,

The burden of proof is with you because you made the claim.  When I claimed Tali said something, I gave you links.  I am asking you to show me the same courtesy.  That is how a debate works.  I make a claim, I provide a link.  You make a claim and you expect me to go find the proof of it myself.  How is it you think that is fair?

A war was fought and the Geth won.  The Perseus Veil and Rannoch is now Geth terrority because they won.  That is what happens when you win a war.  The Quarians started a war and lost and in the process lost all their world sand colonies.

Modifié par remydat, 12 juin 2013 - 11:27 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

 SINCE he said the Geth could not reach consensus. This message was SINCE THE ATTACK because the dialogue wheel says AND SINCE THE ATTACK.

Tali then speculates that Legion stopped communicating because he was fighting the Reaper takover or because he didn't want to give intell to an enemy. This has to be SINCE THE ATTACK because Tali thinks the Reaper takover was SINCE THE ATTACK   THE ATTACKHonestly, how many times are Quarian supporters going to repeat the same false statements.  The video below makes it clear Tali talked to Legion after he returned to Geth space. 

http://www.youtube.c...JWTBbJJE#t=570s

9:30 of the vid - Tali says Legion returned to Geth space after Shep turned himself into the alliance. Most likely he did so because Council Space was not safe now that the only organic to ever really trust the Geth was put behind bars.

9:40 of the vid - Tali says clearly that her and Legion sent a few messages after he returned to Geth space. They were still communicating. So much so that after Legion returned to Geth space Tali still put forth a proposal for the Quarians to enter peace talks. Why? BECAUSE TALI AND LEGION WERE STILL COMMUNICATING.

9:49 - The dialogue wheel says AND SINCE THE ATTACK. AND SINCE THE ATTACK. Tali answers that SINCE THE ATTACK, she does not know where Legion is. She says that his last message which was [/i]not before. And Legion would only think Tali is an enemy SINCE THE ATTACK not before. So her conversation with Legion about the consensus has to be SINCE THE ATTACK as the dialogue wheel says it was and her speculation only makes sense if the conversation with Legion occurred SINCE THE ATTACK.

Legion's last message was SINCE THE ATTACK but before the Dyson bubble was destroyed. Thus, what Legion is referring to is that the Geth could not reach consensus on whether to ally with the Reapers. He does not tell Tali this because she is an ENEMY because her people have attacked the Geth just like Tali speculated. They have attacked the Geth using the same technlogy she begged Legion not to alert the Geth about. The reason this is his last message is because shortly after this conversation the Dyson bubble is destroyed and the Geth accept Reaper aid.  They were unable to reach consensus before but now that they are dumber, they accept the deal. At this point, Legion can't talk to Tali anymore because he is locked up being used to boost the Reaper signal.

At 10:05 of the vid, Tali admits she could have warned Legion about the attack.  How the hell could she warn him if they had stopped talking and Tali was unable to reach him?  Tali admitting she could have warned him is further proof they were communicating.

How anyone can listen to the above and claim Legion stopped talking to Tali before the invasion when Tali flat out says they talked after he returned to Geth space and SINCE THE ATACK  is beyond me.

Let me point out the flaws.

Tali said since the attack, meaning that Legion withdrew before the quarians ever attacked. Meaning that when he cut contact, it was before the invasion, and thus the attack had nothing to do with him cutting contact. Legion sent silent before the quarians ever made their move. Also, Tali says that she tried to contact him again - meaning that this was before the invasion was even voted on. Tali says she stopped trying to contact Legion when the quarians decided on war, because she didn't want to betray her people by tipping Legion off, even though doing so broke her heart. That means that this all happened before the war was deicded on by the quarians.
Explain that.

Also, Legion and Tali sent "only a few" messages according to Tali. Meaning that there was minimal contact between them. In fact, likely the only contact was before and immediately after the peace option was presented to the quarians.


All you've done is come across as ranting, because "since the attack" is just a lable on the Diolouge wheel. As shown above, that's ALL it is, so stop ranting.

How you can go off about this, when Tali says that Legion cut contact [i]before the attack is beyond all of us.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 juin 2013 - 11:26 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

The burden of proof is

Where's your responce? Something happen to your formatting?

Guess @Kiwi was right. Formatting's a pain to manage.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

The burden of proof is with you because you made the claim.  When I claimed Tali said something, I gave you links.  I am asking you to show me the same courtesy.  That is how a debate works.  I make a claim, I provide a link.  You make a claim and you expect me to go find the proof of it myself.  How is it you think that is fair?

You tell me, Councilor Remy. I'm just the poor geth that got jumped on for not elaborating enough. If only I had said more sooner, you wouldn't be jumping on me right now:innocent:

See? You aren't acting any different then the Council. And that's Still the same as the Council, because the Council had "links" too - the geth attacking their envoys, the geth attacking the Citadel.
You are acting no different then them.
Also, I gave you the transcript from the book - written by Drew Karpyshyn, lead writer of ME1 and ME2. Also, it's the Council's own records of the event, and the ships transmitted open broadcasts to the geth and the geth could easily scan the unconcealed ships to verify their sencerity.

Also, nope. The geth themselves say so.
"We accept the Creators hate. We hold their world of origin, though we are only caretakers for it." - Legion. ME2
The geth themselves state that Rannoch is not their property, and not their world, and never once make any claim to them. And because the geth are a rouge faction outside the Citadel Convertions,  and thus, not [/i]a legally reconized faction, they have [i]zero right to Rannoch vs the quarians. No more right then the tools in your garrage do to ownership of your house. Thus, the Council possesses the full legal right to kick the geth out if they wanted to.
So, when even the geth themselves openly confess that they don't own Rannoch, how does your arguement look?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 juin 2013 - 11:36 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Let me point out the flaws.

Tali said since the attack, meaning that Legion withdrew before the quarians ever attacked. Meaning that when he cut contact, it was before the invasion, and thus the attack had nothing to do with him cutting contact. Legion sent silent before the quarians ever made their move. Also, Tali says that she tried to contact him again - meaning that this was before the invasion was even voted on. Tali says she stopped trying to contact Legion when the quarians decided on war, because she didn't want to betray her people by tipping Legion off, even though doing so broke her heart. That means that this all happened before the war was deicded on by the quarians.
Explain that.

Also, Legion and Tali sent "only a few" messages according to Tali. Meaning that there was minimal contact between them. In fact, likely the only contact was before and immediately after the peace option was presented to the quarians.

All you've done is come across as ranting, because "since the attack" is just a lable on the Diolouge wheel. As shown above, that's ALL it is, so stop ranting.

How you can go off about this, when Tali says that Legion cut contact before the attack is beyond all of us.

You keep changing your story.  You claimed Legion did not cut contact.  Now you admit there was contact after he left.  You can't even keep your story straight.  Tali and Legion were in contact after he left.  That is a fact.  Tali admits she could have warned him which proves she could reach him after he left.  So no contact was cut.  He simply left enemy space because Shep was arrested.  You claim that he cut contact would be like saying Shep cut contact with the Citadel just because he leaves Citadel space when he can still communicate with them.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

You tell me, Councilor Remy. I'm just the poor geth that got jumped on for not elaborating enough. If only I had said more sooner, you wouldn't be jumping on me right now:innocent:

See? You aren't acting any different then the Council. And that's Still the same as the Council, because the Council had "links" too - the geth attacking their envoys, the geth attacking the Citadel.
You are acting no different then them.
Also, I gave you the transcript from the book - written by Drew Karpyshyn, lead writer of ME1 and ME2. Also, it's the Council's own records of the event, and the ships transmitted open broadcasts to the geth and the geth could easily scan the unconcealed ships to verify their sencerity.

Also, nope. The geth themselves say so.
"We accept the Creators hate. We hold their world of origin, though we are only caretakers for it." - Legion. ME2
The geth themselves state that Rannoch is not their property, and not their world, and never once make any claim to them. And because the geth are a rouge faction outside the Citadel Convertions,  and thus, not [/i]a legally reconized faction, they have [i]zero right to Rannoch vs the quarians. No more right then the tools in your garrage do to ownership of your house. Thus, the Council possesses the full legal right to kick the geth out if they wanted to.
So, when even the geth themselves openly confess that they don't own Rannoch, how does your arguement look?

You seem confused Silver.  We are engaged in a debate.  In a debate if you are going to claim something as fact, you need to provide proof.  Otherwise you can claim it is your opinion but I am under no obligation to accept it as fact until you provide proof. 

And I asked for proof that synthetics considered those diplomats as diplomats.  You provided me an organic account as if organics are not prone to lying.  Do you have a quote from a Geth saying they blew up these ships despite knowing they were diplomatic ships?  Yes or no?

The Geth right to Rannoch is the fact they won the war.  They can choose to be caretakers for Rannoch or they can choose to keep it.  That is their right because the Quarians viciously and brutally attacked them and got their a** kicked as a result.  All that quote by Legion tells me is that the Geth are willing to return Rannoch at some point.  But until such time that they decide to return it, it is their by right of conquest just like America was colonized by Europeans by right of conquest.  Just like most of the countries on planet earth were won by right of conquest.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Look guys I get it. It's a video game. In a video game the onus always falls on the player to make the decision. But from a writing standpoint, and from a character development standpoint it was horrible writing. It would never have happened that way in a book or in a movie.

In a book or in a movie, Tali would have informed Admiral Gerrel that Legion was uploading the Reaper Code and that the Geth were going to return to full strength on the first communication. It would not have gotten as far as it did.

They purposely made the NPCs do stupid things to put all of the burden of making the decisions on the player. Even the Geth make no effort to communicate with organics for peace other than this one platform named Legion. Every other Geth platform shoots at organics until those 100 Primes that Legion promises. Other than that they're all hostile. Show me one other instance where they're not. You can't because there aren't any. So what other conclusions are we to draw? They're a hostile race of synthetics.

But now suddenly the Geth want to help us. Let's see... 300 years they've been shooting at us, and now they want to help us. And the Quarians haven't been shooting at us (well maybe you were a bit upset about the dreadnought, but I just told Gerrel to give me a heads up the next time).... so I'm going to side with the Geth all of a sudden? Still that's 300 years vs. 1 incident or 2 if you count the Cerberus one for which they had damned good reason. I'll admit I have my prejudices. Everyone does no matter how much they might deny having them, they have them. It's just politically incorrect to admit having them, but psychologically true.

But this is a video game, not a movie or a book, and this is what separates them in the art department. The writing is not a solid, because they have to make the player feel like they are the ones saving either the Geth or the Quarians from extinction, whereas in reality it wouldn't have happened like that. Tali was remiss in her duties for not informing Gerrel about what Legion was doing. You know that and I know that. Don't pin the entire thing on Gerrel. You just want to do that, Remy. You've got this stick up your ass about Gerrel and the entire Quarian race. You're being a racist.

[Dunabar]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Look guys I get it. It's a video game. In a video game the onus always falls on the player to make the decision. But from a writing standpoint, and from a character development standpoint it was horrible writing. It would never have happened that way in a book or in a movie.

In a book or in a movie, Tali would have informed Admiral Gerrel that Legion was uploading the Reaper Code and that the Geth were going to return to full strength on the first communication. It would not have gotten as far as it did.

They purposely made the NPCs do stupid things to put all of the burden of making the decisions on the player. Even the Geth make no effort to communicate with organics for peace other than this one platform named Legion. Every other Geth platform shoots at organics until those 100 Primes that Legion promises. Other than that they're all hostile. Show me one other instance where they're not. You can't because there aren't any. So what other conclusions are we to draw? They're a hostile race of synthetics.

But now suddenly the Geth want to help us. Let's see... 300 years they've been shooting at us, and now they want to help us. And the Quarians haven't been shooting at us (well maybe you were a bit upset about the dreadnought, but I just told Gerrel to give me a heads up the next time).... so I'm going to side with the Geth all of a sudden? Still that's 300 years vs. 1 incident or 2 if you count the Cerberus one for which they had damned good reason. I'll admit I have my prejudices. Everyone does no matter how much they might deny having them, they have them. It's just politically incorrect to admit having them, but psychologically true.

But this is a video game, not a movie or a book, and this is what separates them in the art department. The writing is not a solid, because they have to make the player feel like they are the ones saving either the Geth or the Quarians from extinction, whereas in reality it wouldn't have happened like that. Tali was remiss in her duties for not informing Gerrel about what Legion was doing. You know that and I know that. Don't pin the entire thing on Gerrel. You just want to do that, Remy. You've got this stick up your ass about Gerrel and the entire Quarian race. You're being a racist.

+1:D

You made my day sH0tgUn jUliA.

[Dextro Milk]

Indeed.

I like you Shotgun Julia...

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Look guys I get it. It's a video game. In a video game the onus always falls on the player to make the decision. But from a writing standpoint, and from a character development standpoint it was horrible writing. It would never have happened that way in a book or in a movie.

In a book or in a movie, Tali would have informed Admiral Gerrel that Legion was uploading the Reaper Code and that the Geth were going to return to full strength on the first communication. It would not have gotten as far as it did.

They purposely made the NPCs do stupid things to put all of the burden of making the decisions on the player. Even the Geth make no effort to communicate with organics for peace other than this one platform named Legion. Every other Geth platform shoots at organics until those 100 Primes that Legion promises. Other than that they're all hostile. Show me one other instance where they're not. You can't because there aren't any. So what other conclusions are we to draw? They're a hostile race of synthetics.

But now suddenly the Geth want to help us. Let's see... 300 years they've been shooting at us, and now they want to help us. And the Quarians haven't been shooting at us (well maybe you were a bit upset about the dreadnought, but I just told Gerrel to give me a heads up the next time).... so I'm going to side with the Geth all of a sudden? Still that's 300 years vs. 1 incident or 2 if you count the Cerberus one for which they had damned good reason. I'll admit I have my prejudices. Everyone does no matter how much they might deny having them, they have them. It's just politically incorrect to admit having them, but psychologically true.

But this is a video game, not a movie or a book, and this is what separates them in the art department. The writing is not a solid, because they have to make the player feel like they are the ones saving either the Geth or the Quarians from extinction, whereas in reality it wouldn't have happened like that. Tali was remiss in her duties for not informing Gerrel about what Legion was doing. You know that and I know that. Don't pin the entire thing on Gerrel. You just want to do that, Remy. You've got this stick up your ass about Gerrel and the entire Quarian race. You're being a racist.

Basically you want to make an in-game argument against the Geth but when someone uses an in-game argument against the Quarians suddenly you switch to a meta argument ie the writing sucks.  Make up you mind Julia.  If the writing sucks then there is no point in debating things.  I can argue that same sh*tty writing was unfair to the Geth.  The Geth were protrayed as one dimensional crazed evil machines in ME1.  Sh*tty writing only seems to matter when it befalls your beloved Quarians. 

And no one blamed it all on Gherel.  My exact statement is that he was NO LESS idiotic than Tali.  They both were protrayed stupidly.  However, it also is not my fault the evil machines stand down without anyone having to tell them to when the enemy stops trying to kill them.  It is not my fault the noble and good Gherel and the majority of  Quarians refuse to stop firing when the enemy stops firing and when 3 people (Tali, Koris, and Shep) tell them too.  I didn't write the story.  Of course, you can't accept that truth so you have to blame it on bad writing while at the same time using that same bad writing to condemn the Geth.  Again, does bad writing only matter when it befalls your beloved Quarians?

And no I am not being racist. Let me tell you the difference between us Julia.  All have sinned and fallen short.  That includes the Geth and the Quarians.  I simply hold the Quarians more responsible because they were a civilization that existed for thousands of years.  They know the difference between right and wrong.  They developed morals and ethics over those thousands of years.  They brought life into this world and based on the fact they never intended to do so failed in their responsibility to teach that life how to live responsibly.  

Instead what the taught the Geth was that morals and ethics don't matter if you decide someone is an enemy.  They taught them that you can condemn a whole race to die whether they committed a crime or not.  That was the legacy they passed down to their creations and their creations were just better students at death and genocide than their teachers were.  The Geth were not born with a desire to kill.  They were born with a desire to understand their place in the world.  They were born with a desire to protect their Creators like Megara.  And then the Quarians systematically and completely destroyed those instincts by systematically trying to exterminate an entire race not because that race committed a crime but because the Quarians f**ked up and created life unintentionally.

Modifié par remydat, 13 juin 2013 - 02:43 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The writing was pretty bad all the way around. The entire story not just about the Rannoch campaign, but the story in general bothered me a lot over the past year. It bothered me a lot due to the way I role play games: I go too deep into a character sometimes. The derp factor got too bad and the emotional pain got too bad. As part of the recovery I've been writing fan fiction of ME in an AU setting. Shepard is not the Mary Sue she is in the game. Shepard is not a self-insert either, even though she is my canon Shepard. Shepard passed The Writer's Mary Sue Test with flying colors - "spare the rod, spoil the child, and you didn't spare the rod." Shepard holds the team together, but she is flawed. The characters are flawed. Liara is flawed. Shepard isn't always the hero, but inspires others. She's a pragmatist. Peace was made on Rannoch, but not like this. It is an entirely different story and has an entirely different outcome. And I made Gerrel a hawk, just because someone had to be. Koris remained a dove. Tali was young and naïve, and being used. Raan was disinterested. Now Xen always struck me as having potential. I've known researchers like her so I exploited that experience.

I'm going to make one comment. You do realize that Legion could have told the Geth to stand down. There is no need for Legion to use analog communication with the Geth in space. There is no need for Legion to make any sound component that could be heard by Shepard or Tali in his communication to them. It would be inefficient of him to do so. See? That is how I figured the Geth stand down after they get the code. It's not some kind of magic that happens up in space. It's communication. Computers multitask. Legion could be carrying on a conversation with you and giving orders to the fleet at the same time. He's an AI. Not as sophisticated as EDI but still an AI.

[remydat]

Shotgun,

And if that is what you said from the get go, I would largely agree with you. I don't have an issue with the meta argument. I have an issue with what I perceive as cherry picking when you want to apply that meta argument because again, if the issue for you is the writing then it should be applied to both sides equally in which case you can't fault either side for the poor writing.

Tali: I beg you do not do this.
Legion: We regret the deaths of the creators but we see no other alternative.



I was not saying Legion did not tell the Geth to stand down.  You said if the Geth attacked after the Quarians stood down, it would be seen as violating a peace agreement.  However, they would have violated no peace agreement because Tali nor Shep ever discuss such an agreement with Legion.  Legion's only statement to them prior to them convincing the Quarians to stand down was that he regrets the death of the creators.  So the story shows that Shep and Tali trust the Geth to act with honor and not fire on the Quarians if the Quarians cease fire.  The story shows that when the Geth stop firing, Tali, Koris, and Shep are unable to convince Gherel to stop firing. They can't trust Gherel to act with honor. They have to threaten him with the Reaper Code.  Again, that is not my fault that the story does this and if we are dicussing things from an in-game perspective and not from a meta perspective, I have every right to hold it against Gherel that the evil machines can be trusted more than he can to accept peace.

Modifié par remydat, 13 juin 2013 - 04:18 .

[DeinonSlayer]

StreetMagic wrote...

Geth shouldn't give a **** about living on a planet. Not to this extent at least.

They don't. Legion says so in as many words in ME2. I've only seen apologists scrambling to draw a moral equivalency claim otherwise.

[Phatose]

They don't give a damn about living on a planet. The war we see isn't actually a territory war at all. It's a war of Annihilation, first the Quarians attempting to annihilate the Geth, then the Geth under Reaper control trying to annihilate the Quarians. Rannoch is only indirectly relevant.

[Dextro Milk]

If I kicked someone out of their home (Regardless of self-defense or not), I wouldn't stay around for 300 years when I know they will return. Legion says the geth are basically waiting for the quarians to return in his own dialogue. I honestly don't think leaving Rannoch would have been as evil as some geth people seem to think. : /

[remydat]

The Geth care about having a place they can easily defend against organics that want to kill them. The Quarian systems offer that because the persesus veil naturally obstructs and disrupts communication and the ability for anyone to determine what is happening behind the veil, it is located on the fringes of organic space, and it comes with all the necessary infrastruture in place since the Geth helped build, harvest, and mine that infrastucture.

When people want to kill you, you don't go looking for another home when you have a perfectly good one already set up that you can easily defend. You don't trade a known quantity for the unknown. If you lived in a walled city that can withstand a seige, you don't open the gates and go looking for another walled city to go live that may or may not exist.

It's strategic suicide. The Quarian systems are perfectly designed for defense. Defense trumps accommodating your enemy.

[Dextro Milk]

Looks like those defenses sure helped in Mass Effect 3...

[remydat]

They held up for 300 years.  Not that they even failed.  The Geth did not lose because their home system was not defensible.  They lost because of their own incompetence and complacency. The Geth should have spent time researching more efficient weapons to slaughter organics like the Quarians spent time researching how to slaughter Geth.  That and they probably should have just exterminated the Quarians during the MW when they had the chance.  

That is what I find most ironic.  If the Geth were as evil as people like to claim, they would have spent 300 years building weapons of mass destruction and the Quarians would be extinct already.  Instead they devoted their enigineering abilities to bettering themselves via the Dyson Sphere.  Should have taken a page from Skynet's playbook.

Modifié par remydat, 13 juin 2013 - 05:41 .

[CynicalShep]

StreetMagic wrote...
 Geth shouldn't give a **** about living on a planet. Not to this extent at least.

And Legion shouldn't have a Shepard fetish like he does in ME2. Geth shouldn't compare Rannoch to cemeteries and clean it up just because. 1% of the Quarians shouldn't so easily defeat a force that annihilated the other 99%, especially since they fly on ships that barely hold together and Geth have upgraded. I half-understand "desperate" Geth accepting the Reaper upgrades when Quarians attacked. I don't understand them still installing them regardless of how you end the conflict. "Geth will achieve their own future" my foot. 
They should've added Legion as a LI and the transformation would have been complete.

[justafan]

remydat wrote...

They held up for 300 years.  Not that they even failed.  The Geth did not lose because their home system was not defensible.  They lost because of their own incompetence and complacency. The Geth should have spent time researching more efficient weapons to slaughter organics like the Quarians spent time researching how to slaughter Geth.  That and they probably should have just exterminated the Quarians during the MW when they had the chance.  

That is what I find most ironic.  If the Geth were as evil as people like to claim, they would have spent 300 years building weapons of mass destruction and the Quarians would be extinct already.  Instead they devoted their enigineering abilities to bettering themselves via the Dyson Sphere.  Should have taken a page from Skynet's playbook.

The Geth were more than capable of going full-on skynet.  They built a fleet strong enough to take on the Turians and made plenty of military advancements of their own.  After all, we have them to thank for thermal clips, and their dreadnought was more advanced than anything organics had (possibly short of Salarian stealth dreadnoughts).  The only thing stopping them was their own isolationism, not incompetance or complacency.

It is pretty clear the Geth were prepared for an organic attack, and had been preparing their defenses accordingly for the past 300 years.  The fact that they could not forsee the unconventional tactics used by the Quarians is understandable.

[CynicalShep]

StreetMagic wrote...

Yeah, the Shepard fetish annoys me too. Another cheap way to subconsciously manipulate players into thinking he's a bro. When you ask him about it, or ask him about how he uses the same gun as the original Geth rebel, he acts all coy.. and it's meant to be endearing. Everything to get you to side with the Geth amounts to emotional manipulation. Not storytelling per se.

It started all well. ME2 Geth were actually alien, Legion's fetish aside. Then EDI started dating Joker and Geth "achieved their own future". I'd really want to play a Sci-fi with aliens that aren't 90% human.