1071 réponses à ce sujet

[shodiswe]

Soldier096 wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
They had problems reachign a consensus on the Reaper offer after the Quarians attacked them... 17 days after the Quarians multisystem genocide attack had been initiated, they accepted the Reaper offer when their deathtolls were in the billions.

First  you can't kill a Geth. Those programs aren't individuals before the reaper code. They lost data nothing more. Legion even says that defining a race by your own terms is racist. Legion or the VI are the only units with a true personality because both are unique creations with a thousand programs as opposed to a mass produced Geth unit with only a few programs. Second What were the Geth doing before the Quarians attacked? It sure wasn't fighting the reapers or resolving the Quarian-Geth conflict. Oh right, they were still minding their own buisness as usual while the Quarians needed a world and the galaxy needs more forces to fight the reapers.

That's your interpretation, not necessarily shared with others or in game lore.

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

 Legion open the path for Shepard to the enine core.

So, the only point you can come up with for entire Geth race being useful is Legion opening a door for Shepard? I guess the Geth would be more useful as spare parts to fix the damage they done.

Modifié par S.A.K, 14 juin 2013 - 05:15 .

[remydat]

Soldier096 wrote...

First  you can't kill a Geth. Those programs aren't individuals before the reaper code. They lost data nothing more. Legion even says that defining a race by your own terms is racist. Legion or the VI are the only units with a true personality because both are unique creations with a thousand programs as opposed to a mass produced Geth unit with only a few programs. Second What were the Geth doing before the Quarians attacked? It sure wasn't fighting the reapers or resolving the Quarian-Geth conflict. Oh right, they were still minding their own buisness as usual.

This is factually incorrect.  Geth died when the megastructure was destroyed because they could not be backed up.  That is why their intelligence dimmed because a lot of them died due to that attack. 



Tali from ME1 says each Geth maintains an individual awareness and identity.  They are not a hive mind.  Tali makes this clear.  They just were not FULLY EVOLVED individuals but they still were individuals.

Finally, the Geth were doing the same thing the Salarians and Asari were doing when the Reapers had not attacked.  Preparing for war with the Reapers. Those races did not actively engage the Reapers even when their Allies were being attacked.  They basically abandon the rest of the galaxy because they were lucky and were not under attack yet so didn't have to fight.

[Soldier096]

shodiswe wrote...
That's your interpretation, not necessarily shared with others or in game lore.

It's hardly interpretation. Networked Intelligence. Geth units don't even have a self preservation instinct. When the platform is destroyed they transmit to another active unit or destroy their memory. The more programs there are the smarter the unit becomes. It's hardly an individual. There is no individual there is only Geth. Legion and the VI are exceptions because both are unique creations with more programs than the average unit. If you think a single program is alive then you must think you computer is alive or your phone.

Modifié par Soldier096, 14 juin 2013 - 05:26 .

[remydat]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Yeah, the Quarians saving you from being vaporised by a Reaper on Rannoch then dedicating their entire fleet to liberating YOUR planet, AND sending troops to Palaven, AND helping build the Crucible isn't helpful in the slightest...

How exactly have the Geth helped Shepard?

None if which is possible without the Geth. 



At 5:50 of the vid, Raan and the Quarians assumed that disable the dreadnought disabled the Reaper signal.  Legion informed them this was incorrect.  Raan then expresses shock and says she has to warn the fleet and sends Xen off to inform Gherel.  Without Legion or Geth VI, those idiots would have tried to retake Rannoch and been obliterated once the short range Reaper signal was back only.

Also you will note in the video that when Gherel blows up the dreadnought despite being told it is safe, Tali is about to float off into space and probably die thanks to her fellow Admiral and Legion saves her.

And further, the Geth do the same things you say the Quarians do post Rannoch.  Prior to the Rannoch arc, the only Quarian that is of any use to you is Tali and the only Geth that is of any use to you is Legion.  All the rest on both sides don't really do anything at all.

[Soldier096]

@Remydat
There are some big inconsistencies with the Geth. In the Heretic station Shepard asks "How do you stay you? "
Legion replies "We don't."
Also when Shepard activates Legion he asks "What is the individual in front of me called."
Legion "We are all Geth."
Legion doesn't even refer to itself as I until the reaper upgrade. The Geth could have changed the way they operate. 300yrs is more than enough time for information on the Geth to become obselete. 

Modifié par Soldier096, 14 juin 2013 - 06:11 .

[remydat]

Soldier096 wrote...

@Remydat
There are some big inconsistencies with the Geth. In the Heretic station Shepard asks "How do you stay you? "
Legion replies "We don't."
Also when Shepard activates Legion he asks "What is the individual in front of me called."
Legion "We are all Geth."
Legion doesn't even think it is an individual until the reaper upgrade. The Geth could have changed the way they operate. 300yrs is more than enough time for information on the Geth to become obselete. 

We are made up of billions of individual cells.  Individually, those billions of cells are not a sentient being but collectively they are.  If I wanted to, I can say I am not an individual but rather a legion of cells.  I don't because I have been conditioned to think of myself as an individual rather than as a collection of cells.  That is a function of my upbriging.

Likewise, once enough individual programs are connected together, they create a sentient being.  The individual identify that is Legion consists of 1183 of these programs or cells.  The fact he chooses to refer to himself as we is simply a function of his conditioning.  Those 1183 programs collectively have an individual consciousness and individual experiences that they experience and then can share with the rest of the Geth periodically.

The only difference between us and the Geth is that we can't then take the programs ie cells that represent you and combine them with the cells that represent me to create a shared consciousness.  The Geth can but that doesn't mean they not individuals.  They just have the ability to exist as both.  Legion can exist as 1183 programs represent one single intelligence or living being or he can choose to join his programs with more programs to form an even more intelligence living being.

Modifié par remydat, 14 juin 2013 - 06:38 .

[remydat]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

True, but that's Legion helping you, the rest of the Geth had him imprisoned in the first place, and the Quarians still help you destroy the Reaper.

So Koris, Kal'Reegar and Veetor don't count?

How does Koris aid you?  You have to try and save him or his crew.  Kal'Reegar dies if you don't tell him to stay down and not attack.  Veetor's mech tries to kill you until you destroy it.  None of those guys are anything more than people you randomly encounter and basically have to save and in exchange you might get intell out of them.  That's it.  In fact, I cannot think of a single mission the Quarians complete successfully on their own without my intervention.  I guess the email you get where Kal Reegar dies saving some other people in the process is the only one I can think of.  Otherwise, aside from Tali helping me, they find a way to botch everything they put their hands on.

The only reason I encounter more Quarians is because the game takes place in organic space not because they are particularly useful.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I'm still having trouble with that reaper destroyer's main gun thanix hitting that rock cliff that's not 10 feet behind Shepard and is missing Shepard by about 8 sizzling white hot feet, and has no ill effects on Shepard, while Harbinger's aux thanix hit the ground about 20 yards in front of Shepard and burns all of her armor off. Ah, yes, quality writing for the win.

Must ... resist ... entering ... rest ... of ... debate.

[Phatose]

....Wow. Actually, forget Shepard for a second.

That cliff gets hit with a Reaper's main gun multiple times, doesn't heat up, doesn't crack, doesn't melt, and doesn't even kick up dust.

Forget the Quarians, forget the Geth, forget the Crucible. Get every scientist and engineer available there to figure out how to mine whatever that cliff is made out of and armor our ships with it.

[remydat]

Yeah but that is like asking how come when you duck behind a crate or any other cover that **** does not get destroyed no matter how many missiles are fired at it by the enemy.  I mean at the end of ME2, I can hide behind cover and magically the Human Reaper never blows up that cover.

That has nothing to do with quality writing. It is obvious that certain liberties are taken for the purpose of the gameplay. It is a game.

Modifié par remydat, 14 juin 2013 - 07:16 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Phatose wrote...

....Wow. Actually, forget Shepard for a second.

That cliff gets hit with a Reaper's main gun multiple times, doesn't heat up, doesn't crack, doesn't melt, and doesn't even kick up dust.

Forget the Quarians, forget the Geth, forget the Crucible. Get every scientist and engineer available there to figure out how to mine whatever that cliff is made out of and armor our ships with it.

Talk about plot armor. How would you even mine it? You'd have to figure out how make an ionized spray and have it polymerize and coat the hulls of our ships with that. Yet still be able to open the hatches, and doors. If we could do that, the reapers wouldn't stand a chance.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...

Yeah but that is like asking how come when you duck behind a crate or any other cover that **** does not get destroyed no matter how many missiles are fired at it by the enemy.  I mean at the end of ME2, I can hide behind cover and magically the Human Reaper never blows up that cover.

That has nothing to do with quality writing. It is obvious that certain liberties are taken for the purpose of the gameplay. It is a game.

Yeah those platforms are made of adamantium and are extremely stable whe the thing is climbing up onto them, too. lolz. They only get unstable during the explosions. I felt like the Biotic God. I tossed the Human Reaper around like a rag doll.

You've seen the drawing. Human Reaper size. Shepard = dot. Shepard's Warp = about like Niftu Cal's against Wasea. But it did damage against the Human Reaper. lolz. I am a Biotic God. A Great Biotic Wind.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 14 juin 2013 - 07:31 .

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

 Legion open the path for Shepard to the enine core.

So, the only point you can come up with for entire Geth race being useful is Legion opening a door for Shepard? I guess the Geth would be more useful as spare parts to fix the damage they done.

I don't know why you're picking out one of several things I posted and claim it's my only point. The post you're refering to is a clarification of one of the points.

I'm just tryign ot avoid massive Quote pyramids.

But then again, if opening a door saves someones life, then it's not negleable, if it saves someoen that is destined to save trillions then it isn't making it any less of a service.

Modifié par shodiswe, 14 juin 2013 - 07:47 .

[shodiswe]

Soldier096 wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
That's your interpretation, not necessarily shared with others or in game lore.

It's hardly interpretation. Networked Intelligence. Geth units don't even have a self preservation instinct. When the platform is destroyed they transmit to another active unit or destroy their memory. The more programs there are the smarter the unit becomes. It's hardly an individual. There is no individual there is only Geth. Legion and the VI are exceptions because both are unique creations with more programs than the average unit. If you think a single program is alive then you must think you computer is alive or your phone.

The thing is, they arn't like a phone or some other stupid example.
What makes you, "you" is your memories and millions of little programs inside you even if they are running on elctrical impulses over organicbased neurons and cells, using hormones and neuraltransmittors.

[Soldier096]

@shodiswe
Are single memories alive or information? Why is it that Legion doesn't even value itself as an individual yet you do? Do you know better than Legion about the Geth? Also Legion never even referred those Geth programs as lives. You are trying to humanize the Geth when we have nothing in common. Even Legion says this is wrong. 

Legion: "Treating every race like one's own is racist." 

Modifié par Soldier096, 15 juin 2013 - 06:05 .

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

 Legion open the path for Shepard to the enine core.

So, the only point you can come up with for entire Geth race being useful is Legion opening a door for Shepard? I guess the Geth would be more useful as spare parts to fix the damage they done.

I don't know why you're picking out one of several things I posted and claim it's my only point. The post you're refering to is a clarification of one of the points.

I'm just tryign ot avoid massive Quote pyramids.

But then again, if opening a door saves someones life, then it's not negleable, if it saves someoen that is destined to save trillions then it isn't making it any less of a service.

I commented on the rest of what you said just before you posted that link.

[remydat]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Koris- Supports you when talking down Han'Gerrel, and a war asset.
Veetor- Gives you Collector data and helps Tali in her trial.
Kal'Reegar- Helps you out during Haestrom mission, possibly sacrifices himself to draw fire away from Shepard, kept Geth from getting to Tali.

Gherel still refuses to stand down even after Koris says Shep speaks with his authority.  He responds after this that he still wants to attack and only when Shep then mentions the reaper code does Gher stand down.  So in reality Legion via uploading the Reaper Code is the only reason Gherel is talked down. 

And the Geth Primes that Legion saves in the server mission become war assets as does all the Geth without Shep having to convince them.  So  Koris's role is no different than the Geth in that regard. 

As for Veetor.  Yes he provides you data only after almost killing you with a Mech.  And yes he can help at the trial only if you choose a specific dialogue option which I typically don't need to pick.

Reegar provides aid that I actually don't need.  I save Tali whether I ask for his help or not.  And frankly, I always tell him to stay down so he doesn't get his a** killed.

Mind you, I love all 3 of these characters and along with Tali, Kenn on Omega, and the Quarian who gets hated on by the Volus and C Sec officer on the Citadel but none of them are that useful really.  I can achieve my mission without their help. 

By contrast, I cannot save the Quarians without Legion or Geth VI.  They are mission critical characters.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

The Geth promised to help rebuild Earth aswell after the Reapers have been defeated.

Because a human wiped out the quarians. Genocide for geth help -- THAT's a simple choice<_<

When it stands between a good helpful people versus a people who doesn't seem very willing to help and is mostly interested in genociding other species over and over again, only they are complete failures aswell... Well, the choice seems simple.

And what exactally do you call sitting behind the Perseus Veil and letting the Reapers, Heretics, and later on the Collectors, run free with no offer of help what-so-ever? Doesn't those geth actions fall into the Catagoty of "doesn't seem very willing to help"?
Also, AGAIN, you ignore the simple fact that the quarians did not care one way or the other about the geth -- they just want their world back. And they think that the geth have ill intent to the entire galaxy based on the actions witnessed at the Citadel -- which the geth never claimed innocence for.
When you actually look at the faults, most people would choose the quarians -- and it's the geth's own fault for the reputation they have.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

 Legion open the path for Shepard to the enine core.

Agaian, this is what Legion -- an individual geth, SEPERATE from all the rest -- have done.
The question you keep deflecting is "what have the geth done to be helpful." NOT Legion -- the REST of the geth?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Nope. I'm not the one who's story changed.
I always claimed thart Legion cut contact - at the urging of the geth. Legion was in contact after he returned to the Veil - but NOT after he was re-integrated into the Consensis.  So, once again, you're stroy is the one lacking in details, not mine.

Also, Tali admitting that she could have warned Legion means that she could have sent Legion a message regardless of if he responded. Remember, him not responding didn't mean he wasn't receving the messages - at least, that's what Tali thought. Based on what Tali says, Legion cut contact well before the invasion was even launched. Her exact words were that Legion cut contact, and that she tried to reastablish contact, but stopped trying after the quarians decided to fight. Meaning that Legion severing contact was before the quarians even voted on marching to war. She said she stopped trying to contact Legion because that might tip him off about an invasion and betray her people. So she stopped trying when the quariands decided to go to war - months ago.

So, sorry, but your story is full of holes.

This is completely untrue.  Shep asks Tali about Legion AND SINCE THE ATTACK and Tali says she spoke to Legion SINCE THE ATTACK and that he told her the Geth were having trouble reaching consensus.  Once again, 9:49 of the vid beloe says this is SINCE THE ATTACK

YOUR statement is completely untrue. In fact, that video contridicts all your claims.
"Since the attack" does NOT mean "directly prior to the attack." There is no timestamp. Tali's words state that she has not had contact with Legion since after the Admirals rejected the offer. She states that she stopped trying to contact it when the Admirals decided on War. She says that she has NOT SPOKEN TO LEGION since the attack. Also, she says that she could have warned it about the attack but didn't, meaning that these events happened BEFORE THE QUARIANS EVER ATTACKED.
ONCE AGAIN, You areRANTING ABOUT NOTHING. "Since the Attack: is just a damn lable for the conversation -- not even a spoken line of diolouge.

[silverexile17s]

Phatose wrote...

....Wow. Actually, forget Shepard for a second.

That cliff gets hit with a Reaper's main gun multiple times, doesn't heat up, doesn't crack, doesn't melt, and doesn't even kick up dust.

Forget the Quarians, forget the Geth, forget the Crucible. Get every scientist and engineer available there to figure out how to mine whatever that cliff is made out of and armor our ships with it.

So, guess you can't say the quarians wouldn't be safe on Rannoch anymore, can you? Canyons like that -- the quarians are solid now.