1071 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

StreetMagic wrote...

Not giving a **** has nothing to do with "emotions". If anything, I think the whole AI situation is framed by trying to tug at our emotions. Nothing indicates the Geth are "alive", other than visual cues and voice acting. Eyebrow twitches, the way one phrase is spoken, etc..  It's even more apparent in the case with Tricia Helfer and EDI. She's entertaining and did a good job. If anything, I think I have to guard emotions and detach just to play through any of this. I refuse to look at them in too sympathetic a light or frame the whole AI situation in moral terms.

Now perhaps we are using the word emotions differently.  Decisions based on logic require rational thought.  Any decision not made using rational thought I consider made because of emotion.  It is not rational to pretend the Geth or EDI are not alive when the game makes it clear they are.  You do so because you have some emotional attachment to the Quarians and thus need to define the Geth as not alive so you can pretend they didn't try to exterminate a living species or you have an emotional desire to kill the Reapers with a clean conscience.

Now, fine you disagree.  Make a logical argument using evidence from the game that supports the idea that the Geth and EDI are not alive?  

[remydat]

KaiserShep wrote...

Then I guess some signals were crossed. I agree that EDI was facing discrimination. I don't think anyone can deny that unless they ignore just about everything said about her.

Yeah then we largely agree.

[remydat]

The fact you can debate a point doesn't mean the game doesn't make it clear that they are alive. It just means Shep can be prejudiced against their form of life like anyone else.

And what exactly is this argument? I don't even remember what the other side claims that is based in science. Even Xen doesn't even make a scientific argument for the Geth not being alive as far as I am aware. All she says is that they are like a gun or some sh*t. That is not science.

[remydat]

Those conversations merely show that organics consider life to have to be individualistic.  That is an entirely biased point of view based on our own individualistic existence.  And we are restricted by our DNA and chemistry.  If I gave someone the write drug cocktail, I could program them to become more or less agressive by say ramping up their testosterone.  AI can just manipulate their code at will while we are still figuring out how to use drugs or gene therapy to manipulate our behaviour.

But fair enough.

Modifié par remydat, 16 juin 2013 - 04:19 .

[remydat]

StreetMagic wrote...

....And if you ask Legion about them panicking with the mega structure, he's dismissive and resorts back to a machine logic rationale for why they fought back. Even Legion doesn't want you to think of the Geth in the same way as organics. His thinking is mostly utilitarian (besides the Shep armor thing, but that's a whole other can of worms).


edit: Looks like you edited your post. It was something about the mega structure. Oh well.

Yeah my bad, I changed it to more directly respond to your last post as I hadn't seen it when I started to post.. 

Legion is not dismissive.  At some point (will have to look for the vid), I am pretty sure he says the result was their intelligence dimmed which made it easier to ally with the Reapers.  Just because their form of life is different does not mean it is not life.  Again, just seems you seem to be defining life based on how closely it resembles organic life.

Modifié par remydat, 16 juin 2013 - 04:24 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

AGAIN, you twist words into something that does not exist.

Let me point out "FEW MESSAGES," [/b]indicating that Tali only had limited or sparce contact with Legion. Likely six or so messages. The above does NOT prove prove your point, because since Legion was the ONLY geth working for peace, it means he was NOT re-intrigrated into the Consensis. He went back into the Veil -- he was NOT re-intigrated into the Consensis at that time. Otherwise, he would have had support from more geth then just himslef. Legion only cut contact after the Consensis directed him to. And also, you are making the gross assumption that this took place during or after the fleet comitted to war, or even voted on it. You do realize that this ISN'T THE CASE, RIGHT? That this was BEFORE THE FLEET COMMITTED TO WAR? According to Tali, the war vote was cast after peace was labled impossible. Tali says as much on the geth dreadnought.
Sorry, but once again, you're just streatching the facts to suit your view.

And AGAIN, DEAD WRONG. The diolouge wheel is a lable -- nothing more, nothing less. And that interpertation of yours is completely contridicted by Tali's words, stating that Legion cut contact BEFORE the quarians invaded. She is stating that Legion didn't contact her since the attack, she is saying that the last message Legion gave her was PRIOR TO THE INVASION, and speculated that Legion didn't send messages since the attack.
You have AGAIN confussed the timing and meaning. That message was the last thingt Legion ever said since before the quarians attacked. Tali said that Legion has not sent any messages "SINCE THE ATTACK."
Also, you are making some pretty big assumptions, like the fact that Legion would tell Tali about geth troubles.

Please quote where Tali says Legion cut contact before the quarians invaded.  She said Legion left but they were still communicating.  Please provide a link and the exact words that say this because I am not sure where you are getting this idea from.  No point moving forward until I understand where this mysterious dialogue is coming from.

I don't have to -- YOU already did it for me. "SInce the attack" = "Zero messages sent between now, and the invasion." You yourself provided my proof. It means that "Since the attack" there was no contact with Legion. Zero messages sent by Legion in the timeframe spanning the quarian attack, and right now. YOU provided my evidence. The problem was that you were streatching "Since the attack" into something it was not. I means that there was [b]No communication what-so-ever in that timeframe. The mystery was that you warped the words with your headcannon.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 17 juin 2013 - 06:13 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

Please provide a link where the Geth use this alleged technology and confirming any Mass Effect media that those ships were diplomatic.

Again, what crime did the Geth commit that required their entire race be exterminated? The Geth responded to racism with racism. Both are wrong but the Geth would not have became racist if not for the Quarian attempt to exterminate them. What did the Geth do to deserve extermination? What?

As for the Powatomi, they had to give up their lands in Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, and Illoinois as part of the Treaty of Prairie Du Chien and Treaty of Chicago. They were given lands west of the Mississippi as a result which is exactly what I said. I will admit I can't recall if they ever owned lands west of the Mississippi prior to this.

And sorry, if this thread were asking why the Geth and Quarians can't coexist, I would say there is no reason they cannot. This thread did not start on the basis of coexistence. This thread started on the basis that the Geth who were born on Rannoch should adandon their homeworld to appease the Quarians. I choose peace during the Rannoch arc precisely because I believe in coexistence. My comments are about someone today being forced to vacate land they live on today in order to give it to someone whose ancestors lived on it 300 years ago. That is what I was saying makes no sense. I personally have no problem with coexistence. The OP apparently does because he/she never suggested it. He/she wanted the Geth to leave.

Prejudice is not about always about blind hate. It is about prejudging hence the name. If you prejudge an entire group then you are prejudice. The Geth never did anything to the Quarians that warranted the Quarians judging all Geth as needing to be exterminated and various organic groups never did anything to the Geth that warranted them judging all organics as wanting to destroy them. That is why both are prejudiced.

Post a vid where Gherel stands down without being told the Geth will kill them? You can't. Doesn't exist.

At 3:25 of the vid you posted, Joker says they ignore the unshackled AI. He says nothing about Reaper Code. He says they ignore it because he told them she is his mobility assistance mech ie he has to lie about the fact that EDI is an unshackled AI. The fact she also has RC is just another reason for her to fear but she still has to fear being an unshackled AI period. At 10:38, EDI says the crew lied to the Alliance and did not say she was a true AI and still thought she had VI programming constraights. Again, no mention of the issue being she had Reaper Tech.

So the dialogue makes clear being a true or unshackled AI would like result in EDI being attacked or decomissioned or whatever you want to call it. That is discrimination.

Do you ever listen to Tali speak?. Geth scanning technology uses hyper-advanced sensor tech, allowing the most accurate of scans. I know this because Tali explains it to you directly, saying that the quarians exploited it for their viral weapon. The geth's scans are hyper-sensitive and extremely accurate -- to the point where flooding it with garbage data can bog down geth server processes. The problem was creating massive enought ammounts of junk data and flooding all geth sensors simoultaniously, to prevent other systems from auto-correcting. 
In other words -- Soruce = Tali explaining quarian viral weapon. The geth have hyper-advanced and accurate scanning tech.  So, how is it "alledged" when it's confirmed in-game, being the geth greatest ship-based strength - turned achilles heal by the quarians?
Sounds like you need to replay ME3 again.
Also, you once again failed to provide proof of why they would think they weren't diplomats. They weren't affliliated with the quarians, came under a banner of peace, made no effort to hide themselves, and the geth's scanning tech makes it impossible for the geth to ever fall victum to mistaking their intent. And AGAIN, the fact that there were no laws prohibiting A.I.s -- mearly monitoring them. These laws became strciter after the geth killed the peace ships.

Nope.  Again wrong.
First off, you mispelled it -- It's potawatomi. Secondly, My family and several others intigrated into the cities on that land, keeping their lands and their rights to it. They still practice their culture there. You're misconception is in claiming that they are banned from living there -- they are not.  Unlike the quarians are with the geth.

And yet, you repeately show a fundimental inability to accept that the geth are JUST AS MUCH AT FAULT FOR THIS. You are unwilling to accept that the geth are just as guilty of proporting or creating peace as the quarians are -- even just as unwilling to trust the other. And AGAIN, The geth themselves have openly stated Rannoch is NOT THEIR HOMEWORLD, because the geth do not BELIEVE in the concept of a homeworld, and have openly stated that Racnnoch is the QUARIANS world. Find me one time where ANY geth ever stated Rannoch was geth property. Find me one time they said Rannoch was theirs.
They NEVER DID. They live in space stations. They don't need a world. They DON'T RECGONIZE Rannoch as a "homeworld." The geth did not even evolve on Rannoch at ALL -- they evolved in labs, scattered trroughout quarian space. They do not possess a "homeworld" - something stated by Legion himself. And once again, you are guilty of judging the geth as if they are organics -- a racist judgement, according to Legion. The geth did not evolved on a "homeworld," do not possess a "homeworld" due to their decentralized mind and station-based lifestyle, and do not even believe in the concept of a "homeworld."
In all your headcannon, did you ever stop to realize that if the geth did consider Rannoch a "homeworld," that they would never even have bothered constructing their megastructure in the first place? They would have just stayed on Rannoch forever - they never would have began work on a megastructure at all if they saw Rannoch as a "homeworld" -- they would have just built solar collectors and giant server fortresses on the planet's surface. The geth's megastructure is the direct contridiction to you're entire claim -- if the geth saw Rannoch as their "home," they never would have tried to build a megastructure were all geth could live.
And AGAIN, you seem to once again fail to grasp important facts -- such as the fact that these are the same geth from 300 years ago. Didn't you say a while ago that "geth don't die?" That would mean that these geth are the same ones that forced the quarians from Rannoch. In fact, you're claim fits the quarians -- percicuted unfairly for something their ancestors did. These geth are the same ones as those from 300 years ago. Which you keep ignoring.
Also, As I said, as it is their land, they have the full right to return to it -- it's their ancestoral land. They have every right to live there. No one has the right to keep them from returning -- especally when they are physologically dependant on it.
These are all the things you repeatedly miss, and fail to recognize.

YOUR rendition of it it. You keep accusing the quarians of "hating" the geth and the geth being just in "hating" them, when neither side possesses these feelings. If someone kills peace envoys publicly, then it's not prejudging to assume them hostile -- especally when no reason is ever given to the attack. Prejudice is, and I quode, prejudements based on race, gender, class, creeed, age, religion, or disability -- None of which were involved in the geth and quarian's assumptions of each-other. They based their judgements off of the facts that they were aware of about each-other. It wasn't enough to render accurate judgement, but unlike what you advocate, it was not the result of a prejudgement based on any of the above discriminations. It was based on the little they knew about the other. What the quarians and geth did to each-other does not fit the discription of prejudice.
The geth were basically walking weapons. The quarians felt that having unstable killing machines, who were not given any emotions or morals to restrain them, was basically playing coin-toss with their entire families lives. At least @Kiwi said that even though it's not what she would have done, she understood what the quarians were thinking. You on the other hand have no intention of seeing anyone but the geth as pressured. You act so callously to someone not wanting to risk their family on a random unknown. Once again Neither side is guilty of prejudice.

Paragon choice. Shepard advocates that the quarians forced this situation on the geth -- something the quarians were unaware of until now.
Also, AGAIN dead wrong for one simple reason -- no one acts this way against the Reapers. When the Reapers are attacking the turians, they don't fall back despite being told that the Reapers wil lay them to waste.
Once again, you make false assumptions -- If Shepard had only stated that the geth were returning to full strength, the quarians would still not have stopped, because that would only drive them to wipe out the geth faster and harder. Letting them know that the geth don't wish to keep fighting is what stopps the war -- NOT any death threat.
Enemy getting stronger again = attack harder to compensate.
Enemy don't want to fight = standing down.
Not rocket science, remy.

You actually thought Joker was being serious in that statement?? LOL.
He LIED about what she was -- in the very next sentance, he says that he listed her as his "personal assistance mech," which is no different then any other LOKI mech. And EDI has already figened being a simple V.I. with people much smarter then store clerks, like the Alliance engineers. Once again, you are streatching diolouge into something it is not. Also, you seem to have MISSED the part of the Vid I showed you -- 7: 19. Or did you even WATCH that part? Where he says that he introduced EDI to the waiter as his assistance mech -- SAME as to the store clerk -- and EDI comments that he lied about what she was. If he lied to the waiter, he lied to the storekeepers.
Once again, you only see what you want to see, instead of what's right in front of you.
And AGAIN, the Reaper tech is not something she tells anyone outside of Engineer Adams. No one else is aware of it until much later -- and only after everyone learned to trust her.

So, ONCE AGAIN you twist words around -- no one knew that she was a Reaper-Based A.I. If they had, they would have decomissioned her. I mean, when you yourself pointed out that no one mentioned Reaper-Tech, didn't it cross your mind that it was because they didn't want anyone to know that?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

....And if you ask Legion about them panicking with the mega structure, he's dismissive and resorts back to a machine logic rationale for why they fought back. Even Legion doesn't want you to think of the Geth in the same way as organics. His thinking is mostly utilitarian (besides the Shep armor thing, but that's a whole other can of worms).


edit: Looks like you edited your post. It was something about the mega structure. Oh well.

Yeah my bad, I changed it to more directly respond to your last post as I hadn't seen it when I started to post.. 

Legion is not dismissive.  At some point (will have to look for the vid), I am pretty sure he says the result was their intelligence dimmed which made it easier to ally with the Reapers.  Just because their form of life is different does not mean it is not life.  Again, just seems you seem to be defining life based on how closely it resembles organic life.

When did Legion ever admit to the geth haveing any form of emotion? Legion himself even says that applying organic morality to an alien race like the geth is racist. Yet you keep doing it.
Also, Legion is an isolated system -- meaning that, being a completely self-contained set of programs, he would not have been affected by the loss of intelligence caused by the megastructure attack.
And again, you seem to keep ignoring the fact that since all life is different, it is biased and racist to judge all life using your own. Legion spicifically says that that form or judgement is benign anthromorphism - the Nth degree of racial judgment. He says that you must judge all life on it's own merits, and explistily avoid comparison to other races.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

I don't have to -- YOU already did it for me. "SInce the attack" = "Zero messages sent between now, and the invasion." You yourself provided my proof. It means that "Since the attack" there was no contact with Legion. Zero messages sent by Legion in the timeframe spanning the quarian attack, and right now. YOU provided my evidence. The problem was that you were streatching "Since the attack" into something it was not. I means that there was No communication what-so-ever in that timeframe. The mystery was that you warped the words with your headcannon.

But that is not what Tali says.  Shep asks if Tali knows where Legion is now.  Tali says no but says she spoke to him.  The dialogue wheel saying AND SINCE THE ATTACK indicates that Tali speaking to him was after the attack.  The last message was SINCE THE ATTACK.  The Geth were having trouble reaching consensus on whether to ally with the Reapers who only made the offer SINCE THE ATTACK.  That is the only thing they could be having trouble reaching consensus on because Tali already told you the Quarians voted against negotiation so the Geth would have no reason to be discussing anything else.

Shep - Any idea where Legion is now?
Tali - No, in our last message he told me the Geth were having trouble reaching consensus.
Shep - And then nothing?
Tali - Maybe it was fighting the reaper takeover or maybe it didn't want to give intell to an enemy.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

When did Legion ever admit to the geth haveing any form of emotion? Legion himself even says that applying organic morality to an alien race like the geth is racist. Yet you keep doing it.
Also, Legion is an isolated system -- meaning that, being a completely self-contained set of programs, he would not have been affected by the loss of intelligence caused by the megastructure attack.
And again, you seem to keep ignoring the fact that since all life is different, it is biased and racist to judge all life using your own. Legion spicifically says that that form or judgement is benign anthromorphism - the Nth degree of racial judgment. He says that you must judge all life on it's own merits, and explistily avoid comparison to other races.

The discussion with Street Magic is he is denying the Geth are alive.  Stick to the topic.  This has nothing to do with emotions or judging living races differently.  This has to do with whether the Geth are alive.  You seem to think they are so not sure why you are responding and running on with other sh*t.  I don't care about this other sh*t.  Are the Geth alive or not is was the topic of this particular discussion. 

[KaiserShep]

Whether the geth are alive or not was also terribly mishandled by the writing, but then the same thing is done to EDI. Legion tells Shepard that if they upload the reaper code, they would be "alive" and they could help. What the heck does that mean? All this time, the geth were *not* alive? EDI develops along the way, and then says that she's "alive" after Synthesis. It's as if the writers were implying that it wasn't until they got upgraded that they were alive in the first place.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 17 juin 2013 - 02:34 .

[remydat]

Kasier,

Legion says with reaper code they would be FULLY EVOLVED AI which translates to them being more alive if you will. Without Reaper Code, they need to be networked with each other in order to be alive. The big drawback is that if you kill enough programs the rest of the Geth become dumber.

With Reaper code, they are alive even if they aren't networked together. They still network to share data but their lives are not dependent on being networked.

So in short, currently the Geth are networked life and with the reaper code they become individual life.  Both are still life.  It's just that some organics in the game don't seem to consider networked life as real life.

Modifié par remydat, 17 juin 2013 - 03:24 .

[remydat]

Silver,

There is no evidence the Geth scanned these ships and determined they were diplomatic. You are using head canon. The fact they have this tech is not proof that they used this tech and confirmed these ships came in peace. For all we know they used this tech and found out the organics were lying and that is why they blew them up. Either scenario is possible because the game never says anything about this. Neither of us have proof of what the Geth thought. That is the point.

You missed my point on the potawatomi. At one point, I thought you lived in Iowa and you mentioned the Fox River so I assumed you meant Fox River Iowa. If so a large majority of the Potawatomi were moved west in the 1830s so that is not their ancestral home. If you meant Fox River Wisconsin then your family would have been one of the lucky few who managed to remain as again most were forced to move west. And no one claimed anyone was banned from living there. Once again, the OP wants the Geth to abandon Rannoch which is what I disagreed. Europeans are not abandoning America and giving it back to Native Americans. They are SHARING. I have no problem with SHARING land.  The OP does.

The Geth are guilty. They are just not equally guilty IMO. The people more guilty are the people who started it. If two groups commit similar crimes and I am forced to choose between the two, I choose based on who started it.

The Geth have servers on Rannoch. This is confirmed in the game. They have bases on Rannoch. This is confirmed in the game. The Geth hold Rannoch until such time as they see fit to give it back to the Quarians or they are exterminated.

The Geth can die if you kill them and they have no backups. This is proven by the megastructure attack. And you assume no new Geth were created since the MW. That is never stated in the game. The Quarians would have no reason to create more Geth than can fit in mobile platforms or on server hardware yet we know Legion says they don’t have enough mobile platforms or server hardware to store all the Geth. So presumably the Geth have created new programs since the MW.

The Quarians attacked the Geth because they prejudged them. They prejudged the Geth guilty for a crime the Geth had yet to committ.  They attacked no one.  That is prejudice.

Paragon choice – Shep tells the Quarians the geth will come back online and destroy them. That is a fact. And your claim is false. The Quarians do not have to be told the Geth want peace to stand down.  In the Renegade option all Shep tells them is that they will die and Shep will watch them die.

You claimed EDI only has to worry because she has Reaper tech. That is a lie. Joker and EDI make it clear in the scenes I mentioned that EDI has to lie about being an AI period. She has to pretend not to be an AI. If it was just about Reaper tech, EDI or Joker could have lived and said EDI was his personal AI. No store clerk would know she has Reaper tech. Instead they lie and say she is a mech or VI. Why because AIs are discriminated against.

Modifié par remydat, 17 juin 2013 - 03:22 .

[KaiserShep]

remydat wrote...

Kasier,

Legion says with reaper code they would be FULLY EVOLVED AI which translates to them being more alive if you will. Without Reaper Code, they need to be networked with each other in order to be alive. The big drawback is that if you kill enough programs the rest of the Geth become dumber.

With Reaper code, they are alive even if they aren't networked together. They still network to share data but their lives are not dependent on being networked.

I understand that (and argued the same in this very thread), but it seemed silly to me that Legion would word it the way he did, but I guess that goes back to the Legion characterization thread and how he allegedly betrays it. 

[remydat]

It is probably just down to lazy writing in terms of the use of the world life. However, prior to ME3, Legion and the Geth could believe the fantasy that they could improve themselves via building the megastructure and basically have the Geth all cluster together in one massive server. However, the Quarians make it perfectly clear that doing so is a major risk because if someone succeeds in destroying it not only will all those Geth die but any Geth left alive will become dumber as well.

The Reaper code is the only immediate solution to this problem. The Geth would have to be ridiculously stupid to refuse it. You don't watch a bunch of your people get annihilated because they chose to be Networked and clustered together only to continue to rely on that type of structure for survival if there is another way.  It is not a betrayal when you change your mind because of new circumstances.  People don't hold the same opinions for eternity especially not after watching so many of their people die because of a particular opinion.

Modifié par remydat, 17 juin 2013 - 04:00 .

[Erez Kristal]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

[
I know right? I love punching the ignorant Quarian Admiral in the gut!

He had it coming. i punch him everytime.

anyone want to sum up the progress we have made through this thread?

Anyone was managed to get convinced the other way around? :-)

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

I don't have to -- YOU already did it for me. "SInce the attack" = "Zero messages sent between now, and the invasion." You yourself provided my proof. It means that "Since the attack" there was no contact with Legion. Zero messages sent by Legion in the timeframe spanning the quarian attack, and right now. YOU provided my evidence. The problem was that you were streatching "Since the attack" into something it was not. I means that there was No communication what-so-ever in that timeframe. The mystery was that you warped the words with your headcannon.

But that is not what Tali says.  Shep asks if Tali knows where Legion is now.  Tali says no but says she spoke to him.  The dialogue wheel saying AND SINCE THE ATTACK indicates that Tali speaking to him was after the attack.  The last message was SINCE THE ATTACK.  The Geth were having trouble reaching consensus on whether to ally with the Reapers who only made the offer SINCE THE ATTACK.  That is the only thing they could be having trouble reaching consensus on because Tali already told you the Quarians voted against negotiation so the Geth would have no reason to be discussing anything else.

Shep - Any idea where Legion is now?
Tali - No, in our last message he told me the Geth were having trouble reaching consensus.
Shep - And then nothing?
Tali - Maybe it was fighting the reaper takeover or maybe it didn't want to give intell to an enemy.

Yes it IS. You just keep streatching the timeframe beyond the actual limits.
When Shepard asks, Tali revelas that she has not had any contact with Legion in-between the timeframe of now, and Since the attack. No contact with Legion between these two points. That IS what Tali says. She says that she was unable to get into any form of contact with Legion after the quarians attacked. She even states that she could have warrned him about the attack but never did, indicating her last confirmed contact was prior to the quarian invasion. Meaning SINCE THE ATTACK, there was nothing -- no word following the quarian invasion.
Also, in that conversation, I see Nothing supporting you're claim of the message being post-invasion. "Since the attack" means - "anything between now and the attack." Tali says "NO."  And now, the clincher -- She states that the last mesage she had was about the consensis, and that she passed up the chance to warn Legion about the quarians war plans in that. Meaning that at the time of the last message, the quarians hadn't attacked yet. She had a chance to warn Legion about the invasion in their last message but did not. Meaning their last contact was diffinitively pre-war.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 juin 2013 - 07:55 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

When did Legion ever admit to the geth haveing any form of emotion? Legion himself even says that applying organic morality to an alien race like the geth is racist. Yet you keep doing it.
Also, Legion is an isolated system -- meaning that, being a completely self-contained set of programs, he would not have been affected by the loss of intelligence caused by the megastructure attack.
And again, you seem to keep ignoring the fact that since all life is different, it is biased and racist to judge all life using your own. Legion spicifically says that that form or judgement is benign anthromorphism - the Nth degree of racial judgment. He says that you must judge all life on it's own merits, and explistily avoid comparison to other races.

The discussion with Street Magic is he is denying the Geth are alive.  Stick to the topic.  This has nothing to do with emotions or judging living races differently.  This has to do with whether the Geth are alive.  You seem to think they are so not sure why you are responding and running on with other sh*t.  I don't care about this other sh*t.  Are the Geth alive or not is was the topic of this particular discussion. 

No -- he is denying that they are the same type of alive as us. Something Legion cooberates. Seems like you are the one that needs to stick to the topic.
He is stating that weather or not you can call the geth "alive" or just "aware" is always up for debate. It is never confirmed or denyed by Legion, who states that the geth are not like any form of living being since they are "purely software."
Also, if you think that, you obvously never read a single post I put up. Which actually makes sence given the headcannon you use. If you read my posts, you would know that I consider the geth as much a living being as the quarians. That is my personal belief. However, I can understand and respect the choices of others to not see them as living beings, because that is something that even Legion himself is dependent on one's interpertation of life.
And you can talk, considering how often you try to derail a topic.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Kasier,

Legion says with reaper code they would be FULLY EVOLVED AI which translates to them being more alive if you will. Without Reaper Code, they need to be networked with each other in order to be alive. The big drawback is that if you kill enough programs the rest of the Geth become dumber.

With Reaper code, they are alive even if they aren't networked together. They still network to share data but their lives are not dependent on being networked.

So in short, currently the Geth are networked life and with the reaper code they become individual life.  Both are still life.  It's just that some organics in the game don't seem to consider networked life as real life.

Legion states that the geth are no more then simple V.I.s. Even the Codex "Geth:Technology" advocates this. Also, the problem last time was that they became segregated when the Megastructure was attacked.

Also, I was under the impression you thought that geth were alive regardless of being networked? Otherwise, that would mean you think that a seperate geth would not be a living being without being in a network and thus, not worth as much individually as another organic. Is that what you actually think?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

There is no evidence the Geth scanned these ships and determined they were diplomatic. You are using head canon. The fact they have this tech is not proof that they used this tech and confirmed these ships came in peace. For all we know they used this tech and found out the organics were lying and that is why they blew them up. Either scenario is possible because the game never says anything about this. Neither of us have proof of what the Geth thought. That is the point.

You missed my point on the potawatomi. At one point, I thought you lived in Iowa and you mentioned the Fox River so I assumed you meant Fox River Iowa. If so a large majority of the Potawatomi were moved west in the 1830s so that is not their ancestral home. If you meant Fox River Wisconsin then your family would have been one of the lucky few who managed to remain as again most were forced to move west. And no one claimed anyone was banned from living there. Once again, the OP wants the Geth to abandon Rannoch which is what I disagreed. Europeans are not abandoning America and giving it back to Native Americans. They are SHARING. I have no problem with SHARING land.  The OP does.

The Geth are guilty. They are just not equally guilty IMO. The people more guilty are the people who started it. If two groups commit similar crimes and I am forced to choose between the two, I choose based on who started it.

The Geth have servers on Rannoch. This is confirmed in the game. They have bases on Rannoch. This is confirmed in the game. The Geth hold Rannoch until such time as they see fit to give it back to the Quarians or they are exterminated.

The Geth can die if you kill them and they have no backups. This is proven by the megastructure attack. And you assume no new Geth were created since the MW. That is never stated in the game. The Quarians would have no reason to create more Geth than can fit in mobile platforms or on server hardware yet we know Legion says they don’t have enough mobile platforms or server hardware to store all the Geth. So presumably the Geth have created new programs since the MW.

The Quarians attacked the Geth because they prejudged them. They prejudged the Geth guilty for a crime the Geth had yet to committ.  They attacked no one.  That is prejudice.

Paragon choice – Shep tells the Quarians the geth will come back online and destroy them. That is a fact. And your claim is false. The Quarians do not have to be told the Geth want peace to stand down.  In the Renegade option all Shep tells them is that they will die and Shep will watch them die.

You claimed EDI only has to worry because she has Reaper tech. That is a lie. Joker and EDI make it clear in the scenes I mentioned that EDI has to lie about being an AI period. She has to pretend not to be an AI. If it was just about Reaper tech, EDI or Joker could have lived and said EDI was his personal AI. No store clerk would know she has Reaper tech. Instead they lie and say she is a mech or VI. Why because AIs are discriminated against.

[/b]You do realize that, since the geth see through scanning to make a hyper-accurate ladar map of their space, that, if the geth didn't scan at all, they would never have picked up the diplomatic ships in the frist place? If they "didn't scan," how the hell did they lock on to the ships to shoot them down, or even realize when the ships crossed into the border of geth space? Sorry, but once again, YOU the one using headcannon. The evidence is the geth finding and shooting the ships in the first place, because if they weren't scanning, then they would never have picked up the ships or their transmissions. You have to be scanning to find transmissions. EDI proves this in ME3. According to Tali, this tech is how the geth see. They use it passively 24/7 -- they are always scanning, because the sensor data is how they see things.
So, once again, I've provided proof of why the geth could never have made any mistake or misunderstanding, and you have provided zero evidence to why they could. Also, AGAIN, the organics own records of it prove that the Council didn't send any such thing -- the envoys were strictly peaceful. My point is that there is proven evidence that the geth were 100% capable of determining this, and actually had no choice but to do so, because it's how the geth see.

No. You missed the point in general. Again. Once again, the very first time you met me on the "Great Debate" form, I told you I lived near Elkhorn, Wisconsin. My dad's great-uncle and his fellows stayed intigrated into modern sociaty and kept their lands -- They still have their old religions, but they are also members of modern sociaty.
Also, AGAIN, isn't that what the geth are already doing by building a Megastructure around the system's star? Why build that if you consider Rannoch you're home? You would just build structures and servers across the planet's surface -- you wouldn't bother with making a dyson sphere. The difference between the two is that, unlike the native and colonial Americans, this is NOT a case of "both have an equal need" - as, unlike the colonials, the geth have absolutly zero physical, and according to Legion, cultural need of Rannoch, and do not even consider Rannoch theirs to begin with. Contrary to what you keep trying to claim, the geth situation is different because the geth have zero need of Rannoch. As proven by the Heretics, and by the Megastructure, the geth are capable of surviving with nothing but a star, or solar/cosmic radiation. They don't need a world, and according to Legion, don't believe in the concept of a homeworld and thus have zero cultural attachement to it. In other words -- there is no reason for them to keep Rannoch, as they don't need it, don't have any attachment to the concept of a "homeworld," and still see/recgonize Rannoch as a quarian world, and not a geth world.

NO - They are EQUALLY GUILTY. They share EQUAL FAULT in how things played out. Nither side has a "high ground." It all comes down to personal prefrence -- who you resonate more with, because there IS NO SUCH THING as a "more correct side." BOTH started this conflict. The quarians caset a stone, and the geth threw back a boulder. One side reacted on what they knew of the limitations they gave their creations, and the other reaced with an overzelous threat projection. One side starting something and one side being overblown in their war are equal faults. Quarians jumped the gun against a race in which every member was capable of being a killer, and the geth slaughtered millions that were unwilling or unable to fight.
Sorry -- quarians may have chose to attack the geth, but the geth chose to be heartless killers in their responce by butchering people that had absolutly nothing to do with their governemets choice. BOTH SIDES are at EQUAL FAULT for the Morning War -- one for starting it, and the other for the massive death toll in innocent lives.

Which is never going to happen. If the geth were going to give Rannoch back, they wouldn't have set up shop at all, would they? And again, Legion states that Rannoch is the quarian's world, not the geth -- he states that most geth live in orbital stations. You are confusing hardware for software geth programs. And also, please tell me one thing that was built on Rannoch that could not have been built anywhere else? Tell me one thing that could not exist anywhere else but that spicific world for the geth.

Completely contridicted by Legion's statement on the Normandy about modern geth, and how ALL GETH have back-ups viw wireless upload. ALL GETH connected to the consensis. The only exception is in the case of hard-routed programs, like ones installed to manage server clusters. That statement of yours may have been true of the Morning War-period geth, but not of modern geth.
Also, LoL, what? Did you miss the part where Legion said that those programs died because they were physically installed and hardwired into the megastructure? As in, hard-routed into that system? YES there were back-ups, but they were all installed into the same framework -- the geth didn't have enough spare hardware to transfer the programs to.
Also, In the geth Server, Legion says the memories witnesses are Shepard's interpertation of the geth in the server -- meaning that every cluster of geth programs in the server stands for a group that was there in the Morning War. And there are enough programs to fill at least twenty or so Geth Primes, and each holds several thousand programs, meaning that just from that server alone, there were at least 60 - 80 thousand programs that are Morning War or Pre-Morning War.
Also, the geth kept a constant number in the Morning War. Meaning that they kept replenishing during the conlflict. This also means that once the war stopped, there was no reason to keep making new programs. Find me one source that says the geth kept making programs throughout their 300 years. Why bother when they can just improve their internetworking? And since memories are shared, any geth "killed" is ressurected through archived memory and neural patterns.

WRONG. They judged them based on they physical limitations the quarians themselves gave them. You're statement is equivilant to stating "it's prejudiced to assume a gun will fire a bullet after being loaded." Pulling the trigger will tell any sane man otherwise. When the geth did not stop to discriminate between civilian and millitant, that was bisacally validating everything the quarians assumed would happen -- the geth didn't stop to spare anyone. Geth judged the quarians based on what they saw the government do, and believed that all quarians would follow suit. Prejudice is basing actions on assumptions - which is NOT what either side did. They're conclusions came from the few facts they knew about eachother. These also do not have ANY of the critera of prejudice, as they do not involve judgements made on race, class, creed, age, religion, or birthplace. It's based on an evaluation of what they already did, or in the geth's case, what they were hardwired to do. Which does NOT fit into the critera of prejudice.

Paragon Choice -- and goes on to state that the geth diffinitively do not wish to continue the war. THAT is a fact - one that you convinently left out --- AGAIN.
And AGAIN WRONG - in the Renegade option, Shepard states that the quarians will make the geth kill them - indicating that if they keep firing, the geth will return it all. So they stop. So, NO, the quarians DO need to be told the geth are only returning what is being given to them to stop. If they think the geth are going to keep shooting no matter what, they will to, regardless of if they are stronger.

NO IT IS NOT. It is the truth.. Because like you yourself stated, no one ever mentions Reaper Tech -- because it is a sensitive and very risky subject to bring up. I mean, do you think Javik is aware that EDI is Reaper-Tech? I doubt it -- him of all people would be ripping the A.I. core to shreads if he knew. In the scenes yoiu mentioned, you're claim is Completely and utterly FALSE, because Joker makes it perfectly clear in the Purgatory bar that if they knew EDI was a Reaper-Based A.I. they would kill her. And AGAIN, his "Personal A.I." would mean Alliance coming in and putting more restrictions on her and examiming her more thuroghlly because of her Cerberus Origins. In which, in-depth examination would reveal the Reaper-Tech. Leading to her death, Lying about her being an A.I. is a DIRECT RESULT of working to conceal her origins as a Reaper-based construct. Once again, you made a [b]false claim to try and bring in a topic that has zero bearing on this form.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 juin 2013 - 08:58 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...
No -- he is denying that they are the same type of alive as us. Something Legion cooberates. Seems like you are the one that needs to stick to the topic.
He is stating that weather or not you can call the geth "alive" or just "aware" is always up for debate. It is never confirmed or denyed by Legion, who states that the geth are not like any form of living being since they are "purely software."
Also, if you think that, you obvously never read a single post I put up. Which actually makes sence given the headcannon you use. If you read my posts, you would know that I consider the geth as much a living being as the quarians. That is my personal belief. However, I can understand and respect the choices of others to not see them as living beings, because that is something that even Legion himself is dependent on one's interpertation of life.
And you can talk, considering how often you try to derail a topic.

No he said they are not living.  I don't know why you always try and tell me what other people said to me directly.  

StreetMagic wrote...

Geth didn't respond like living beings at all. They have self-preservation routines. Living beings experience more psychological/physical suffering beyond mere preservation instincts. There's a fvckton of pain involved when humans finally decide to revolt against something. It's something none of the AI in the ME universe have grasped. Even the apex AI race (Reapers) are so retarded that they think they're "ascending" and storing organics by hunting them down and grinding them into paste. They think they're doing everyone a service, and it's because they don't understand the concept of pain. It's just machine logic. Not the thoughts of a living being. They don't know any better. Without pain, there is no life.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Yes it IS. You just keep streatching the timeframe beyond the actual limits.
When Shepard asks, Tali revelas that she has not had any contact with Legion in-between the timeframe of now, and Since the attack. No contact with Legion between these two points. That IS what Tali says. She says that she was unable to get into any form of contact with Legion after the quarians attacked. She even states that she could have warrned him about the attack but never did, indicating her last confirmed contact was prior to the quarian invasion. Meaning SINCE THE ATTACK, there was nothing -- no word following the quarian invasion.
Also, in that conversation, I see Nothing supporting you're claim of the message being post-invasion. "Since the attack" means - "anything between now and the attack." Tali says "NO."  And now, the clincher -- She states that the last mesage she had was about the consensis, and that she passed up the chance to warn Legion about the quarians war plans in that. Meaning that at the time of the last message, the quarians hadn't attacked yet. She had a chance to warn Legion about the invasion in their last message but did not. Meaning their last contact was diffinitively pre-war.

You kept claiming that Legion cut off contact before the Quarians decided on war.  This conversation makes it clear Tali could communicate with Legion prior to the decision to go to war.  That is why Tali felt guilty about not warning Legion and that is why she put forward a proposal for negotiation.  Because despite heading back to Geth space, Tali was in contact with Legion.