1071 réponses à ce sujet

[Kel Riever]

[quote]remydat wrote...

[quote]Kel Riever wrote...

Wait who excuses the reapers of genocide?  Or did you mean the Geth?.  If you mean the Geth, they are not excused.  Nor are their creators who taught them how to committ genocide by trying to exterminate them.[/quote]

Seival and Auld Wulf excuse the Reapers of Genocide, but not Shepard for killing off the geth, so there's two people for you right there.  Whether people excuse the Geth for genocide is not something I am commenting on so much, as I am the hypocrisy of being mad at Shepard killing the Geth (or Quarians for that matter), but giving the Reapers (and the Catalyst for that matter) a total pass for committing mass genocide every 50,000 years since however long they did it for.  I know, 'But the Catalyst realized it made a mistake.'  Did it really?  Is that why you can still pick Destroy? 

Maybe the Catalyst found the perfect excuse all genociders use.  'I was made to do it! I didn't push the button myself!'  

As it applies to Geth or Quarians, personally, I made them make peace.  My Shepard justified it by basically wanting to win the war against the Reapers.  Not because of some moral high ground.  But I don't find that a necessarily compelling arguement needs to be made if you choose one over the other, either.  At least the Rannoch part of ME3 makes more sense than the Catalyst spew.
[/quote]

Neither of whom are in this thread.  I thought you were implying people in this thread currently discussing things were giving the Reapers a pass.
[/quote]

They haven't posted, maybe, but they aren't alone (sadly) and it does bear referencing.  But yes, do not take it to mean you personally. 

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
I'm talking about for the previous time by the entire rest of the Geth. They sent Legion. A single Geth platform, to gather information after three years on the Heretics while the Heretics had been gathering information on them for who knows how long? If it weren't for Shepard and company Legion's mission would have failed. A lone platform could not have handled that many Geth without being overwhelmed, nor would Legion have been able to make it to that station.

Where was my protest on behalf of the three diplomats? Uh... Remy, I was not even born, so how could I protest? Use some logic for a change.

The Geth were around, and knew about the Heretics and knew what the "Old Machines" were up to but did nothing.

They sent a single platform because sending more would incite the organics.  This is stated in game.  Further, the mission always involved finding Shepard because Shepard defeated Nazara so your scenario doesn't make sense.  

Um Shotgun, you are protesting the Geth crimes against organics right now so that is a lame excuse.  You weren't alive during the MW yet I see you protesting the Geth killing the Quarians.  So please stop protesting Geth crimes you were not alive to see.  Use some logic for a change

Tali and Koris were around and knew what the other Quarians were up to but did nothing.  Works both ways.  Honestly how many double standards can you express in one post

Modifié par remydat, 13 juin 2013 - 05:55 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Jukaga wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...


I forgot about a lot of this. I haven't had Geth VI since the first time I went through a non-import play of ME3, and the more I think about it, the less I like they way this is executed. If Legion is dead or given to Cerberus, there should be no Geth VI at all. It should just be you disabling the ship and getting the hell out of there and I guess requiring shuttle evac or something. On Rannoch, once the reaper is destroyed, the geth should be automatically destroyed when they stop firing. You got Legion killed anyway, so what difference does it make at this point? And really, it doesn't seem to make sense that Shepard would just let any other geth that isn't Legion on the Normandy. 

I guess this also applies to the Rachni queen. If she's dead, and you destroyed the brood nest in ME1, simply have no rachni mission at all. I don't think the ravagers add so much to it that their absence would matter. 

I fully agree. The Geth VI is al lthe more jarring if you sold Legion to Cerberus. At the very least there should have been an option to space it as Javik suggests. Through my actions or inactions, unbeknowst to me the Heretics would have taken over the consensus in that scenario so there never should have been a Geth VI to begin with, let alone a chance to side with the Geth. Other than being a complete wackjob, what sane Shepard who has been fighting the Geth for the last 4 years, who never met or talked to Legion ever even consider sacrificing the Quarians for their sake.

Bioware should take a chance for MEU and let us live with our decisions and consequences. Don't be afraid to close parts of the game due to your decisions and to open up others due to those same decisions.

This is excellent. I agree. A person who sold Legion to Cerberus should not have even had any Geth missions. There should have been an independent Quarian path. However here's what would have happened. You would have boarded the dreadnought, and got to the chamber...

Geth VI (without the hole): "Shepard Commander. Stop. We were sent to make contact and were captured and imprisoned here to transmit the reaper signal. We wish to help. We are part of the true Geth, a now a small faction of the whole taken over by the larger Heretic Geth. We will explain later. We need to escape."

And the story would develop from there, and explain the heretic/geth split etc. But once again this is one of the things that MW filed in the "what the hell were we thinking category." by putting essential characters in the "killable" zone, making it next to impossible to write a story without it being contrived, not that he's a great narrative writer.

[KaiserShep]

What would Tali and Koris really have been able to do. As we don't see the exchanges between the admiralty board and the civilian fleet captains, we don't really have a whole lot of details. This is kind of where the writing is weak again, because it doesn't play up the potential dangers of this kind of instability in a society as fragile as the Quarians'. Civil unrest is a much bigger danger to the Quarians than other species in the galaxy, but it's never explored as a possible reason why Tali and Koris were "forced" to fall in line. It doesn't help that the Quarians, for the most part, are on their own in galactic affairs. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 13 juin 2013 - 06:06 .

[KaiserShep]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
And the story would develop from there, and explain the heretic/geth split etc. But once again this is one of the things that MW filed in the "what the hell were we thinking category." by putting essential characters in the "killable" zone, making it next to impossible to write a story without it being contrived, not that he's a great narrative writer. 

I agree with this. If you make a character capable of dying, you really should not write this character's role as an unavoidable plot device in the next chapter. They didn't even so much as bother to make Legion's "avatar" a generic geth platform. It even had the N7 armor like some sort of holographic attachment. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 13 juin 2013 - 06:15 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

When did I blame those AIs for anything? I didn't kill them and I don't approve them being destroyed.

You know the extermination of the Citadel AIs happened at the same year as the MW. Which means they destroyed those AIs so something like the MW wouldn't happen over there. I doubt those AIs would be killed if the Geth weren't commiting genocide at the other side of the galaxy.

Phatose wasn't making a point, he just made a stupid comment. Geth are partially to blame for what the Heretics did and Geth have done plenty of damage themselves. I don't see how that is even remotely equal to blaming Quarians for what Seren did. That is just plain stupid.

Do you not understand how the bold is a contradiction..  In the first sentence you claim you did not blame those AI for anything but then in the bold you basically accept the Council killing them because of the Geth's crimes. 

Now let's apply the same logic to the Geth.  The Quarians attempted to exterminate them.  The Geth decided to kill not only all Quarians but all organics that enter their space.

Now explain to me why the Geth holding all organics accountable for the crimes of the Quarians is any different than the Council holding the Citadel AI accountable for the crimes of the Geth?

This would be like me saying some Black Africans killed some people in Africa so I will respond by killing all Black Americans to prevent it from happening in America.  It is bull**** SAK no matter who does it.  What Phatose was trying to show you is why the logic you present in the bold is bull**** by applying it to organics because you still fail to understand the bull**** inherent in what the Council did. 

In one breath you say it is wrong and then right after spend an entire paragraph justifying it.

How is it contradicting? I still didn't blame those AIs of anything. I just told you why they were killed. I still don't approve it.

Do you think they would have been killed it the Geth didn't commit genocide on the Quarians?

Modifié par S.A.K, 13 juin 2013 - 06:15 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Besides, remy those were three diplomats we didn't know about until the Citadel DLC, which isn't public knowledge because it is in the Citadel Archive. Shepard didn't even know about that until after the game was over. In other words, until after holding her breath for almost a year, but it's not supposed to be played that way. It's supposed to be played during the game. I didn't play it that way. So life goes on, right?

Besides it's only three AIs, and there's a law against them. I did destroy that rogue AI. I'm guessing you didn't. Or did you? Damned synthetics. No, I don't like them. I'm not a robot fan.

[KaiserShep]

But if you didn't destroy the rogue AI, you either avoided investigating the credit scam, or simply died, unless you mean the one on Luna, in which case you either avoided investigating it, or you simply died.

Don't hate on all robots. Glyph is actually a decent wingman. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 13 juin 2013 - 06:18 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

KaiserShep wrote...

What would Tali and Koris really have been able to do. As we don't see the exchanges between the admiralty board and the civilian fleet captains, we don't really have a whole lot of details. This is kind of where the writing is weak again, because it doesn't play up the potential dangers of this kind of instability in a society as fragile as the Quarians'. Civil unrest is a much bigger danger to the Quarians than other species in the galaxy, but it's never explored as a possible reason why Tali and Koris were "forced" to fall in line. It doesn't help that the Quarians, for the most part, are on their own in galactic affairs. 

You know what else gets me? Admiral Tali'Zorah vas Normandy. What the....? Not a Quarian ship name yet an Admiral? I can see if she was exiled, but as an admiral? Why not Admiral Tali'Zorah vas Alarei? She needs to have a command as an admiral.

[Jukaga]

KaiserShep wrote...
Don't hate on all robots. Glyph is actually a decent wingman. 

Glyph is just a non-sentient tool with a personality overlay like Aveena, there is nothing to hate.

[Jukaga]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...


This is excellent. I agree. A person who sold Legion to Cerberus should not have even had any Geth missions. There should have been an independent Quarian path. However here's what would have happened. You would have boarded the dreadnought, and got to the chamber...

Geth VI (without the hole): "Shepard Commander. Stop. We were sent to make contact and were captured and imprisoned here to transmit the reaper signal. We wish to help. We are part of the true Geth, a now a small faction of the whole taken over by the larger Heretic Geth. We will explain later. We need to escape."

And the story would develop from there, and explain the heretic/geth split etc. But once again this is one of the things that MW filed in the "what the hell were we thinking category." by putting essential characters in the "killable" zone, making it next to impossible to write a story without it being contrived, not that he's a great narrative writer.

That would have been a better dodge, but it's still a dodge. At least Tali didn't trust it for one second, going into that playthrough I was terrified that my crew would start calling it Legion and have Tali claim that it's on our side... glad they avoided that pitfall. I'd prefer to remain ignorant of the split in that scenario, that ship sailed when I sold the Geth to Cerberus. Make me pay for that decision; no consensus mission, Liveships take heavy losses but Quarians triumph in the end.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

KaiserShep wrote...

But if you didn't destroy the rogue AI, you either avoided investigating the credit scam, or simply died, unless you mean the one on Luna, in which case you either avoided investigating it, or you simply died.

Don't hate on all robots. Glyph is actually a decent wingman. 

Love Glyph. Can't say I hate on all synths. Glyph is cool, but then who programmed Glyph? We know who did. I just hate the ones who shoot at me. EDI is cool. My current Shepard views it as equipment but doesn't see a reason to abuse it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Jukaga wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...


This is excellent. I agree. A person who sold Legion to Cerberus should not have even had any Geth missions. There should have been an independent Quarian path. However here's what would have happened. You would have boarded the dreadnought, and got to the chamber...

Geth VI (without the hole): "Shepard Commander. Stop. We were sent to make contact and were captured and imprisoned here to transmit the reaper signal. We wish to help. We are part of the true Geth, a now a small faction of the whole taken over by the larger Heretic Geth. We will explain later. We need to escape."

And the story would develop from there, and explain the heretic/geth split etc. But once again this is one of the things that MW filed in the "what the hell were we thinking category." by putting essential characters in the "killable" zone, making it next to impossible to write a story without it being contrived, not that he's a great narrative writer.

That would have been a better dodge, but it's still a dodge. At least Tali didn't trust it for one second, going into that playthrough I was terrified that my crew would start calling it Legion and have Tali claim that it's on our side... glad they avoided that pitfall. I'd prefer to remain ignorant of the split in that scenario, that ship sailed when I sold the Geth to Cerberus. Make me pay for that decision; no consensus mission, Liveships take heavy losses but Quarians triumph in the end.

And that's exactly how I would have had it play out even with that dodge. The "regular geth" would have been small and the heretic geth would have been very large. No consensus mission. Your 850 war assets would have ended up as 525. Here's what would happen if you allowed the code upload..

* Quarian fleet destroyed.
* Heretic Geth Fleet destroys Regular Geth
* Heretic Geth turn against Normandy -- get the hell out of there.
* Return to Hackett -- mission was a failure.

It would be a horrible decision. You would look at your Geth ally when he says "Do we deserve death?"

* (Upload the Code) - paragon
Response: "Thank you, Shepard Commander. We regret the deaths of the creators."
Tali: "Don't do this. You cannot choose the Geth over my people."
Shepard: Contact the Admirals and tell them to withdraw. -- no peace possible and Shepard returns empty-handed.

* (uncertain) - neutral "I'm sorry. Won't the Heretics grow stronger as well?"
Response: "That is logical. They are sufficient in number to defeat both sides.  We regret we cannot be of help, Shepard Commander. I will not upload the code."
Tali: "A sacrifice for the greater good. I am sorry Geth Unit X."

* (Let the Geth Die -renegade) "No. I can't let you upload the code."
Response: "We knew not to trust organics." (grabs Shepard)
Tali: (stabs in back)

After the Geth fleet is destroyed by the Quarians, the remaining geth units on the ground are no longer sufficient in number to be sapient, however sufficient in number to perform farm labor. That is how important the neutral response is in a situation like this.

[remydat]

KaiserShep wrote...

What would Tali and Koris really have been able to do. As we don't see the exchanges between the admiralty board and the civilian fleet captains, we don't really have a whole lot of details. This is kind of where the writing is weak again, because it doesn't play up the potential dangers of this kind of instability in a society as fragile as the Quarians'. Civil unrest is a much bigger danger to the Quarians than other species in the galaxy, but it's never explored as a possible reason why Tali and Koris were "forced" to fall in line. It doesn't help that the Quarians, for the most part, are on their own in galactic affairs. 

Tali admits she could have warned Legion but opted not to?  Again, why should the Geth warn oganics about the heretics?  Also, what can the Geth that vote against the consensus really able to do?  It doesn't help that for the most paet the Geth are on their own in galactic affairs.

Point is this logic cuts both ways.  The Geth who vote against the Consensus have real means of opposing what the Consensus decides yet people want to hold them accountable do they not?

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

How is it contradicting? I still didn't blame those AIs of anything. I just told you why they were killed. I still don't approve it.

Do you think they would have been killed it the Geth didn't commit genocide on the Quarians?

The law still says they should not exist so it is quite possible they would have been killed sooner or later.  Which AI gets to live as an AI in peace.  EDI can't announce to the world she is an AI.  She has to pretend to be a VI.

Now I have a question for you.  Do you think the Geth would have been hostile to organics if the Quarians didn't try to slaughter them?  If so, explain why.

Again, SAK, the logic has to be applied both ways.  Organics have laws that are hostile to AI whether the Geth exist or not.  The Geth have no such laws against organics.

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Besides, remy those were three diplomats we didn't know about until the Citadel DLC, which isn't public knowledge because it is in the Citadel Archive. Shepard didn't even know about that until after the game was over. In other words, until after holding her breath for almost a year, but it's not supposed to be played that way. It's supposed to be played during the game. I didn't play it that way. So life goes on, right?

Besides it's only three AIs, and there's a law against them. I did destroy that rogue AI. I'm guessing you didn't. Or did you? Damned synthetics. No, I don't like them. I'm not a robot fan.

Sorry there were more than 3.  Those 3 were just the last of the bunch.  The others were killed off screen because that is what the organics say.  They specifically make a point of saying those 3 were the last ones left because they presumbaly killed the rest of them prior to that scene being shown.

And I was not talking about Shep.  I am talking about how you complain about Geth crimes about organics and ignore organic crimes against synthetics.  You are fully aware they exist no matter when you played the game.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

How is it contradicting? I still didn't blame those AIs of anything. I just told you why they were killed. I still don't approve it.

Do you think they would have been killed it the Geth didn't commit genocide on the Quarians?

The law still says they should not exist so it is quite possible they would have been killed sooner or later.  Which AI gets to live as an AI in peace.  EDI can't announce to the world she is an AI.  She has to pretend to be a VI.

Now I have a question for you.  Do you think the Geth would have been hostile to organics if the Quarians didn't try to slaughter them?  If so, explain why.

Again, SAK, the logic has to be applied both ways.  Organics have laws that are hostile to AI whether the Geth exist or not.  The Geth have no such laws against organics.

If Quarians didn't try to shut them down and found a way to co-exist no, the Geth may not be hostile. That is if the Geth do not rebel like the Quarians feared. If the Quarians didn't create them in the first place, it would have been the best outcome.

I don't know what kind of laws Geth have. But it's clear Geth usually follow a "shoot first and don't ask questions" policy when it comes to organics.

[KaiserShep]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

 Why don't the Geth leave Rannoch?

Why don't the Krogan leave Tuchanka?

Because the Council won't let them, that's why.

I think this is probably the best explanation. If the geth tried to leave Rannoch and establish a colony elsewhere, they would no doubt risk being mistaken for an invasion force. Presumably, any planet rich in resources, habitable or not, is a potential target for settlement. A geth migration would put them right into a confrontation. It certainly does not help that Sovereign rallied an army of geth to its disposal. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 13 juin 2013 - 08:18 .

[remydat]

Sak

Sure there is a chance they still rebel but sure seems to me that would be less likely.

And yes within Geth space they do not tolerate organics until Shep shows up. There is prejudice on both sides.
.

[DeinonSlayer]

KaiserShep wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

 Why don't the Geth leave Rannoch?

Why don't the Krogan leave Tuchanka?

Because the Council won't let them, that's why.

I think this is probably the best explanation. If the geth tried to leave Rannoch and establish a colony elsewhere, they would no doubt risk being mistaken for an invasion force. Presumably, any planet rich in resources, habitable or not, is a potential target for settlement. A geth migration would put them right into a confrontation. It certainly does not help that Sovereign rallied an army of geth to its disposal. 

From Mass Effect: Revelation (full passage):

In the aftermath of the war, the geth became a completely isolationist society. Cutting off all contact with the organic species of the galaxy, they expanded their territory into the unexplored reaches behind a vast nebulae cloud known as the Perseus Veil. Every attempt to open diplomatic channels with them failed: emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were attacked and destroyed the moment they entered geth space.

The Geth were already exploring and claiming new territory. It's stated in the Codex that less than 1% of the galaxy has been explored by organic civilization, so there is really no limit to where they could have gone. Especially considering that, as synthetics, they aren't even dependent on planets and stars (see Heretic Station). They "live in space stations; extract resources from asteroids. It is efficient."

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 14 juin 2013 - 12:20 .

[KaiserShep]

I really need to start sifting through the codexes more. heh

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

From Mass Effect: Revelation (full passage):

In the aftermath of the war, the geth became a completely isolationist society. Cutting off all contact with the organic species of the galaxy, they expanded their territory into the unexplored reaches behind a vast nebulae cloud known as the Perseus Veil. Every attempt to open diplomatic channels with them failed: emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were attacked and destroyed the moment they entered geth space.

The Geth were already exploring and claiming new territory. It's stated in the Codex that less than 1% of the galaxy has been explored by organic civilization, so there is really no limit to where they could have gone. Especially considering that, as synthetics, they aren't even dependent on planets and stars (see Heretic Station). They "live in space stations; extract resources from asteroids. It is efficient."

There is no proof that these other areas of space actually have resources that can sustain the Geth's entire civilization.  The vast majority of the Geth still appear to live in the known parts of space.  In addition, the Geth still have servers on Rannoch as the Geth server mission was on Rannoch.  There were enough Geth living there for Legion to describe destroying those servers as the equivalent of destroying a city.

Further, when the mega structure is destroyed, the reason the Geth get dumber is because they did not have enough server hardware to back up the programs on the mega structure.  If they had an abundance of resources from exploring these unexplored parts of space then they would not have such a shortage in server hardware.

And finally, there is no evidence that mass relays exist in these unexplored areas of space.  Unless the Geth know how to build their own relays, why set  up massive Geth settlements in areas of space that will require strictly non-Mass Relay travel?  They may be synthetic but the Relays are still a more efficient way to travel especially when you have resource limitations.  That is most likely why 99% of the galaxy remains unexplored.  There are no known mass relays in these parts of space.

Modifié par remydat, 14 juin 2013 - 03:15 .