1071 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir DeLoria]

I was so glad, when I finally exterminated the Geth. They've been nothing but a nuisance ever since ME 1. I really don't get, how anyone could choose those damn things over the Quarians, Legion is doomed either way.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Legion states that the geth are no more then simple V.I.s. Even the Codex "Geth:Technology" advocates this. Also, the problem last time was that they became segregated when the Megastructure was attacked.

Also, I was under the impression you thought that geth were alive regardless of being networked? Otherwise, that would mean you think that a seperate geth would not be a living being without being in a network and thus, not worth as much individually as another organic. Is that what you actually think?

A single program is a VI.  When enough programs are networked it forms life.  I have never disputed this.  And what do you mean by a separate geth?  A separate mobile platform has enough programs (around 100) to form life although that life is dumber than a mobile platform with 1183 programs.  A single geth program is akin to a collection of brain cells.  You destroy enough brain cells and you destroy that person. 
 

[Anthadlas]

Straight from wikipedia

Life is considered a characteristic of organisms that exhibit all or most of the following characteristics or traits:[29][31][32]

• Homeostasis:
  Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state;
  for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce
  temperature.
• Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells — the basic units of life.
• Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
• Growth:
  Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing
  organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply
  accumulating matter.
• Adaptation: The ability to change over time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity, diet, and external factors.
• Response to stimuli:
  A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular
  organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the
  senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by
  motion; for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism), and chemotaxis.
• Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.

1. Geth do not have to regulate their internal environment, And when they are outside of mobile platforms technically don't even have bodies.

2. Geth are not constructed using cells, they are constructed from atoms and particles

3. They do not metabolise energy into new cellular components or decompose

4. Geth are not capable of growing or increasing their size or replacing out parts without introducing completed outside matter

5. Geth are not able to adpat to their environments over time, they remain static unless they deliberately alter themselves

6. This is the only point the geth share with life, that they are able to react to outside stimulus.

7. Geth programs are not capable of reproduction.

Therefore Geth are not alive, They may be self aware and conscious but they aren't alive.

Modifié par Wraith 02, 18 juin 2013 - 03:51 .

[Phatose]

If anything can be self-aware and conscious but not alive, then "alive" is an utterly useless term.

[remydat]

Silver,

We have no evidence what they learned from the scan.  That is the point.  They could have learned the organics came in peace, they could have learned the organics did not come in peace, or they simply could have spotted the ship and destroyed it without bothering to try and listen in and figure out why they were there.  We simply do not know because no Geth ever mentions this. 

Oh, I thought you said Iowa.  Look, let me make this simple.  If the Quarians want to share Rannoch, I have no problem with that.  It is why I choose peace.  If the Quarians or anyone else wants the Geth to just give them Rannoch and leave the Perseus Veil then no that is bullsh*t.  If the Quarians wanted their homeworld for themselves they should have never created the Geth.  They did, they f**ked up and tough sh*t, they got to live with the consequences.

And you are incorrect.  If two people commit crimes, the law can judge one more guilty.  If two people commit murder then one can be guilty of 1st degree murder and the other guilty of manslaughter.   There are 3 main reasons the Quarians are more guilty.  First, they attacked first.  Second, they attacked a group that had done them no harm.  Third, they failed to teach the Geth about morals.  The Quarians are guilty for their crimes and they are partly guilty for the Geth’s crimes because they were the ones that created them and they failed in their responsibility to teach them anything other than to exterminate their enemy.  The Geth are guilty for their crimes and their crimes alone.  And yes it was prejudice.

And not sure you point, the Geth can die.  Period.  They are tough to kill but they can die.  They do not have enough mobile platforms and they do not have enough server hardware.  And there is no evidence they stopped making new programs and there is no evidence they did.  You and I are free to believe whatever we want on the subject so believe what you want Silver.

So what changed that the Quarians suddenly trust the Geth don’t want to kill them?  Shep told them before the Geth aren’t evil machines so it can’t be because Shep said so.  Sorry in both options they find out they can’t win.  There is no way they can kill all the Geth before the Geth return to full strength.  No f**king way.  So they give up not because they trust the Geth but because they can’t win anymore and so now all of a sudden they are willing to hope and have faith that the Geth will stand down.  They have no proof of this.  None.
Silver, can an unshackled AI live free in organic space or would they be subject to rules that organics are not subject to.  Yes or no?  I just want a simple answer. 

Modifié par remydat, 18 juin 2013 - 04:25 .

[remydat]

Wraith 02

Lol, this is an organic definition of life that contemplates life from the perspective of an organic and only contemplates life as being possible if you are organic. Hence why the definition refers to ORGANISMS.

With this logic, a synthetic can define life as consisting of heavy metals and programs and in so doing say organics are not alive. 

You can't be serious?  This is utter non-sense and exposes the inherent bias in organic beings to view life through the prism of their own particular form of life.

Modifié par remydat, 18 juin 2013 - 04:32 .

[Sir DeLoria]

He's right, organic life is natural true life, synthetic life is by the laws of nature no form of life.

[CronoDragoon]

Necanor wrote...

He's right, organic life is natural true life, synthetic life is by the laws of nature no form of life.

By the laws of nature, anyone who receives a transplant to stay alive is no longer alive. The laws of nature don't matter to humans, why should it matter concerning synthetics?

[remydat]

Necanor wrote...

He's right, organic life is natural true life, synthetic life is by the laws of nature no form of life.

This is saying a whole lot of nothing.  Laws of nature by implication implies organic life so all you are saying is that synthetic life is not organic life.  Well duh, we already knew that.  

Instead of quoting me an organic definition of life that wasted a bunch of text all Wraith had to say is that in his opinion life can only be organic and move on because that is essentially all he did by providing an organic definition of life. 

[Sir DeLoria]

My point is, that life can only be organic.

[Phatose]

Amazing. A definition of life from organics on a planet with only organic life is set up to exclude everything that isn't organic.

It's thus utterly and completely useless - systematically biased into complete irrelevance.

[remydat]

Necanor wrote...

My point is, that life can only be organic.

And my point is see how easy it is to say that in 10 words or less.  I don't need a wall of text for a pretty simple position.

And now knowing that the organic thinks life can only be organic, what more is there to debate?

[Jorji Costava]

"Life" is a deeply misleading term to use here, and I think it was a mistake for the writers to use it the way they did. Cells in your body that carry your genetic code are being replaced all the time, but that isn't mass murder. So "life" isn't necessarily the magic category it's made out to be.

The relevant concept is "personhood," where a person is a being that is deserving of moral consideration. What's required for personhood? Arguably, that includes characteristics like consciousness, the ability to feel pleasure/pain, the ability to reason, communicate, form life plans, etc. If a wholly synthetic being has these qualities, it's a person; there's nothing special about realizing them through organic means.

There's the further question of whether or not a synthetic person is really possible, but in the context of a fictional universe, I think we need to grant that such things are possible in that world. For instance, no one argues that you should act with total disregard toward characters like Morrigan because witches and magic aren't real.

EDIT: Fixed grammar

Modifié par osbornep, 18 juin 2013 - 05:00 .

[KaiserShep]

osbornep wrote...
The relevant concept is "personhood," where a person is a being that is deserving of moral consideration. What's required for personhood? Arguably, that includes characteristics like consciousness, the ability to feel pleasure/pain, the ability to reason, communicate, form life plans, etc. If a wholly synthetic being has these qualities, it's a person; there's nothing special about realizing them through organic means.

And EDI is a prime example. She has a distinct pesonality, attachments and preferences, and clearly shows the capacity for abstract thought. The geth, or at least in the case of Legion, can actually express opinion. So even if you want to argue biology or philosophical concepts, their capacity for completely independent thought does make them people. 

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

And now knowing that the organic thinks life can only be organic, what more is there to debate?

By extension, isn't this also a valid dismissal of the assessment of sentience? Obviously sentient beings will assign greater rights to those with sentience.

[remydat]

osbornep wrote...

"Life" is a deeply misleading term to use here, and I think it was a mistake for the writers to use it the way they did. Cells in your body that carry your genetic code are being replaced all the time, but that isn't mass murder. So "life" isn't necessarily the magic category it's made out to be.

The relevant concept is "personhood," where a person is a being that is deserving of moral consideration. What's required for personhood? Arguably, that includes characteristics like consciousness, the ability to feel pleasure/pain, the ability to reason, communicate, form life plans, etc. If a wholly synthetic being has these qualities, it's a person; there's nothing special about realizing them through organic means.

There's the further question of whether or not a synthetic person is really possible, but in the context of a fictional universe, I think we need to grant that such things are possible in that world. For instance, no one argues that you should act with total disregard toward characters like Morrigan because witches and magic aren't real.

EDIT: Fixed grammar

Yes this is a fair point and one I was trying to make when I said the the individual programs are just VI but when enough are networked toegether they represent life.  But your use of the term personhood is perhaps more apt.

The only complication with the Geth is that their personhood is fluid because they can freely transfer themselves.  So for example if all the Geth were networked as part of a single network, they would in effect be a single personhood.  However, the minute they decide to segregate themselves into mobile platforms or separete servers they are in effect creating separate persons because those clusters of programs will go off and will experience life differently.

To me this is what Legion ultimately did when he said he most go to them.  His 1183 individual programs represented a person because they went out and experienced life together.  They periodically shared that information the larger consensus but their individual experiences and the individualness those experiences created in the person experience them was retained so long as Legion remained 1183 programs grouped together.

However, with the Reaper Code, copying it was insufficent so Legion had to destroy/disseminate his personhood in order to properly disseminate that experience to the rest of the Geth in a manner that would not allow those 1183 programs to ever being reconstitued with the memories and experiences of the original Legion. 

In a way Shep is forced to do the same thing in control ie destroy his personhood in order for it to be properly disseminated to the Reapers and infused with his personality and beliefs.

[S.A.K]

Geth aren't alive in my game:whistle:

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

In a way Shep is forced to do the same thing in control ie destroy his personhood in order for it to be properly disseminated to the Reapers and infused with his personality and beliefs.

I see Synthesis as having an even stronger parallel to Legion's sacrifice. But yeah given certain assumptions about precisely how the Catalyst and Reapers are connected I could see this.

[Phatose]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...

And now knowing that the organic thinks life can only be organic, what more is there to debate?

By extension, isn't this also a valid dismissal of the assessment of sentience? Obviously sentient beings will assign greater rights to those with sentience.

The key difference is that there are non-organics quite clearly opposed to the idea that non-orgnaics do not have value to the extent that destroying non-organics is acceptable.  Disagreeing so vehemently, in fact, that they start shooting. 

As of yet, non-sentients have never disagreed at all, nor are they even capable of doing so.  If the rocks and trees care to express an opinion on the matter, we'll need to revisit this matter.  Seeing as how they're incapable of doing so, I don't anticipate that will be a problem.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

By extension, isn't this also a valid dismissal of the assessment of sentience? Obviously sentient beings will assign greater rights to those with sentience.

Oh I don't disagree.  In the strictest definition of the word we are inherently biased against all forms of non-sentient life.  There is no way for me to enjoy fried chicken and steak if not for the fact I view chickens and cows as inferior in some way.  In that respect, I am no different than an organic who thinks synthetic life is inferior.

The diffference being though akin to what Mordin said.  Is the species capable of calculus?  If magically all the cows and chickens in the world showed evidence they could communicate with me intelligently and I ignored that so I could continue to enjoy fried chicken and steak then if they eventually sought my death I may try to kill them to prevent being killed but I have no moral high ground to take.  What I did was morally reprehensible period and if they succeed in killing me then that is a just punishment for my considering myself superior to them.

The point in all this being, it matters little my views on another form of life.  What matters is how they view themselves and whether they can reason with me in a manner that allows me to understand those views.  Judged from the Catalyst's perspective he has every reason to consider organics inferior to the Reapers.  Judged from an organic perspective, what he thinks is irrelevant.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I see Synthesis as having an even stronger parallel to Legion's sacrifice. But yeah given certain assumptions about precisely how the Catalyst and Reapers are connected I could see this.

I think the distinction I would make with synthesis is I believe Shep is transmitting energy or essence but not necessarily personality.  However, with control, I think Shep is transmitting his personality but not his soul.  So a being in synthesis is not really infused with Shep's personality but the Reaper God is and as that Reaper God represents the collective intelligence of the Reapers it stands to reason the Reapers get some of that personality as well.

Modifié par remydat, 18 juin 2013 - 05:46 .

[CronoDragoon]

Phatose wrote...

As of yet, non-sentients have never disagreed at all, nor are they even capable of doing so.  If the rocks and trees care to express an opinion on the matter, we'll need to revisit this matter.  Seeing as how they're incapable of doing so, I don't anticipate that will be a problem.

Right, but why is the capability to express an opinion the deciding factor between the ability to kill something and the prohibition from doing so? It seems like the same sort of bias that organics use against synthetics.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

I think the distinction I would make with synthesis is I believe Shep is transmitting energy or essence but not necessarily personality.  However, with control, I think Shep is transmitting his personality but not his soul.  So a being in synthesis is not really infused with Shep's personality but the Reaper God is and as that Reaper God represents the collective intelligence of the Reapers it stands to reason the Reapers get some of that personality as well.

But it isn't Legion's personality that is being transmitted to other geth; rather it's his mode of being. In that sense I see the parallel with Synthesis insofar as it's using the specific state of being of an individual - Shepard being half-synthetic half-organic - as a blueprint for changing other states of being.

[Phatose]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Phatose wrote...

As of yet, non-sentients have never disagreed at all, nor are they even capable of doing so.  If the rocks and trees care to express an opinion on the matter, we'll need to revisit this matter.  Seeing as how they're incapable of doing so, I don't anticipate that will be a problem.

Right, but why is the capability to express an opinion the deciding factor between the ability to kill something and the prohibition from doing so? It seems like the same sort of bias that organics use against synthetics.

Expressing an opinion in and of itself is not.  It's simply a form of behavior which spells out fairly clearly there is a mind there.  And behavior is all we really have to go on.  Trees and rocks do not act as if they have a mind.

It's the same rationale behind the Turing test, and why we treat corpses differently then living people.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...
But it isn't Legion's personality that is being transmitted to other geth; rather it's his mode of being. In that sense I see the parallel with Synthesis insofar as it's using the specific state of being of an individual - Shepard being half-synthetic half-organic - as a blueprint for changing other states of being.

Ah from that perspective I see your point.  I always interpreted that scene as more than just him transmitting the reaper code ie mode of being but also him transmitting his thoughts and personality.  Mainly because the Geth said they will honor Legions wishes.  I suppose he could have conveyed his wishes as he was uploading the code but I always felt his wishes were conveyed because he shared his thoughts and personality with them when he disseminated himself to the rest of the Geth. 

Hence why the Geth are more Legion like than Geth VI like in being so helpful.  I mean dudes come running up to Raan like yo come stay with us and what farmland have you picked out?  To me, I would have expected a colder more businesslike communication more akin to Geth VI.

But there is no way to prove it one way or the other so it is open to interpretation.

Modifié par remydat, 18 juin 2013 - 06:25 .