KiwiQuiche wrote...
What I meant was it is far easier to communicate with something that looks human, rather than talking to a gun or something, which is why it should have been easier to accept the fact the geth grew sentience. It's harder to accept your Xbox talking about the meaning of life than it is something that looks vaguely humanoid and can walk/directly interact with the world.
I won't refute that; some of the worst things are done by people with noble intentions. I don't really understand the whole "racial hate" thing that just sprang up here...techniqually it should be 'specie hate'
In my opinion if the quarians had educated the geth on these matters, the whole massacre thing wouldn't have occured. As you said, the geth didn't really understand what they were doing; geth don't die like organics and they don't evolve like them- hence no understanding of children, foreign aliens and whatnot and their brutal retaliation.
Me neither...but in my opinion wanting to reprogram the geth is even worse than killing them, so I'm kinda biased in that regard.
That's why I said the Rachni are only vaguely comparable at best. Geth function on a whole different level than organics, which is why they are fairly crap at communicating with them. With quarians they are still prone to thinks all organics are; peer pressure and the like. The geth, due to being what they are, aren't suseptible to that. Even with the Admirals, Tali blithly goes along with the Rannoch Attack because she feels pressured into it. If they had govenered like the geth, having Koris and Tali against the attack meant it wouldn't have occured in the geth situation. Rann is just a useless fence-sitter. >:U
To the geth, the Heretics weren't geth anymore, therefore they are under no obligation to explain the Heretic's crimes. I'm not going to go and explain why my crazed sister, who I haven't seen for years, decided to mass murder people in a city and I'm under no obligation to apologize for her actions.
Legion is special among geth, due to being 'isolated' and evolving on his own; also he has had direct contact with Tali and she, vaguely, trusts him. That and it's moreso the quarians obligations to make amends, since they repetedly attack the geth throughout history. I wouldn't really tru to make friends with someone who's tried to kill me over and over again and attacked me first and only one of the group wants to talk to me- the same one who covers up the war-crimes her father committed. Mac wanted more shooty-shooty, hence the geth being stupid afterwards. <_<
You can read that notice when you first arrive at the Citadel, which
only hours after the Earth attack and it isn't time-stamped. So we
don't know if it occured right after or a day before or anything. It's
fustratingly vague like many things. But even if it was before I do not
approve of the quarians creating another stupid war during a Reaper
Invasion.
But Tali says they'll see need decades before they can live without suits on Rannoch; compared to centuries elseware. And I don't think the Reapers will ignore Rannoch to let the quarians settle in. It was incredibly short-sighted of the quarians. Okay, so maybe the geth are just keeping Rannoch to troll the quarians. I would in their situation lol
The geth don't need to repent for things the Heretics did; the Heretics aren't true geth anymore, therefore the geth aren't responsible for them. The quarians have proved time and again they never give ground; they always attack the geth, 100% of the time. I certainly wouldn't open my door to people with that track record. Even Tali is horrible about it and tries to justify the horrible things her father did.
During a galaxtic genocide, there is no such thing as a non-combatant. "We fight or we die." Yes, that phrase was stupid beyond reason in the conversation but it is relevant else where; during crap like a Reaper Invasion EVERYONE needs to pitch in. If you run, you will be hunted down and killed regardless.
all quarians are able due to their life-style; you can't have poets and benefit users when you have to travel constantly. Why can't they just cram them on the Citadel? I doubt half the quarian population are useless; most would be mechanics of some sort and those battling Reapers would no doubt welcome their aid- yet the quarians never thought of that, too blinded by their near-sighted planet obsession.
Everyone is made stupid in ME3 to drive the "SHEPARD IS AWESOME" plot since she needs to solve everything since everyone is being fcuktarded morons. Which is why I hate ME3 so much in a lot of cases. Yes, Wrex is being a selfish fcukhead and I wanted to punch him. I wanted to smack the Asari counciler over for being such a selfish b!tch and tell her Thessia deserved to burn for the Matricarchs stupidity so I am full aware of how stupid they all are.
Different in point; Hackette is actively told by Shepard to attack Sovereign; both Tali and Shepard tell Gerrel to hold his fire. Gerrel ignores them and fires anyway. Also, Shepard isn't inside Sovereign, so she wasn't in real danger of getting hit. They were inside the geth vessel when it was fired upon.
The liveships are armed regardless of the actual battle-readiness. That's a difference between attacking a ship with no weapons, and an armed ship who arrived with an Armada.
Yeah, Xen is a bit of a sociopath and I wish you could smack her like Gerrel. Better yet, be able to punch everyone out. But quarians have always been hostile to the geth; everytime they think they have an advantage, they attack. It's not like they ignored the geth for three centuries.
Heretics are different from geth. Okay, so maybe the geth are pulling a "crazed grampa with gun on rocking chair and yelling to get off lawn" but regardless organics should have stopped provoking them after the first ship went down; if someone ignores you, you don't go inside. You leave them alone as they aren't talking to you. Silence is not an invitation.
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I don't approve of most of what the geth did either; it's just I feel they have more valid reasons for their responses. So I understand both races situations, it's just I accept the geths responses as valid moreso than the quarians.
Indeed; as Dextro Milk pointed out, Mac prettty much wrote everyone as stupid morons so Shepard has to decide everything. <_<
Well, the geth used to not look any different from an X-Box. When the geth were first created, they were based in server hubs as a disemboided processing system. It wasn't till a few years later that the quarians created bodies for them to use, in an effort to automate labor with mobile units. To them, a geth is no different then an appliance, like an X-Box. Us being stunned at an X-Box talking is the exact human equivilant to how the quarians felt when the geth started talking. Remember, these were beings that were created spicifically to not be sentiant, like an X-Box. Or more accurately, one of those crash-test dummys. To to the quarians, it would have the same shock-value.
Indeed. I'm not sure where it being "racial hate" came from. More like "species fear." From what I can see, these conflicts have always been the result of a flurry of misunderstandings caused by good intentions being taken too far, and mass panic based on unconfirmed concerns, instead of a malicious intent against one another. It's been repeated alot -- and not just with synthetics. The krogan are proof of that.
Maybe, but when push came to shove, the Legion didn't hesitate to use it as an option against the Heretics. Besides, the quarians weren't sure if it was actual sentiance at the time, or just parroting words. Back then, they had no more guilt then if one replaced the OS on a computer. It wasn't until the geth refused reprogramming and broke through the quarians rewriting attempts that the quarians became certin that the geth were on the road to sentiance.
I know, but I still can't blame the quarians for it either. They didn't see the geth as anything but machines. To them, wanting to teach one about ethics and morals would be like a human trying to teach such things to a forklift, or an automated assembly unit. It's not something that you get off the top of your head when thinking about machines that you built for spicific tasks. If the quarians had intended the geth to be sentiant, I would understand, but they didn't, so I can understand why they didn't try. If you mean after the geth started to become sentiant -- well, I think the problem was that the quarians believed that the geth were
incapable of learning emotions or morals, since as machines, the geth think with logic. Why learn something with such erratic, illogical results? The quarians probably assumed that the geth would have no intrest in such endevors as learning emotioins.
Once again, an understandable belief. But like you said before, assumptions have caused alot of this mess.
I don't know. I mean, wasn't siding with the Reapers succumbing to the peer-pressure that they would be unable to survive any other way? Wasn't cutting themselves off from the galaxy caused by the peer-pressure that organics would never accept, or want to accpet them? Maybe they weren't succeptable to it in the beginning of their existance, but I think as the geth evolved, they bit by bit gained emotions, or at the very least a geth-analouge to emotion. Legion's contact with orgnaics and sharing his experances with them might have caused even more development on that front as well. After all, it's hinted that the reason Legion keeps Shepard's chestplate is out of a kind of admiration of Shepard's acomplishments against the Reapers. An "idolization" of Shepard in other words. Like a fan, although not at the level of Conrad Verner.
But the geth got blamed by everything the Heretics did. My point is that if the geth wanted to make allies of the organics, or supported Legion's attempt of peace, wouldn't they have at least tried to clear up that they had no connection to what the Heretics did? I mean, if the police have no record of where you're sister is, they are likely going to assume she would be with family, right? Unless you say otherwise, they are going to kick down the door and bring you in for questioning. Especally if said hose is regestered to your last name and doesn't differentate the fact that there is, or isn't, two seperate people here.
Don't even get me started on if the house isn't originally yours, but aquired in an unsanctioned gunfight.
No, you aren't under any
law of obligation, but that also means that consiquences and/or misunderstandings are potentally yours to bear for not coming forward. You don't
need to be proactive in a dispute, but it helps avoid unxepected consiquences. Point being -- the geth could have saved themselves a lot of greif and distrust, and potentally began unduing each-other's respective fears, had they done something to clear up the misconceptions. After all, the geth's isolation if from a preconception that organics will instinctively hate them -- and we all saw where preconceptions got people in the Morning War.
But the galaxy has public record of the geth attacking the galaxy multple times. Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Ilos, Virmire, Therum, The Citadel. In ME2 they tried to suicide-ram a ship full of munitions into a Terminus Colony. They were launching border schermishes across the Hades Nexus and so-forth (hell, there was even a crashed Geth Dreadnought on Altie, the planet were the "Overlord" DLC takes place). Because no one is aware of a Heretic split, the quarians think the geth have attacked the galaxy and cause more harm to it then the quarians ever did to the geth. For them to trust the geth, the geth would have to explain why they seemingly attacked every race in the galaxy unprovoked under the Reapers (the quarians are one of the few groups besides the geth that believe in the "myth " of the the Reapers). After all, do you really think Gerrel would feel sorry for the geth after watching them try to kill usher in galactic genocide on every living being? Not without solid proof that the geth weren't responcible for that. Which the geth weren't willing to give without their own proof that the quarians would let them be. And it goes on and on, bouncing off each-other's trust issues and lack of willingness to take a risk. Which is why I am so adimit about my belief that both sides have equal fault in this mess and the war that follows it.
Well, based on how critical a condition Ashley/Kaiden was in after Mars, I'd say pretty damn fast. Maybe half a day?
And the quarians figure that without a world, they die. And they think the geth are already Reaper allies, and don't know that they are starting another war. If the quarians had been aware that the Heretics weren't the geth, I could understand. But right now, it's no different then how people assumed Shepard was a servent of Cerberus -- lack of information, and unwillingness to put trust in people.
And you have to admit, decades is better then centuries, isn't it? And as Tali herself safely demonstrated at the end of the Rannoch War, at least the quarians can survive suit ruptures and open-air exposure on Rannoch, compared to instant death elseware.
And Rannoch is at the edge of the Terminus Systems, which the Reapers haven't been foucsing major attention on yet. If they had, I highly doubt Omega would still be intact, which it is. Most of the races in the galaxy exist in the "south" part of the map. The quarians are out of the way, meaning that the civilians on Rannoch will be safe from the fighting considerably longer then if they were in the center of the fighting, down in Council and Alliance space. And Rannoch's natural canyons and the geth's fortifications would ensure that the quarians could survive a slog for at least a while, compared to complete defeat in hours for a space battle.
But if the geth don't give any reason to trust them, how can you lay all the blame on the quarians. Do you think that anyone that witnessed the geth attack on the Citadel would listen to a geth speak, or even let them out of eyesight before killing them? Legion went to Eden Prime, and the moment his presance was uncovered, he has half his chest blown open by an Alliance soldier. And likewise, the geth try to justify the fact that they let the Heretics go, and basically were willing to allow complete genocide of the galaxy as long as they themsleves weren't affected. Again, I believe that both sides are guilty of equally falutible crimes, and that nither is willing to take a leap of faith. Both have trust problems when it comes to the other, and nither has concrete reasons to trust the other.
But when you can die from a single suit rupture, what good are you? You are more a burden then an asset. And as shown by the Multiplayer, every quarian that can bear arms goes out to fight.
Also, the Citadel is already overloaded with refugees from every other race. That mant species at once - contamination is a given. And the quarians are an entire race -- they consume an equivilant amount of resources. The Citadel would never accept them. No one has the resources to support millions of civilians.
And
not everyone is fighting. Everyone has civilians. Hell, even the
turians - the speices devoted to war and combat - have refugees and civilians that can't fight. They evacuate them from Palaven in the millions. The asari have civilians. Even the krogan have civilians -- their females and young. I mean, can you explain why there are millions of civilians heading to the Citadel instead of arming up and fighting?
No war is free of non-combatants. Even the
protheans had non-combatants according to Javik -- he says that because there was nowhere for them to take refuge, all the noncombatants died, being made into Collectors.
Well, let's face it:
The Alliance hides the extent of the Mars Archives for 30 friggin years.
The asari hide the Prothean Beacon for 20,000 years.
The turians demand krogan support (that's going to be easy<_<)
The krogan hold the war hostage for a genophage cure.
The salarians try to sabotage the allied alliance with a genophage sabotage plan.
Udina thinks Cerberus will hold up it's deal of a "bloodless coup." (oh, God)
Batarian soldier Balak tries to sabotage human war plans for something the humans didn't even do.
Cerberus thinks that messing with Reaper implants isn't going to bite them in the ass (WTF?)
The Alliance devotes resources to hunting a
myth (Leviathan), rather then the Crucible.
A crazy Ex-Cerberus chick
Clones Shepard, and tries to assassinate Shepard and replace the Commander with a xenophobic, anti-alien clone mock-up
in the middle of a multi-species, cooperation-driven war (Are you fu*king kidding me?!) (
NOTE: This is the plot of the "Citadel" DLC -- Woman clones Shepard. Clone steals Normandy. Shepard steals it back and kick clone's ass. Wrex returns as (temproary) Squad-mate for DLC.)
The Alliance
covers up Shepard's debreif and Classifies Shepard's Tesitimet about the Heretics, the Collectors, and the Alpha Relay (you really didn't think people needed to know this?! Go to hell, Alliance Admiralty!)
Faith in others, not to mention any form of
long term thinking, is not in big demand among most people in ME3. now granted, most people want to make sure their own bases are covered first. That's to be expected when everything is ending -- look out for you own people first, then help others. You'd evacuate your own family and loved ones from a bomb site frirst before helping others, right?
Although, you can't deny that, if it isn't at least partly selfish like the salarians and krogan's requests aren, then like the Morning War, it's often a "good intentions become horrible choices" scenerio with most of them. (Except Cerberus, Udina and the Ex-Cerberus girl's clone plan -- those are just straight-up retarded)
It's still the same risk and scenerio, right? There is even a choice to tell Gerrel that he did the right thing -- "Just give me a heads-up next time." Besides, there were also people requestion Hackett pull back from attacking Sovergien -- "Negitive. This is our only chance. Take that monster down no matter what the cost!" That's pretty much how Gerrel sees this situation -- they're dead if the geth repair that thing, or if it's about to come online again anyway. We already saw that the geth aborad weren't affected, so Legion sabotage could likely be easily reversed. Legion simply shut down the Core. It could assumedly be re-initilized just as easily. And Sovergien was right above them, seperated by
glass and a few sheets of plate-steel. I don't think
"safe" discribes Shepard in that situation. The fragment of Sovergien crashing into the room seems to prove the danger.
If 75% of your ships are carrying civilians, wouldn't you want them to have some form of defence? Besides, according to the Codex, being unarmed never stopped the geth from destroying ships. Why would it now? They were converted as a precautionary measure -- like how you get vaccinations against a virus you may never contract. Yes, I know that's a pretty simplistic generalization, but it's true -- they were prepped for "just in case" they needed defenses.
But the quarians have seen the images of the Battle of the Citadel. They think the geth want the death of all organic life and serve the Reapers. I mean, if you had been at the Battle of the Citadel, and had never met Legion, would a peace talk sound realisitc to you? And for the quarians -- who don't want to risk their people on anything that's not a sure bet, since they can't afford risks with their small population -- the idea is out of the question without solid proof. It's like how the Council shut down all your claims of the Reapers -- no proof. Yes, they have perfectly logical reasons for it, but it's aggrivating to see it constantly outweight the option of "have some faith," now does it? People in the galaxy don't trust easily -- insular, isolated sociaties like the quarians and geth, even more so. They don't do anything unless the outcome seems like a sure bet. So you can't exactally hate them for it.
Silence is not a disuading point, either. I mean, what's the harm in answering the phone and saying "no thank you. Please go away"? It would keep them from coming on the lawn in the first place. I can understand not wanting to deal with anyone, but ignoring all the calls and knocks on the door won't make it better. Shooting them dead even less so.
So, you and I are on agreement on that. You simply resonate more with the geth's actions because you believe they simply templated off the quarians actions first? I can understand that.
Ipersonally hold both in a similar regard -- both seem to be equally guilty and/or innocent, with nither comming across as better. But I can understand where you are comming from at least.
Well, I can't deny that much. Every race seems to have a tone of "everyone for themselves." I think that was intentional, but I definately agree that it was overdone.
Modifié par silverexile17s, 14 juin 2013 - 07:37 .
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not created as living beings, © make no claim to it themsleves, and (D) previous owners still have full claim to it. Legion says that 
