1071 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Phatose wrote...

Expressing an opinion in and of itself is not.  It's simply a form of behavior which spells out fairly clearly there is a mind there.  And behavior is all we really have to go on.  Trees and rocks do not act as if they have a mind.

It's the same rationale behind the Turing test, and why we treat corpses differently then living people.

Yeah exactly.  The ability of something to articulate that it should be treated equally to you is indicated that it is more than just a tool or food.

[Anthadlas]

remydat wrote...

Necanor wrote...

He's right, organic life is natural true life, synthetic life is by the laws of nature no form of life.

This is saying a whole lot of nothing.  Laws of nature by implication implies organic life so all you are saying is that synthetic life is not organic life.  Well duh, we already knew that.  

Instead of quoting me an organic definition of life that wasted a bunch of text all Wraith had to say is that in his opinion life can only be organic and move on because that is essentially all he did by providing an organic definition of life. 

Didn't say it was my opinion so don't jump to conclusions.

It is simply a definition of what we consider to be life. So either geth aren't alive or we need to change the definition of the word life.

p.s, i don't know how you can waste text, I was unaware there was a shortage of it.

Modifié par Wraith 02, 18 juin 2013 - 06:38 .

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

Yeah exactly.  The ability of something to articulate that it should be treated equally to you is indicated that it is more than just a tool or food.

So why do we have animal abuse laws? Isn't "sentience" just a convenient excuse for exercising our will over dumber, less capable life forms when we find it beneficial? In other words, we don't form our policy based on sentience, but rather use sentience as a justification when we need to form policy that has other uses, such as the mass slaughter of chickens giving us enough food to feed a ginormous population.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 juin 2013 - 06:44 .

[Anthadlas]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...

Yeah exactly.  The ability of something to articulate that it should be treated equally to you is indicated that it is more than just a tool or food.

So why do we have animal abuse laws? Isn't "sentience" just a convenient excuse for exercising our will over dumber, less capable life forms when we find it beneficial? In other words, we don't form our policy based on sentience, but rather use sentience as a justification when we need to form policy that has other uses, such as the mass slaughter of chickens giving us enough food to feed a ginormous population.

Surely the ability to articulate the right to be treated equally means that microsoft sam is synthetic life.

Modifié par Wraith 02, 18 juin 2013 - 06:50 .

[essarr71]

Wraith 02 wrote...

1. Geth do not have to regulate their internal environment, And when
they are outside of mobile platforms technically don't even have bodies.

I imagine they do.  My computer has a cooling system and a number of fans.  It also has software that regulates it's performance from both itself and outside factors.  No reason to see why the Geth wouldn't have even more advanced forms of regulation on both fronts.

2. Geth are not constructed using cells, they are constructed from atoms and particles.

Everything is made from atoms or particles.  There are a number of distinct differences between plant and animal cells - in structure and function.  One can make an case that an individual program within a consenus make up the "cells" of the Geth. 

3. They do not metabolise energy into new cellular components or decompose.

They require energy.  If a platform is denied that energy it fails to function and will, eventually, break down.  Just because Geth do not require physical food and break down much slower doesn't mean they fail to fit into this criteria.

4. Geth are not capable of growing or increasing their size or replacing out parts without introducing completed outside matter.

A hermit crab leaves it's shell to find a new one since it is unable to make one itself.  What's different between that and a Geth program finding a bigger platform?

5. Geth are not able to adpat to their environments over time, they remain static unless they deliberately alter themselves

The point being that they're able to adapt.  All life on Earth would remain static without a change in environment.  The the Geth can pick and choose their evolution isn't proof of anything except the ability to self-evolve.

7. Geth programs are not capable of reproduction.

Copy/paste.  Reproduction is wildly different just on this planet.  It's insanely varied in the MEU.  The fact is the Geth CAN reproduce. 

[Phatose]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...

Yeah exactly.  The ability of something to articulate that it should be treated equally to you is indicated that it is more than just a tool or food.

So why do we have animal abuse laws? Isn't "sentience" just a convenient excuse for exercising our will over dumber, less capable life forms when we find it beneficial? In other words, we don't form our policy based on sentience, but rather use sentience as a justification when we need to form policy that has other uses, such as the mass slaughter of chickens giving us enough food to feed a ginormous population.

Thinking is core to human existence - everything else is dispensible.  Putting value on thinking is thus intrinsic to the human condition.  It's certainly anthrocentrism, but we're rather short on other ways to evaluate the universe.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

So why do we have animal abuse laws? Isn't "sentience" just a convenient excuse for exercising our will over dumber, less capable life forms when we find it beneficial? In other words, we don't form our policy based on sentience, but rather use sentience as a justification when we need to form policy that has other uses, such as the mass slaughter of chickens giving us enough food to feed a ginormous population.

Because some people feel more guilty than others.  I would argue though Man did not first start to slaughter animals because they were inferior.  We did it because we needed food.  In that respect we are no different than any other animal.  The only difference is we are plagued by a conscience whereas a Lion who kills a gazelle does not ponder the morality of such an act. 

So the irony is our sentience is what necessitates we make a distinction between sentient and non-sentient.  If we lacked it we could kill and eat to our heart's content without thinking about the consequences.  However, because we have it, we are plagued by questions of whether doing so is right and just and so we justify it being right and just by saying we have it and the animals we eat don't.

This is also what makes the organic synthetic question slightly different as neither needs the other as food well except in movies like the matrix where we are used as a fuel source.

Modifié par remydat, 18 juin 2013 - 06:59 .

[Anthadlas]

essarr71 wrote...

I imagine they do.  My computer has a cooling system and a number of fans.  It also has software that regulates it's performance from both itself and outside factors.  No reason to see why the Geth wouldn't have even more advanced forms of regulation on both fronts.

They require energy.  If a platform is denied that energy it fails to function and will, eventually, break down.  Just because Geth do not require physical food and break down much slower doesn't mean they fail to fit into this criteria.

A hermit crab leaves it's shell to find a new one since it is unable to make one itself.  What's different between that and a Geth program finding a bigger platform?

The point being that they're able to adapt.  All life on Earth would remain static without a change in environment.  The the Geth can pick and choose their evolution isn't proof of anything except the ability to self-evolve.

Copy/paste.  Reproduction is wildly different just on this planet.  It's insanely varied in the MEU.  The fact is the Geth CAN reproduce. 

A Hermit Crab finding a larger shell is not growth, It has to be a part of it's body that it grows itself. Otherwise i could put on a massive hat and claim that i grew it.

And evolution relies on the fact that the environment filters out good and bad genes, doing it yourself doesn't count.

Also Geth cannot copy their own programs, otherwise why would Legion be so concerned about geth programs being destroyed and lowering the Geths collective intelligence if they could just copy and paste constantly to make themselves smarter.

But all this is pointless, you cannot ask if a Geth is alive when we have no seperate definitions for organic and synthetic life. We only have Organic life and cannot compare the two as they are completely different.

So instead of asking if the geth are alive which is impossible to quantify, we need to ask are geth truely self aware?

Do they actually have true free will or are their decisions based on the programming code entered by the Quarians. Are they making the choices themselves or are they simply following programming that gives the illusion of free will?

[CronoDragoon]

Phatose wrote...
Thinking is core to human existence - everything else is dispensible.  Putting value on thinking is thus intrinsic to the human condition.  It's certainly anthrocentrism, but we're rather short on other ways to evaluate the universe.

I agree, I'm just pointing out that this equates to a similar type of "like me vs. Other" bias that is represented by designating organics as alive and synthetics as not alive.

[remydat]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Didn't say it was my opinion so don't jump to conclusions.

It is simply a definition of what we consider to be life. So either geth aren't alive or we need to change the definition of the word life.

p.s, i don't know how you can waste text, I was unaware there was a shortage of it.

It is a denifition that presumes the thing being discussed is potentialy organic.  Posting a lengthy definition of organic life when all you had to say is the Geth are not organic life is wasting text.  You could have conveyed that message much more concisely as Necanor later did when pressed.

[Phatose]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Do
they actually have true free will or are their decisions based on the
programming code entered by the Quarians. Are they making the choices
themselves or are they simply following programming that gives the
illusion of free will?

A dangerous question, that last one. And a false dichotomy - it's entirely possible their decisions are based on the code entered by the Quarians AND they have free will.

Modifié par Phatose, 18 juin 2013 - 07:06 .

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

Because some people feel more guilty than others.  I would argue though Man did not first start to slaughter animals because they were inferior.  We did it because we needed food.

Sure, but that is no longer a viable excuse, really. We have chicken farms not because we need chickens to survive, but because we like the taste of chicken. Why is that okay? Well, because they aren't sentient. Why does that matter? Well, because if they can't object then they aren't really thinking or don't have minds. Why does that matter? Well, because that makes them less like us and therefore okay to kill.

[CronoDragoon]

Phatose wrote...

A dangerous question, that last one. And a false dichotomy - it's entirely possible their decisions are based on the code entered by the Quarians AND they have free will.

How?

[remydat]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Surely the ability to articulate the right to be treated equally means that microsoft sam is synthetic life.

No because it is articulating something someone programmed it to say or repeating what we said.  It is clear that the Quarians never programmed the Geth to ponder questions of existence because when the Geth started to do so the Quarians attempted to exterminate them.

Modifié par remydat, 18 juin 2013 - 07:10 .

[Anthadlas]

remydat wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Didn't say it was my opinion so don't jump to conclusions.

It is simply a definition of what we consider to be life. So either geth aren't alive or we need to change the definition of the word life.

p.s, i don't know how you can waste text, I was unaware there was a shortage of it.

It is a denifition that presumes the thing being discussed is potentialy organic.  Posting a lengthy definition of organic life when all you had to say is the Geth are not organic life is wasting text.  You could have conveyed that message much more concisely as Necanor later did when pressed.

Of course it presumes that life is organic, as I have already said we have no definition of synthetic life so trying to debate if a synthetic is alive is more pointless than my apparant wasted text.

I was also under the impression that when you make a point it is a good idea to back it up with facts, sorry if you don't also do this, It is better to say;

The Geth are not organic life and here is why..

rather than

The Geth are not organic life.... probably

[remydat]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Of course it presumes that life is organic, as I have already said we have no definition of synthetic life so trying to debate if a synthetic is alive is more pointless than my apparant wasted text.

I was also under the impression that when you make a point it is a good idea to back it up with facts, sorry if you don't also do this, It is better to say;

The Geth are not organic life and here is why..

rather than

The Geth are not organic life.... probably

When a point is self evident then it does not need to be backed up with facts.  The Geth are not organic life does not need to be explained because everyone knows they are synthetic.

And no, we have no universally accepted definition of synthetic life but that does no preclude people from debating what the requirements of synthetic life are.  If we only debated things that everyone could agree on society would not develop as most things including the definition of organic life started out with people disagreeing.  Then via discussion and debate consensus emerges.

[essarr71]

Wraith 02 wrote...

A Hermit Crab finding a larger shell is not growth, It has to be a part of it's body that it grows itself. Otherwise i could put on a massive hat and claim that i grew it.

So you don't deny the fact that being able to adapt to a new environment - for whatever reason, be it protection from the elements or making one more attractive to the opposite sex or improving your own functionality - without your body creating it is possible.  Gotcha.

And evolution relies on the fact that the environment filters out good and bad genes, doing it yourself doesn't count.

Why not?  And technically, the Geth, say.. adding radiation shielding because they're working close to a star IS an environmental filter.  A Geth platform would find such a shield wasteful if it wasn't required.  Again.. the only difference here is the Geth are capable of doing it.  When human science allows for the manipulation of genetics for our own requirements, will we no longer qualify as life?

Also Geth cannot copy their own programs, otherwise why would Legion be so concerned about geth programs being destroyed and lowering the Geths collective intelligence if they could just copy and paste constantly to make themselves smarter.

If they were unable to reproduce how do they ever recover from programs being lost or, say, factions of their programs going rogue?  The Geth required space to live.. who can say how a synthetic race would determine the appropriate time to multiply.  The idea that a synthetic cannot reproduce is just a baseless and silly assumption.

But all this is pointless, you cannot ask if a Geth is alive when we have no seperate definitions for organic and synthetic life. We only have Organic life and cannot compare the two as they are completely different.

So instead of asking if the geth are alive which is impossible to quantify, we need to ask are geth truely self aware?

Do they actually have true free will or are their decisions based on the programming code entered by the Quarians. Are they making the choices themselves or are they simply following programming that gives the illusion of free will?

You can ask the exact same questions of organic life.  You FEEL like you make your decisions - but it could just be conditioning and chemical responses.  Some people like the color blue.  Others green.  Maybe it's a choice, or maybe our genetics gave us a predisposition for it.  The point is the umbrella for "life" isn't as firmly structured as you think.

[Anthadlas]

remydat wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Surely the ability to articulate the right to be treated equally means that microsoft sam is synthetic life.

No because it is articulating something someone programmed it to say or repeating what we said.  It is clear that the Quarians never programmed the Geth to ponder questions of existence because when the Geth started to do so the Quarians attempted to exterminate them.

No they programmed the Geth to be adapable, so it is possible the Geth are asking if they have a soul because they cannot truely understand the meaning of the word. Yet the Quarians over react and shoot them, It doesn't mean it wasn't just following Quarian programming code in an unexpected manner

[Anthadlas]

essarr71 wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

A Hermit Crab finding a larger shell is not growth, It has to be a part of it's body that it grows itself. Otherwise i could put on a massive hat and claim that i grew it.

So you don't deny the fact that being able to adapt to a new environment - for whatever reason, be it protection from the elements or making one more attractive to the opposite sex or improving your own functionality - without your body creating it is possible.  Gotcha.

And evolution relies on the fact that the environment filters out good and bad genes, doing it yourself doesn't count.

Why not?  And technically, the Geth, say.. adding radiation shielding because they're working close to a star IS an environmental filter.  A Geth platform would find such a shield wasteful if it wasn't required.  Again.. the only difference here is the Geth are capable of doing it.  When human science allows for the manipulation of genetics for our own requirements, will we no longer qualify as life?

Also Geth cannot copy their own programs, otherwise why would Legion be so concerned about geth programs being destroyed and lowering the Geths collective intelligence if they could just copy and paste constantly to make themselves smarter.

If they were unable to reproduce how do they ever recover from programs being lost or, say, factions of their programs going rogue?  The Geth required space to live.. who can say how a synthetic race would determine the appropriate time to multiply.  The idea that a synthetic cannot reproduce is just a baseless and silly assumption.

But all this is pointless, you cannot ask if a Geth is alive when we have no seperate definitions for organic and synthetic life. We only have Organic life and cannot compare the two as they are completely different.

So instead of asking if the geth are alive which is impossible to quantify, we need to ask are geth truely self aware?

Do they actually have true free will or are their decisions based on the programming code entered by the Quarians. Are they making the choices themselves or are they simply following programming that gives the illusion of free will?

You can ask the exact same questions of organic life.  You FEEL like you make your decisions - but it could just be conditioning and chemical responses.  Some people like the color blue.  Others green.  Maybe it's a choice, or maybe our genetics gave us a predisposition for it.  The point is the umbrella for "life" isn't as firmly structured as you think.

Exactly, so debating whether or not the get are alive is pointless considering we cannot even figure out our own existance.

Thank you for agreeing

Modifié par Wraith 02, 18 juin 2013 - 07:22 .

[remydat]

Wraith 02 wrote...

No they programmed the Geth to be adapable, so it is possible the Geth are asking if they have a soul because they cannot truely understand the meaning of the word. Yet the Quarians over react and shoot them, It doesn't mean it wasn't just following Quarian programming code in an unexpected manner

If they did not understand the meaning of the word, they could have ased what does a soul mean.  They did not ask that, they asked if they had one.

And I can use drugs and hormones to alter DNA and the chemical balance in a human body.  I can modify human behavior by giving a human more and more testosterone. 

So how do we operate outside our programming? The difference is we don't know all the ins and outs of our programming while the Geth do.  

[remydat]

Wraith 02 wrote...

What is you problem with me backing up a point with evidence? If you don't like it then don't read the damn thing instead of whining to me because you are too lazy to make your points thorough

You claim debating something that there is no consensus on is pointless when the very point of debating these things is to form a consensus while at the same time providing evidence for something that everyone already knows ie the Geth are not organic life.

That is not whining.  That is telling you your ideas of what is pointless and what is not seem reversed.  People debate things they do not agree on.  People generally don't bother debating things that 100% of people know is fact.  

Modifié par remydat, 18 juin 2013 - 07:28 .

[essarr71]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Exactly, so debating whether or not the get are alive is pointless considering we cannot even figure out our own existance.

If you say so.  I was just pointing out the flaws in your argument that the Geth weren't alive. 

Thank you for agreeing

HA.  Thanks for retreating from your position.

Modifié par essarr71, 18 juin 2013 - 07:25 .

[Phatose]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Phatose wrote...

A dangerous question, that last one. And a false dichotomy - it's entirely possible their decisions are based on the code entered by the Quarians AND they have free will.

How?

I'll point you to the works of Raymond Smullyan.  In particular, Is God a Taoist


God:
   I already told you you do. But that does not mean that determinism is incorrect.

Mortal:
   Well, are my acts determined by the laws of nature or aren't they?

God:
   The word determined here is subtly but
powerfully misleading and has contributed so much to the confusions of
the free will versus determinism controversies. Your acts are certainly
in accordance with the laws of nature, but to say they are determined by
the laws of nature creates a totally misleading psychological image
which is that your will could somehow be in conflict with the laws of
nature and that the latter is somehow more powerful than you, and could
"determine" your acts whether you liked it or not. But it is simply
impossible for your will to ever conflict with natural law. You and
natural law are really one and the same.

Mortal:
   What do you mean that I cannot conflict with
nature? Suppose I were to become very stubborn, and I determined not to
obey the laws of nature. What could stop me? If I became sufficiently
stubborn even you could not stop me!

God:
   You are absolutely right! I certainly could not
stop you. Nothing could stop you. But there is no need to stop you,
because you could not even start! As Goethe very beautifully expressed
it, "In trying to oppose Nature, we are, in the very process of doing
so, acting according to the laws of nature!" Don't you see that the
so-called "laws of nature" are nothing more than a description of how in
fact you and other beings do act? They are merely a description of how
you act, not a prescription of of how you should act, not a power or
force which compels or determines your acts. To be valid a law of nature
must take into account how in fact you do act, or, if you like, how you
choose to act.

[Anthadlas]

remydat wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

No they programmed the Geth to be adapable, so it is possible the Geth are asking if they have a soul because they cannot truely understand the meaning of the word. Yet the Quarians over react and shoot them, It doesn't mean it wasn't just following Quarian programming code in an unexpected manner

If they did not understand the meaning of the word, they could have ased what does a soul mean.  They did not ask that, they asked if they had one.

And I can use drugs and hormones to alter DNA and the chemical balance in a human body.  I can modify human behavior by giving a human more and more testosterone. 

So how do we operate outside our programming? The difference is we don't know all the ins and outs of our programming while the Geth do.  

Again, exactly the point I am making, we cannot try and figure out if the geth are alive when we don't even understand what it is that makes us alive

None of us knows if we are truely conscious or whether we are making decisions based on free will or organic factors already programmed into our brain. So trying to figure out if the same is happening to the Geth is impossible

[Anthadlas]

essarr71 wrote...

If you say so.  I was just pointing out the flaws in your argument that the Geth weren't alive. 

And i'm pointing out the many in yours that the geth are alive when we don't know what it means