1071 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

So then you basically believe whatever the hell you want, regardless of proof, lore, cannon, or anything else? Yoiu are basically unreasonable? Good to know.

And if they give indifference? When they make no inclination to say one way or the other? Silence is not an automatic "no." You want someone to get the message -- Tell them so. As I said before, the geth had no reason to think they were liers, and had the full capability to tell the truth.

Weren't you just talking about "humans never lose Earth because they are still alive in the end?" You keep changing your arguement. Refuse is the ONLY ending this happens in. In refuse, the geth are dead too, remember?
Also, AGAIN, not their homeworld, because (A) claimed in illegal war, ( not created as living beings, © make no claim to it themsleves, and (D) previous owners still have full claim to it. Legion says that don't believe in the concept of a homeworld.

In other words -- you are completely and utterly prejudiced. You truly are mixing a personal grudge to a seperate dispute about real-life racisim to this unrleated fictional debate about cause and effect on the actions of two races.

WRONG. You are basically saying "might makes right" and "If I'm stronger, what I say goes." That's racial supremicy, and saying that enlsavement is perfectly just.
Words don't even begin to describe my horror at that.

You have provided proof of nothin.  You have shared opinions and then tried to pretend those opinions are facts.

Silence is not an invitation to enter someone elses terroritory.

I don't pick refuse so in all my games humans are winners and own Earth.  In all my games, the Quarians are losers after the morning war and do not live on Rannoch.

Silver, if you are American but not Native American, please vacate the USA.  When you do then I will accept your argument because right now I am horrified you remain in the USA when that country was stolen from the rightful owners.

silverexile17s wrote...

But then why do you seemingly advocate it? Or is this because you still don't grasp that this is not a case of "oppression" but mutual fear and concern?

Wrong. On a scale of 1 - 10, the desire of both is at either 0  or 1. Nither has any reason to trust the other, or risk anything on each-other's word. If the geth wanted peace, they would not have allowed the Heretics to try and usher in galactic genocide. If they wanted peace, Legion would not have advocated for peace completely alone. Nor would he have been recalled and never allowed to reestablish contact with Tali.
Sorry, but again, the geth are "simply "on the same exact level as the quarians.  

Sorry, but that's complelely contridictory to your statement about the geth wanting peace more then the quarians. If you state that the geth shouldn't have warned people about Heretics, that means you are saying they don't want peace any more then the quarians. What part of your self-contridiction don't you understand.

For being Reaper-Tech. Would you allow Reaper-Tech to be walking around the Citadel, when there are Reapers killing people? It's NOT racial discrimination when the progenator of said person (The Reapers) is waging a war of genocidal conquest against you. It's concerned about poetntal enemies in your borders. When you are actively at war with a faction, you wouldn't keep their tech or creation of said-tech from entering your borders? It's not prejudice. And those A.I were reacted to out of the fear thatr they would end up like the geth and kill for seemingly no reason.
The geth seem to punish other organics for the quarians actions out of fear. The quarians attacked the geth out of fear. And in the later conflicts, NEITHER SIDE ACTED OUT OF PREJUDICE, but out of a survival insinct. What part of THAT do you not understand?

The Quarians tried to exterminate the Geth when the Geth did not do anything to them.  They did so because they Geth were synthetics and they feared them.  That is called prejudice.  The Geth responded to that prejudice with their own prejudice because they not only killed the Quarians but they judged all organics based on the Quarians attempt to kill them. 

Nope the Quarians hated peace more because they attacked first.  Geth had no problem living with the Quarians.  The Quarians had a problem living with the Geth. 

Please provide a link where anyone claims that if not for Reaper Tech, EDI would be allowed to walk free around the Citadel as a VI?  You tend to make stuff up and exaggerate.  EDI could admit to being an AI without admitting she has Reaper Teach?  Why doesn't she do this?

1. You haven't either. You are the one guilty of trying to parrade opinion as fact when you have absolutly nothing. You just now stated that you have the "right" to not accept anything you don't want to -- the epitimy of a prejudiced view.

And nither is it a warning. It's a sign of indifference. Silence can be interperted any number of ways. Including as simple lack of intrest. Again, if you want to diffinitively turn someone away, you have to actively tell them, because organics are not psychic.

ONCE AGAIN, you blatently ignore the point -- as long as people live, then the land they evolved on is rightfully theirs. NO execptions. The humans have right to the worlds they settled, as do the quarians. And FYI, the geth don't live on those worlds either. They live in stations. Rannoch is the sole exception. Legion even spicifically says that Rannoch IS NOT THEIRS, and that they don't believe in the concept of a homeworld. Sorry pal, but accoridng to Legion himself, Rannoch is the QUARIANS homeworld and STILL is. It doesn't belong to the geth.

Dad has a Native-American great-uncle:D AND my mom's side had ancestors who were colonists that setteled side by side with the locals in the last century, not drive them out.
In other words, you just made an ass of yourself. Again. Besides, I already DO have plans to move -- I want to see europe in the future.
You've basically also just said that you yourself should vacate America too -- you've also made clear indication that you have mixed up "racisim" and "fear" in this debate. You have done nothing but promote prejudice and oppression. You advicate for supremist policies anbd "might makes right" ideals, insetad of mutual cooperation and understanding. You want genocide instead of co-existance. You think that "I take it, it's mine" is lawfu and just. It's not -- It's racial conquest and domination. Both things I thought you claimed to hate, yet you seem to advocate.
Seriously, drop your double-standards already.


2. Likewise, the geth exterminated millions of quarian civilians that had no part in what their government decided. So, fault for fault - AGAIN, it all equals out. They are the SAME. Both sides reacted in fear and self-preservation. NOT out of a hatered, or a supremicy complex. NITHER SIDE had these traits. And you once again advocating prejudice in a discussion where it does not apply. You advocate situations that make you a hypocrite.
Also, FYI, The quarians didn't judge all synthetics based on the geth, considering how the quarians have multiple V.I. Operated Cybernetic Implants, and have V.I.s operating the majority of their suit systems. The geth are just as guilty and faultible of their own actions. They are just as contrite as the quarians. End of stroy.

So the quarians standing down at Shepard's request and peacefully intigrating with the geth at the End of the Rannoch war was a massive illusion? Seriously, lose the headcannon-fuled double-standards.
The geth didn't support peace EITHER. I didn't anything about Legion having a delegation of geth trying for peace -- he acted alone, in DEFIANCE of the rest of the geth. So, NOPE - GETH DIDN'T WANT IT EITHER.
The geth killed the science exploration to Haestrom, and shot down the scouting ship at Gei Hennom that was determining if the world was sutible for colonization. BOTH were quarian ships that weren't on hostile missions, but the geth shot them frirst. The quarians don't have a shoot-first policy with others -- not even Legion was shot, and he was fresh off a Cerberus Ship with an accused tratior by his side.

JOKER, He says that if anynoe found out that she was an "unshackeld A.I with Reaper-based code, they would... lynch you." REAPER CODE.
Also, the Law prohibiting the aggrivation of A.I.s might have something to do with that. The law is that you (A) can't actively aggrivate currently-existing A.I.s, as they are either, like the geth, a faction with signifigant military power, or being actively used by governments, lilke the "Eliza" A.I. at Gagarian Station. ( You do not create new A.I.s without Council licencing. Doing so is a punsihable offence. © Reaper Tech is illegal, and the Council mandates that all examples must be destroyed. (On Liara's Broker Terminal in ME3, you will get a store discount for opting to destroy Reaper tech rather then reverse-engineer it.) The Council says that Reaper-Tech scavenged from Reapers, like Sovergien, is an absolute No-No.
And LoL, what? That's YOU, not me. You are the one that exaggerates constantly.
And AGAIN, it's because they would re-engage her A.I. Shackles if they found out.  And when the techs go into her core to re-apply her Shackles, they will likely stumble on the Reaper Tech in her core, and report it. After that, she will be shut down permenately.
I mean, seriously, this isn't that hard to figure out  -- It's a simple "A leads to B leads to C" domino effect. No hand-waiving or anything.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

YOUR statement is completely untrue. In fact, that video contridicts all your claims.
"Since the attack" does NOT mean "directly prior to the attack." There is no timestamp. Tali's words state that she has not had contact with Legion since after the Admirals rejected the offer. She states that she stopped trying to contact it when the Admirals decided on War. She says that she has NOT SPOKEN TO LEGION since the attack. Also, she says that she could have warned it about the attack but didn't, meaning that these events happened BEFORE THE QUARIANS EVER ATTACKED.
ONCE AGAIN, You areRANTING ABOUT NOTHING. "Since the Attack: is just a damn lable for the conversation -- not even a spoken line of diolouge.

Prior to selecting the option AND SINCE THE ATTACK

Tali - Legion and I sent a few messages.  I was hoping we could try negotiation but I was outvoted 3-2.  Admiral Koris was the only one who believed it could work.

The above statement confirms that while Tali and Legion were still sending messages after he returned to the consensus, The Quarians voted against negotiation.  Why else would she ask the Quarians to vote on negotiation if her and Legion were not still commmunicating?

Then right after that statement you select  the dialogue wheel option AND SINCE THE ATTACK.

Shep - Any idea where Legion is now?
Tali - No, in our last message he told me the Geth were having trouble reaching consensus.
Shep - And then nothing?
Tali - Maybe it was fighting the reaper takeover or maybe it didn't want to give intell to an enemy.

The dialogue wheel makes it clear the above discussion is about events since the Quarian attacked.  Tali tells Shep that in our last message which was since the Quarians launched their attack Legion told her the Geth were having trouble reaching consensus.  She does not reveal what they were having trouble reaching consensus over. 

We know that after the Quarians attack the Reapers extended an offer.  We know that until the Dyson Bubble was attacked the Geth did not accept this offer.  Thus, Tali was telling Shep that SINCE THE ATTACK, she spoke to Legion and her told her the Geth were having trouble reaching consensus.  Legion did not tell her the thing they were having trouble over was decided whether to accept Reaper Aid because as Tali notes, the Quarian attack means Tali and Legion are now enemies and  just like Tali refused to warn Legion about the Quarian attack, Legion refuses to reveal the whole truth to her after the Quarian attack, the Geth were approached by the Reapers.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

1. You haven't either. You are the one guilty of trying to parrade opinion as fact when you have absolutly nothing. You just now stated that you have the "right" to not accept anything you don't want to -- the epitimy of a prejudiced view.

And nither is it a warning. It's a sign of indifference. Silence can be interperted any number of ways. Including as simple lack of intrest. Again, if you want to diffinitively turn someone away, you have to actively tell them, because organics are not psychic.

ONCE AGAIN, you blatently ignore the point -- as long as people live, then the land they evolved on is rightfully theirs. NO execptions. The humans have right to the worlds they settled, as do the quarians. And FYI, the geth don't live on those worlds either. They live in stations. Rannoch is the sole exception. Legion even spicifically says that Rannoch IS NOT THEIRS, and that they don't believe in the concept of a homeworld. Sorry pal, but accoridng to Legion himself, Rannoch is the QUARIANS homeworld and STILL is. It doesn't belong to the geth.

Dad has a Native-American great-uncle AND my mom's side had ancestors who were colonists that setteled side by side with the locals in the last century, not drive them out.
In other words, you just made an ass of yourself. Again. Besides, I already DO have plans to move -- I want to see europe in the future.
You've basically also just said that you yourself should vacate America too -- you've also made clear indication that you have mixed up "racisim" and "fear" in this debate. You have done nothing but promote prejudice and oppression. You advicate for supremist policies anbd "might makes right" ideals, insetad of mutual cooperation and understanding. You want genocide instead of co-existance. You think that "I take it, it's mine" is lawfu and just. It's not -- It's racial conquest and domination. Both things I thought you claimed to hate, yet you seem to advocate.
Seriously, drop your double-standards already.


2. Likewise, the geth exterminated millions of quarian civilians that had no part in what their government decided. So, fault for fault - AGAIN, it all equals out. They are the SAME. Both sides reacted in fear and self-preservation. NOT out of a hatered, or a supremicy complex. NITHER SIDE had these traits. And you once again advocating prejudice in a discussion where it does not apply. You advocate situations that make you a hypocrite.
Also, FYI, The quarians didn't judge all synthetics based on the geth, considering how the quarians have multiple V.I. Operated Cybernetic Implants, and have V.I.s operating the majority of their suit systems. The geth are just as guilty and faultible of their own actions. They are just as contrite as the quarians. End of stroy.

So the quarians standing down at Shepard's request and peacefully intigrating with the geth at the End of the Rannoch war was a massive illusion? Seriously, lose the headcannon-fuled double-standards.
The geth didn't support peace EITHER. I didn't anything about Legion having a delegation of geth trying for peace -- he acted alone, in DEFIANCE of the rest of the geth. So, NOPE - GETH DIDN'T WANT IT EITHER.
The geth killed the science exploration to Haestrom, and shot down the scouting ship at Gei Hennom that was determining if the world was sutible for colonization. BOTH were quarian ships that weren't on hostile missions, but the geth shot them frirst. The quarians don't have a shoot-first policy with others -- not even Legion was shot, and he was fresh off a Cerberus Ship with an accused tratior by his side.

JOKER, He says that if anynoe found out that she was an "unshackeld A.I with Reaper-based code, they would... lynch you." REAPER CODE.
Also, the Law prohibiting the aggrivation of A.I.s might have something to do with that. The law is that you (A) can't actively aggrivate currently-existing A.I.s, as they are either, like the geth, a faction with signifigant military power, or being actively used by governments, lilke the "Eliza" A.I. at Gagarian Station. ( You do not create new A.I.s without Council licencing. Doing so is a punsihable offence. © Reaper Tech is illegal, and the Council mandates that all examples must be destroyed. (On Liara's Broker Terminal in ME3, you will get a store discount for opting to destroy Reaper tech rather then reverse-engineer it.) The Council says that Reaper-Tech scavenged from Reapers, like Sovergien, is an absolute No-No.
And LoL, what? That's YOU, not me. You are the one that exaggerates constantly.
And AGAIN, it's because they would re-engage her A.I. Shackles if they found out.  And when the techs go into her core to re-apply her Shackles, they will likely stumble on the Reaper Tech in her core, and report it. After that, she will be shut down permenately.
I mean, seriously, this isn't that hard to figure out  -- It's a simple "A leads to B leads to C" domino effect. No hand-waiving or anything.

  

It is a fact that the Geth never tell us they recognized these ships as diplomatic.  The only way to disprove this fact would be to provide proof that they did.  Feel free to provide that proof.


When organics just tried to kill them and they refuse to talk to you, it is a sign they still view you as hostile. When they shoot your ships down and you keep sending more, it is a sign that organics are stupid. How many ships must be shot down before organics should have realized the Geth want nothing to do with them? How many? Give me a number.

Silver, what tribe was this great uncle from?  The vast majority of Native Americans were displaced from their ancestral homes. Even if you lived on a reservation of this tribe, most of the reservations are not the real homes of Native Americans. The Europeans took their lands and then gave them sh*tty land they did not want that had no relation to their ancestral lands. Most of the Native Americans who lived east of the Mississippi were forced to move west so that the Europeans could have their land after the Indian Removal Act of 1830. This event was called the Trail of Tears because a sh*t load of them died from disease and starvation en route. Tell you what, go research this great uncle and then when you have an idea of what tribe he is from, let me know and we can discuss whether you belong wherever it is you are currently living.  My guess is using this Quarian homeworld logic, you don't belong there and you are squatting on some other Native American tribes land. 

And no I have not said I should vacate America because I don’t believe people still have rights to land their people haven’t lived on for 300 years. Whatever horrific and terrible thing that occurred 300 years ago to displace the original inhabitants is over and done with.  Life goes on. 

Umm, the Geth are prejudiced too. Did you miss where I said that? They are prejudiced because their creators taught them about prejudice. The difference is the Quarians decided to kill prior to a single Quarian being killed by a Geth. The Geth decided to kill after being killed by the Quarians. 

The Quarians stand down because they have little choice. The Geth have reaper code and can destroy them. They can no longer win and Legion already told you the Quarians only attack when they think they can win.

Please provide a link to where Joker says this. Also, why doesn’t EDI just pretend to be a normal AI then? Can she walk around the Citadel as just an AI and lie about having Reaper Tech? Or does she have to pretend to be a VI? I am pretty sure when they were fooling Samantha Traynor, they did not tell Sam that EDI was a non-Reaper Tech AI. They lied to her and pretended EDI was a VI when they could have easily lied and told her EDI was just a regular AI.

Modifié par remydat, 15 juin 2013 - 06:23 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

YOUR statement is completely untrue. In fact, that video contridicts all your claims.
"Since the attack" does NOT mean "directly prior to the attack." There is no timestamp. Tali's words state that she has not had contact with Legion since after the Admirals rejected the offer. She states that she stopped trying to contact it when the Admirals decided on War. She says that she has NOT SPOKEN TO LEGION since the attack. Also, she says that she could have warned it about the attack but didn't, meaning that these events happened BEFORE THE QUARIANS EVER ATTACKED.
ONCE AGAIN, You areRANTING ABOUT NOTHING. "Since the Attack: is just a damn lable for the conversation -- not even a spoken line of diolouge.

Prior to selecting the option AND SINCE THE ATTACK

Tali - Legion and I sent a few messages.  I was hoping we could try negotiation but I was outvoted 3-2.  Admiral Koris was the only one who believed it could work.

The above statement confirms that while Tali and Legion were still sending messages after he returned to the consensus, The Quarians voted against negotiation.  Why else would she ask the Quarians to vote on negotiation if her and Legion were not still commmunicating?

Then right after that statement you select  the dialogue wheel option AND SINCE THE ATTACK.

Shep - Any idea where Legion is now?
Tali - No, in our last message he told me the Geth were having trouble reaching consensus.
Shep - And then nothing?
Tali - Maybe it was fighting the reaper takeover or maybe it didn't want to give intell to an enemy.

The dialogue wheel makes it clear the above discussion is about events since the Quarian attacked.  Tali tells Shep that in our last message which was since the Quarians launched their attack Legion told her the Geth were having trouble reaching consensus.  She does not reveal what they were having trouble reaching consensus over. 

We know that after the Quarians attack the Reapers extended an offer.  We know that until the Dyson Bubble was attacked the Geth did not accept this offer.  Thus, Tali was telling Shep that SINCE THE ATTACK, she spoke to Legion and her told her the Geth were having trouble reaching consensus.  Legion did not tell her the thing they were having trouble over was decided whether to accept Reaper Aid because as Tali notes, the Quarian attack means Tali and Legion are now enemies and  just like Tali refused to warn Legion about the Quarian attack, Legion refuses to reveal the whole truth to her after the Quarian attack, the Geth were approached by the Reapers.

AGAIN, you twist words into something that does not exist.

Let me point out "FEW MESSAGES," indicating that Tali only had limited or sparce contact with Legion. Likely six or so messages. The above does NOT prove prove your point, because since Legion was the ONLY geth working for peace, it means he was NOT re-intrigrated into the Consensis. He went back into the Veil -- he was NOT re-intigrated into the Consensis at that time. Otherwise, he would have had support from more geth then just himslef. Legion only cut contact after the Consensis directed him to. And also, you are making the gross assumption that this took place during or after the fleet comitted to war, or even voted on it. You do realize that this ISN'T THE CASE, RIGHT? That this was BEFORE THE FLEET COMMITTED TO WAR? According to Tali, the war vote was cast after peace was labled impossible. Tali says as much on the geth dreadnought.
Sorry, but once again, you're just streatching the facts to suit your view.

And AGAIN, DEAD WRONG. The diolouge wheel is a lable -- nothing more, nothing less. And that interpertation of yours is completely contridicted by Tali's words, stating that Legion cut contact BEFORE the quarians invaded. She is stating that Legion didn't contact her since the attack, she is saying that the last message Legion gave her was PRIOR TO THE INVASION, and speculated that Legion didn't send messages since the attack.
You have AGAIN confussed the timing and meaning. That message was the last thingt Legion ever said since before the quarians attacked. Tali said that Legion has not sent any messages "SINCE THE ATTACK."
Also, you are making some pretty big assumptions, like the fact that Legion would tell Tali about geth troubles.

[Veganterror]

Who cares anymore?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1. You haven't either. You are the one guilty of trying to parrade opinion as fact when you have absolutly nothing. You just now stated that you have the "right" to not accept anything you don't want to -- the epitimy of a prejudiced view.

And nither is it a warning. It's a sign of indifference. Silence can be interperted any number of ways. Including as simple lack of intrest. Again, if you want to diffinitively turn someone away, you have to actively tell them, because organics are not psychic.

ONCE AGAIN, you blatently ignore the point -- as long as people live, then the land they evolved on is rightfully theirs. NO execptions. The humans have right to the worlds they settled, as do the quarians. And FYI, the geth don't live on those worlds either. They live in stations. Rannoch is the sole exception. Legion even spicifically says that Rannoch IS NOT THEIRS, and that they don't believe in the concept of a homeworld. Sorry pal, but accoridng to Legion himself, Rannoch is the QUARIANS homeworld and STILL is. It doesn't belong to the geth.

Dad has a Native-American great-uncle AND my mom's side had ancestors who were colonists that setteled side by side with the locals in the last century, not drive them out.
In other words, you just made an ass of yourself. Again. Besides, I already DO have plans to move -- I want to see europe in the future.
You've basically also just said that you yourself should vacate America too -- you've also made clear indication that you have mixed up "racisim" and "fear" in this debate. You have done nothing but promote prejudice and oppression. You advicate for supremist policies anbd "might makes right" ideals, insetad of mutual cooperation and understanding. You want genocide instead of co-existance. You think that "I take it, it's mine" is lawfu and just. It's not -- It's racial conquest and domination. Both things I thought you claimed to hate, yet you seem to advocate.
Seriously, drop your double-standards already.


2. Likewise, the geth exterminated millions of quarian civilians that had no part in what their government decided. So, fault for fault - AGAIN, it all equals out. They are the SAME. Both sides reacted in fear and self-preservation. NOT out of a hatered, or a supremicy complex. NITHER SIDE had these traits. And you once again advocating prejudice in a discussion where it does not apply. You advocate situations that make you a hypocrite.
Also, FYI, The quarians didn't judge all synthetics based on the geth, considering how the quarians have multiple V.I. Operated Cybernetic Implants, and have V.I.s operating the majority of their suit systems. The geth are just as guilty and faultible of their own actions. They are just as contrite as the quarians. End of stroy.

So the quarians standing down at Shepard's request and peacefully intigrating with the geth at the End of the Rannoch war was a massive illusion? Seriously, lose the headcannon-fuled double-standards.
The geth didn't support peace EITHER. I didn't anything about Legion having a delegation of geth trying for peace -- he acted alone, in DEFIANCE of the rest of the geth. So, NOPE - GETH DIDN'T WANT IT EITHER.
The geth killed the science exploration to Haestrom, and shot down the scouting ship at Gei Hennom that was determining if the world was sutible for colonization. BOTH were quarian ships that weren't on hostile missions, but the geth shot them frirst. The quarians don't have a shoot-first policy with others -- not even Legion was shot, and he was fresh off a Cerberus Ship with an accused tratior by his side.

JOKER, He says that if anynoe found out that she was an "unshackeld A.I with Reaper-based code, they would... lynch you." REAPER CODE.
Also, the Law prohibiting the aggrivation of A.I.s might have something to do with that. The law is that you (A) can't actively aggrivate currently-existing A.I.s, as they are either, like the geth, a faction with signifigant military power, or being actively used by governments, lilke the "Eliza" A.I. at Gagarian Station. ( You do not create new A.I.s without Council licencing. Doing so is a punsihable offence. © Reaper Tech is illegal, and the Council mandates that all examples must be destroyed. (On Liara's Broker Terminal in ME3, you will get a store discount for opting to destroy Reaper tech rather then reverse-engineer it.) The Council says that Reaper-Tech scavenged from Reapers, like Sovergien, is an absolute No-No.
And LoL, what? That's YOU, not me. You are the one that exaggerates constantly.
And AGAIN, it's because they would re-engage her A.I. Shackles if they found out.  And when the techs go into her core to re-apply her Shackles, they will likely stumble on the Reaper Tech in her core, and report it. After that, she will be shut down permenately.
I mean, seriously, this isn't that hard to figure out  -- It's a simple "A leads to B leads to C" domino effect. No hand-waiving or anything.

  

It is a fact that the Geth never tell us they recognized these ships as diplomatic.  The only way to disprove this fact would be to provide proof that they did.  Feel free to provide that proof.


When organics just tried to kill them and they refuse to talk to you, it is a sign they still view you as hostile. When they shoot your ships down and you keep sending more, it is a sign that organics are stupid. How many ships must be shot down before organics should have realized the Geth want nothing to do with them? How many? Give me a number.

Silver, what tribe was this great uncle from?  The vast majority of Native Americans were displaced from their ancestral homes. Even if you lived on a reservation of this tribe, most of the reservations are not the real homes of Native Americans. The Europeans took their lands and then gave them sh*tty land they did not want that had no relation to their ancestral lands. Most of the Native Americans who lived east of the Mississippi were forced to move west so that the Europeans could have their land after the Indian Removal Act of 1830. This event was called the Trail of Tears because a sh*t load of them died from disease and starvation en route. Tell you what, go research this great uncle and then when you have an idea of what tribe he is from, let me know and we can discuss whether you belong wherever it is you are currently living.  My guess is using this Quarian homeworld logic, you don't belong there and you are squatting on some other Native American tribes land. 

And no I have not said I should vacate America because I don’t believe people still have rights to land their people haven’t lived on for 300 years. Whatever horrific and terrible thing that occurred 300 years ago to displace the original inhabitants is over and done with.  Life goes on. 

Umm, the Geth are prejudiced too. Did you miss where I said that? They are prejudiced because their creators taught them about prejudice. The difference is the Quarians decided to kill prior to a single Quarian being killed by a Geth. The Geth decided to kill after being killed by the Quarians. 

The Quarians stand down because they have little choice. The Geth have reaper code and can destroy them. They can no longer win and Legion already told you the Quarians only attack when they think they can win.

Please provide a link to where Joker says this. Also, why doesn’t EDI just pretend to be a normal AI then? Can she walk around the Citadel as just an AI and lie about having Reaper Tech? Or does she have to pretend to be a VI? I am pretty sure when they were fooling Samantha Traynor, they did not tell Sam that EDI was a non-Reaper Tech AI. They lied to her and pretended EDI was a VI when they could have easily lied and told her EDI was just a regular AI.

The proof is Geth scanning technology. The tech on the Normandy alone can detect lifeforms, technology signatures, and actively scan for active engines and weapons. The geth are listed as having scanning that is generations more advanced then the public standard. WIth this in mind, it means the geth's scanning technology would be able to determine with 100% accuracy wheather of not these ships were lying. In other words, it is completely and utterly impossible for the geth to not have known.
So, now that I HAVE provoded my proof, provide YOURS -- what reason was there to think these ships were "spies" when the geth were technologiclly capable of determining otherwise with a singe scan?

Organics that were disowned by the faction currently talking to you, meaning that they have pubicly disavowed support, knowledge, or involvement with the faction that attacked you. Meaining there is no reasor to attack since they are not affliliated with the race that attcked you, and are making an open offer of peace. You are advoicating prejudice and racisim by saying that you should judge everyone by the actions of one group. And even then, you STILL fail to comprehend the fact that there was NO RACIAL HATE OR SUPREMICY COMPLEX between any of these factions. It was mutual fear of the actions the other took -- it had Absolutly nothing to do with how they were born. Quit mixing up the arguements -- this is completely seperate from whatever racial grudge you have.
And AGAIN, where is it stated that silence to hails equals "no?" Last I checked, silence means "indifference," not a diffinitive refusal. You only get a diffinitive refusal if the other actively refuses your proposal.

Potawatomi. Part of the groups that lived on Fox River. My dad's relitives were NOT one of those displaced -- they stayed on their land by opting to live in the civilized areas. They still practice their culture, but mostly live in the towns with the rest of us "Colonial Americans." I live in the south, close to the border, which is that land. In other words, this land is my family's right, too.
Also, you're tangent has nothing to do with the point I was making. The point I was making was that co-existance and co-habitation is possible -- they have full right to their lands, and we should work to co-habitate with them. You on the other hand seem to be incapable of understanding, or of even remotely comprehending that, thinking things must be either black or white -- one extreime or the other. The world doesn't work like that, pal -- it's all a mass of gray. You're arguement has nothing to do with anything I said. Because the geth did not claim the land -- they watch over it. They themsleves explisitly say they do not own the land, nor have any claim to it, and say it is and always was the quarians. Since the GETH THEMSELVES state this, it realy isn't up for debate -- both sides agree that Rannoch is quarian property and right. Since the quarians have a physilogial need for Rannoch's ecology, all the more so.
So no, My family is not comparible to this.

YES THEY DO. If they still live, and they're ancestors lived there, they have right to the land.
You're logic is basically stating that Humans should not reclaim any of the land the Reapers took. You're claim is that humans should have let the turians own Shanxi after pushing off humans. You are basically saying that if someone drives you out, you should just lay down and take it. You are basically saying that you shouldn't fight for what's yours because "they're stronger, so it's theirs." In other words, you are saying "submission is preferable."
That is racial domination and supremicy.

But AGAIN, you fail to realize that THERE IS NO PREJUDICE ON EITHER SIDE!. The geth feel absolutly NOTHING about organics -- NO hate, NO concern. Just indiference. Same as the quarians do when re-taking Rannoch -- they just prioritize their existance over that of a race that seemingly sided with the Reapers long ago. Both sides act out of mutual fear of the others PAST AND POTENTAL ACTIONS. They do NOT possess any form of racial hate or supremicy complex to the other. Did YOU completely miss that?
Once again, you are confusing "prejudice" with "fear." This is a completely seperate debate about actions, not race. Stop trying to bring in something that has no relation what-so-ever into this debate.

NO. The quarians stand down because they know the geth are willing to negotiate. If the Reapers completely surround you're fleet, would you stand down?
If the quarians thought the geth were going to just kill them anyway, they would not have stopped firing. They only do when they realize the geth they are seeing now are not the same ones responcible for the Battle of the Citadel.


Play from 7:19 onward. Joker will say that if they learn that she is a REAPER -CODE based A.I., they will kill her. He could have just said "A.I." but he doesn't. He spicifically mentions the Reaper Code/Tech being a concern.
And AGAIN, the Council thinks that "normal" A.I. means the geth -- which seemingly sided with the Reapers of their own free will three years ago. And AGAIN, if they know that she is an A.I. at ALL, the Alliance will send teams to make sure she is properly monitored. A.I. are not to be used outside of monitored work systems. They are forbiddon for personal use on ships. They find out, they will send Alliance teams to either decomission her and remove her from the Normandy, or failing that, re-enable her A.I. Shackles. Traynor was unaware that she was even an A.I., not knowing until Shepard personally tells her. If they kenw she was an A.I. --- A CERBERUS A.I, what do you think would happen?
It was NOT just being an A.I. -- It was being an A.I. created by a xeonophobic supremist/terrorist group. And one made from combining Reaper tech with the Hannible V.I. program from the Luna incident.

[silverexile17s]

Veganterror wrote...

Who cares anymore?

You posted, didn't you?

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

AGAIN, you twist words into something that does not exist.

Let me point out "FEW MESSAGES," indicating that Tali only had limited or sparce contact with Legion. Likely six or so messages. The above does NOT prove prove your point, because since Legion was the ONLY geth working for peace, it means he was NOT re-intrigrated into the Consensis. He went back into the Veil -- he was NOT re-intigrated into the Consensis at that time. Otherwise, he would have had support from more geth then just himslef. Legion only cut contact after the Consensis directed him to. And also, you are making the gross assumption that this took place during or after the fleet comitted to war, or even voted on it. You do realize that this ISN'T THE CASE, RIGHT? That this was BEFORE THE FLEET COMMITTED TO WAR? According to Tali, the war vote was cast after peace was labled impossible. Tali says as much on the geth dreadnought.
Sorry, but once again, you're just streatching the facts to suit your view.

And AGAIN, DEAD WRONG. The diolouge wheel is a lable -- nothing more, nothing less. And that interpertation of yours is completely contridicted by Tali's words, stating that Legion cut contact BEFORE the quarians invaded. She is stating that Legion didn't contact her since the attack, she is saying that the last message Legion gave her was PRIOR TO THE INVASION, and speculated that Legion didn't send messages since the attack.
You have AGAIN confussed the timing and meaning. That message was the last thingt Legion ever said since before the quarians attacked. Tali said that Legion has not sent any messages "SINCE THE ATTACK."
Also, you are making some pretty big assumptions, like the fact that Legion would tell Tali about geth troubles.

Please quote where Tali says Legion cut contact before the quarians invaded.  She said Legion left but they were still communicating.  Please provide a link and the exact words that say this because I am not sure where you are getting this idea from.  No point moving forward until I understand where this mysterious dialogue is coming from.

[remydat]

Silver,

Please provide a link where the Geth use this alleged technology and confirming any Mass Effect media that those ships were diplomatic.

Again, what crime did the Geth commit that required their entire race be exterminated? The Geth responded to racism with racism. Both are wrong but the Geth would not have became racist if not for the Quarian attempt to exterminate them. What did the Geth do to deserve extermination? What?

As for the Powatomi, they had to give up their lands in Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, and Illoinois as part of the Treaty of Prairie Du Chien and Treaty of Chicago. They were given lands west of the Mississippi as a result which is exactly what I said. I will admit I can't recall if they ever owned lands west of the Mississippi prior to this.

And sorry, if this thread were asking why the Geth and Quarians can't coexist, I would say there is no reason they cannot. This thread did not start on the basis of coexistence. This thread started on the basis that the Geth who were born on Rannoch should adandon their homeworld to appease the Quarians. I choose peace during the Rannoch arc precisely because I believe in coexistence. My comments are about someone today being forced to vacate land they live on today in order to give it to someone whose ancestors lived on it 300 years ago. That is what I was saying makes no sense. I personally have no problem with coexistence. The OP apparently does because he/she never suggested it. He/she wanted the Geth to leave.

Prejudice is not about always about blind hate. It is about prejudging hence the name. If you prejudge an entire group then you are prejudice. The Geth never did anything to the Quarians that warranted the Quarians judging all Geth as needing to be exterminated and various organic groups never did anything to the Geth that warranted them judging all organics as wanting to destroy them. That is why both are prejudiced.

Post a vid where Gherel stands down without being told the Geth will kill them? You can't. Doesn't exist.

At 3:25 of the vid you posted, Joker says they ignore the unshackled AI. He says nothing about Reaper Code. He says they ignore it because he told them she is his mobility assistance mech ie he has to lie about the fact that EDI is an unshackled AI. The fact she also has RC is just another reason for her to fear but she still has to fear being an unshackled AI period. At 10:38, EDI says the crew lied to the Alliance and did not say she was a true AI and still thought she had VI programming constraights. Again, no mention of the issue being she had Reaper Tech.

So the dialogue makes clear being a true or unshackled AI would like result in EDI being attacked or decomissioned or whatever you want to call it. That is discrimination.

Modifié par remydat, 16 juin 2013 - 12:53 .

[KaiserShep]

I'd like to see the Alliance try to decommission EDI in the middle of a reaper war. They'd probably have to (try to) destroy the Normandy at that point, to their own detriment. Engineer Adams would be top of the list of potential targets to have Javik throw out the airlock, just in case. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 16 juin 2013 - 01:16 .

[remydat]

Yeah but that does not mean they allow unshackled AI to exist in peace.  It just means they are not stupid enough to try and decomission EDI admist a reaper war.  Organics are always willing to accept thinks they don't like when it benefits them or in times of crisis.  It's when they don't need such things that you see how they really feel.

Modifié par remydat, 16 juin 2013 - 01:19 .

[KaiserShep]

Post-reaper war is another story. There's any number of factors that could come into play at that point. If the reapers are destroyed, there's much less incentive to pursue EDI's decommissioning. Of course, this is a moot point as EDI is gone, but if she did survive the magic wave, in which case the geth would have also, it should be expected that a lot of tunes would change regarding AI. After all, they helped stop the war along with everyone else, and not everyone is going to share Javik's whole argument that they might be "ridding the galaxy of competition." Turning against the AI's that helped during the war is not at all a guarantee, and considering some of the more notable voices left to speak on their behalf (one of which would be Shepard), it could very well turn in their favor. What are they going to do, just deny the person who was responsible for rallying the bulk of the galaxy's fleet against total annihilation, and ended the war? I imagine considerable weight would be applied to whatever he/she has to say after that. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 16 juin 2013 - 01:33 .

[Giantdeathrobot]

Well, to answer the OP, the doylist explanation is that the writers wanted to end the Geth-Quarian conflict in ME3.

The watsonian one? There are options. Maybe they see it as their home, or a prize they claimed when they won.  Maybe Rannoch has ressources they need (scavenging the ruins of the Quarians). Their Dyson Sphere (to where a massive amount of Geth programs were already stored) is already in the process of being built there, so why move? They don,t need Rannoch as much as the Quarians need it, but somehow I don't see the Creator's fate bringing robot tears to their robot eyes. They didn't exterminate them, beyond that what the Quarians do and how they fare is probably none of their concern. I'm not saying they're right in all this, just trying to explore their PoV. And of course once the Quarians barge in and destroy the Sphere then there's no turning back.

That said, I think no side has any sort of moral high ground. They both tried to genocide each other and then lived in isolation, the Geth were just better at it. They both did stupid mistakes. I'm really not a fan of people trying to take a moral high ground in the case of a friggin genocide. Who are we, the Daleks?

Also, saying the Geth are just machines is about as right as saying the Quarians are just animals. With that kind of **** logic you might as well believe the Reapers were right for wanting to exterminate those animals using primitive machines.

[remydat]

Kaiser,

True, post war they might decide to get along but I view it more as the US - Russian alliance where post WWII, it fell apart quite quickly without the threat of mutual destrucution at the hands of a common enemy.

None of which actually disproves the fact that EDI still has to hide the fact she is an AI because if she didn't, in a non-Reaper world she would be discriminated against and possible destroyed. She is not free. She is a slave just a well cared for slave because the crew respects her and maintains the facade that she is under their complete control as a VI not an Unshackled AI.

Modifié par remydat, 16 juin 2013 - 02:44 .

[remydat]

Giant,

The issue though is that in these debates, the OP typically always forces you to choose. In earlier debates it was who would you save if you could only save one. In this debate, it is basically requiring you to decide who should have Rannoch rather than asking whether they can peacefully co-exist.

I think most people choose peace but these debates always require a choice of one or the other which means you have to then decide who you consider to be more guilty or just ignore guilt all together and vote based on emotion.

[KaiserShep]

What would've happened if the reapers didn't exist doesn't really matter. Any number of things could've been different. There's no use trying to conjure up hypotheticals when countless factors may be unknown. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 16 juin 2013 - 03:04 .

[remydat]

Street,

I was referring to guilt in relation to the Geth and Quarians not you personally. I don't care what you think personally.  It is clear that the Geth and Quarians have committed violence against each other.

However, when viewing the Geth and Quarians, people either decide one of them is more guilty than the other or like you said ignore the question of guilt and decide to make a decision on emotion which in your case is that you don't give a ****.

Modifié par remydat, 16 juin 2013 - 03:08 .

[remydat]

KaiserShep,

Of course it does because EDI is still throughout the story hiding who she is because in a world before knowledge of the Reapers was known, she did not feel safe admitting what she was.  Hell in a world with the Reapers she still doesn't feel safe admitting what she is and neither does the crew of the Normandy.

If EDI was safe to admit she was an unshackled AI then Joker wouldn't have to pretend she is his mobility assistance mech and EDI would not have to lie to the Alliance soldiers and claim she had VI programming restrictions.  She wouldn't have pretended to be a VI to Traynor.  You can't just up and pretend discrimination against her does not exist.

Modifié par remydat, 16 juin 2013 - 03:09 .

[KaiserShep]

Ultimately, this is all just a matter of whose head-canon is preferred. Technically, the reapers were known before EDI conceals the truth about what she is. Funnily enough though, Shepard seems to have no qualms with telling people what EDI is to various crewmembers. Engineer Adams tried to disconnect EDI from core systems, only to fail, but then ended up trusting her. Specialist Traynor didn't seem to take it all that hard either. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 16 juin 2013 - 03:13 .

[remydat]

Kaiser,

Nope, the rest of the galaxy did not believe the Reapers existed. That was much of the plot for ME1 and ME2.

And in any event, what is the point you are trying to make? Can EDI admit who she is publicly, yes or no? Not sure why you are trying to deny the obvious.

[KaiserShep]

The point I was making was that EDI's decommissioning after the war, provided she survived, is not a guarantee. I don't think anything else matters at that point. Obviously she had to conceal her identity during the war, but that doesn't say anything for what she would've had to do afterward. Again, this is all a matter of head-canon and what we consider the most likely. What would've happened in a non-reaper setting, as far as I'm concerned, does not matter. EDI would likely not exist, and the Quarians would probably have either wiped out the geth, or gotten themselves wiped out trying.

[remydat]

KaiserShep wrote...

The point I was making was that EDI's decommissioning after the war, provided she survived, is not a guarantee. I don't think anything else matters at that point. Obviously she had to conceal her identity during the war, but that doesn't say anything for what she would've had to do afterward. Again, this is all a matter of head-canon and what we consider the most likely. What would've happened in a non-reaper setting, as far as I'm concerned, does not matter. EDI would likely not exist, and the Quarians would probably have either wiped out the geth, or gotten themselves wiped out trying.

Yeah I already agreed it was not a guarantee but that was never the main point being made.  The main point being made was EDI is subject to discrimination because of what she is.

[KaiserShep]

Then I guess some signals were crossed. I agree that EDI was facing discrimination. I don't think anyone can deny that unless they ignore just about everything said about her.