silverexile17s wrote...
Isn't that the truth.
Still, you have to understand that this is a race more advanced then us - to the quarians, a bipedal geth unit wasn't any different then an automated tool. Just a mobile one. Being "huminoid" wasn't even a blip on the quarian's radar. It's like how the androids in the "Aliens" movies are all made to look human - a comfort factor to avoid feeling "weirded out," but none of the attachment or association you would place on a living being. Esecntally, a crash-test dummy that could do anything you want, and be easily replaced. At least, that was the intent when the geth were created.
Yes, it was jumping to conclusions to assume what the geth's choices or motivations were. They had justifiable concerns, but..... well, to me it's like Marvel's "X-Men." You can be rightly afraid of someone having superpowers being a danger, but there is a limit between being concerned, and overreacting. Then the other side overreacts out of fear that you will overreact, and it goes on and on. You're heart can be in the right place, yet you still can end up doing the worst thing possible if you let fear rule you.
That seems to be what happened with both the quarians and geth. The quarians had justifiable concerns on the geth, but they let that turn into fear & terror, which ran rampant. I think the geth picked this trait up too - they let fear of "what might be" rule them too, and wiped out most of the quarians as a result.
It seems to me that the cycle of organic/synthetic conflict is based more on mutual fear and distrust running away with people, instead of racial hatred.
But the very fact that the geth wounldn't understand the ramafacations of actions like killing, and therefore never stop, was what made the quarians fear them in the first place. So they at least had an actual reason for reacting, even though the reaction was too far.
think they both had justifiable concerns. But both let that become blind terror. The quarians had concerns based on the limitations they gave the geth, but as you said before, no concrete evidence that the geth would follow this prediction. Just that they might. Lacking any way to prove one way or another, and afraid that any interaction would provoke them, they just deicded to not risk it at all. I understand why they acted the way they did. However, the method they used could have been less.... harsh.
Then again, the same can be said of the geth killing everything in sight, so I think it all balances out. Also, I'm not sure that the quarians would or wouldn't have let them leave. After all, they're first responce to the geth was reprogram them rather then kill them. I don't really know how the quarians would have reacted had the geth simply pulled back from quarian space, or refused to kill civilians.
But the geth don't govern any different then the quarians do on a daily basis. The geth form consensis by polling responces from everyone. They don't act unless a majority agree to it.
If there was any difference, it would be that geth's consensis doesn't stem from a set of democracy-based laws. And even thougg the rachni share the geth's mental-interlinking and memory-sharing traits, they aren't comparible. Because the rachni are a hive-mind - A group lead by a single individual. The geth's group collective is many minds working together in teamwork, all sharing the responcibilities. Unlike a hive mind, there is no "leader" among the geth's group mind. All decide by group thinking, not by a rule of one. The quarians are mostly the same - they govern by polling responces from everyone. The only difference is that they take much, much longer then geth do to reach a consensis.
But the quarians think the same thing of the geth - after a fleet of them attacked the Citadel. They figure that if the geth were intrested in negotiating, they wouldn't have attacked the Citadel or seemingly sided with the Reapers three years ago. If the True Geth had at least even tried to plead for innocence, instead of just letting themselves get saddled with the Heretics crimes, it would have made a more convincing case to the quarians. As such, they haven't seen the geth do anything to endeer trust in negotiation either. Both sides failed to do what was neccessary to make peace a possibility.
But yet, they seemingly didn't put trust in his peace proposal. Otherwise, Legion wouldn't have been the only geth in contact with Tali - there surely would have been others. The bottom line was that neither side had taken any action to get the other to trust them, and nither side hadany faith in the other to make it work. Mutual trust is needed for this to work, and there wasn't any on either side, for either side.
Also, why did the geth on the Dreadnought still shoot at Shepard an co after Legion was released? Wouldn't they have been temporaraly freed when the signal was disrupted?
Also, this is actually incorrect. The first time you vist the Spectre Requsitions Office on the Citadel following the Mars mission, you get a newsletter from Spectre Intel, saying the quarians have statred purchasing bulk weapons and equipment. This is only just now happening when the Reapers hit Earth and Palaven. Meaning that they hadn't even started to retrofit their fleet for invasion when the Reapers attacked Earth and Palaven. And right before the Citadel Coup, Hackett says that the Alliance is only just now getting reports of something happening on the border of the Perseus Veil. Meaning that the quarans attacked around the time of Priority: Tuchanka, at least 4-6 weeks after the Reapers invaded the galaxy.
So, basically - yes. The Reaper invasion was what spurned the quarians to re-take Rannoch.
Well, look at Rannoch. The name itself is ancent quarian for "walled garden." The rocky messas and plateus make a perfect natural defence - they can hide in the canyons and carve bunkers into the rockface. Not to mention that the geth have place emplacements all across Rannoch - jamming towers, anti-air cannons, bunkers, defensive emplacements, baes, even a planatary defence cannon. Rannoch is basically a fortress. Also, like i said before, Rannoch is the one world in the galaxy where the quarians won't die from one bullet - the entire reason they wanted Rannoch was because it was the one world where a suit rupture would not be a death sentance, as shown when Tali removes her mask on Rannoch's surface.
Also, the Reapers goal is to harvest, remember? We've already seen from the "choose the geth" ending if the Rannoch War that it was within the geth's capabilities to wipe out the quarians any time they wanted. Why did the Reapers not capatilize on this? They wouldn't care about geth casualties - they're proxies to them. The Reapers had ample means and oppertunity to kill the quarians off the moment they got control of the geth. Why didn't they?
They want to havrest every race. It's revelaed that all the races not harvested for the Sovergien-Class Reaper are made into Destroyers. It seems only one race per cycle gets the "honor" of being a Sovergien-Class Reaper. All others become Destroyers.
Now, it takes several million to create a Sovergin-Class Reaper. Destroyers are much smaller, so they would need considerably less. Mayby one or two million at most. The only race this would be impossible for is the drell, which only number at about 400,000 galaxy wide. After all, the Reapers have shown that they can glass planets over in seconds from orbit. So why haven't they done this to Irune (volus homeworld)? Or Thessia? Or Tuchanka? Or Heshtok (vorcha homeworld), or Dekunna (elcor homeworld), or Kajhe (hanar homworld)? They want them alive to be harvested, so they engage in costly ground wars. In space, it would be easy to pick the quarians off, because they can't even stand up to the Reaper-upgraded geth in their ramshackle ships, let alone the Reapers themselves. Having a world is key to your survuval. And the quarians don't have one -and they need one to have any hope.
They were not living beings. They were not made as anything but tools. They were given no more right to Rannoch, then any of the tools you may have do to your house. If the geth had been intentionally created sentiant, then yes they would have an equal right. But they were not. They took Rannoch in the aftermath of a bloody genocidal war between two forces. Even Legion himself says that Rannoch belongs to the quarians.
"We accept the creators hate. We hold their world of origin, yet we are only caretakers for it." - Legion, ME2.
Legion says the geth are only cartakers for the quarian worlds. The geth themselves make no claim of right to Rannoch or any of the quarians worlds, saying they only watch over them. They fully admit that Rannoch is not their property, nor ever was if Legion is to be believed.
Then how else are the quarians supposed to react to what the Heretics did, if they are never made aware of the fact that it was two seperate factions? You can't claim for peace when one side has the reputaion of genocial maniacs serving under the Reapers, for going on three years. If the geth wanted peace, then they were under as much an obligation to explain themselves as the quarains were to explain Rael'Zorah's actions. If the quarians are obligated to repent for and explain the actions Rael'Zorah and likely Daro'Xen took against live geth, the geth are obligated to repent for and explain the actions of the Heretics. If either side wants to try for peace, they both are obligated to give justifiable reasons for the other to want to trust them. Both sides must be obligated to give grounds for trust if the other is to take it seriously. Nither side did, so nither side made any headway in the "negotiation" department.
As I stated before, Spectre Intel says the quarians had only just started to purhcase the materials to retrofit their fleet when the Reapers attacked Earth and Palaven. And Admiral Hackett says that the Alliance only just started getting reports of trouble on the geth border when Shepard finished Priority: Tuchanka, meaning it happened at least a few days prior to that - when Shepard was on Tuchanka curing the genophage. In other words - the quarians indaved 4-6 weeks after the Reapers invaded the galaxy.
And everyone, quarians included, think the geth already have gotten in a punch-up with someone -- the Council and Alliance, ever since three years ago. They think the geth have been Reaper allies all along.
If the geth were open to peace talks, Legion wouldn't have been locked up in the first place - he would have been supported by other geth. It can't be concidence that Legion was the only geth that ever got in contact with Tali - if others wanted it, they would have tried it. Instead, they severed all communciation. Nither side had any intent of doing what was needed to make this work.
But it was becuse of that advice that they invaded to begin with. Remember what Gerrel said:
Tali- "We might need that fleet to fight the Reapers, Admiral."
Gerrel - "Then we need a world to shelter our noncombatants on while we do it!"
That was the mentality of the war - that without a world, they will all die. Also, the quarians are pretty insular - unless it pertains to the geth, they don't give a damn about who cured what, or who aligened with who. As far as the quarians are concerned, Shepard is a consultant on how to fight the geth and Reapers. Nothing else. It isn't until after the rescue mission for Koris, and saving the liveships by disabling the geth fighter's Server, that Shepard gains trust among the quarians.
And again, this entire time, the quarians have thought the geth were the evil genocidal monsters that everyone saw attack the Citadel. Being told out of the blue that this is incorrect with no proof of it yet is going to me met wiyth secptisim. After all, trust and faith are in short demand nowadays. You have to prove yourself in the here and now to get any kind of respect. I mean, Wrex holds the war effort hostage for a genophage cure, despite all the trust you and he have. The Council even now need you to save them again before they commit to your war effort. The hanar need you to save their wold before they commit to you. Your reputation means sh*t to the turians, krogan, asari, salarians, volus, hanar, elcor, and vorcha. You have to run yourself ramapnt to get the trust of even your friends, like Ashley/Kaiden. Hell, even Legion doesn't give you full trust anymore because of you're "employment" with the quarians. Why would the quarians be any different then the rest of the galaxy when it comes to trusting you?
And how was attacking the Dreadnought any different then when Hackett attacked Sovergien when it was right on top of you outside the Citadel Tower. Hackett almost killed you too in that fight. No different then Gerrel, and for the same reasons - one person isn't worth millions. Gerrel decided not to gamble his race on one person.
And, I don't know if you realize, but the quarians have a bit of a problem putting trust in others if they don't think it's a sure thing.
Well, they think the geth would have killed the sh*t out of the entire galaxy at the Battle of the Citadel. They think the geth are monsters. And the geth pause in their attack because of the downgrade in processing power. They do recover. Even the Codex states that if you don't give the geth the code, that they "put up a tireless defense" and that the final fight is "nowhere near one-sided" indicating that even without the code, the geth don't just role over and die.
Also, this is because he thinks the geth are monsters - he has Tali's accounts of the geth on the Citadel under Sovergien to give him that idea. He hasn't seen any geth but the Heretics. It's like how Garrus only saw krogan like Wreve all his life, then his opinion changed when he met Wrex. Gerrel has only seen the Heretics and the Reaper-geth. He hasn't seen any true geth to show him that the geth aren't monsters.
Also, if that was true, why did the geth obliterate the liveships? They could manuver their fighters to block incoming fire, but can't disable ships or shoot the combat-spicific ones? And if you give the geth the code and don't have the quarians stand down, thy "methodically wipe out the quarians," and do so "ruthlessly."
So again, they balance out pretty even.
Well, when they are everywhere, how can you not? And for all you know, it mght not even be anything you do. Someone else might do or say something. Or the geth might go off themselves. The quarians weren't willing to bet their entire race on a gambit. They were afraid that if left be, they would eventually react. Can't risk talking to them, can't risk letting them be.
The quarians don't make bets on something unless it's a sure thing. Especally when it comes to their entire race. You can't fault them for wanting to keep their families safe - even if they went about it the wrong way. Which they did.
Well, yes, in terms of narrative, Rannoch is a mess. That's an understatement. But the reason Tali would have just killed the geth is because they sided with the Reapers - she would have written them off as untrustworthy for that. Also, did Xen ever strike you as someone that ever gave a damn about synthetic rights anyway? To Xen, synthetics are just tools - nothing more or less. And after all that they have done to each-other, can you really blame Raan for wanting to keep the quarians and geth seperated? And the only reason the quaians were hostile was because of the image the Battle of the Citadel painted of the geth. Now that they know that the majority of geth weren't the ones responcible for that mess, they are more willing to find a common ground.
But this was after the geth killed their envoys. When the geth killed the envoys, the Council tightened down all decks - they blockaded the Perseus Veil in responce to the geth's actions, and any synthetic was now regarded as a potental threat, instead of just suspission. The geth's rejecting of their open hand was what made them tighten down on other synthetics. What the geth did is what caused those laws to become so strict - the geth themselves caused the increase in harshness of the laws, which brought about the deaths of those A.I.s. The geth's actions increased fear of synthetics.
Also, the geth had a chance to stop it by responding to hails. The only reason the Council sent ships in is because the geth didn't answer comms. And again, if you don't want to open your doors to someone, tell them so that they don't keep trying.
And the Council never actually breached geth space. They never even got close to the Perseus Veil. They olny ever got as close as the Far Rim, which is actually beyond the edge of the Veil. It's the geth's doorway, and you have to go there to reach the Veil. The geth built up around the Far Rim and expanded their space to inlcude the Rim. According to the relay map, it seems the only way into the Perseus Veil for organics is to pass through the Far Rim, so the geth built up forces at Haestrom accordingly. No other relay seesms to conncet to the Veil - at least, none accessible from organic space. So, the Council never actually did breach geth space - they got as far as the doorstep before being killed.
Also, they didn't keep agression in the Veil - the Heretics attacked the rest of the galaxy. Doesn't matter how long you keep a lid on it - if it get's out. it get's out. And look how the Heretics behaived.
Also, as stated by Legion, the geth actually do not have any form of agression - the Heretics attacked because they wanted Reaper Tech from Sovergein. Organics were just the tool to get what they wanted - they apperantly didn't feel agression at all. They didn't feel any form of emotional connection to organics.
In other words, you do accept and understand what the quarians did? But simply don't approve or endorse it?
That's how I feel about the geth. And at the very least, you can understand why the quarians did these things, even if you wouldn't have taken that path yourself, right? Same for me, regarding both races - I understand what they did, I accept what they did, but I don't approve of the things either one did to each-other.
I just think that nither one is more or less stupid then the other - they seem pretty dead even to me in that regard.
What I meant was it is far easier to communicate with something that looks human, rather than talking to a gun or something, which is why it should have been easier to accept the fact the geth grew sentience. It's harder to accept your Xbox talking about the meaning of life than it is something that looks vaguely humanoid and can walk/directly interact with the world.
I won't refute that; some of the worst things are done by people with noble intentions. I don't really understand the whole "racial hate" thing that just sprang up here...techniqually it should be 'specie hate'
In my opinion if the quarians had educated the geth on these matters, the whole massacre thing wouldn't have occured. As you said, the geth didn't really understand what they were doing; geth don't die like organics and they don't evolve like them- hence no understanding of children, foreign aliens and whatnot and their brutal retaliation.
Me neither...but in my opinion wanting to reprogram the geth is even worse than killing them, so I'm kinda biased in that regard.
That's why I said the Rachni are only vaguely comparable at best. Geth function on a whole different level than organics, which is why they are fairly crap at communicating with them. With quarians they are still prone to thinks all organics are; peer pressure and the like. The geth, due to being what they are, aren't suseptible to that. Even with the Admirals, Tali blithly goes along with the Rannoch Attack because she feels pressured into it. If they had govenered like the geth, having Koris and Tali against the attack meant it wouldn't have occured in the geth situation. Rann is just a useless fence-sitter. >:U
To the geth, the Heretics weren't geth anymore, therefore they are under no obligation to explain the Heretic's crimes. I'm not going to go and explain why my crazed sister, who I haven't seen for years, decided to mass murder people in a city and I'm under no obligation to apologize for her actions.
Legion is special among geth, due to being 'isolated' and evolving on his own; also he has had direct contact with Tali and she, vaguely, trusts him. That and it's moreso the quarians obligations to make amends, since they repetedly attack the geth throughout history. I wouldn't really tru to make friends with someone who's tried to kill me over and over again and attacked me first and only one of the group wants to talk to me- the same one who covers up the war-crimes her father committed. Mac wanted more shooty-shooty, hence the geth being stupid afterwards. <_<
You can read that notice when you first arrive at the Citadel, which
only hours after the Earth attack and it isn't time-stamped. So we
don't know if it occured right after or a day before or anything. It's
fustratingly vague like many things. But even if it was before I do not
approve of the quarians creating another stupid war during a Reaper
Invasion.
But Tali says they'll see need decades before they can live without suits on Rannoch; compared to centuries elseware. And I don't think the Reapers will ignore Rannoch to let the quarians settle in. It was incredibly short-sighted of the quarians. Okay, so maybe the geth are just keeping Rannoch to troll the quarians. I would in their situation lol
The geth don't need to repent for things the Heretics did; the Heretics aren't true geth anymore, therefore the geth aren't responsible for them. The quarians have proved time and again they never give ground; they
always attack the geth, 100% of the time. I certainly wouldn't open my door to people with that track record. Even Tali is horrible about it and tries to justify the horrible things her father did.
During a galaxtic genocide, there is no such thing as a non-combatant. "We fight or we die." Yes, that phrase was stupid beyond reason in the conversation but it is relevant else where; during crap like a Reaper Invasion EVERYONE needs to pitch in. If you run, you will be hunted down and killed regardless.
all quarians are able due to their life-style; you can't have poets and benefit users when you have to travel constantly. Why can't they just cram them on the Citadel? I doubt half the quarian population are useless; most would be mechanics of some sort and those battling Reapers would no doubt welcome their aid- yet the quarians never thought of that, too blinded by their near-sighted planet obsession.
Everyone is made stupid in ME3 to drive the "SHEPARD IS AWESOME" plot since she needs to solve everything since everyone is being fcuktarded morons. Which is why I hate ME3 so much in a lot of cases. Yes, Wrex is being a selfish fcukhead and I wanted to punch him. I wanted to smack the Asari counciler over for being such a selfish b!tch and tell her Thessia deserved to burn for the Matricarchs stupidity so I am full aware of how stupid they all are.
Different in point; Hackette is actively told by Shepard to attack Sovereign; both Tali and Shepard tell Gerrel to hold his fire. Gerrel ignores them and fires anyway. Also, Shepard isn't inside Sovereign, so she wasn't in real danger of getting hit. They
were inside the geth vessel when it was fired upon.
The liveships are armed regardless of the actual battle-readiness. That's a difference between attacking a ship with no weapons, and an armed ship who arrived with an Armada.
Yeah, Xen is a bit of a sociopath and I wish you could smack her like Gerrel. Better yet, be able to punch everyone out. But quarians have always been hostile to the geth; everytime they think they have an advantage, they attack. It's not like they ignored the geth for three centuries.
Heretics are different from geth. Okay, so maybe the geth are pulling a "crazed grampa with gun on rocking chair and yelling to get off lawn" but regardless organics should have stopped provoking them after the first ship went down; if someone ignores you, you don't go inside. You leave them alone as they aren't talking to you. Silence is not an invitation.
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I don't approve of most of what the geth did either; it's just I feel they have more valid reasons for their responses. So I understand both races situations, it's just I accept the geths responses as valid moreso than the quarians.
Indeed; as Dextro Milk pointed out, Mac prettty much wrote everyone as stupid morons so Shepard has to decide everything. <_<
Can you tell me the one where The Shepard beat the crap out of Elias Kelham and shot Joram Talid?
Retour en haut
Omg look how bad they need rannoch. Those poor souls cant find a home in a galaxy of billions of stars and trillions of planets and even if they do the council wont let them settle it. 
And the the coup de grace omg look at how beautiful tali is under that mask.
